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My toner transfer experance

My toner transfer experance

2016-01-01 by verstelle@...

Hi group well I have been making PCB's for many years now starting from using my moms fingernail polish as a etch resistant. I have never had much luck doing the toner transfer method so most of my boards lately have been done using photo sensitized boards. Well my old Brother laser printer died so I dismantled it and threw away anything I didn't have a need for. So now doing artwork on a inkjet was not so good, never dark enough and I was using vellum paper because I didn't have any transparency sheets that would work on a inkjet. So my last few boards were not so good even a few total failures. This is expensive using photo boards.


Well I decided to buy another cheap laser printer so I found a like new HP P1102w for $40. So now I could make transparencies now. Yesterday I decided to give toner transfer another go, and I printer some artwork on some parchment paper and run it through the laminator. To my surprise it came out almost perfect. Well I thought life was good until I noticed my artwork was backwards. So I did it again but this time total failure, I spent the rest of the evening trying got make another board. Tried running in through the laminator more and less times, remove the artwork hot and cold, different board clenaing methods tried wax paper. But nothing made a board as good as the first one. Well just before going to bed for the night I decider to rough up a board with sand paper and that worked the best but not perfect still some traces did not stick. 


So as I went to sleep I thought about and it came to me that toner doesn't want to stick to copper because the cleaner I got the copper the worst my results were. So today I tried sanding again with some results then I decided to clean a board as uaual but this time I put it in some acid/hydrogen peroxide solution I etch with and let it turn brown then I took it out rinsed it in water, dried it and using parchment paper again I ran it through the laminator 7 times and let it cool some and this time every bit of toner stuck the copper. It produced a perfect board to my standards.  After etching I cleaned it up with a Brillow pad and the copper traces look nice and shinny.  Also when I ran it through the laminator inside a carrier there was some artwork that was on the carrier that had come off a paper I had run through it earlier and it stuck to the back side of my board and totally came off the cardboard and stuck the the PCB. So when you do a slight etch of the PCB before laminating it, the toner sticks to it like super glue. Hope this helps someone struggling  like I did getting toner to transfer to the copper. 

Bill N7OQ

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

2016-01-01 by MIKE DURKIN

works for me ...

What kind of acid ?

I only have Ferric Chloride .... if had it for over 25years. One bottle iv never opened.

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 16:19:06 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

 

Hi group well I have been making PCB's for many years now starting from using my moms fingernail polish as a etch resistant. I have never had much luck doing the toner transfer method so most of my boards lately have been done using photo sensitized boards. Well my old Brother laser printer died so I dismantled it and threw away anything I didn't have a need for. So now doing artwork on a inkjet was not so good, never dark enough and I was using vellum paper because I didn't have any transparency sheets that would work on a inkjet. So my last few boards were not so good even a few total failures. This is expensive using photo boards.


Well I decided to buy another cheap laser printer so I found a like new HP P1102w for $40. So now I could make transparencies now. Yesterday I decided to give toner transfer another go, and I printer some artwork on some parchment paper and run it through the laminator. To my surprise it came out almost perfect. Well I thought life was good until I noticed my artwork was backwards. So I did it again but this time total failure, I spent the rest of the evening trying got make another board. Tried running in through the laminator more and less times, remove the artwork hot and cold, different board clenaing methods tried wax paper. But nothing made a board as good as the first one. Well just before going to bed for the night I decider to rough up a board with sand paper and that worked the best but not perfect still some traces did not stick. 


So as I went to sleep I thought about and it came to me that toner doesn't want to stick to copper because the cleaner I got the copper the worst my results were. So today I tried sanding again with some results then I decided to clean a board as uaual but this time I put it in some acid/hydrogen peroxide solution I etch with and let it turn brown then I took it out rinsed it in water, dried it and using parchment paper again I ran it through the laminator 7 times and let it cool some and this time every bit of toner stuck the copper. It produced a perfect board to my standards.  After etching I cleaned it up with a Brillow pad and the copper traces look nice and shinny.  Also when I ran it through the laminator inside a carrier there was some artwork that was on the carrier that had come off a paper I had run through it earlier and it stuck to the back side of my board and totally came off the cardboard and stuck the the PCB. So when you do a slight etch of the PCB before laminating it, the toner sticks to it like super glue. Hope this helps someone struggling  like I did getting toner to transfer to the copper. 
Bill N7OQ

Re: My toner transfer experance

2016-01-01 by me@...

Use Scotch Brite pads before and after etching, I add a bit of hand soap.   Scrub under running water.

 Run the board through laminator at least ten time , flipping the board in every direction.

I print on wax paper. Tape a piece smaller than  a sheet of paper to a sheet of paper.  I have found Reynolds brand works the best.

Re: My toner transfer experance

2016-01-02 by lphebus@...

Thanks Bill !   

I will give pre-etching a try.  What kind of laminator do you use?   I have a harbor freight "el cheapo" and I do not think the temp gets hot enough.  I modified it to slow it down, but still no transfer from parchment.  The max temp I get is about 140C.  I get better results with an iron at 175C.

Lee

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by Russell Shaw

On 01/01/16 12:57, MIKE DURKIN Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
> works for me ...
>
> What kind of acid ?
>
> I only have Ferric Chloride .... if had it for over 25years. One bottle iv never
> opened.

If you use it and use bubble agitation, keep it stored for next time, and top up
with a bit of HCl hydrochloric or muriatic acid next time it's used. It'll
convert to copper chloride etchant and last many dozens of uses, like years
worth. I have mine diluted 1:1 with water which works well. Keep the container
covered when not in use, to prevent HCl vapour from making things rust.

Re: My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by verstelle@...

Hi Lee I'm using a GBC Personal Laminator, seems to get hot enough. Today I made 2 more boards, both using, clean and pre-etch and both had 100% transfer. Because my printer never gets as dark as I would like I also laminate it with some green foil stuff i got from Digikey, it only sticks to toner.So after I transfer the toner to the copper I put a piece of the green foil over the board and run it through the laminator a few times and it turns all the toner green, filling in all the little pin holes. 
Bill

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by verstelle@...

Mike I'm using a 50/50 mix of Pool acid and Hydrogen peroxide. I think it is muriatic Acid. I put a clean board in for maybe 15 seconds, just long enough to turn a brownish copper color, then I take it out run it under cold water and dry it. Sense I have a pool I just pour the old acid into the pool, the copper in the acid helps to keep the algae down.   

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by keith printy

Never thought of adding acid to it to extend it’s life. When I got towards the end of the etching process I’ve seen ferric chloride start to solidify.

When I worked in an electronics plant we used ammonium persulfate for etching boards. And photo resist I believe Kodak brand.  We would put the negative on the board and expose under a sunlamp for 5 minutes. I forget what the developer was , xylene maybe ?  I have spray photo resist here they made it in both positive and negative types developer is different for each ,believe it was made by gc electronics.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2016 3:01 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

 

 

On 01/01/16 12:57, MIKE DURKIN Patriot121@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

>
> works for me ...
>
> What kind of acid ?
>
> I only have Ferric Chloride .... if had it for over 25years. One bottle iv never
> opened.

If you use it and use bubble agitation, keep it stored for next time, and top up
with a bit of HCl hydrochloric or muriatic acid next time it's used. It'll
convert to copper chloride etchant and last many dozens of uses, like years
worth. I have mine diluted 1:1 with water which works well. Keep the container
covered when not in use, to prevent HCl vapour from making things rust.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by Bob Butcher

I use Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide, 1 part acid (28%) to 2 parts Hydrogen Peroxide (3%). From what I have read, if the solution turns brown, it needs regeneration which can be done with an air bubbler. The solution is cheap enough that you can just neutralize it with baking soda and throw it away. The acid is widely available at Home Depot or pool supply stores, but make sure it is Hydrochloric Acid; I have seen Sulfuric Acid labeled as pool acid.

Bob

Re: My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by Bob Butcher

I would think the wax would melt in the laminator and coat the copper board in all the wrong places.

Bob

Re: My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by mosaicmerc@...

What wax Bob?

I use diluted nitric acid to etch copper. It works very well and lasts decades.
I have a carboyle of the concentrated stuff, diluted 3:1 with water as and when I need it.
My First carboyle (1 gallon) lasted 20 years as you can just add a bit more acid to strengthen the mix any time.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by Bill Verstelle

Bob I tried wax paper when I was having problems getting all the toner to stick and with the wax paper no toner stuck to the board. I don't know if the wax melts and gets on the board or coats the toner but it didn't work at all for me. Now parchment paper works great for me. 
Bill

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 3, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Bob Butcher bbutcher85@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I would think the wax would melt in the laminator and coat the copper board in all the wrong places.

Bob

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] My toner transfer experance

2016-01-03 by Bill Verstelle

Thanks Bob, I will try your ratios next board I etch.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 3, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Bob Butcher bbutcher85@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I use Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide, 1 part acid (28%) to 2 parts Hydrogen Peroxide (3%). From what I have read, if the solution turns brown, it needs regeneration which can be done with an air bubbler. The solution is cheap enough that you can just neutralize it with baking soda and throw it away. The acid is widely available at Home Depot or pool supply stores, but make sure it is Hydrochloric Acid; I have seen Sulfuric Acid labeled as pool acid.

Bob