Homebrew_PCBs

Hi All!
I would like to know as to how can I print exact replica of PCB on paper? Do I
need any specific application/programme. Ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
With kind regards,
Sudipta Ghose/ VU3TKG
PS: By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual property will be violated!

"By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual property
will be violated!"

You may want to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Sudipta, VU3TKG
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 9:35 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper

Hi All!
I would like to know as to how can I print exact replica of PCB on paper? Do
I need any specific application/programme. Ideas will be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
With kind regards,
Sudipta Ghose/ VU3TKG
PS: By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual property
will be violated!



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Hi Rick!
Thanks for the link. However, the design was paid for by me and it was
emailed to me. The size went haywire on printing after downloading.
73
SG

On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> "By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual property
> will be violated!"
>
> You may want to read this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity
>
> Rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Sudipta, VU3TKG
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 9:35 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
> Hi All!
> I would like to know as to how can I print exact replica of PCB on paper?
> Do
> I need any specific application/programme. Ideas will be greatly
> appreciated.
> Thanks,
> With kind regards,
> Sudipta Ghose/ VU3TKG
> PS: By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual property
> will be violated!
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



--
One of those ... ...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sudipta,

Let me suggest a simple way to think about this.

Say you developed a PCB layout at great expense and effort. I paid for a
copy and you sent it to me. I had trouble printing it out after downloading
but then fixed the problem. Then I printed out the repaired artwork which is
identical to what you first sold me. How would you feel about me making
copies and selling them without your permission?

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Sudipta Ghose
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:04 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper

Hi Rick!
Thanks for the link. However, the design was paid for by me and it was
emailed to me. The size went haywire on printing after downloading.
73
SG

On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> "By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual
> property will be violated!"
>
> You may want to read this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity
>
> Rick

Rick,
Thanks for the very thought provoking mail.
Now, visualise this. I buy one hobby magazine. They provide a PCB design
with the mag which I want to get fabricated at home. I print the pcb from
the optical media provided with the mag on a tracing paper for making a
film.
Is there anything inappropriate? Kindly enlighten me.
73
SG

On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sudipta,
>
> Let me suggest a simple way to think about this.
>
> Say you developed a PCB layout at great expense and effort. I paid for a
> copy and you sent it to me. I had trouble printing it out after downloading
> but then fixed the problem. Then I printed out the repaired artwork which
> is
> identical to what you first sold me. How would you feel about me making
> copies and selling them without your permission?
>
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Sudipta Ghose
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:04 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
> Hi Rick!
> Thanks for the link. However, the design was paid for by me and it was
> emailed to me. The size went haywire on printing after downloading.
> 73
> SG
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > "By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual
> > property will be violated!"
> >
> > You may want to read this:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity
> >
> > Rick
>
>
>



--
One of those ... ...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SG,

If a hobby magazine provides a PCB layout, then it should be fine to make a
single board for home use. It would not be fair to copy the magazine and
give it out to your friend. Similarly, it would not be fair to make lots of
boards and sell or give them out to friends.

There is something called the "fair use doctrine" which governs such things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Now, there is also something called Copyleft, which I routinely use. You are
free to copy and even sell anything I produce but I don't want you to change
it including but not limited to removing my name.

Rick
Rick.Sparber.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Sudipta Ghose
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:51 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper

Rick,
Thanks for the very thought provoking mail.
Now, visualise this. I buy one hobby magazine. They provide a PCB design
with the mag which I want to get fabricated at home. I print the pcb from
the optical media provided with the mag on a tracing paper for making a
film.
Is there anything inappropriate? Kindly enlighten me.
73
SG

On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sudipta,
>
> Let me suggest a simple way to think about this.
>
> Say you developed a PCB layout at great expense and effort. I paid for
> a copy and you sent it to me. I had trouble printing it out after
> downloading but then fixed the problem. Then I printed out the
> repaired artwork which is identical to what you first sold me. How
> would you feel about me making copies and selling them without your
> permission?
>
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Sudipta Ghose
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:04 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
> Hi Rick!
> Thanks for the link. However, the design was paid for by me and it was
> emailed to me. The size went haywire on printing after downloading.
> 73
> SG
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > "By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual
> > property will be violated!"
> >
> > You may want to read this:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity
> >
> > Rick
>
>
>



--
One of those ... ...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

All,

When a magazine provides a PCB design and builder instructions, the assumption under "fair use" is that one reader can make one copy of the project for personal use. Whether the builder can make more than one copy depends on "how many more" and is a very vague legal construct.

This is where personal ethics come into play. My take is -- if I needed to make more than two copies, then I would be honor-bound to contact the publisher and the author to inquire about the rights necessary to make that many pieces. Generally speaking, I'd likely have some compelling hobbyist reason that furthered the hobby.

For example, 20 years ago in the USA I might have wanted to make 20 or 50 each of a code practice oscillator PCB so that I could teach prospective hams how to solder up a useful project to assist them in earning their ham license.

On the other hand, if I just wanted to make and sell a bunch of PCBs and/or kits based on stealing somebody else's IP -- well, then I would deserve to burn in Hell. Sooner rather than later, too.

Just my USD$0.02.

73
Jim N6OTQ

PS -- Most of the developers/authors/publishers whom I have contacted about my making many copies of a project have been very receptive to the idea of a joint venture by which both of us would make some money. So -- ask before you copy.

>________________________________
> From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 2:41 PM
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>
>SG,
>
>If a hobby magazine provides a PCB layout, then it should be fine to make a
>single board for home use. It would not be fair to copy the magazine and
>give it out to your friend. Similarly, it would not be fair to make lots of
>boards and sell or give them out to friends.
>
>There is something called the "fair use doctrine" which governs such things:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
>
>Now, there is also something called Copyleft, which I routinely use. You are
>free to copy and even sell anything I produce but I don't want you to change
>it including but not limited to removing my name.
>
>Rick
>Rick.Sparber.org
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of Sudipta Ghose
>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:51 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>Rick,
>Thanks for the very thought provoking mail.
>Now, visualise this. I buy one hobby magazine. They provide a PCB design
>with the mag which I want to get fabricated at home. I print the pcb from
>the optical media provided with the mag on a tracing paper for making a
>film.
>Is there anything inappropriate? Kindly enlighten me.
>73
>SG
>
>On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Sudipta,
>>
>> Let me suggest a simple way to think about this.
>>
>> Say you developed a PCB layout at great expense and effort. I paid for
>> a copy and you sent it to me. I had trouble printing it out after
>> downloading but then fixed the problem. Then I printed out the
>> repaired artwork which is identical to what you first sold me. How
>> would you feel about me making copies and selling them without your
>> permission?
>>
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> On Behalf Of Sudipta Ghose
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:04 AM
>> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>>
>> Hi Rick!
>> Thanks for the link. However, the design was paid for by me and it was
>> emailed to me. The size went haywire on printing after downloading.
>> 73
>> SG
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > "By such printing of exact replica of PCB nobody's intellectual
>> > property will be violated!"
>> >
>> > You may want to read this:
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity
>> >
>> > Rick
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>One of those ... ...
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:

> All,
>
> When a magazine provides a PCB design and builder instructions, the assumption under "fair use" is

In the USA, PCB layouts are not covered by copyright. See response 6:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnczone_club_house/12775-copyright_circuit_boards_-_legal_discussion.html

Mitch (copyleft fan)

Interesting discussion on cnczone.com. However, I would expect that if a given layout was essential to the operation of a circuit, then it would be included in the patent.

Rick
Copyleft user ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:37 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper

On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
> All,
>
> When a magazine provides a PCB design and builder instructions, the assumption under "fair use" is

In the USA, PCB layouts are not covered by copyright. See response 6:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnczone_club_house/12775-copyright_circuit_boards_-_legal_discussion.html

Mitch (copyleft fan)

Mitch,

Anything and everything developed in the US or for a US company is subject to and potentially covered by US copyright.

If you have any doubts, please try propagating the PCB art for an iPhone. I can give you the company names and points of contact of some good folks in India who'd like stuff like this.

I'll also share your PoC w/ my Apple friends.

HAND

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Mitch Davis <mjd@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:37 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>
>On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> When a magazine provides a PCB design and builder instructions, the assumption under "fair use" is
>
>In the USA, PCB layouts are not covered by copyright. See response 6:
>
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnczone_club_house/12775-copyright_circuit_boards_-_legal_discussion.html
>
>Mitch (copyleft fan)
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Patents are stupid and far too expensive for people like us.

You need to sell millions of units to justify the cost of a patent.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's the way patents are today.


My late father had aone full-blown patent to his name -- a method to encapsulate electrical windings for a fan motor, dated sometime around 1950 or so but owned by his employer (standard practice since Thomas Edison).

Meantime, in the numerical string of patents, and butted up against his patent, there was a guy who invented childrens' games that mostly involved "going fishing" with a magnet on a string suspended from a little stick, trying to lift game pieces from behind a cardboard screen.

"Magnet boy" patented maybe half a dozen games, and I guess some children enjoyed them. If you had a GE fan made in the 1950s, you enjoyed how my dad's single patent made the fan almost totally silent. GE sold millions of these fans.

Dad never saw a dime on the patent, but he didn't care. He did his designing for the love of invention.

At least nowadays, hi-tech companies generally pay bonuses on patents awarded, and put a little plaque in the front lobby for the patent.

Where I work now, though, the patent plaques reflect only THIS YEAR's patents. My peeps invent lotsa stuff, and there's lotsa my peeps.

No, it's not IBM (ecch).

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:43 PM
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>
>Interesting discussion on cnczone.com. However, I would expect that if a given layout was essential to the operation of a circuit, then it would be included in the patent.
>
>Rick
>Copyleft user ;-)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:37 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> When a magazine provides a PCB design and builder instructions, the assumption under "fair use" is
>
>In the USA, PCB layouts are not covered by copyright. See response 6:
>
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnczone_club_house/12775-copyright_circuit_boards_-_legal_discussion.html
>
>Mitch (copyleft fan)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Guys!

Many thanks for the exciting discussion on IPR points.

I have just come across a website of one US entity which says the following
about copying a printed circuit board:

"One common misconception about reverse engineering printed circuit boards,
is that it�s the same as copying. It�s not � a reverse engineered PC board
is *electronically* identical to the original PCB, but it�s not a copy or a
clone."

http://www.armisteadtechnologies.com/copy-pcb.shtml

They are located just north of Baltimore, Maryland in USA..

They are business people while I am a radio amateur with avowed principle
of having no interest in any pecuniary benefit from the hobby.

Kind regards,

73
SG
--
One of those ... ...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guessed IBM. What company?



Jeff

_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 8:20 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper





Patents are stupid and far too expensive for people like us.

You need to sell millions of units to justify the cost of a patent.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's the way patents are
today.

My late father had aone full-blown patent to his name -- a method to
encapsulate electrical windings for a fan motor, dated sometime around 1950
or so but owned by his employer (standard practice since Thomas Edison).

Meantime, in the numerical string of patents, and butted up against his
patent, there was a guy who invented childrens' games that mostly involved
"going fishing" with a magnet on a string suspended from a little stick,
trying to lift game pieces from behind a cardboard screen.

"Magnet boy" patented maybe half a dozen games, and I guess some children
enjoyed them. If you had a GE fan made in the 1950s, you enjoyed how my
dad's single patent made the fan almost totally silent. GE sold millions of
these fans.

Dad never saw a dime on the patent, but he didn't care. He did his
designing for the love of invention.

At least nowadays, hi-tech companies generally pay bonuses on patents
awarded, and put a little plaque in the front lobby for the patent.

Where I work now, though, the patent plaques reflect only THIS YEAR's
patents. My peeps invent lotsa stuff, and there's lotsa my peeps.

No, it's not IBM (ecch).

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@... <mailto:rgsparber%40aol.com> >
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>

>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 6:43 PM
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>
>Interesting discussion on cnczone.com. However, I would expect that if a

given layout was essential to the operation of a circuit, then it would be
included in the patent.

>
>Rick
>Copyleft user ;-)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Mitch Davis

>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:37 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Jim <n6otq@...

<mailto:n6otq%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>> All,
>>
>> When a magazine provides a PCB design and builder instructions, the

assumption under "fair use" is

>
>In the USA, PCB layouts are not covered by copyright. See response 6:
>
>

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnczone_club_house/12775-copyright_circuit_boa
rds_-_legal_discussion.html

>
>Mitch (copyleft fan)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wonder how MPAA or RIAA would react to that statement.

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Sudipta Ghose <oneghose@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 8:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>
>Hi Guys!
>
>Many thanks for the exciting discussion on IPR points.
>
>I have just come across a website of one US entity which says the following
>about copying a printed circuit board:
>
>"One common misconception about reverse engineering printed circuit boards,
>is that it’s the same as copying. It’s not – a reverse engineered PC board
>is *electronically* identical to the original PCB, but it’s not a copy or a
>clone."
>
>http://www.armisteadtechnologies.com/copy-pcb.shtml
>
>They are located just north of Baltimore, Maryland in USA..
>
>They are business people while I am a radio amateur with avowed principle
>of having no interest in any pecuniary benefit from the hobby.
>
>Kind regards,
>
>73
>SG
>--
>One of those ... ...
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jim
Interesting reading
Me and a group of friends have back engineered for quite sometime now with some success
Biggest problem we come up with these days is programing of chips because most are protected, but after saying that its all done for personal use and knowledge nothing more.

Regards
Dave




________________________________
From: Jim <n6otq@...>
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 8 August 2013, 13:46
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper




I wonder how MPAA or RIAA would react to that statement.

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Sudipta Ghose <oneghose@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 8:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printing of replica of PCB on paper
>
>
>Hi Guys!
>
>Many thanks for the exciting discussion on IPR points.
>
>I have just come across a website of one US entity which says the following
>about copying a printed circuit board:
>
>"One common misconception about reverse engineering printed circuit boards,
>is that it’s the same as copying. It’s not – a reverse engineered PC board
>is *electronically* identical to the original PCB, but it’s not a copy or a
>clone."
>
>http://www.armisteadtechnologies.com/copy-pcb.shtml
>
>They are located just north of Baltimore, Maryland in USA..
>
>They are business people while I am a radio amateur with avowed principle
>of having no interest in any pecuniary benefit from the hobby.
>
>Kind regards,
>
>73
>SG
>--
>One of those ... ...
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]