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Thread

Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-19 by <twgray2007@...>

Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.

I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.

My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-20 by Jack Schmidling

On 10/19/2013 1:40 PM, twgray2007@... wrote:

> I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner
> transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've
> tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb,

So, what do you mean by vinyl?  Sounds like something I would like to try.

I think the mushy print you are getting is heat related.  You need to 
find the temp that works and that is where the IR thermometer comes in. 
  Too hot and it mushes.

I would experiment with an iron and IR thermometer to find what temp 
works and if your vinyl is actually viable and then use this info to 
adjust your laminating.

I saw  the bleeding with both PnP and  label backing but only when too hot.

I don't have a laminator but think that the temp issue could be reduced 
by adding layers of paper on top of the transfer medium.  The more 
layers, the less heat would get to the medium.

js

-- 

Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

       http://schmidling.com

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-20 by Tony Smith

> On 10/19/2013 1:40 PM, twgray2007@... wrote:
> 
> > I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for
> > toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything
> > I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb,
> 
> So, what do you mean by vinyl?  Sounds like something I would like to try.


Sign vinyl, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtmJdCBjwXY#t=63

Works well.  It's like the Pulsar 'print-n-peel' or whatever it's called.

You can get A4 sized pieces from craft shops (or eBay) for a $1 or so.

Tony

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-21 by Jack Schmidling

On 10/19/2013 11:20 PM, Tony Smith wrote:

> Sign vinyl, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtmJdCBjwXY#t=63
>
> Works well. It's like the Pulsar 'print-n-peel' or whatever it's called.
>
> You can get A4 sized pieces from craft shops (or eBay) for a $1 or so.

My wife found some vinyl document folders that didn't work at all.

One side is sort of pebble finish and was hopeless.  The other side is 
shiny but the lines bled hopelessly no matter how I set the printer.

I don't know if this is the same stuff referred to but it's all I could 
find in vinyl.

js

Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

       http://schmidling.com

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-21 by Tony Smith

> > Sign vinyl, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtmJdCBjwXY#t=63
> >
> > Works well. It's like the Pulsar 'print-n-peel' or whatever it's called.
> >
> > You can get A4 sized pieces from craft shops (or eBay) for a $1 or so.
> 
> My wife found some vinyl document folders that didn't work at all.
> 
> One side is sort of pebble finish and was hopeless.  The other side is shiny
> but the lines bled hopelessly no matter how I set the printer.
> 
> I don't know if this is the same stuff referred to but it's all I could find in vinyl.


Sign vinyl is the adhesive backed stuff for decals, you cut names etc out of it and stick on work vans and so on.  Some of it is meant to be printed on, presumably inkjet so you can print your own stickers (kinda like that adhesive-backed photo paper).

Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281189166785, well maybe not glossy & pink but anyway.  The adhesive doesn't matter much, but it does mean you can stick it directly only a piece of paper without stuffing about with tape.  I doubt you could buy it without the adhesive (what would you do with it?).

The thread earlier on mentioned a brand & part #, but most stuff would work.  IIRC the brand was Oracal: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251049327979, can't remember if gloss was ok or it had to be matt.

The crafters do the same thing on a small scale, the CriCut is a miniature sign cutter. You can get it with textures like carbon fibre or snake skin, but you don't want that.  For lolz here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/khrhmpl3p9at663/IMG_2320.JPG is a remote control 'skinned' with 'carbon fibre' burgundy sign vinyl.  (That was laser cut.)  The next one was gold, dang no photo.

Tony

Re: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-21 by AlienRelics

That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.

Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD
One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers.  I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.  
> 
> I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer.  Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time.  The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges.  I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed.  I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
> 
> My question is:  is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem?  Is there a fix?
>

RE: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-21 by <twgray2007@...>

I actually did give this a try. The backing has a super slick waxy finish and at a glance looks perfect for the application. However, it was so slick the toner wouldn't adhere to it. There were traces of it on the backing, but the rest was on the paper I had taped the backing to...like it remained on the drum until something it could adhere to came by. Anyway, at least for the stuff I had, no joy!

I just tried the vinyl again, but with an iron this time. This is the vinyl that "bled" so badly when I ran it through the laminator. I had the vinyl stuck to a piece of 81/2 x 11 printer paper (to go through the printer) and I had the iron set to the highest setting. I applied heat with only moderate pressure for 180 seconds, and then put the paper + vinyl in the freezer for 30 minutes. This resulted in about 95% transfer...some traces and pads didn't stick to the pcb, but no bleed at all. This leads me to think that the bleed is in fact from too much roller pressure in the laminator. I am not going to see if I can modify the laminator to give me less pressure on 0.064 pcb's.

---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <alienrelics@...> wrote:

That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.

Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD
One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.
>
> I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
>
> My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-21 by earlannis@...

Don't remove the backing!!! Print on the vinyl! Then place the toner on clean copper, add a piece or two of plain paper as a pad, and iron for 2 minutes at the highest or cotton setting.

Air cool for a minute or two and peel the vinyl from the copper.

�

Earl Hancock

�

on Oct 21, 2013, AlienRelics wrote:

That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.

Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD
One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, >
> Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.
>
> I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
>
> My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?
>

�

RE: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-22 by <twgray2007@...>

As indicated in the first post, I DID print onto the vinyl in my first tests. However, I did remove the backing in order to stick the vinyl to a piece of 81/2"x11" printer paper...so I could run it through the printer. Then I placed that, vinyl side against clean copper pcb and paper side up and ironed for 3 minutes. Not all the toner transferred. The problem could lie with the printer not placing enough toner on the vinyl or not enough pressure on the iron. I plan to experiment with both...different printer that I have had better success with and/or more pressure when I iron.

---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <earlannis@...> wrote:

Don't remove the backing!!! Print on the vinyl! Then place the toner on clean copper, add a piece or two of plain paper as a pad, and iron for 2 minutes at the highest or cotton setting.

Air cool for a minute or two and peel the vinyl from the copper.

Earl Hancock

on Oct 21, 2013, AlienRelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:

That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.

Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD
One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.
>
> I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
>
> My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?
>

Re: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-29 by tda7000

I have never used vinyl but I had problems with TT and 'mushing' of the image when trying to use an iron that I suspect was too hot.

I had a clothes iron on 'Linen' setting which (not verified) corresponded to about 220 degrees C, IIRC.

I got a laminator and modded it to run at the suggested temperature of 170. Never had problems with mushing or blobby images after that.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> As indicated in the first post, I DID print onto the vinyl in my first tests.  However, I did remove the backing in order to stick the vinyl to a piece of 81/2"x11" printer paper...so I could run it through the printer.  Then I placed that, vinyl side against clean copper pcb and paper side up and ironed for 3 minutes.  Not all the toner transferred.  The problem could lie with the printer not placing enough toner on the vinyl or not enough pressure on the iron.  I plan to experiment with both...different printer that I have had better success with and/or more pressure when I iron.
> 
>  
> 
> ---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <earlannis@> wrote:
> 
>  Don't remove the backing!!! Print on the vinyl! Then place the toner on clean copper, add a piece or two of plain paper as a pad, and iron for 2 minutes at the highest or cotton setting.
> 
> 
>  Air cool for a minute or two and peel the vinyl from the copper. 
>   
>  Earl Hancock
>   
>  on Oct 21, 2013, AlienRelics <alienrelics@> wrote:
>    That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.
>  
>  Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.
>  
>  Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>  One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...
>  
>  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@> wrote:
>  >
>  > Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer. 
>  > 
>  > I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
>  > 
>  > My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?
>  >
>

RE: Re: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-10-29 by <doug.forbes@...>

Which laminator is best for PCB work ? I want to buy one but I'm not sure about which one nor the modifications that are required. The archived files don't seem to be very conclusive and there are few model numbers.

Thanks

Doug

---In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have never used vinyl but I had problems with TT and 'mushing' of the image when trying to use an iron that I suspect was too hot.

I had a clothes iron on 'Linen' setting which (not verified) corresponded to about 220 degrees C, IIRC.

I got a laminator and modded it to run at the suggested temperature of 170. Never had problems with mushing or blobby images after that.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:
>
> As indicated in the first post, I DID print onto the vinyl in my first tests. However, I did remove the backing in order to stick the vinyl to a piece of 81/2"x11" printer paper...so I could run it through the printer. Then I placed that, vinyl side against clean copper pcb and paper side up and ironed for 3 minutes. Not all the toner transferred. The problem could lie with the printer not placing enough toner on the vinyl or not enough pressure on the iron. I plan to experiment with both...different printer that I have had better success with and/or more pressure when I iron.
>
>
>
> ---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <earlannis@> wrote:
>
> Don't remove the backing!!! Print on the vinyl! Then place the toner on clean copper, add a piece or two of plain paper as a pad, and iron for 2 minutes at the highest or cotton setting.
>
>
> Air cool for a minute or two and peel the vinyl from the copper.
>
> Earl Hancock
>
> on Oct 21, 2013, AlienRelics <alienrelics@> wrote:
> That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.
>
> Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.
> >
> > I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
> >
> > My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?
> >
>

RE: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-11-04 by <twgray2007@...>

For all the comments, insight, and help this group has been, I feel compelled to share my sucess using the toner transfer pcb method.

After testing all the ideas and methods mentioned in this list for the past few years I finally came up with a method that works 100% of the time, with 100% toner transfer to copper, and virtually perfect traces and pads everytime. This is not a fluke...I've had many of those, as well as many failures.

My method uses adhesive backed vinyl made for silhouette cutters. labelled Premium Vinyl (white) and purchased from Michael's Crafts. I use a GBC personal laminator, modifed as per the Pulsar website (changed one of the thermostats). To get the perfect transfer, I also use the 0.032" pcb, purchased from Pulsar, but available many places. Using this half-thickness board and passing it through the laminator 10 times, 5 in each direction, either x or y. I then place the (very hot) board/vinyl combo in the freezer for 20 minutes. At that point, the vinyl peels off, leaving 100% of the toner on the board. No clay residuals like I have with almost any type paper, other than the Pulsar or Chinese stuff. Perfect, clean, sharp tracks and pads.

The only downside is that if I use standard FR4, 0.064" copper-clad with this laminator I get flattened, bleeding tracks and pads, as described elsewhere in this topic. So, that is still a work in progress.

I hope this helps someone along the way.

---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <doug.forbes@...> wrote:

Thanks

Doug

---In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:
>
> As indicated in the first post, I DID print onto the vinyl in my first tests. However, I did remove the backing in order to stick the vinyl to a piece of 81/2"x11" printer paper...so I could run it through the printer. Then I placed that, vinyl side against clean copper pcb and paper side up and ironed for 3 minutes. Not all the toner transferred. The problem could lie with the printer not placing enough toner on the vinyl or not enough pressure on the iron. I plan to experiment with both...different printer that I have had better success with and/or more pressure when I iron.
>
>
>
> ---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <earlannis@> wrote:
>
> Don't remove the backing!!! Print on the vinyl! Then place the toner on clean copper, add a piece or two of plain paper as a pad, and iron for 2 minutes at the highest or cotton setting.
>
>
> Air cool for a minute or two and peel the vinyl from the copper.
>
> Earl Hancock
>
> on Oct 21, 2013, AlienRelics <alienrelics@> wrote:
> That is a rather odd surface to use. But worth a try.
>
> Have you tried using the backing? Remove the vinyl, and print onto the slippery side of the backing, then press than onto the PCB.
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> One of the few who still signs his messages, apparently...
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments on my question about P1006 printers. I now have another question about using vinyl for toner transfer.
> >
> > I purchased a roll of vinyl used in the Cricut machine to test for toner transfer. Surprisingly, it actually worked better than anything I've tried so far in transferring the toner to the pcb, 100% every single time. The only problem I see is that, the toner seems to mash and spread out when it goes through laminator, making the tracks wider with uneven edges. I think because of the compressability of the vinyl, but it could also be the heat making it bleed. I haven't tried using an iron to see if it yields the same results.
> >
> > My question is: is anyone else using vinyl for TT, and if so, have they seen the same problem with mashing problem? Is there a fix?
> >
>

Re: Using vinyl for toner transfer?

2013-11-04 by AlienRelics

That's fantastic! I've linked to this message in Links/Toner_Transfer to make it simpler to find in the future.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <twgray2007@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> For all the comments, insight, and help this group has been, I feel compelled to share my sucess using the toner transfer pcb method.  
> 
>  
> 
>  After testing all the ideas and methods mentioned in this list for the past few years I finally came up with a method that works 100% of the time, with 100% toner transfer to copper, and virtually perfect traces and pads everytime.  This is not a fluke...I've had many of those, as well as many failures.
>  
> 
>  My method uses adhesive backed vinyl made for silhouette cutters. labelled Premium Vinyl (white) and purchased from Michael's Crafts.  I use a GBC personal laminator, modifed as per the Pulsar website (changed one of the thermostats).  To get the perfect transfer, I also use the 0.032" pcb, purchased from Pulsar, but available many places.  Using this half-thickness board and passing it through the laminator 10 times, 5 in each direction, either x or y.  I then place the (very hot) board/vinyl combo in the freezer for 20 minutes.  At that point, the vinyl peels off, leaving 100% of the toner on the board.  No clay residuals like I have with almost any type paper, other than the Pulsar or Chinese stuff.  Perfect, clean, sharp tracks and pads.
> 
>  
> 
>  The only downside is that if I use standard FR4, 0.064" copper-clad with this laminator I get flattened, bleeding tracks and pads, as described elsewhere in this topic.  So, that is still a work in progress.
>  
> 
>  I hope this helps someone along the way.
> 
>