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2013-08-15 by Jeff Heiss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfCatc1HieE This gentleman turned an inkjet printer into a wax printer. He removed the ink reservoir and attached a heated reservoir to hold the wax. View 44:45 to 46:55 to see the results. I feel the problems he encountered could be reduced or eliminated if the head was heated too. It looks really interesting. What do you think? Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2013-08-15 by Mark Lerman
I spent a lot of time both with a Phaser wax printer and with direct printing of resist using an Epson printer. While wax is a great resist, the Phaser was impossibly difficult to modify and more importantly, the Phaser firmware had it cleaning the printhead and drum many times. Apparently the wax causes a lot of clog problems. Likewise the Epson printer. The ink clogs the nozzles on a regular basis, requiring a lot of cleaning to keep the nozzles clear. You end up spending way more time screwing around with the printer than doing anything useful. What might work very well is using a 3D printer to deposit plastic on the pcb directly. I have a 3D printer and will try it and post the results. If it works, a relatively simple XY table could be easily implemented, or you can purchase one of the really inexpensive 3D printer kits. As a bonus, it could also drill holes. And, if one wants to get truly creative you might be able to print conductive material directly on FR4, eliminating the etch. Most of the 3D printers can accommodate a heated bed that can "cure" conductive inks. Of course, if you are building a cnc, you might want to use it to route the pcbs and be done with it. I also have a pretty good cnc mill designed for pcbs. I don't use it much because it is slow, noisy, requires multiple tool changes, creates a lot of dust (use a vacuum system), and often produces defective boards, mainly because the pcb has to either be held very flat, or be "mapped", requiring even more sophisticated equipment ($$$). Mark At 10:50 PM 8/14/2013, you wrote:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfCatc1HieE > > > >This gentleman turned an inkjet printer into a wax printer. He removed the >ink reservoir and attached a heated reservoir to hold the wax. View 44:45 >to 46:55 to see the results. I feel the problems he encountered could be >reduced or eliminated if the head was heated too. It looks really >interesting. What do you think? > > > >Jeff > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-15 by Rick Sparber
Mark, Using a 3D printer to apply a mask is an interesting idea. I think the PCB would have to be kept warm so the plastic sticks. After etching, how would you get the plastic off or would you just leave it? I suspect it would contaminate the solder joints if left too close to the holes. Rick
-----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Lerman Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:17 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer I spent a lot of time both with a Phaser wax printer and with direct printing of resist using an Epson printer. While wax is a great resist, the Phaser was impossibly difficult to modify and more importantly, the Phaser firmware had it cleaning the printhead and drum many times. Apparently the wax causes a lot of clog problems. Likewise the Epson printer. The ink clogs the nozzles on a regular basis, requiring a lot of cleaning to keep the nozzles clear. You end up spending way more time screwing around with the printer than doing anything useful. What might work very well is using a 3D printer to deposit plastic on the pcb directly. I have a 3D printer and will try it and post the results. If it works, a relatively simple XY table could be easily implemented, or you can purchase one of the really inexpensive 3D printer kits. As a bonus, it could also drill holes. And, if one wants to get truly creative you might be able to print conductive material directly on FR4, eliminating the etch. Most of the 3D printers can accommodate a heated bed that can "cure" conductive inks. Of course, if you are building a cnc, you might want to use it to route the pcbs and be done with it. I also have a pretty good cnc mill designed for pcbs. I don't use it much because it is slow, noisy, requires multiple tool changes, creates a lot of dust (use a vacuum system), and often produces defective boards, mainly because the pcb has to either be held very flat, or be "mapped", requiring even more sophisticated equipment ($$$). Mark
2013-08-15 by Mark Lerman
Rick, A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, which you can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. Mark At 09:36 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote:
>Mark, > >Using a 3D printer to apply a mask is an interesting idea. I think the PCB >would have to be kept warm so the plastic sticks. After etching, how would >you get the plastic off or would you just leave it? I suspect it would >contaminate the solder joints if left too close to the holes. > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:17 AM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > >I spent a lot of time both with a Phaser wax printer and with direct >printing of resist using an Epson printer. While wax is a great resist, the >Phaser was impossibly difficult to modify and more importantly, the Phaser >firmware had it cleaning the printhead and drum many times. Apparently the >wax causes a lot of clog problems. >Likewise the Epson printer. The ink clogs the nozzles on a regular basis, >requiring a lot of cleaning to keep the nozzles clear. You end up spending >way more time screwing around with the printer than doing anything useful. > >What might work very well is using a 3D printer to deposit plastic on the >pcb directly. I have a 3D printer and will try it and post the results. If >it works, a relatively simple XY table could be easily implemented, or you >can purchase one of the really inexpensive 3D printer kits. As a bonus, it >could also drill holes. And, if one wants to get truly creative you might be >able to print conductive material directly on FR4, eliminating the etch. >Most of the 3D printers can accommodate a heated bed that can "cure" >conductive inks. > >Of course, if you are building a cnc, you might want to use it to route the >pcbs and be done with it. I also have a pretty good cnc mill designed for >pcbs. I don't use it much because it is slow, noisy, requires multiple tool >changes, creates a lot of dust (use a vacuum system), and often produces >defective boards, mainly because the pcb has to either be held very flat, or >be "mapped", requiring even more sophisticated equipment ($$$). > >Mark > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-15 by Rick Sparber
Mark, Sounds like removal is not an issue. How liquid tight would the 3D mask be? Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the mask, I wonder what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What would be very cool is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of fiberglass. I recall an old process that could put down fine wire and cover it with glue. Rick
-----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Lerman Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer Rick, A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, which you can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. Mark
2013-08-15 by Mark Lerman
Silver inks are expensive, but copper inks are much less expensive and are available commercially. Multiple layers are readily achieved with a 3D printer. The machine I have (Ultimaker) uses a Bowden tube to carry the plastic filament to the printhead. This could easily be modified to carry liquid ink. I think the real problems would be things like soldering and mounting components to these inks. It might be workable, though, and would be an interesting way to spend a few months. Mark At 10:00 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote:
>Mark, > >Sounds like removal is not an issue. > >How liquid tight would the 3D mask be? > >Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the mask, I wonder >what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What would be very cool >is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of fiberglass. I >recall an old process that could put down fine wire and cover it with glue. > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > >Rick, > >A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. >But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. >I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic >I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, which you >can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by >switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. > >Mark > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-15 by Jeff Heiss
What kind of resolution can a 3D printer achieve? Would the resolution be enough for PCBs? Jeff
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:50 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer Rick, A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, which you can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. Mark At 09:36 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: >Mark, > >Using a 3D printer to apply a mask is an interesting idea. I think the PCB >would have to be kept warm so the plastic sticks. After etching, how would >you get the plastic off or would you just leave it? I suspect it would >contaminate the solder joints if left too close to the holes. > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:17 AM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > >I spent a lot of time both with a Phaser wax printer and with direct >printing of resist using an Epson printer. While wax is a great resist, the >Phaser was impossibly difficult to modify and more importantly, the Phaser >firmware had it cleaning the printhead and drum many times. Apparently the >wax causes a lot of clog problems. >Likewise the Epson printer. The ink clogs the nozzles on a regular basis, >requiring a lot of cleaning to keep the nozzles clear. You end up spending >way more time screwing around with the printer than doing anything useful. > >What might work very well is using a 3D printer to deposit plastic on the >pcb directly. I have a 3D printer and will try it and post the results. If >it works, a relatively simple XY table could be easily implemented, or you >can purchase one of the really inexpensive 3D printer kits. As a bonus, it >could also drill holes. And, if one wants to get truly creative you might be >able to print conductive material directly on FR4, eliminating the etch. >Most of the 3D printers can accommodate a heated bed that can "cure" >conductive inks. > >Of course, if you are building a cnc, you might want to use it to route the >pcbs and be done with it. I also have a pretty good cnc mill designed for >pcbs. I don't use it much because it is slow, noisy, requires multiple tool >changes, creates a lot of dust (use a vacuum system), and often produces >defective boards, mainly because the pcb has to either be held very flat, or >be "mapped", requiring even more sophisticated equipment ($$$). > >Mark > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2013-08-15 by Mark Lerman
Jeff, I think the actual resolution of the xy mechanism is more than adequate. The nozzle is .4 mm, but they say you can print "walls" half the nozzle size, so .2mm = .008 inches. You can, of course, buy or make smaller nozzles. .2mm seems readily available, which should make .004 traces. Hopefully I'll have some time in the next few days to experiment. The machine uses a version of gcode, so it should be possible to make it work with Eagle in some way. Mark At 10:55 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote:
>What kind of resolution can a 3D printer achieve? Would the >resolution be enough for PCBs? > >Jeff > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:50 AM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > >Rick, > > A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. > But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. > I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the > plastic I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, > Tetrahydrofuran, which you can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also > supposed to work. However, by switching to ABS, you can use acetone > to dissolve the plastic easily. > > Mark > > At 09:36 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > >Mark, > > > >Using a 3D printer to apply a mask is an interesting idea. I think the PCB > >would have to be kept warm so the plastic sticks. After etching, how would > >you get the plastic off or would you just leave it? I suspect it would > >contaminate the solder joints if left too close to the holes. > > > >Rick > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:17 AM > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > > >I spent a lot of time both with a Phaser wax printer and with direct > >printing of resist using an Epson printer. While wax is a great resist, the > >Phaser was impossibly difficult to modify and more importantly, the Phaser > >firmware had it cleaning the printhead and drum many times. Apparently the > >wax causes a lot of clog problems. > >Likewise the Epson printer. The ink clogs the nozzles on a regular basis, > >requiring a lot of cleaning to keep the nozzles clear. You end up spending > >way more time screwing around with the printer than doing anything useful. > > > >What might work very well is using a 3D printer to deposit plastic on the > >pcb directly. I have a 3D printer and will try it and post the results. If > >it works, a relatively simple XY table could be easily implemented, or you > >can purchase one of the really inexpensive 3D printer kits. As a bonus, it > >could also drill holes. And, if one wants to get truly creative > you might be > >able to print conductive material directly on FR4, eliminating the etch. > >Most of the 3D printers can accommodate a heated bed that can "cure" > >conductive inks. > > > >Of course, if you are building a cnc, you might want to use it to route the > >pcbs and be done with it. I also have a pretty good cnc mill designed for > >pcbs. I don't use it much because it is slow, noisy, requires multiple tool > >changes, creates a lot of dust (use a vacuum system), and often produces > >defective boards, mainly because the pcb has to either be held > very flat, or > >be "mapped", requiring even more sophisticated equipment ($$$). > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-15 by Rick Sparber
Jeff, No straight answer here. What resolution would you want? From Solidoodle, one 3D printer company: Precision: . The resolution of the printed part is typically determined by the height of each layer . Typically we print at a layer height of .3mm, which gives a nice surface finish and quick print time . It's possible to print hi-resolution parts at a layer height of .1mm, which produces top-notch looking prints . Clarification: the precision of the printhead in the horizontal plane (X-Y direction) is about .011mm (about 2300dpi). However, this number is a little superflous because we are extruding ABS plastic through a relatively larger .35mm nozzle, and all ABS plastic oozes a bit. So a more realistic & practical estimate of resolution in the horizontal plane is about .1mm. And to be crystal clear - this creates great prints. Trying to define the resolution more accurately than this is similar to trying to define the position of a garden hose nozzle to within millimeters - it's essentially meaningless since the water is going to expand anyway. Rick
-----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Heiss Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:55 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer What kind of resolution can a 3D printer achieve? Would the resolution be enough for PCBs? Jeff
2013-08-15 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Rick Did a very similar thing 20 years ago using DuPont and Acheson polymer thick film inks. Malcolm I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it! Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin The writing is on the wall. Ha-ktovet al ha-kir -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/15/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 15, 2013, 3:00 PM
Mark,
Sounds like removal is not an issue.
How liquid tight would the 3D mask be?
Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the
mask, I wonder
what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What
would be very cool
is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of
fiberglass. I
recall an old process that could put down fine wire and
cover it with glue.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@...m
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax
printer
Rick,
A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works
pretty well.
But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper
directly.
I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA,
which is the plastic
I've been using, has only one solvent I know of,
Tetrahydrofuran, which you
can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work.
However, by
switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the
plastic easily.
Mark2013-08-15 by Rick Watson
I'm more interested in starting with putting down a resist, then normal etch from there. What's the finest PLA or ABS line the extruders in use today will put down? I've been thinking of messing with putting an extruder and heated bed on my CNC mill anyway. --Rick On 8/15/2013 9:16 AM, Mark Lerman wrote: > > > Silver inks are expensive, but copper inks are much less expensive > and are available commercially. Multiple layers are readily achieved > with a 3D printer. The machine I have (Ultimaker) uses a Bowden tube > to carry the plastic filament to the printhead. This could easily be > modified to carry liquid ink. I think the real problems would be > things like soldering and mounting components to these inks. It might > be workable, though, and would be an interesting way to spend a few > months. > > Mark > > At 10:00 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > >Mark, > > > >Sounds like removal is not an issue. > > > >How liquid tight would the 3D mask be? > > > >Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the mask, I wonder > >what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What would be > very cool > >is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of fiberglass. I > >recall an old process that could put down fine wire and cover it with > glue. > > > >Rick > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>] > >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > > >Rick, > > > >A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. > >But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. > >I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic > >I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, > which you > >can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by > >switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2013-08-15 by Mark Lerman
A good question that I can't answer. I'll post it where someone with a lot more experience can give a more reliable answer. Mark At 01:17 PM 8/15/2013, you wrote:
>I'm more interested in starting with putting down a resist, then normal >etch from there. What's the finest PLA or ABS line the extruders in use >today will put down? I've been thinking of messing with putting an >extruder and heated bed on my CNC mill anyway. > >--Rick > >On 8/15/2013 9:16 AM, Mark Lerman wrote: > > > > > > Silver inks are expensive, but copper inks are much less expensive > > and are available commercially. Multiple layers are readily achieved > > with a 3D printer. The machine I have (Ultimaker) uses a Bowden tube > > to carry the plastic filament to the printhead. This could easily be > > modified to carry liquid ink. I think the real problems would be > > things like soldering and mounting components to these inks. It might > > be workable, though, and would be an interesting way to spend a few > > months. > > > > Mark > > > > At 10:00 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > > >Mark, > > > > > >Sounds like removal is not an issue. > > > > > >How liquid tight would the 3D mask be? > > > > > >Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the mask, I wonder > > >what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What would be > > very cool > > >is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of fiberglass. I > > >recall an old process that could put down fine wire and cover it with > > glue. > > > > > >Rick > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>] > > >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman > > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM > > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > > > > >Rick, > > > > > >A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. > > >But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. > > >I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic > > >I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, > > which you > > >can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by > > >switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. > > > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > > Photos: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-16 by Jeff Heiss
Resolution to do 5mil trace/spacing would be very nice. I'm not very familiar with 3D print heads. Can you recommend any pictures online of what the work end looks like on a print head? Jeff _____
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 12:09 PM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer Jeff, No straight answer here. What resolution would you want? From Solidoodle, one 3D printer company: Precision: . The resolution of the printed part is typically determined by the height of each layer . Typically we print at a layer height of .3mm, which gives a nice surface finish and quick print time . It's possible to print hi-resolution parts at a layer height of .1mm, which produces top-notch looking prints . Clarification: the precision of the printhead in the horizontal plane (X-Y direction) is about .011mm (about 2300dpi). However, this number is a little superflous because we are extruding ABS plastic through a relatively larger .35mm nozzle, and all ABS plastic oozes a bit. So a more realistic & practical estimate of resolution in the horizontal plane is about .1mm. And to be crystal clear - this creates great prints. Trying to define the resolution more accurately than this is similar to trying to define the position of a garden hose nozzle to within millimeters - it's essentially meaningless since the water is going to expand anyway. Rick -----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Jeff Heiss Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:55 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer What kind of resolution can a 3D printer achieve? Would the resolution be enough for PCBs? Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2013-08-16 by Mark Harrison
Hi, The home made 3D printers (Reprap, Makerbot, etc) seem to use an extrusion orifice of between 0.1-0.5mm. Beware this is not necessarily the diameter of the plastic filament left on the substrate as it all depends on the extrusion rate of the plastic and the speed the head moves and the height of the nozzle from the substrate or previous layer. If the extrusion rate is too high for the head speed, or the nozzle height is too low, then the extruded plastic spreads out sideways, making a thicker line. Also adjacent lines may not fully fuse together. Often there is a gap between the two lines on the surface of a substrate (imagine sausages lying next to each other - there will be an air gap between them because sausages are round and the plate is flat). This could lead to undercutting when etching a PCB, leaving rough edges at the ends of tracks. From what I've seen, the finer nozzles clog up regularly and are a pain to clean. Commercial machine can do finer widths, but I've noticed on ABS models I've had made that there are often microscopic voids between layers. It looks like adjacent tracks haven't totally fused or have been laid down too far apart, presumably due to the software cross-hatched fill algorithms. If you have a CNC mill, you could try putting a Rotring pen in the chuck and use it to plot the pattern with water proof drafting ink. I briefly experimented with this idea, however the only ink I had didn't wet the copper surface very well. I think I need to experiment with coatings to promote wetting and adhesion.... Cheers, Mark
-----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Watson Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013 03:17 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer I'm more interested in starting with putting down a resist, then normal etch from there. What's the finest PLA or ABS line the extruders in use today will put down? I've been thinking of messing with putting an extruder and heated bed on my CNC mill anyway. --Rick On 8/15/2013 9:16 AM, Mark Lerman wrote: > > > Silver inks are expensive, but copper inks are much less expensive > and are available commercially. Multiple layers are readily achieved > with a 3D printer. The machine I have (Ultimaker) uses a Bowden tube > to carry the plastic filament to the printhead. This could easily be > modified to carry liquid ink. I think the real problems would be > things like soldering and mounting components to these inks. It might > be workable, though, and would be an interesting way to spend a few > months. > > Mark > > At 10:00 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > >Mark, > > > >Sounds like removal is not an issue. > > > >How liquid tight would the 3D mask be? > > > >Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the mask, I wonder > >what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What would be > very cool > >is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of fiberglass. I > >recall an old process that could put down fine wire and cover it with > glue. > > > >Rick > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>] > >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > > >Rick, > > > >A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. > >But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. > >I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic > >I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, > which you > >can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by > >switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
2013-08-16 by Mark Lerman
Mark, After looking at my machine a bit and getting some negative feedback from the Ultimaker Forum, I suspect you are right. It seems unlikely that the plastic extruder will do well for this application. One guy put a UV laser on his and plotted on a sensitized pcb, but if you are going to do that, you might as well just use a light box and be done with it. I did try and put some plastic on copperclad. It didn't stick when cold, but I suspect it would when hot. However, the first layers on 3D printing are notoriously inconsistent, and I doubt you could make the process work reliably. Perhaps using wax or glue from a glue gun would work better. Mark At 01:36 AM 8/16/2013, you wrote:
>Hi, >The home made 3D printers (Reprap, Makerbot, etc) seem to use an >extrusion orifice of between 0.1-0.5mm. >Beware this is not necessarily the diameter of the plastic filament >left on the substrate as it all depends on the extrusion rate of the >plastic and the speed the head moves and the height of the nozzle >from the substrate or previous layer. If the extrusion rate is too >high for the head speed, or the nozzle height is too low, then the >extruded plastic spreads out sideways, making a thicker line. > >Also adjacent lines may not fully fuse together. Often there is a >gap between the two lines on the surface of a substrate (imagine >sausages lying next to each other - there will be an air gap between >them because sausages are round and the plate is flat). This could >lead to undercutting when etching a PCB, leaving rough edges at the >ends of tracks. > > From what I've seen, the finer nozzles clog up regularly and are a > pain to clean. > >Commercial machine can do finer widths, but I've noticed on ABS >models I've had made that there are often microscopic voids between >layers. It looks like adjacent tracks haven't totally fused or have >been laid down too far apart, presumably due to the software >cross-hatched fill algorithms. > >If you have a CNC mill, you could try putting a Rotring pen in the >chuck and use it to plot the pattern with water proof drafting ink. >I briefly experimented with this idea, however the only ink I had >didn't wet the copper surface very well. I think I need to >experiment with coatings to promote wetting and adhesion.... > >Cheers, >Mark > >-----Original Message----- >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Watson >Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013 03:17 AM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > >I'm more interested in starting with putting down a resist, then normal >etch from there. What's the finest PLA or ABS line the extruders in use >today will put down? I've been thinking of messing with putting an >extruder and heated bed on my CNC mill anyway. > >--Rick > >On 8/15/2013 9:16 AM, Mark Lerman wrote: > > > > > > Silver inks are expensive, but copper inks are much less expensive > > and are available commercially. Multiple layers are readily achieved > > with a 3D printer. The machine I have (Ultimaker) uses a Bowden tube > > to carry the plastic filament to the printhead. This could easily be > > modified to carry liquid ink. I think the real problems would be > > things like soldering and mounting components to these inks. It might > > be workable, though, and would be an interesting way to spend a few > > months. > > > > Mark > > > > At 10:00 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > > >Mark, > > > > > >Sounds like removal is not an issue. > > > > > >How liquid tight would the 3D mask be? > > > > > >Given that a 3D printer gives us a third dimension to the mask, I wonder > > >what else can be done with it on the circuit board. What would be > > very cool > > >is if the 3D printer could form the traces on a piece of fiberglass. I > > >recall an old process that could put down fine wire and cover it with > > glue. > > > > > >Rick > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>] > > >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman > > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:50 AM > > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > > > > >Rick, > > > > > >A heated bed is no real problem - I built one that works pretty well. > > >But I'm not sure the wax won't stick to the copper directly. > > >I hadn't thought about removing the plastic. PLA, which is the plastic > > >I've been using, has only one solvent I know of, Tetrahydrofuran, > > which you > > >can get on ebay. Heated Benzene is also supposed to work. However, by > > >switching to ABS, you can use acetone to dissolve the plastic easily. > > > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > > Photos: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-16 by Mark Lerman
Jeff, Here's some info: <http://wiki.ultimaker.com/Ultimaker_rev.3_assembly:_Extrusion_head> Mark At 10:45 PM 8/15/2013, you wrote:
>Resolution to do 5mil trace/spacing would be very nice. I'm not very >familiar with 3D print heads. Can you recommend any pictures online of what >the work end looks like on a print head? > > > >Jeff > > > > _____ > >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] >On Behalf Of Rick Sparber >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 12:09 PM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > > > > > >Jeff, > >No straight answer here. What resolution would you want? > > From Solidoodle, one 3D printer company: > >Precision: >. The resolution of the printed part is typically determined by the height >of each layer >. Typically we print at a layer height of .3mm, which gives a nice surface >finish and quick print time >. It's possible to print hi-resolution parts at a layer height of .1mm, >which produces top-notch looking prints >. Clarification: the precision of the printhead in the horizontal plane (X-Y >direction) is about .011mm (about 2300dpi). However, this number is a little >superflous because we are extruding ABS plastic through a relatively larger >.35mm nozzle, and all ABS plastic oozes a bit. So a more realistic & >practical estimate of resolution in the horizontal plane is about .1mm. And >to be crystal clear - this creates great prints. Trying to define the >resolution more accurately than this is similar to trying to define the >position of a garden hose nozzle to within millimeters - it's essentially >meaningless since the water is going to expand anyway. > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> >[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com ><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] >On Behalf Of Jeff Heiss >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:55 AM >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> >Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer > >What kind of resolution can a 3D printer achieve? Would the resolution be >enough for PCBs? > >Jeff > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber
This is probably science fiction right now but could be possible soon. Picture a 3D printer able to switch between two materials. One is an insulator and the other a conductor. Combine this printer with a pick and place machine for SMT. Then add a lot of new software. The result would be a machine that could print and populate a 3D circuit volume. This is not a new idea. IBM, back in the '60s IIRC, was making circuit cubes using alumina substrate. The alumina is a good thermal conductor and a good electrical insulator. As you might expect, they got high circuit density and short path lengths. Rick
-----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Lerman Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 5:49 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer Mark, After looking at my machine a bit and getting some negative feedback from the Ultimaker Forum, I suspect you are right. It seems unlikely that the plastic extruder will do well for this application. One guy put a UV laser on his and plotted on a sensitized pcb, but if you are going to do that, you might as well just use a light box and be done with it. I did try and put some plastic on copperclad. It didn't stick when cold, but I suspect it would when hot. However, the first layers on 3D printing are notoriously inconsistent, and I doubt you could make the process work reliably. Perhaps using wax or glue from a glue gun would work better. Mark
2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber
Malcolm, What problems caused you to stop? Rick
-----Original Message----- From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@...m] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:17 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer Rick Did a very similar thing 20 years ago using DuPont and Acheson polymer thick film inks. Malcolm
2013-08-16 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Rick Head hunted, moved to the North of England. Malcolm I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it! Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin The writing is on the wall. Ha-ktovet al ha-kir -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 8/16/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 16, 2013, 5:02 PM
Malcolm,
What problems caused you to stop?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:17 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax
printer
Rick
Did a very similar thing 20 years ago using DuPont and
Acheson polymer thick film inks.
Malcolm2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber
Malcolm, Great answer! Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:24 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer
Rick
Head hunted, moved to the North of England.
Malcolm
I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/16/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 16, 2013, 5:02 PM
Malcolm,
What problems caused you to stop?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:17 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] convert inkjet printer into wax printer
Rick
Did a very similar thing 20 years ago using DuPont and Acheson polymer thick film inks.
Malcolm
------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links