Homebrew_PCBs

I live in a small largely agricultural country any chemical is difficult
to obtain (unless it has a household or agricultural use). I'd like to
try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide as an etchant and I can buy
HCl in the hardware store (for cleaning concrete) but H2O2 is a little
more difficult $25 / litre for 35% plus hazardous goods freight from
300Km away. Sodium Percarbonate is cheap and readily available as a
cleaning agent. In solution Sodium Percarbonate becomes sodium carbonate
and hydrogen peroxide. It seems to me that a mixture of hydrochloric
acid and sodium percarbonate would end up as hydrochloric acid, hydrogen
peroxide, salt and carbon dioxide. Has anyone tried percarbonate in this
way as an etchant?

On 7/16/2013 11:40 PM, Kerry Koppert wrote:

>
> I live in a small largely agricultural country any chemical is difficult
> to obtain (unless it has a household or agricultural use). I'd like to
> try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide as an etchant and I can buy
> HCl in the hardware store (for cleaning concrete) but H2O2 is a little
> more difficult $25 / litre for 35% plus hazardous goods freight from
> 300Km away.
>
>
> _

H2O2 is available at 3% concentration in drugstores (pharmacies) as a
topical antiseptic should be cheap - here in the US it's about $0.95 per
pint. It is also available at beauty store suppliers at up to 30 volume
(~12%) concentration as a hair bleach - again, here in the US my last
quart of 30 volume was ~$5.00 . 35_*%*_ sounds dangerously strong -
that might be the reason for the hazmat charge. Earlier etchant
formulations seem to run 1 or 2 pints of 3% H2O2 to 1 pint of 35% HCl
(muriatic acid), if I remember correctly. It would take only a couple
of */ounces/* of the 35% H2O2 to a pint of acid.

Also - for safety, remember that the H2O2 is basically water, and "add
acid to water, just like you ought'er!" . Adding water to the acid can
cause a dangerous exothermic reaction and splash the nasty stuff around
(OK, you all know this, but safety first!).

Norm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 17/07/2013 7:16 p.m., Norm wrote:

>
> On 7/16/2013 11:40 PM, Kerry Koppert wrote:
> >
> > I live in a small largely agricultural country any chemical is difficult
> > to obtain (unless it has a household or agricultural use). I'd like to
> > try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide as an etchant and I can buy
> > HCl in the hardware store (for cleaning concrete) but H2O2 is a little
> > more difficult $25 / litre for 35% plus hazardous goods freight from
> > 300Km away.
> >
> >
> > _
> H2O2 is available at 3% concentration in drugstores (pharmacies) as a
> topical antiseptic should be cheap - here in the US it's about $0.95 per
>

Should is the operative word. In New Zealand make that $9.00 for 200 ml
(about 1/3 of a pint).

>
> pint. It is also available at beauty store suppliers at up to 30 volume
> (~12%) concentration as a hair bleach - again, here in the US my last
> quart of 30 volume was ~$5.00 . 35_*%*_ sounds dangerously strong -
> that might be the reason for the hazmat charge. Earlier etchant
>

35%, 3% still costs the same to transport, I've got plenty of water here
already.

> formulations seem to run 1 or 2 pints of 3% H2O2 to 1 pint of 35% HCl
> (muriatic acid), if I remember correctly. It would take only a couple
> of */ounces/* of the 35% H2O2 to a pint of acid.
>
> Also - for safety, remember that the H2O2 is basically water, and "add
> acid to water, just like you ought'er!" . Adding water to the acid can
> cause a dangerous exothermic reaction and splash the nasty stuff around
> (OK, you all know this, but safety first!).
>
> Norm
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kerry, since you are in NZ - 1 Litre, 35%, $25, and $5 Courier
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/oil-additives/auction-616226654.htm

$30 NZ doesn't sound too bad to me.

(To the international readers, that's about $24 USD)

On 17/07/13 18:40, Kerry Koppert wrote:
>
> I live in a small largely agricultural country any chemical is difficult
> to obtain (unless it has a household or agricultural use). I'd like to
> try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide as an etchant and I can buy
> HCl in the hardware store (for cleaning concrete) but H2O2 is a little
> more difficult $25 / litre for 35% plus hazardous goods freight from
> 300Km away.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 17/07/2013 8:17 p.m., James wrote:

>
> Kerry, since you are in NZ - 1 Litre, 35%, $25, and $5 Courier
> http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/oil-additives/auction-616226654.htm
>

Red face, I had my trademe filter set for Taranaki. Still wish someone
had tried percarbonate

2Na_2 CO_3 .3H_2 O_2 + 4HCl ? 4NaCl + 2H2CO_3 + 3H_2 O_2

>
> $30 NZ doesn't sound too bad to me.
>
> (To the international readers, that's about $24 USD)
>
> On 17/07/13 18:40, Kerry Koppert wrote:
> >
> > I live in a small largely agricultural country any chemical is difficult
> > to obtain (unless it has a household or agricultural use). I'd like to
> > try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide as an etchant and I can buy
> > HCl in the hardware store (for cleaning concrete) but H2O2 is a little
> > more difficult $25 / litre for 35% plus hazardous goods freight from
> > 300Km away.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Still wish someone had tried percarbonate
>
> 2Na_2 CO_3 .3H_2 O_2 + 4HCl ? 4NaCl + 2H2CO_3 + 3H_2 O_2
>

Well, I can think of a good someone to try it! Why don't you give it a go and get back to us with the results.

Good idea, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I'm going to try it
myself, I'm from AUS and H2O2 is just too expensive here

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Kerry Koppert wrote:
>
> I live in a small largely agricultural country any chemical is
difficult
> to obtain (unless it has a household or agricultural use). I'd like to
> try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide as an etchant and I can
buy
> HCl in the hardware store (for cleaning concrete) but H2O2 is a little
> more difficult $25 / litre for 35% plus hazardous goods freight from
> 300Km away. Sodium Percarbonate is cheap and readily available as a
> cleaning agent. In solution Sodium Percarbonate becomes sodium
carbonate
> and hydrogen peroxide. It seems to me that a mixture of hydrochloric
> acid and sodium percarbonate would end up as hydrochloric acid,
hydrogen
> peroxide, salt and carbon dioxide. Has anyone tried percarbonate in
this
> way as an etchant?
>

> jiburat wrote:
>
> Good idea, I see no reason why it wouldn't
> work. I'm going to try it myself, I'm from
> AUS and H2O2 is just too expensive here

Try the hydroponic gardening shops.

The guys that grow smoking tomatoes use 40w/v
H2O2.

Thats where I get mine from. Then Bunnies
have the HCl

The other one that is different in OZ is
sodium carbonate. Other places in the world
tell you to buy it as "driveway salt" for
de-icing your driveway in winter.

I've never seen it sold for that reason in
QLD. You can get that one to develop your
negative photo resist from pool shops as
water hardener.

If you want Sodium Percarbonate here in Oz it is available in most supermarkets as Vanish or Napisan. It comes in 1 & 2 Kg plastic containers.
Colin Lane
Australia 

On 19/07/2013, at 7:04 PM, cunningfellow <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

>> jiburat wrote:
>>
>> Good idea, I see no reason why it wouldn't
>> work. I'm going to try it myself, I'm from
>> AUS and H2O2 is just too expensive here
>
> Try the hydroponic gardening shops.
>
> The guys that grow smoking tomatoes use 40w/v
> H2O2.
>
> Thats where I get mine from. Then Bunnies
> have the HCl
>
> The other one that is different in OZ is
> sodium carbonate. Other places in the world
> tell you to buy it as "driveway salt" for
> de-icing your driveway in winter.
>
> I've never seen it sold for that reason in
> QLD. You can get that one to develop your
> negative photo resist from pool shops as
> water hardener.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have you tried a beauty supply store? At least here in the states, "40 wt" (10%) H2O2 is widely available and relatively inexpensive, as a hair coloring agent.

Since you have lots of beautiful blonde Australian women, it seems to me that peroxide would be readily available downunda.

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: jiburat <jiburat@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:36 PM
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Sodium PerCarbonate
>
>
>Good idea, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I'm going to try it
>myself, I'm from AUS and H2O2 is just too expensive here
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 20/07/2013 9:47 a.m., Jim wrote:

>
> Have you tried a beauty supply store? At least here in the states,
> "40 wt" (10%) H2O2 is widely available and relatively inexpensive, as
> a hair coloring agent.
>
> Since you have lots of beautiful blonde Australian women, it seems to
> me that peroxide would be readily available downunda.
>
> 73
> Jim N6OTQ
>

It seems to have gone out of fashion in New Zealand. 50 years ago you
could buy hydrogen peroxide in a chemist shop (drugstore) or a grocery
store. Now they seem to prefer powder (sodium carbonate?) and it's very
expensive.
Next board I make I'll be trying 10 g of percarbonate in 100 ml of water
plus 100ml of HCl.

> >________________________________
> > From: jiburat <jiburat@... <mailto:jiburat%40yahoo.com.au>>
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:36 PM
> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Sodium PerCarbonate
> >
> >
> >Good idea, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I'm going to try it
> >myself, I'm from AUS and H2O2 is just too expensive here
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> Jim wrote:
>>
>> Have you tried a beauty supply store?
>> <SNIP>

> kkoppert wrote:
>
> It seems to have gone out of fashion in
> New Zealand. 50 years ago you could buy
> hydrogen peroxide in a chemist shop
> (drugstore) or a grocery

Beauty Shops in OZ (price attack etc) only
sell pre-mixed hair bleach creams, not the
raw peroxide.

I assume NZ is similar with the hydroponic
shops to OZ though.

Just walk in cough a few times and say "hey
mate the roots on my "tomatoes" are rotting.
Can I have a bottle of peroxide. Is there a
7-11 near here I could so go a pack of tim
tams"

You'll be right :)

In article <ksdvsp+pfup@...>,
cunningfellow <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> Is there a 7-11 near here I could so go a pack of tim tams"

Hmmm, another language to learn!

--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

On 21/07/2013 1:04 a.m., lists wrote:

>
> In article <ksdvsp+pfup@... <mailto:ksdvsp%2Bpfup%40eGroups.com>>,
> cunningfellow <andrewm1973@...
> <mailto:andrewm1973%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
> > Is there a 7-11 near here I could so go a pack of tim tams"
>
> Hmmm, another language to learn!
>

Not another language but another brand (tim-tam = chocolate coated biscuit).

>
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 20/07/2013 5:45 p.m., Kerry Koppert wrote:

>
> On 20/07/2013 9:47 a.m., Jim wrote:
> >
> > Have you tried a beauty supply store? At least here in the states,
> > "40 wt" (10%) H2O2 is widely available and relatively inexpensive, as
> > a hair coloring agent.
> >
> > Since you have lots of beautiful blonde Australian women, it seems to
> > me that peroxide would be readily available downunda.
> >
> > 73
> > Jim N6OTQ
> >
>
> It seems to have gone out of fashion in New Zealand. 50 years ago you
> could buy hydrogen peroxide in a chemist shop (drugstore) or a grocery
> store. Now they seem to prefer powder (sodium carbonate?) and it's very
> expensive.
> Next board I make I'll be trying 10 g of percarbonate in 100 ml of water
> plus 100ml of HCl.
>

OK it worked fine, you need to be a little patient adding acid as the
carbonate releases CO2 initially. Also the toner was getting soft but
this may be because I added too much acid.

>
> > >________________________________
> > > From: jiburat <jiburat@...
> <mailto:jiburat%40yahoo.com.au> <mailto:jiburat%40yahoo.com.au>>
> > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:36 PM
> > >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Sodium PerCarbonate
> > >
> > >
> > >Good idea, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I'm going to try it
> > >myself, I'm from AUS and H2O2 is just too expensive here
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]