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more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by verstelle@...

Well today I decided to do some experimenting with some different papers, I have been using parchment paper and pre-eching my boards in acid/hydrogen peroxide mix first to let them etch a little. well I found that the parchment paper was not picking up as much toner as regular paper. So I just cleaned a test board, printed a test page on my HP printer and ran it through the laminator 5 times and after it cooled I pulled the paper and none of the toner stuck to the board. I them pre-etched the board and again ran the board and artwork through the laminator 5 times and this time it stuck like cement to the board. The paper ripped off the toner and a little cleaning with soap and water all the paper was gone and nothing but toner. 


Now this is just plain printing paper nothing special. Plus now the toner is thick enough to etch with out having to print twice on the parchment paper and hoping the alignment is perfect on the second printing.   


So I tried it with artwork printed from Eagle Cad and left the traces at .01" and didn't do any touch up after it auto routed, like move close traces. It came out great all the toner transferred to the board and it etched out nicely no shorted traces. I did over etch it because I started etching it without putting any tape on the back side, I wanted to keep the one side full copper. So I pulled it out of the acid and cleaned it off and taped it, but in my haste I didn't get it sealed good and acid got under the tape and removed some of the back plane. So I removed the tape and just let the acid etch off the rest of the copper but the artwork side was done before the back finished. So my traces were thinner than it should have been but it stilled worked.


I'm so happy with how well the toner sticks to the boards now. So to sum it up, I clean the boards really good wipe them dry and then put them in acid mix just long enough for the copper to turn a darker color, maybe 15 seconds, remove from the acid rinse with water and dry. I then put it through my laminator 5 times with the artwork and after it cools the toner is stuck to the board like cement. I now just use regular printer paper nothing special. Because it is regular printing paper after a soak for a couple of minutes it comes right off, no hard scrubbing like when I use to use photo paper. 


If anyone is interested I can post some pictures I might even make a video. 

Bill N7OQ

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by Jeff Heiss

Great info.  One question - what temperature is the laminator?

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 7:09 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

 

Well today I decided to do some experimenting with some different papers, I have been using parchment paper and pre-eching my boards in acid/hydrogen peroxide mix first to let them etch a little. well I found that the parchment paper was not picking up as much toner as regular paper. So I just cleaned a test board, printed a test page on my HP printer and ran it through the laminator 5 times and after it cooled I pulled the paper and none of the toner stuck to the board. I them pre-etched the board and again ran the board and artwork through the laminator 5 times and this time it stuck like cement to the board. The paper ripped off the toner and a little cleaning with soap and water all the paper was gone and nothing but toner. 

 

Now this is just plain printing paper nothing special. Plus now the toner is thick enough to etch with out having to print twice on the parchment paper and hoping the alignment is perfect on the second printing.   

 

So I tried it with artwork printed from Eagle Cad and left the traces at .01" and didn't do any touch up after it auto routed, like move close traces. It came out great all the toner transferred to the board and it etched out nicely no shorted traces. I did over etch it because I started etching it without putting any tape on the back side, I wanted to keep the one side full copper. So I pulled it out of the acid and cleaned it off and taped it, but in my haste I didn't get it sealed good and acid got under the tape and removed some of the back plane. So I removed the tape and just let the acid etch off the rest of the copper but the artwork side was done before the back finished. So my traces were thinner than it should have been but it stilled worked.

 

I'm so happy with how well the toner sticks to the boards now. So to sum it up, I clean the boards really good wipe them dry and then put them in acid mix just long enough for the copper to turn a darker color, maybe 15 seconds, remove from the acid rinse with water and dry. I then put it through my laminator 5 times with the artwork and after it cools the toner is stuck to the board like cement. I now just use regular printer paper nothing special. Because it is regular printing paper after a soak for a couple of minutes it comes right off, no hard scrubbing like when I use to use photo paper. 

 

If anyone is interested I can post some pictures I might even make a video. 

Bill N7OQ

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by MIKE DURKIN

make a video ..

but could you also try the cold transfer .... with the alcohol and solvent ?

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:08:42 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

Well today I decided to do some experimenting with some different papers, I have been using parchment paper and pre-eching my boards in acid/hydrogen peroxide mix first to let them etch a little. well I found that the parchment paper was not picking up as much toner as regular paper. So I just cleaned a test board, printed a test page on my HP printer and ran it through the laminator 5 times and after it cooled I pulled the paper and none of the toner stuck to the board. I them pre-etched the board and again ran the board and artwork through the laminator 5 times and this time it stuck like cement to the board. The paper ripped off the toner and a little cleaning with soap and water all the paper was gone and nothing but toner. 


Now this is just plain printing paper nothing special. Plus now the toner is thick enough to etch with out having to print twice on the parchment paper and hoping the alignment is perfect on the second printing.   


So I tried it with artwork printed from Eagle Cad and left the traces at .01" and didn't do any touch up after it auto routed, like move close traces. It came out great all the toner transferred to the board and it etched out nicely no shorted traces. I did over etch it because I started etching it without putting any tape on the back side, I wanted to keep the one side full copper. So I pulled it out of the acid and cleaned it off and taped it, but in my haste I didn't get it sealed good and acid got under the tape and removed some of the back plane. So I removed the tape and just let the acid etch off the rest of the copper but the artwork side was done before the back finished. So my traces were thinner than it should have been but it stilled worked.


I'm so happy with how well the toner sticks to the boards now. So to sum it up, I clean the boards really good wipe them dry and then put them in acid mix just long enough for the copper to turn a darker color, maybe 15 seconds, remove from the acid rinse with water and dry. I then put it through my laminator 5 times with the artwork and after it cools the toner is stuck to the board like cement. I now just use regular printer paper nothing special. Because it is regular printing paper after a soak for a couple of minutes it comes right off, no hard scrubbing like when I use to use photo paper. 


If anyone is interested I can post some pictures I might even make a video. 
Bill N7OQ

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by Bill Verstelle

Jeff my laminator is stock and the thermo switch is rated for 120c or 266 degrees F. Also the printer I'm using is a HP 1102w 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 16, 2016, at 4:13 PM, 'Jeff Heiss' jeff.heiss@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Great info.  One question - what temperature is the laminator?

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 7:09 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

 

Well today I decided to do some experimenting with some different papers, I have been using parchment paper and pre-eching my boards in acid/hydrogen peroxide mix first to let them etch a little. well I found that the parchment paper was not picking up as much toner as regular paper. So I just cleaned a test board, printed a test page on my HP printer and ran it through the laminator 5 times and after it cooled I pulled the paper and none of the toner stuck to the board. I them pre-etched the board and again ran the board and artwork through the laminator 5 times and this time it stuck like cement to the board. The paper ripped off the toner and a little cleaning with soap and water all the paper was gone and nothing but toner. 

 

Now this is just plain printing paper nothing special. Plus now the toner is thick enough to etch with out having to print twice on the parchment paper and hoping the alignment is perfect on the second printing.   

 

So I tried it with artwork printed from Eagle Cad and left the traces at .01" and didn't do any touch up after it auto routed, like move close traces. It came out great all the toner transferred to the board and it etched out nicely no shorted traces. I did over etch it because I started etching it without putting any tape on the back side, I wanted to keep the one side full copper. So I pulled it out of the acid and cleaned it off and taped it, but in my haste I didn't get it sealed good and acid got under the tape and removed some of the back plane. So I removed the tape and just let the acid etch off the rest of the copper but the artwork side was done before the back finished. So my traces were thinner than it should have been but it stilled worked.

 

I'm so happy with how well the toner sticks to the boards now. So to sum it up, I clean the boards really good wipe them dry and then put them in acid mix just long enough for the copper to turn a darker color, maybe 15 seconds, remove from the acid rinse with water and dry. I then put it through my laminator 5 times with the artwork and after it cools the toner is stuck to the board like cement. I now just use regular printer paper nothing special. Because it is regular printing paper after a soak for a couple of minutes it comes right off, no hard scrubbing like when I use to use photo paper. 

 

If anyone is interested I can post some pictures I might even make a video. 

Bill N7OQ

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by Bill Verstelle

OK Mike will do and the video, I have a GoPro so I'll see if I cam make it work. Also I picked up some Acetone the other day after reading all the posts here, so will try that as well.  

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 16, 2016, at 4:15 PM, MIKE DURKIN Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

make a video ..

but could you also try the cold transfer .... with the alcohol and solvent ?

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:08:42 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

Well today I decided to do some experimenting with some different papers, I have been using parchment paper and pre-eching my boards in acid/hydrogen peroxide mix first to let them etch a little. well I found that the parchment paper was not picking up as much toner as regular paper. So I just cleaned a test board, printed a test page on my HP printer and ran it through the laminator 5 times and after it cooled I pulled the paper and none of the toner stuck to the board. I them pre-etched the board and again ran the board and artwork through the laminator 5 times and this time it stuck like cement to the board. The paper ripped off the toner and a little cleaning with soap and water all the paper was gone and nothing but toner. 


Now this is just plain printing paper nothing special. Plus now the toner is thick enough to etch with out having to print twice on the parchment paper and hoping the alignment is perfect on the second printing.   


So I tried it with artwork printed from Eagle Cad and left the traces at .01" and didn't do any touch up after it auto routed, like move close traces. It came out great all the toner transferred to the board and it etched out nicely no shorted traces. I did over etch it because I started etching it without putting any tape on the back side, I wanted to keep the one side full copper. So I pulled it out of the acid and cleaned it off and taped it, but in my haste I didn't get it sealed good and acid got under the tape and removed some of the back plane. So I removed the tape and just let the acid etch off the rest of the copper but the artwork side was done before the back finished. So my traces were thinner than it should have been but it stilled worked.


I'm so happy with how well the toner sticks to the boards now. So to sum it up, I clean the boards really good wipe them dry and then put them in acid mix just long enough for the copper to turn a darker color, maybe 15 seconds, remove from the acid rinse with water and dry. I then put it through my laminator 5 times with the artwork and after it cools the toner is stuck to the board like cement. I now just use regular printer paper nothing special. Because it is regular printing paper after a soak for a couple of minutes it comes right off, no hard scrubbing like when I use to use photo paper. 


If anyone is interested I can post some pictures I might even make a video. 
Bill N7OQ

Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by RDHeiliger

On pre-etch boards. I read some time ago that PCB board manufacturers oxidize the copper before adhering it to the fiberglass substrate. Bare copper is difficult to bond to, but a thin oxide layer bonds well. I use cheap board that often have defects and I clean them with 400 grit sand paper on an orbital sander. Then I clean the board with lacquer thinner. What ever is in lacquer thinner creates a thin oxide layer, and aid in adhering the toner to the board. Found this also allows a lower laminator temperature, and less distortion of the toner.
 
Think this pre-etch may also be applicable to the acetone transfer method that has been documented here recently.
 
RD 

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by duwaynes@...

The thing I have found best for doing toner transfer with a laminator is to run the board through the laminator 3  or so times to preheat it.   Then put on the paper and run it through 6 times to transfer to the board.  This usually works well for me. 
I think that with the couple experiments I tried with the cold transfer method, I was getting better results, and will switch to that for future boards.
Also look at some of the advanced printer settings.  I have one that is called 'reduce paper curl'  this appears to lower the fuser temperature so the toner is not bonded to the paper as well.  It seems to help getting a cleaner transfer.
DuWayne
kv4qb.blogspot.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by DJ Delorie

"'RDHeiliger' rdheiliger@... [Homebrew_PCBs]"
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> writes:
> well. I use cheap board that often have defects and I clean them with
> 400 grit sand paper on an orbital sander. Then I clean the board with
> lacquer thinner. What ever is in lacquer thinner creates a thin oxide
> layer, and aid in adhering the toner to the board. Found this also

I did some experiments a while back, and they make me think that the 400
grit sandpaper step is the key one. Copper that is TOO shiny won't give
the toner anything to mechanically grab on to. This is why you can use
transparency film for toner transfer - it's very shiny so the toner
doesn't stick to it as much as it sticks to the copper.

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/transparencies/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by Bill Verstelle

Hi CB I use a 50/50 mix of muriatic acid (pool acid) to Hydrogen peroxide. I have heard of other mix ratios  but this is what I use. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 17, 2016, at 7:34 AM, camillus camillus_blockx@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Bill,


Can you tell us what mix you used to pretch the board?

thnx
cb

On 1/16/2016 6:42:36 PM, Bill Verstelle verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

OK Mike will do and the video, I have a GoPro so I'll see if I cam make it work. Also I picked up some Acetone the other day after reading all the posts here, so will try that as well.  

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 16, 2016, at 4:15 PM, MIKE DURKIN Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

make a video ..

but could you also try the cold transfer .... with the alcohol and solvent ?

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:08:42 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

Well today I decided to do some experimenting with some different papers, I have been using parchment paper and pre-eching my boards in acid/hydrogen peroxide mix first to let them etch a little. well I found that the parchment paper was not picking up as much toner as regular paper. So I just cleaned a test board, printed a test page on my HP printer and ran it through the laminator 5 times and after it cooled I pulled the paper and none of the toner stuck to the board. I them pre-etched the board and again ran the board and artwork through the laminator 5 times and this time it stuck like cement to the board. The paper ripped off the toner and a little cleaning with soap and water all the paper was gone and nothing but toner. 


Now this is just plain printing paper nothing special. Plus now the toner is thick enough to etch with out having to print twice on the parchment paper and hoping the alignment is perfect on the second printing.   


So I tried it with artwork printed from Eagle Cad and left the traces at .01" and didn't do any touch up after it auto routed, like move close traces. It came out great all the toner transferred to the board and it etched out nicely no shorted traces. I did over etch it because I started etching it without putting any tape on the back side, I wanted to keep the one side full copper. So I pulled it out of the acid and cleaned it off and taped it, but in my haste I didn't get it sealed good and acid got under the tape and removed some of the back plane. So I removed the tape and just let the acid etch off the rest of the copper but the artwork side was done before the back finished. So my traces were thinner than it should have been but it stilled worked.


I'm so happy with how well the toner sticks to the boards now. So to sum it up, I clean the boards really good wipe them dry and then put them in acid mix just long enough for the copper to turn a darker color, maybe 15 seconds, remove from the acid rinse with water and dry. I then put it through my laminator 5 times with the artwork and after it cools the toner is stuck to the board like cement. I now just use regular printer paper nothing special. Because it is regular printing paper after a soak for a couple of minutes it comes right off, no hard scrubbing like when I use to use photo paper. 


If anyone is interested I can post some pictures I might even make a video. 
Bill N7OQ

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by Bill Verstelle

I think I the past that was my biggest problem I cleaned the boards so good it looked like a new penny. I has so much trouble getting toner to stick, and I tried everything, more heat, used the wife's iron, and tried every paper you could find and the best luck I had was with that blue paper made just for toner transferase then it was never perfect. But now that I pre-etch I can use any paper, such a huge difference. 

Today I'll pre-etch a board and try the cold transfer everyone it talking about. 
Bill

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 17, 2016, at 9:54 AM, 'RDHeiliger' rdheiliger@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

On pre-etch boards. I read some time ago that PCB board manufacturers oxidize the copper before adhering it to the fiberglass substrate. Bare copper is difficult to bond to, but a thin oxide layer bonds well. I use cheap board that often have defects and I clean them with 400 grit sand paper on an orbital sander. Then I clean the board with lacquer thinner. What ever is in lacquer thinner creates a thin oxide layer, and aid in adhering the toner to the board. Found this also allows a lower laminator temperature, and less distortion of the toner.
 
Think this pre-etch may also be applicable to the acetone transfer method that has been documented here recently.
 
RD 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by <n0tt1@...>

RE:  Cleaning the boards....
My experience to date has sort of been the opposite, i.e., I clean the boards
with "Bar Keeper's Friend" (it's like Ajax powder without bleach) and a
sponge.  I clean it enough so that water doesn't bead on the copper...it just
"lays there" and kind of spreads out.  Then I use the clothes iron or laminator.
I use "genuine" HP toner and HP printer.
 
It could be that the powder scratches the board just enough for the
toner to adhere easier.  BUT, I'm going to try the pre-etch method to put
a "patina" on the copper, then apply the toner.  The cold transfer method
looks like a good method....not tried here yet.
 
Charlie
 
On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 11:53:14 -0800 "Bill Verstelle verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> writes:
 

I think I the past that was my biggest problem I cleaned the boards so good it looked like a new penny. I has so much trouble getting toner to stick, and I tried everything, more heat, used the wife's iron, and tried every paper you could find and the best luck I had was with that blue paper made just for toner transferase then it was never perfect. But now that I pre-etch I can use any paper, such a huge difference. 

Today I'll pre-etch a board and try the cold transfer everyone it talking about. 
Bill

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 17, 2016, at 9:54 AM, 'RDHeiliger' rdheiliger@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

On pre-etch boards. I read some time ago that PCB board manufacturers oxidize the copper before adhering it to the fiberglass substrate. Bare copper is difficult to bond to, but a thin oxide layer bonds well. I use cheap board that often have defects and I clean them with 400 grit sand paper on an orbital sander. Then I clean the board with lacquer thinner. What ever is in lacquer thinner creates a thin oxide layer, and aid in adhering the toner to the board. Found this also allows a lower laminator temperature, and less distortion of the toner.
 
Think this pre-etch may also be applicable to the acetone transfer method that has been documented here recently.
 
RD 

 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by verstelle@...

Well I tried the cold transfer method and had no luck at all. I tried a 3:8 mix and no transfer at all. I tried a 1:1 mix still no transfer. I then tried a 100% acetone and I got some transfer but not 100% maybe a 50% not good enough to make a board. Maybe my toner is not the right type for this method but I can clean the toner off with this acetone. Maybe its to cold, but even when i heat it up is still gets cold fast as it evaporates so fast. 

So will stick to what works for me, I'm very happy with the boards I now make with the heat process I'm using so no need to change plus the acetone stinks and gives me a headache. 
Bill N7OQ 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-17 by <Patriot121@...>

Was the board pre-etched or glossy copper?

Sent from Outlook Mobile




On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 3:26 PM -0800, "verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well I tried the cold transfer method and had no luck at all. I tried a 3:8 mix and no transfer at all. I tried a 1:1 mix still no transfer. I then tried a 100% acetone and I got some transfer but not 100% maybe a 50% not good enough to make a board. Maybe my toner is not the right type for this method but I can clean the toner off with this acetone. Maybe its to cold, but even when i heat it up is still gets cold fast as it evaporates so fast. 


So will stick to what works for me, I'm very happy with the boards I now make with the heat process I'm using so no need to change plus the acetone stinks and gives me a headache. 
Bill N7OQ 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-18 by Bill Verstelle

It was pre-etched, in fact I took the same board cleaned off the toner that did stick to it and made a new print of the artwork ran it through the laminator and made a near perfect board. 

I'm starting to find that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for others. I think there are to many variables. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 17, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Was the board pre-etched or glossy copper?

Sent from Outlook Mobile




On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 3:26 PM -0800, "verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well I tried the cold transfer method and had no luck at all. I tried a 3:8 mix and no transfer at all. I tried a 1:1 mix still no transfer. I then tried a 100% acetone and I got some transfer but not 100% maybe a 50% not good enough to make a board. Maybe my toner is not the right type for this method but I can clean the toner off with this acetone. Maybe its to cold, but even when i heat it up is still gets cold fast as it evaporates so fast. 


So will stick to what works for me, I'm very happy with the boards I now make with the heat process I'm using so no need to change plus the acetone stinks and gives me a headache. 
Bill N7OQ 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-18 by Kirk Kleinschmidt

Bill,

I think the largest variable is the specific toner type.

Some work well...some not so well...

--Kirk, NT0Z
  Rochester, MN
 
My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from
www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)


On Monday, January 18, 2016 3:49 AM, "Bill Verstelle verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
It was pre-etched, in fact I took the same board cleaned off the toner that did stick to it and made a new print of the artwork ran it through the laminator and made a near perfect board. 

I'm starting to find that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for others. I think there are to many variables. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 17, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Was the board pre-etched or glossy copper?
Sent from Outlook Mobile



On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 3:26 PM -0800, "verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Well I tried the cold transfer method and had no luck at all. I tried a 3:8 mix and no transfer at all. I tried a 1:1 mix still no transfer. I then tried a 100% acetone and I got some transfer but not 100% maybe a 50% not good enough to make a board. Maybe my toner is not the right type for this method but I can clean the toner off with this acetone. Maybe its to cold, but even when i heat it up is still gets cold fast as it evaporates so fast. 

So will stick to what works for me, I'm very happy with the boards I now make with the heat process I'm using so no need to change plus the acetone stinks and gives me a headache. 
Bill N7OQ 


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-18 by Kirk Kleinschmidt

Does your HP 1102 have HP-brand toner, or aftermarket?

Sometimes this makes all the difference (either way).

Regards,

--Kirk, NT0Z
  Rochester, MN
 
My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)


On Monday, January 18, 2016 1:12 PM, "Bill Verstelle verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
It's a HP P1102w 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 18, 2016, at 8:47 AM, leeleduc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
What brand and model printer are you using?


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-18 by Bill Verstelle

I bought this printer used, but the toner cartridge says HP on it so I assume it' original. The total print count on the printer is 4000 and it says the cartridge says it has maybe 2000 prints left. I needed something cheap and it only cost me $40 so that fit The bill and it looks brand new. 

I have seen several people using this printer but not sure if any have done a successful cold transfer with it. 


Sent from my iPad

On Jan 18, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Kirk Kleinschmidt kirk@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Does your HP 1102 have HP-brand toner, or aftermarket?

Sometimes this makes all the difference (either way).

Regards,

--Kirk, NT0Z
  Rochester, MN
 
My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)


On Monday, January 18, 2016 1:12 PM, "Bill Verstelle verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
It's a HP P1102w 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 18, 2016, at 8:47 AM, leeleduc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
What brand and model printer are you using?


Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-22 by verstelle@...

OK just a note, today I made my first 2 sides board using toner transfer and it came out great the holes lined up perfectly.

But after I finished etching the board I though I would try to cleaner the toner off with Acetone, the same Acetone I tried to do the cold transfer with the other day and to my shock I had to scrub like hell to get it off. 

So ether my toner is the wrong type for acetone transfer or the acetone is not so pure. Also another thing comes to mind, maybe it to cold. I'm doing it in the garage and it's cold out there so who knows maybe Acetone doesn't work so good when it's cold.  

In the past one wipe with Acetone and the toner was gone, but it was summer then. 
Bill

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-22 by camillus

Hi,

I did some experiments with toner from brother and hp lasers. The mixes did not work at all, so I tried to soak  the toner image ( on normal paper) in pure ACETONE ( high yield nail polisher remover ) and hardly touched the toner. The HP was reacting the a bit and made the solution a bit black, but the brother toner did not butches.

Now my only thing I can do is using more pure ACETONE instead of the nail polish remover.

I do this experiments in a basement at slightly less then room temperature.

cb

On 1/22/2016 12:10:14 AM, verstelle@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

OK just a note, today I made my first 2 sides board using toner transfer and it came out great the holes lined up perfectly.


But after I finished etching the board I though I would try to cleaner the toner off with Acetone, the same Acetone I tried to do the cold transfer with the other day and to my shock I had to scrub like hell to get it off. 

So ether my toner is the wrong type for acetone transfer or the acetone is not so pure. Also another thing comes to mind, maybe it to cold. I'm doing it in the garage and it's cold out there so who knows maybe Acetone doesn't work so good when it's cold.  

In the past one wipe with Acetone and the toner was gone, but it was summer then. 
Bill

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-23 by mistuff@...

I have a Brothers laser printer and Acetone (pure) does not desolve the toner on paper.
I tried several chemicals that I have used for other purposesand only get a slight reaction.

 Laquer Thinner (from Homedepot paint department) looks like it will work. I would appreciate someone trying this on an actual PCB and reporting results.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-24 by MIKE DURKIN

Your Acetone (pure) = 100% ? is that what it says on the bottle ?

What is the product ##?

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:34:11 -0800
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 
I have a Brothers laser printer and Acetone (pure) does not desolve the toner on paper.
I tried several chemicals that I have used for other purposesand only get a slight reaction.

 Laquer Thinner (from Homedepot paint department) looks like it will work. I would appreciate someone trying this on an actual PCB and reporting results.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-24 by mistuff@...

(pure) = shortcut notation that I did not modify it by adding anything else. It is "acetone" (bought in Homedepot paint department. It is not "nail polish remover" which most likely contains acetone but my also have other stuff in it.
I printed some text on a sheet of paper using the Brothers printer. I then deposited (in different spots) acetone, Isopropal alcohol, Methal alcohol, MEK, Naptha, and Laquer thinner. At each spot, I put a blank piece of paper and held it for about a minute. The Laquer thinner location was the only spot in which there was actually a transfer of print on to the blank paper.

I didn't perform any other test because I'm busy with other stuff right now and I'm not experienced in using the chemical transfer process. That is why I suggested that someone already doing chemical transfer (and having a Brothers printer) give this a try on PCB and tell us the results. I have no idea how well this  transfer would stick to PCB for etching.

Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-24 by RDHeiliger

Look for my post in Cold Toner Transfer on lacquer thinner. It works great at a mix of 1 part lacquer thinner 3 parts fuel grade alcohol.
I have an HP M252 printer.
I had a Brother printer awhile back, it did very poor with a laminator, seemed like they use a higher melt toner. I gave it away and went to an HP. I got the best transfer with a Minolta printer, that they stopped making, and didn’t work under windows 7.
 
RD

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-25 by Bob Butcher

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/24/16, mistuff@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 24, 2016, 9:16 AM

Good information. I have tried many times to get thermal transfer to work with a Brother printer, but it seems the toner just does not want to melt like some other printers apparently do. I will try laquer thinner next time I make a board. I did see a post that pre-etching the board a few seconds helps with adhesion.

Bob
 









(pure) = shortcut notation that I did not modify it
by adding anything else. It is "acetone" (bought
in Homedepot paint department. It is not "nail polish
remover" which most likely contains acetone but my also
have other stuff in it.
I printed some text
on a sheet of paper using the Brothers printer. I then
deposited (in different spots) acetone, Isopropal alcohol,
Methal alcohol, MEK, Naptha, and Laquer thinner. At each
spot, I put a blank piece of paper and held it for about a
minute. The Laquer thinner location was the only spot in
which there was actually a transfer of print on to the blank
paper.

I didn't
perform any other test because I'm busy with other stuff
right now and I'm not experienced in using the chemical
transfer process. That is why I suggested that someone
already doing chemical transfer (and having a Brothers
printer) give this a try on PCB and tell us the results. I
have no idea how well this  transfer would stick to PCB for
etching.









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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-25 by MIKE DURKIN

I'm glad you posted your results with the Brother Printer ... I don't remember if it was a laser or other type ....

Heck i dont even know what type my printer is .... and worse, i don't remember what Ebay refill and count chip i bought ,,,,


Just looked .. a dell 1700n  (and online - its a mono laser printer that can do 1200 X 1200, probably 1200 X720 ill bet) -- i tried hot transfer with no results ... was with green paper i got for free and then tried using clear packing tape .... probably the replacement toner ....

Im keen on trying again with a chemical transfer ....

ill try your test method with what i have and see if i get lucky ... all i have on hand is some paint thinner ... ill buy some Laquer thinner , shouldn't be too spendy.




From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 08:16:15 -0800
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 
(pure) = shortcut notation that I did not modify it by adding anything else. It is "acetone" (bought in Homedepot paint department. It is not "nail polish remover" which most likely contains acetone but my also have other stuff in it.
I printed some text on a sheet of paper using the Brothers printer. I then deposited (in different spots) acetone, Isopropal alcohol, Methal alcohol, MEK, Naptha, and Laquer thinner. At each spot, I put a blank piece of paper and held it for about a minute. The Laquer thinner location was the only spot in which there was actually a transfer of print on to the blank paper.

I didn't perform any other test because I'm busy with other stuff right now and I'm not experienced in using the chemical transfer process. That is why I suggested that someone already doing chemical transfer (and having a Brothers printer) give this a try on PCB and tell us the results. I have no idea how well this  transfer would stick to PCB for etching.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-26 by Jeff Heiss

DJ has excellent test artwork of traces 15 mil to 1 mil (.38mm to 0.025mm)
in pdf, png, and gerbers.

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/spirals/

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 6:11 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by
etching the boards first



--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/24/16, mistuff@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by
etching the boards first
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 24, 2016, 9:16 AM

Good information. I have tried many times to get thermal transfer to work
with a Brother printer, but it seems the toner just does not want to melt
like some other printers apparently do. I will try laquer thinner next time
I make a board. I did see a post that pre-etching the board a few seconds
helps with adhesion.

Bob










(pure) = shortcut notation that I did not modify it
by adding anything else. It is "acetone" (bought
in Homedepot paint department. It is not "nail polish
remover" which most likely contains acetone but my also
have other stuff in it.
I printed some text
on a sheet of paper using the Brothers printer. I then
deposited (in different spots) acetone, Isopropal alcohol,
Methal alcohol, MEK, Naptha, and Laquer thinner. At each
spot, I put a blank piece of paper and held it for about a
minute. The Laquer thinner location was the only spot in
which there was actually a transfer of print on to the blank
paper.

I didn't
perform any other test because I'm busy with other stuff
right now and I'm not experienced in using the chemical
transfer process. That is why I suggested that someone
already doing chemical transfer (and having a Brothers
printer) give this a try on PCB and tell us the results. I
have no idea how well this transfer would stick to PCB for
etching.









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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-27 by Howard Chester

I have been following post with interest, even though I only use the Photo expose and etch method. (I have had consistent results with 2 layer boards)
As some members seem to be prepared to experiment with various solvents to achieve good  and repeatable results, how about trying Brake Fluid?
As this substance seems to dissolve a wide variety of plastics, natural and synthetic Rubber, Car paints. (Including factory finishes! This method was used in the past, some "muppets" had daubed a bottle of brake fluid all over my buddy's car with really nasty results)


On a related topic using the same post heading; -
Has anyone used, or tried using a low power Extreme Ultra-violet (UAV) LASER (I cannot remember if it's 40 or 400nM) to expose the photo-resist clad board?. At the time of attracting my attention these LASERS were on sale at 45.00GBP!!!!
My set-up would involve a standard PCB CNC table with a "Qwick-Connect" adapter to allow rapid change of the Z-axis between Drill and LASER mounts.
I have asked about this topic in the past and received no response, but this was during a period of my account being hacked

chester

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-27 by MIKE DURKIN

I think that brakefluid is not all that volatile ... ie does not evaporate very fast ... im not sure it will deposit on the PCB all that fast ...

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:50:07 +0000
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

I have been following post with interest, even though I only use the Photo expose and etch method. (I have had consistent results with 2 layer boards)
As some members seem to be prepared to experiment with various solvents to achieve good  and repeatable results, how about trying Brake Fluid?
As this substance seems to dissolve a wide variety of plastics, natural and synthetic Rubber, Car paints. (Including factory finishes! This method was used in the past, some "muppets" had daubed a bottle of brake fluid all over my buddy's car with really nasty results)


On a related topic using the same post heading; -
Has anyone used, or tried using a low power Extreme Ultra-violet (UAV) LASER (I cannot remember if it's 40 or 400nM) to expose the photo-resist clad board?. At the time of attracting my attention these LASERS were on sale at 45.00GBP!!!!
My set-up would involve a standard PCB CNC table with a "Qwick-Connect" adapter to allow rapid change of the Z-axis between Drill and LASER mounts.
I have asked about this topic in the past and received no response, but this was during a period of my account being hacked

chester

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

2016-01-27 by rolohar@...

BRAKE FLUID??

No Way!

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
*****************************

From: "MIKE DURKIN Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:59:09 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 


I think that brakefluid is not all that volatile ... ie does not evaporate very fast ... im not sure it will deposit on the PCB all that fast ...

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:50:07 +0000
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: more experiments with Toner transfer by etching the boards first

 

I have been following post with interest, even though I only use the Photo expose and etch method. (I have had consistent results with 2 layer boards)
As some members seem to be prepared to experiment with various solvents to achieve good  and repeatable results, how about trying Brake Fluid?
As this substance seems to dissolve a wide variety of plastics, natural and synthetic Rubber, Car paints. (Including factory finishes! This method was used in the past, some "muppets" had daubed a bottle of brake fluid all over my buddy's car with really nasty results)


On a related topic using the same post heading; -
Has anyone used, or tried using a low power Extreme Ultra-violet (UAV) LASER (I cannot remember if it's 40 or 400nM) to expose the photo-resist clad board?. At the time of attracting my attention these LASERS were on sale at 45.00GBP!!!!
My set-up would involve a standard PCB CNC table with a "Qwick-Connect" adapter to allow rapid change of the Z-axis between Drill and LASER mounts.
I have asked about this topic in the past and received no response, but this was during a period of my account being hacked

chester