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Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-09 by <myclaw86@...>

I have never owned or really experimented with laser printers, so forgive my inquiry:


I can source Epson inkjet photo paper (unsure of exact paper numbers, I don't have it on hand). I have access to an OKI C3200n laser printer, which I really don't want to ruin.

How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?

I tried at the weekend to do a toner transfer using ordinary office/copier paper, but in case that would work ok (my first ever) and it was "close, but no cigar" - some toner left the paper and stuck to the copper (it took some effort to rub off again!) but not enough to etch with.

I read about magazine paper but am a bit of a wuss and don't want to put thin paper smaller than A4 through someone else's printer really. Exactly what paper are we talking here? Glossy, front cover of FHM? Or Lidl weekly offers flyer (which could be nicely cut down to A4 size). I am in the UK - any suggestions readily received.

I have checked the group database and saw a few Epson entries, and some HP entries that were inkjet paper. I just want to check I'm not going to wreck this printer by putting in inkjet photo paper!

Sorry for the essay. Thanks for any guidance!

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-11 by Harvey White

On 09 Oct 2013 11:05:30 -0700, you wrote:

>I have never owned or really experimented with laser printers, so forgive my inquiry:
>
>
> I can source Epson inkjet photo paper (unsure of exact paper numbers, I don't have it on hand). I have access to an OKI C3200n laser printer, which I really don't want to ruin.
>
>
> How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?
>

I don't know that it will, I don't know that it won't. I do know that
the laser film is pretty much guaranteed not to.
>
> I tried at the weekend to do a toner transfer using ordinary office/copier paper, but in case that would work ok (my first ever) and it was "close, but no cigar" - some toner left the paper and stuck to the copper (it took some effort to rub off again!) but not enough to etch with.
>
>
> I read about magazine paper but am a bit of a wuss and don't want to put thin paper smaller than A4 through someone else's printer really. Exactly what paper are we talking here? Glossy, front cover of FHM? Or Lidl weekly offers flyer (which could be nicely cut down to A4 size). I am in the UK - any suggestions readily received.
>

There's a technique you can use for smaller boards.

for toner transfer (I use the pulsar paper), I print the board outline
on a piece of regular paper. I then draw straight lines out
continuing the board outline. I cut a piece of pulsar paper (you
could use magazine glossy paper if you want, whatever works...., and
no experience here) that is about 1/2 inch bigger than the board
outline and center it on the outline. I fasten it in place with a
slice of laser printer label. That'll withstand the heat.

Feed it through again, with the taped end going in first.

That works well, never had a problem with paper coming off, don't use
the whole sheet of paper.

Remove carefully, sometimes it tears the paper a bit, you could cut it
off if you wanted, then use the printed on paper....

Don't have to use the full sheet.

Harvey

Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I have checked the group database and saw a few Epson entries, and some HP entries that were inkjet paper. I just want to check I'm not going to wreck this printer by putting in inkjet photo paper!
>
>
> Sorry for the essay. Thanks for any guidance!

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-11 by Jim

Inkjet paper, particularly the inkjet paper made for photo printing, has a clay-coated surface that's almost but not completely waterproof. It has enough absorbency so that the water-based ink will adhere and soak in a few microns, and then dry swiftly.

Since toner is plastic-based, it adheres to the clay surface but not very well. When it's soaked in water, the clay surface separates easily, and anything that the toner is already stuck to will adhere to that, and not to the inkjet paper.

I need to test this again, since I have an old inkjet printer and some photo-grade paper for it; and a brand-new laser printer.

The last time I tried this (1994??) I had less than perfect results, but it kind of worked.

73
Jim N6OTQ
Show quoted textHide quoted text


On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:50 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>
> How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-12 by Eldon Brown

myclaw86,

Here are some notes for my demonstration that I put together several years ago. I have been making Homebrew PCB for more than 10 years.

See:

and maybe the following:




Regards,
Eldon Brown

73 - Eldon - WA0UWH - CN88xc - http://WA0UWH.blogspot.com/




Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, <myclaw86@...> wrote:

I have never owned or really experimented with laser printers, so forgive my inquiry:


I can source Epson inkjet photo paper (unsure of exact paper numbers, I don't have it on hand). I have access to an OKI C3200n laser printer, which I really don't want to ruin.

How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?

I tried at the weekend to do a toner transfer using ordinary office/copier paper, but in case that would work ok (my first ever) and it was "close, but no cigar" - some toner left the paper and stuck to the copper (it took some effort to rub off again!) but not enough to etch with.

I read about magazine paper but am a bit of a wuss and don't want to put thin paper smaller than A4 through someone else's printer really. Exactly what paper are we talking here? Glossy, front cover of FHM? Or Lidl weekly offers flyer (which could be nicely cut down to A4 size). I am in the UK - any suggestions readily received.

I have checked the group database and saw a few Epson entries, and some HP entries that were inkjet paper. I just want to check I'm not going to wreck this printer by putting in inkjet photo paper!

Sorry for the essay. Thanks for any guidance!


Express PCB

2013-10-12 by Jack Schmidling

I just finished laying out my latest project using Express PCB but can't
figure out how to print it to the correct size. It prints out about
half the actual size and is useless. I made a screen print and adjusted
this in another program but that should not be necessary.

The only option I see to print the layers is the PRINT tab but there are
no size options.

What am I missing?

jack

--


Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

http://schmidling.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-12 by Jack Schmidling

I sent this yesterday and it never showed up and I think it's because I
used a different from address....



Don't know anything about inkjet paper but in my limited experience, all
papers that I have tried require that the paper nearly be dissolved to
get it off the board. I find the magazine pages work the best but are
the hardest to get off.

On the other hand, PnP pulls off with no more than cooling the board in
water but I have not made a good board yet using it.

The only material I have found that literally falls off the board is
USPS mailing label backing. I have made nearly perfect boards with this
stuff but perfect eludes me.

I don't imagine that PO labels are unique but they are free and about
the right size for my stuff.

Anyone have any thoughts on this,

Jack



--


Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

http://schmidling.com

Re: Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-12 by Jim

I don't think the clay will melt and stick to the printer (Fuser), but the toner will... if it's laid down really wide and thick. I've had this happen when printing large letters to use as a woodworking pattern. Difficult to remove the paper wound around the fuser in my Lexmark 4039 10+.

Years ago, I learned not to use copy machine rated overhead transparency material in an HP laser printer. VERY difficult to remove melted plastic from a fuser roller.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>
> Inkjet paper, particularly the inkjet paper made for photo printing, has a clay-coated surface that's almost but not completely waterproof. It has enough absorbency so that the water-based ink will adhere and soak in a few microns, and then dry swiftly.
>
> Since toner is plastic-based, it adheres to the clay surface but not very well. When it's soaked in water, the clay surface separates easily, and anything that the toner is already stuck to will adhere to that, and not to the inkjet paper.

> Jim N6OTQ
>
>
> On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:50 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
> >
> >> How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?
> >

RE: Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-14 by <beefyzee@...>

Today I tried the often mentioned HP Everyday Photo Paper (it's inkjet paper). It seemed to go through my Fuji Xerox laser without any of the coating coming off BUT it did not work like I've heard it would when I tried to iron the toner onto the copper.

I'd heard that this paper just melts when you put it in water afterwards. Maybe it did at one point but it doesn't any more. BOTH sides of the paper seem to have a glue-like durable plastic coating that is waterproof and sticks to the copper like strong glue.

I believe my Fuji laser printer uses a lower toner temperature than other laser printers, supposedly new technology to save energy by requiring a lower drum temperature. Other lasers may be more at risk if their drum temperatures are higher. I've heard Brother toner melts at a higher temperature than most others so maybe they have the highest drum temperatures of all (this is all guesswork) and run the most risk of getting this plastic coating melting on the drum.

From what I've heard on various forums these coatings do get sticky when heat is applied, so I'd guess there is a risk of it sticking to a laser printers drum.

After one try of the toner transfer method (today, complete disaster), I'm focussing my efforts on the UV exposure method. I've heard enough stories of hit and miss success with toner transfer, but lots of stories of good repeatable quality using the UV method. Seems all the planets have to be aligned to get it right with TT, right printer/toner, right paper/transfer sheet, correct heat, correct pressure, even pressure, well prepared copper surface.

Sorry I'm very would up and frustrated after my first attempt today LOL.

Keith.



Show quoted textHide quoted text
---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <wb8nbs@...> wrote:

I don't think the clay will melt and stick to the printer (Fuser), but the toner will... if it's laid down really wide and thick. I've had this happen when printing large letters to use as a woodworking pattern. Difficult to remove the paper wound around the fuser in my Lexmark 4039 10+.

Years ago, I learned not to use copy machine rated overhead transparency material in an HP laser printer. VERY difficult to remove melted plastic from a fuser roller.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>
> Inkjet paper, particularly the inkjet paper made for photo printing, has a clay-coated surface that's almost but not completely waterproof. It has enough absorbency so that the water-based ink will adhere and soak in a few microns, and then dry swiftly.
>
> Since toner is plastic-based, it adheres to the clay surface but not very well. When it's soaked in water, the clay surface separates easily, and anything that the toner is already stuck to will adhere to that, and not to the inkjet paper.

> Jim N6OTQ
>
>
> On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:50 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
> >
> >> How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE: Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-15 by Jack Schmidling

> Sorry I'm very would up and frustrated after my first attempt today LOL.
>
> Keith.

I know the feeling. I have made two good boards to date and it seems
like playing craps or nailing Jello to a wall. Doing exactly the same
thing twice is nearly impossible when using the iron technique.

Yesterday I made a perfect board after about 6 attempts using label
backing and PnP. The last attempt was PnP and it worked. My previous
good board was made using magazine paper. Removing the paper was a
tedious task that I do not wish to repeat so PnP and label backing are
the only options I am interested in.

I too am thinking about going to the photo process but wanted to give
this a try first as it is so much simpler.

Seems like the major problem is pressure and temp during the transfer
and a laminator may be a good idea but I don't want to invest in
something that I have no other use for.

I started using an IR thermometer to monitor the board temp as opposed
to iron setting and time and pressure. After some experimenting, it
seems like around 300F is a good number for PnP and label backing. It
is pretty easy just to scan the surface regularly to get the actual
board temp than to guess at time and iron temp. There is lots of
experimenting to do here but I have not heard of anyone else doing this
and you might give it a try. It at least takes the guess work out that
part of the equation.

Jack




Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

http://schmidling.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE: Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-15 by Harvey White

On 13 Oct 2013 23:47:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Today I tried the often mentioned HP Everyday Photo Paper (it's inkjet paper). It seemed to go through my Fuji Xerox laser without any of the coating coming off BUT it did not work like I've heard it would when I tried to iron the toner onto the copper.
>
> I'd heard that this paper just melts when you put it in water afterwards. Maybe it did at one point but it doesn't any more. BOTH sides of the paper seem to have a glue-like durable plastic coating that is waterproof and sticks to the copper like strong glue.

I've had the same kind of experience with some photo papers. The
plastic layer does not help.

>
> I believe my Fuji laser printer uses a lower toner temperature than other laser printers, supposedly new technology to save energy by requiring a lower drum temperature. Other lasers may be more at risk if their drum temperatures are higher. I've heard Brother toner melts at a higher temperature than most others so maybe they have the highest drum temperatures of all (this is all guesswork) and run the most risk of getting this plastic coating melting on the drum.

If you use a clay coated paper, it may work better, often it's a
question of what and when for paper.

I happen to use Pulsar paper (PC FAB in a Box stuff, blue, with a
dextrose layer that dissolves in water). Works well for me

>
> From what I've heard on various forums these coatings do get sticky when heat is applied, so I'd guess there is a risk of it sticking to a laser printers drum.

not the drum, the fuser roller


>
> After one try of the toner transfer method (today, complete disaster), I'm focussing my efforts on the UV exposure method. I've heard enough stories of hit and miss success with toner transfer, but lots of stories of good repeatable quality using the UV method. Seems all the planets have to be aligned to get it right with TT, right printer/toner, right paper/transfer sheet, correct heat, correct pressure, even pressure, well prepared copper surface.

there are different parameters to play with, yes.

1200 DPI printer is best, I use a GBC creative laminator. Works well
for thin (0.020) boards. I do two of them back to back for double
sided.

I run the board through 8 times (I use an HP 2100 printer), 4 one side
up, four one side down. I also use the green foil to seal the top,
seems to help.

Harvey

Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Sorry I'm very would up and frustrated after my first attempt today LOL.
>
> Keith.
>
>
>---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <wb8nbs@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think the clay will melt and stick to the printer (Fuser), but the toner will... if it's laid down really wide and thick. I've had this happen when printing large letters to use as a woodworking pattern. Difficult to remove the paper wound around the fuser in my Lexmark 4039 10+.
>
>Years ago, I learned not to use copy machine rated overhead transparency material in an HP laser printer. VERY difficult to remove melted plastic from a fuser roller.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>>
>> Inkjet paper, particularly the inkjet paper made for photo printing, has a clay-coated surface that's almost but not completely waterproof. It has enough absorbency so that the water-based ink will adhere and soak in a few microns, and then dry swiftly.
>>
>> Since toner is plastic-based, it adheres to the clay surface but not very well. When it's soaked in water, the clay surface separates easily, and anything that the toner is already stuck to will adhere to that, and not to the inkjet paper.
>
>> Jim N6OTQ
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:50 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?
>> >

RE: Inkjet photo paper in laser printer - will it melt?

2013-10-15 by <beefyzee@...>

Hmmm, yes I've heard a few times people have had more success with a laminator. Another star to be aligned LOL.


Here's a couple of other things I've heard regarding prepping the copper. One guy said don't use acetone to clean it or the toner won't stick, use alchohol instead. Then I've heard don't use tissue because it contains stuff that cause the toner not to stick (silicone ?).


Well here's a wild method I heard of prepping the copper after you've gave it a scrub with whatever to clean it up. Give the bare board a very brief etch then immediately dunk it in water. The theory was the etchant cleans and "mats" the surface and gives a very good surface for the toner to stick to. When I stop sulking about my dissastrous first attempt I might give it another go.


For now though my UV box (nail curer) is on its way together with some Kinsten PCB and developer. From what I Googled nail curing works at around 365 nm wavelength and that's what these lamps operate at (in the unit I'm buying). Cost me $20 and has four 9w lamps in it. I'm going to strip it down and make a UV box from the parts. A set of four spare tubes is $12 but if my attempts are successful I'll probably just by one or two more complete units so I can expand the working area of the UV box. Depending on the circuitry, if I can isolate the individual lamps then I might have switches for each pair so I only power up what's needed for the size of the PCB.


Keith.



Show quoted textHide quoted text
---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <madyn@...> wrote:

On 13 Oct 2013 23:47:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Today I tried the often mentioned HP Everyday Photo Paper (it's inkjet paper). It seemed to go through my Fuji Xerox laser without any of the coating coming off BUT it did not work like I've heard it would when I tried to iron the toner onto the copper.
>
> I'd heard that this paper just melts when you put it in water afterwards. Maybe it did at one point but it doesn't any more. BOTH sides of the paper seem to have a glue-like durable plastic coating that is waterproof and sticks to the copper like strong glue.

I've had the same kind of experience with some photo papers. The
plastic layer does not help.

>
> I believe my Fuji laser printer uses a lower toner temperature than other laser printers, supposedly new technology to save energy by requiring a lower drum temperature. Other lasers may be more at risk if their drum temperatures are higher. I've heard Brother toner melts at a higher temperature than most others so maybe they have the highest drum temperatures of all (this is all guesswork) and run the most risk of getting this plastic coating melting on the drum.

If you use a clay coated paper, it may work better, often it's a
question of what and when for paper.

I happen to use Pulsar paper (PC FAB in a Box stuff, blue, with a
dextrose layer that dissolves in water). Works well for me

>
> From what I've heard on various forums these coatings do get sticky when heat is applied, so I'd guess there is a risk of it sticking to a laser printers drum.

not the drum, the fuser roller


>
> After one try of the toner transfer method (today, complete disaster), I'm focussing my efforts on the UV exposure method. I've heard enough stories of hit and miss success with toner transfer, but lots of stories of good repeatable quality using the UV method. Seems all the planets have to be aligned to get it right with TT, right printer/toner, right paper/transfer sheet, correct heat, correct pressure, even pressure, well prepared copper surface.

there are different parameters to play with, yes.

1200 DPI printer is best, I use a GBC creative laminator. Works well
for thin (0.020) boards. I do two of them back to back for double
sided.

I run the board through 8 times (I use an HP 2100 printer), 4 one side
up, four one side down. I also use the green foil to seal the top,
seems to help.

Harvey

>
> Sorry I'm very would up and frustrated after my first attempt today LOL.
>
> Keith.
>
>
>---In homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com, <wb8nbs@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think the clay will melt and stick to the printer (Fuser), but the toner will... if it's laid down really wide and thick. I've had this happen when printing large letters to use as a woodworking pattern. Difficult to remove the paper wound around the fuser in my Lexmark 4039 10+.
>
>Years ago, I learned not to use copy machine rated overhead transparency material in an HP laser printer. VERY difficult to remove melted plastic from a fuser roller.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>>
>> Inkjet paper, particularly the inkjet paper made for photo printing, has a clay-coated surface that's almost but not completely waterproof. It has enough absorbency so that the water-based ink will adhere and soak in a few microns, and then dry swiftly.
>>
>> Since toner is plastic-based, it adheres to the clay surface but not very well. When it's soaked in water, the clay surface separates easily, and anything that the toner is already stuck to will adhere to that, and not to the inkjet paper.
>
>> Jim N6OTQ
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:50 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> How do you know if the paper will melt in the printer - or is this an urban myth?! Obviously a laser printer heats the drum and the paper is passed over the drum, so there is potential for a sticky mess?
>> >