Homebrew_PCBs

Hi guys,

After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
which I don't mind paying if it will last.

I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142

Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...

Regards, Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

like slipped a decimal cheap. If it works you index a board and it drills all the holes.






________________________________
From: Stephen Farthing <squirrox@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2013 2:23 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers




Hi guys,

After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
which I don't mind paying if it will last.

I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142

Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...

Regards, Steve

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 22:23:52 +0100, you wrote:

>Hi guys,
>
>After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
>proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
>in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
>accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
>the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
>anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
>The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
>which I don't mind paying if it will last.

I have the proxxon drill, both versions, mains and 12 volt. While the
12 volt one is a trifle underpowered, it works well enough on a
moderately long session of board drilling and both of the have
acceptable runout for carbide drills (I use down to about #70 or so).

I've seen reviews on the Proxxon stand (www.amazon.com), and a number
of them are not favorable. It's about 70 USD here. The reviews seem
to indicate poor quality until the owner goes through and fixes up the
platform.

8000 RPM is about standard, the bench drill is rather expensive,
although the proxxon would be fine for runout.

If you could find a unimat lathe (not the unimat one, which is mostly
plastic), for all I know it might be available for somewhat less, and
would have a decent runout as well. With the right belt
configuration, it'll do 15000 RPM (I think, I'd have to check on that
one).

Not 30K RPM, nor 20K RPM, but it has other nice uses.

I'm considering reworking part of an air ram for a drill press, just
the guides and so on, might just work.

Harvey

>
>I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142
>
>Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...
>
>Regards, Steve
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve, the price is plus £200 delivery. They don't mention collection.

John G3UGY

> Hi guys,
>
>After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
>proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
> accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
> the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
> anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
> The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
> which I don't mind paying if it will last.
>
> I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142
>
> Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...
>
> Regards, Steve

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 09/06/2013 08:29, John wrote:

> Steve, the price is plus £200 delivery. They don't mention collection.
>
> John G3UGY
>
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
>> proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
>> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
>> accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
>> the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
>> anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
>> The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
>> which I don't mind paying if it will last.
>>
>> I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142
>>
>> Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...
>>
>> Regards, Steve
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi Steve

I can only see one stepper motor (on the Y axis) and only 1 is mentioned
in the contents so how are the X and Z movements achieved.It looks to be
incomplete yet claims all the functions of a cnc router.I bought a
similar but complete machine last year machine for under £400 delivered
(possible from the same source) and have been very satisfied with it .

Hope this helps
Keith

s

On 09/06/2013 08:29, John wrote:
> Steve, the price is plus £200 delivery. They don't mention collection.
>
> John G3UGY
>
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
>> proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
>> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
>> accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
>> the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
>> anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
>> The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
>> which I don't mind paying if it will last.
>>
>> I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142
>>
>> Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...
>>
>> Regards, Steve
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Hi again Steve

I have now had a closer look at this and can see the X and Z steppers
appear to be shown but are not mentioned in the contents list so
please ignore my comments re incompleteness , however, they appear to
be small framed steppers so might be OK for drilling and pcb work but
not much more demanding engraving/routing.

Regards, Keith

On 09/06/2013 08:29, John wrote:

> Steve, the price is plus £200 delivery. They don't mention collection.
>
> John G3UGY
>
>

Any one any idea why they are priced like this?

>> Hi guys,
>>
>> After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
>> proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
>> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
>> accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
>> the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
>> anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
>> The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
>> which I don't mind paying if it will last.
>>
>> I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142
>>
>> Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...
>>
>> Regards, Steve
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Farthing <squirrox@...> wrote:

> After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
> proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
> accuracy is not good enough.
> Regards, Steve

Steve,
I totally agree a good stand is necessary with these tiny drill bits.
I have a dremel brand stand too. and surprisingly mine is darn stable. Perhaps
some are mfd better than others or you got a defective one out of the box?
Fwiw I have a cnc machine so I have a clue about accuracy. and when I first looked at a dremel brand stand I thought what a POS.. but surprisingly it works quite well.
OR I got the only one that works. (Though,probably not the case.. my luck is'nt that good)
2cents.
Sam

I should have mentioned here are some pics of a couple boards I made.
Drilled with a the Dremel and stand. No broken bits. Ever! (*****disclamer "Yet")


http://thesn1per.blogspot.com/2013/06/diy-circuit-boards-tachometer.html

I have one of those Dremel stands. Right out of the box
it too was "sloppy" and if left that way it would have broken
bits. All I did to fix that was to tighten all the adjustment
screws for a "slide fit". Now, no wobble, etc.

Charlie

On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 18:44:12 -0000 "a8050266" <mail4sam@...>
writes:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Farthing <squirrox@...>
wrote:

> After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i

got a

> proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly

designed

> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes.

So

> accuracy is not good enough.
> Regards, Steve

Steve,

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I also have one of the dremel stands. Have used it for over 10 years and it is very stable. I have never broken a bit (even as small as .014) while drilling. Sometimes I do something dumb like bump into the bit with my hand or something else while it is stopped. In that case it is usually good bye drill bit.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, n0tt1@... wrote:
>
> I have one of those Dremel stands. Right out of the box
> it too was "sloppy" and if left that way it would have broken
> bits. All I did to fix that was to tighten all the adjustment
> screws for a "slide fit". Now, no wobble, etc.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Sun, 09 Jun 2013 18:44:12 -0000 "a8050266" <mail4sam@...>
> writes:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Farthing <squirrox@>
> wrote:
> > After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i
> got a
> > proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly
> designed
> > in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes.
> So
> > accuracy is not good enough.
> > Regards, Steve
>
> Steve,
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I also have used a Dremel stand to drill PCBs with mixed results. IMHO, the problem with the Dremel may not be the stand, it may be excessive runout and worn bearings in the tool itself. The stand I have is a model 225 http://www.flickr.com/photos/wb8nbs/9005741727/
which works very well with little play. It is somewhat rare. I also have a model 210 which shares the clamp-the-tool-and-move-the-table design but is less precise. This design has fewer places for slop to accumulate than the type of press that holds the table and moves the tool.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "a8050266" <mail4sam@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Farthing <squirrox@> wrote:
> > After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
> > proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
> > in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
> > accuracy is not good enough.
> > Regards, Steve
>
>
>
> Steve,
> I totally agree a good stand is necessary with these tiny drill bits.
> I have a dremel brand stand too. and surprisingly mine is darn stable. Perhaps
> some are mfd better than others or you got a defective one out of the box?
> Fwiw I have a cnc machine so I have a clue about accuracy. and when I first looked at a dremel brand stand I thought what a POS.. but surprisingly it works quite well.
> OR I got the only one that works. (Though,probably not the case.. my luck is'nt that good)
> 2cents.
> Sam
>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Jim <wb8nbs@...> wrote:

> I also have used a Dremel stand to drill PCBs with mixed results. IMHO, the problem with the Dremel may not be the stand, it may be excessive runout and worn bearings in the tool itself.

Dremel tools have shocking runout from the day they're bought.

We bought a Proxxon tool for the CNC mill we built in our hackerspace.
It's a beautiful tool, everything the Dremel isn't.

Mitch.

On 09/06/2013 09:29, kpyahoo wrote:

> s
> On 09/06/2013 08:29, John wrote:
>> Steve, the price is plus £200 delivery. They don't mention collection.
>>
>> John G3UGY
>>
>>

How do you compare these. I was looking at one of these:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-3020-CNC-UPDATE-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE-c1-/290928956948

any idea what the difference is?

>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> After years of messing around with my dremel I think its about time i got a
>>> proper drill press for PCB work. The Dremel drill stand is badly designed
>>> in my opinion. It does not hold the drill firmly enough and it flexes. So
>>> accuracy is not good enough. I was looking at getting a jewellers press but
>>> the only one i can get is by Proxon. The maximum speed is 8000rpm. Does
>>> anyone have any experience with these? Or know of an alternative in the UK?
>>> The Proxxon, with the chuck and bench vice is going to cost me ower £200
>>> which I don't mind paying if it will last.
>>>
>>> I was looking for a second hand one on Ebay when i found this
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-S-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-m8-/170683348142
>>>
>>> Anyone tried one for PCB work. It seems incredibly inexpensive...
>>>
>>> Regards, Steve
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Hi again Steve
>
> I have now had a closer look at this and can see the X and Z steppers
> appear to be shown but are not mentioned in the contents list so
> please ignore my comments re incompleteness , however, they appear to
> be small framed steppers so might be OK for drilling and pcb work but
> not much more demanding engraving/routing.
>
> Regards, Keith
>
>
>

Well, it uses a parallel port for connectivity. That may pose a problem in a few years when PC makers have utterly abandoned that interface -- the machine should outlast a computer.

It takes G code, so as long as you can find software on W1nd0ze (or maybe Linux??) to support that AND a parallel interface on a replacement PC, you should be good to go.

Since I've recently had some really bad experiences with Communist Chinese-supplied USB cables, I cannot blindly recommend using a parallel-to USB interface box/cable.

I know that if I were in the market for something like this (and I kind of AM looking), I'd start with the software on my OS of choice first, and then go with a USB interface. Finally the product differentiator would be the actual hardware.

Basically if it won't support some flavor of *nix (I prefer a certain bundled BSD Unix) and USB, I won't use it.

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 5:29 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers
>
>
>How do you compare these. I was looking at one of these:-
>
>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-3020-CNC-UPDATE-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE-c1-/290928956948
>
>any idea what the difference is?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

USB will be supported long after parallel is in the dust.
As for China I have had a run of bad luck lately. Ordered a rework station
1st one never got hot. Second one let out a stream of smoke and then blew hot air. Proof this was the very first time this sucker had been turned on. The customer is quality control and the shipping and delay on each round, well that isn't a problem to the mfr in China. The distributor in the US has those headaches.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300748915324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


the other item was a digital volt ohmmeter. no reading on 20 volt scale, low readings on 200 volt scale.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290912387701?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


I decided to get something else rather than wait for replacement so am returning it. They don't pay for returns of DOA - all on your nickel, and get this, they want tracking which is another 92 cents.
I can see making a customer pay for shipping if they changed their mind but no way should they charge for busto. I would have hated it anyway. Felt like a big fortune cookie in my hand. Scared I might crush it.
Felt way too thin.



________________________________
From: Jim <n6otq@...>
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers




Well, it uses a parallel port for connectivity. That may pose a problem in a few years when PC makers have utterly abandoned that interface -- the machine should outlast a computer.

It takes G code, so as long as you can find software on W1nd0ze (or maybe Linux??) to support that AND a parallel interface on a replacement PC, you should be good to go.

Since I've recently had some really bad experiences with Communist Chinese-supplied USB cables, I cannot blindly recommend using a parallel-to USB interface box/cable.

I know that if I were in the market for something like this (and I kind of AM looking), I'd start with the software on my OS of choice first, and then go with a USB interface. Finally the product differentiator would be the actual hardware.

Basically if it won't support some flavor of *nix (I prefer a certain bundled BSD Unix) and USB, I won't use it.

73
Jim N6OTQ

>________________________________
> From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 5:29 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers
>
>
>How do you compare these. I was looking at one of these:-
>
>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-3020-CNC-UPDATE-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE-c1-/290928956948
>
>any idea what the difference is?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suspect the problem is that the bearings are mounted in plastic. I've never checked runout on a Dremel (or anything else) but I have had a few Dremels that vibrated and felt like they had some runout. I took them apart, found the bearings a little loose in the plastic, and retightened by wrapping a few turns of tape around the ball bearings.

Not very elegant, and not very permanent, but they were Dremels at work where they were not going to put out any money on repairs or replacements.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Davis <mjd@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Jim <wb8nbs@...> wrote:
> > I also have used a Dremel stand to drill PCBs with mixed results. IMHO, the problem with the Dremel may not be the stand, it may be excessive runout and worn bearings in the tool itself.
>
> Dremel tools have shocking runout from the day they're bought.
>
> We bought a Proxxon tool for the CNC mill we built in our hackerspace.
> It's a beautiful tool, everything the Dremel isn't.
>
> Mitch.
>

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:51 AM, AlienRelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> I took them apart, found the bearings a little loose in the plastic, and retightened by wrapping a few turns of tape around the ball bearings.

Ahh that's good to know.

The electronic speed control on the Proxxons is also nice. They tend
not to bog like the Dremels.

Mitch.

Most "USB to parallel" adapters do not do what you think they do. They only
work for printers, not general parallel devices. All the CNC machines use
parallel so they can have a much dumber controller, and just diddle the
bits of the parallel port for driving the steppers, and may rely on
hardware interrupts and the very low latency of the parallel port for
timing. I'm not sure why someone hasn't come up with a generic
microcontroller based controller that does the same thing with the generic
I/O pins, and takes the gcode, or something else at a 'higher level' over
USB, as the timing over USB is not good enough to drive the motors
directly. I guess it will happen sooner or later, with the parallel port
becoming fairly scarce. Perhaps even an FTDI usb chip that has a bunch of
directly controllable I/O pins might work (like are used in some common USB
-> GPIB interfaces)

You can get PCI and PCI-e parallel port cards, and probably will be able to
for quite some time. I know some _very_ expensive devices that have direct
parallel interfaces, and rely on a 'true' hardware parallel port to work
properly.

Andrew

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Well, it uses a parallel port for connectivity. That may pose a problem
> in a few years when PC makers have utterly abandoned that interface -- the
> machine should outlast a computer.
>
> It takes G code, so as long as you can find software on W1nd0ze (or maybe
> Linux??) to support that AND a parallel interface on a replacement PC, you
> should be good to go.
>
> Since I've recently had some really bad experiences with Communist
> Chinese-supplied USB cables, I cannot blindly recommend using a parallel-to
> USB interface box/cable.
>
> I know that if I were in the market for something like this (and I kind of
> AM looking), I'd start with the software on my OS of choice first, and then
> go with a USB interface. Finally the product differentiator would be the
> actual hardware.
>
> Basically if it won't support some flavor of *nix (I prefer a certain
> bundled BSD Unix) and USB, I won't use it.
>
> 73
> Jim N6OTQ
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@...>
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 5:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers
>
> >
> >
> >How do you compare these. I was looking at one of these:-
> >
> >
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-3020-CNC-UPDATE-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE-c1-/290928956948
> >
> >any idea what the difference is?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The notion that USB will be supported long after parallel is a folly!
Serial or parallel are far more likely to work in the future than USB.

I did not expect this either, but recently we retired windows XP at
work and I had several USB connected pieces of equipment that had no
driver support for the new operating systems. With serial port this
was not an issue since there is no device driver required.

So yes, USB as a _connector_ and bus system will be around for a long
time, but driver support for USB devices will likely not survive the
next windows version. Your USB devices will become totally useless if
just one manufacturer stops providing driver updates, while a vast
number of different serial/parallel adapter manufacturers have to stop
supplying product for those interfaces to go away.

ST

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...> wrote:
>
>
> USB will be supported long after parallel is in the dust.

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Andrew Hakman <andrew.hakman@...> wrote:

> Most "USB to parallel" adapters do not do what you think they do. They only
> work for printers, not general parallel devices. All the CNC machines use
> parallel so they can have a much dumber controller, and just diddle the
> bits of the parallel port for driving the steppers, and may rely on
> hardware interrupts and the very low latency of the parallel port for
> timing.

Yeah, then you need wretched software like MACH3 or EMC2 running
full-time on a PC to do the real-time stuff.

> I'm not sure why someone hasn't come up with a generic
> microcontroller based controller that does the same thing with the generic
> I/O pins, and takes the gcode, or something else at a 'higher level' over
> USB, as the timing over USB is not good enough to drive the motors
> directly.

You mean like this?

https://github.com/grbl/grbl

GRBL takes your G-code via serial USB, and does all the motion
control, including motion lookahead to make everything smooth.

GRBL is an absolute miracle, I don't know why anyone would bother with
the parallel port. Highly recommended.

Mitch.

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Stefan Trethan

>
> So yes, USB as a _connector_ and bus system will be around for a long
> time, but driver support for USB devices will likely not survive the
> next windows version.

Some of don't use Windows for that very reason. I have devices here
which can no longer be used in Windows, but still run fine under
Linux. Vendor lockin is as much a problem for operating systems as it
is for CAD packages.

> Your USB devices will become totally useless if
> just one manufacturer stops providing driver updates

<smiles>

Mitch.

Yes, well, go and buy a piece of professional electronic test
equipment and ask for non-Windows software. Just doesn't happen.
"Linux support under development." Yea sure when pigs fly....

RS232 and Parallel have a great track record so far, compared to USB.
But you should expect to keep legacy machines around to run specific
equipment in any event, to be totally on the safe side.

ST

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Mitch Davis <mjd@...> wrote:

> Some of don't use Windows for that very reason. I have devices here
> which can no longer be used in Windows, but still run fine under
> Linux. Vendor lockin is as much a problem for operating systems as it
> is for CAD packages.

Oh, that's good to know! I wondered why there's still tons of cnc stuff
that has a parallel interface. I guess it's probably because people made a
crapload of parallel interface boards, and they're going to sell them
regardless of whether it's actually the best method or not.

Good to know someone actually did it the smart way! Will definitely keep
this in mind if I ever get around to building or buying a CNC machine.

Andrew

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Mitch Davis <mjd@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> You mean like this?
>
> https://github.com/grbl/grbl
>
> GRBL takes your G-code via serial USB, and does all the motion
> control, including motion lookahead to make everything smooth.
>
> GRBL is an absolute miracle, I don't know why anyone would bother with
> the parallel port. Highly recommended.
>
> Mitch.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 11 Jun 2013 05:21, "Andrew Hakman" <andrew.hakman@...> wrote:

>
> Most "USB to parallel" adapters do not do what you think they do. They

only

> work for printers, not general parallel devices. All the CNC machines use
> parallel so they can have a much dumber controller, and just diddle the
> bits of the parallel port for driving the steppers, and may rely on
> hardware interrupts and the very low latency of the parallel port for
> timing. I'm not sure why someone hasn't come up with a generic
> microcontroller based controller that does the same thing with the generic
> I/O pins, and takes the gcode, or something else at a 'higher level' over
> USB, as the timing over USB is not good enough to drive the motors
> directly. I guess it will happen sooner or later, with the parallel port
> becoming fairly scarce. Perhaps even an FTDI usb chip that has a bunch of
> directly controllable I/O pins might work (like are used in some common

USB

> -> GPIB interfaces)
>
> You can get PCI and PCI-e parallel port cards, and probably will be able

to

> for quite some time. I know some _very_ expensive devices that have direct
> parallel interfaces, and rely on a 'true' hardware parallel port to work
> properly.
>
> Andrew
>

I have a a modern PC with a PCI Express printer port. Even that fails with
some software as you can set the address to 3F8. I ended up running XP in a
VMWare virtual machine. The virtualisation layer does allow the port to be
remapped to 3F8.

,

>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jim <n6otq@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Well, it uses a parallel port for connectivity. That may pose a problem
> > in a few years when PC makers have utterly abandoned that interface --

the

> > machine should outlast a computer.
> >
> > It takes G code, so as long as you can find software on W1nd0ze (or

maybe

> > Linux??) to support that AND a parallel interface on a replacement PC,

you

> > should be good to go.
> >
> > Since I've recently had some really bad experiences with Communist
> > Chinese-supplied USB cables, I cannot blindly recommend using a

parallel-to

> > USB interface box/cable.
> >
> > I know that if I were in the market for something like this (and I kind

of

> > AM looking), I'd start with the software on my OS of choice first, and

then

> > go with a USB interface. Finally the product differentiator would be

the

> > actual hardware.
> >
> > Basically if it won't support some flavor of *nix (I prefer a certain
> > bundled BSD Unix) and USB, I won't use it.
> >
> > 73
> > Jim N6OTQ
> >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@...>
> > >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > >Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 5:29 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >How do you compare these. I was looking at one of these:-
> > >
> > >
> >

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-3020-CNC-UPDATE-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE-c1-/290928956948

> > >
> > >any idea what the difference is?
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and

Photos:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

How about one of these?

http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/3-axis-machine-34752

not a bad price! and I'm sure can be used with routers and the right software.
David

A Quote from the specs, "Resolution 0.1mm on all axes". That's 0.004". So a 15 mill wide trace could become 23 mills wide or 7 mills wide. I don't think my boards cold take that level of slop.

Paul A.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dgh2259@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> How about one of these?
>
> http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/3-axis-machine-34752
>
> not a bad price! and I'm sure can be used with routers and the right software.
> David
>

I suspect .1 mm is a step. Or at least half a step. I also suspect its repeatability is much better than its absolute x,y position. I bet the .1 is absolute positioning.

Specsmanship. Especially foreign specsmanship. Half the time I am afraid I missed a "gotcha".





________________________________
From: epa_iii <palciatore@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 7:40 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers




A Quote from the specs, "Resolution 0.1mm on all axes". That's 0.004". So a 15 mill wide trace could become 23 mills wide or 7 mills wide. I don't think my boards cold take that level of slop.

Paul A.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dgh2259@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> How about one of these?
>
> http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/3-axis-machine-34752
>
> not a bad price! and I'm sure can be used with routers and the right software.
> David
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That one looks a wooden toy, not a serious router. Very expensive for the
quality it seems to have. Just my opinion.


2013/6/11 David <dgh2259@...>

> **
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> How about one of these?
>
> http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/3-axis-machine-34752
>
> not a bad price! and I'm sure can be used with routers and the right
> software.
> David
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> That one looks a wooden toy, not a serious router. Very expensive for the
> quality it seems to have. Just my opinion.

That one has been around for a while, it's more an educational thing than
anything else. Made using MDF (chipboard?) and drawer slides.

Tony

> A Quote from the specs, "Resolution 0.1mm on all axes". That's 0.004". So

a

> 15 mill wide trace could become 23 mills wide or 7 mills wide. I don't

think

> my boards cold take that level of slop.
>
> Paul A.

Don't get too excited by numbers. You could add a micro-stepping driver and
increase the resolution 10 fold...

Rigidity is about the only thing that matters - everything bends. The less
it bends, the more accurate everything winds up being. The drawer slides
that uses and the dremel-type tool aren't exactly high-precision items
either, so that doesn't help.

I've always thought PCB milling was a bit pointless on a hobbyist level, you
need too much expensive gear (as opposed to other methods) to make boards,
plus it's noisy and a bit slow. Having it drill the holes might make up for
it. Each to their own, of course.

Tony

I have a reasonably good pcb router, but I sort of agree with Tony
about its being a PITA. You have to change bits, the bits break, and
most importantly if the board is not completely flat, it cuts too
deeply in places and not deep enough in others. Of course, really
good machines map the surface to compensate for this, or you can use
a vacuum table to hold it flat, or carpet tape. The machine creates a
lot of dust, so I use a vacuum system to collect it, which creates a
lot of noise. That said, however, being able to easily do double
sided boards is nice and drilling holes is very fast and accurate.

Mark

At 08:12 AM 6/12/2013, you wrote:

> > A Quote from the specs, "Resolution 0.1mm on all axes". That's 0.004". So
>a
> > 15 mill wide trace could become 23 mills wide or 7 mills wide. I don't
>think
> > my boards cold take that level of slop.
> >
> > Paul A.
>
>
>Don't get too excited by numbers. You could add a micro-stepping driver and
>increase the resolution 10 fold...
>
>Rigidity is about the only thing that matters - everything bends. The less
>it bends, the more accurate everything winds up being. The drawer slides
>that uses and the dremel-type tool aren't exactly high-precision items
>either, so that doesn't help.
>
>I've always thought PCB milling was a bit pointless on a hobbyist level, you
>need too much expensive gear (as opposed to other methods) to make boards,
>plus it's noisy and a bit slow. Having it drill the holes might make up for
>it. Each to their own, of course.
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

aren't those drawer gliders the table is mounted on?






________________________________
From: David <dgh2259@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:02 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers




Hi All,

How about one of these?

http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/3-axis-machine-34752

not a bad price! and I'm sure can be used with routers and the right software.
David




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 12/06/2013 19:05, Kirk McLoren wrote:

>
> aren't those drawer gliders the table is mounted on?
>
>
>

THey might be rack rails, but consumer items certainly...
(Actually I think when I looked at this a while ago it said drawer rails.

>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David <dgh2259@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:02 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers
>
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> How about one of these?
>
> http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/3-axis-machine-34752
>
> not a bad price! and I'm sure can be used with routers and the right software.
> David
>
>

--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum

A resolution of .004" is probably pretty good for a
particle-board-and-drawer-slide machine. If you want the fun of making
your own cartesian robot or just want to non-critical work like engrave
signs. For PC Board work, I'm pretty impressed with the Zen Cart 7 by 7
machine:

http://zentoolworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=74

Check out their user videos and Youtube for some good examples of
routing PC board with a .1mm cutter with sufficient accuracy for
double-sided boards. Not perfect, but it looks pretty good for the
price, and the PVC frame and actual linear bearing slides will be much
more precise and dimensionally stable than anything that can be done
with hardware store components. I also like that it's an engineered
system rather than a hodgepodge of whatever was on sale on eBay at the
time. Anyone using one who can provide some first person feedback?

73, Bob W9RAN

On 13/06/2013 17:08, Robert Nickels wrote:

> A resolution of .004" is probably pretty good for a
> particle-board-and-drawer-slide machine. If you want the fun of making
> your own cartesian robot or just want to non-critical work like engrave
> signs. For PC Board work, I'm pretty impressed with the Zen Cart 7 by 7
> machine:
>
> http://zentoolworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=74
>
> Check out their user videos and Youtube for some good examples of
> routing PC board with a .1mm cutter with sufficient accuracy for
> double-sided boards. Not perfect, but it looks pretty good for the
> price, and the PVC frame and actual linear bearing slides will be much
> more precise and dimensionally stable than anything that can be done
> with hardware store components. I also like that it's an engineered
> system rather than a hodgepodge of whatever was on sale on eBay at the
> time. Anyone using one who can provide some first person feedback?
>
> 73, Bob W9RAN
>
>

Its a lovely machine, but shipping from the US to Europe is $170 - $200
then I will have to pay import duty and VAT.....
I think for a complete kit I am looking at nearly $1000 dollars...

Dave
G4UGM

I do not have any particular experience of knowledge of this device except what I have seen here, but ...

MDF should not be a problem unless you want to reduce the tolerance/accuracy level below 0.001 or so. Unless you have a widely varying humidity level in the area it is in. Wood does not automatically equate to "toy".

As for the drawer slides, they come in a great variety of styles and some are a lot more accurate than others. They also can have different levels of slop in different directions. If they are properly selected and installed, they can be quite good, perhaps down to 0.002" or even better.

Where the real problem really is is the drive screws and the steppers that drive them. If they used hardware store, threaded rod, then you automatically are reduced to +/-0.004" or worse accuracy. The accuracy of the steppers is on top of that so it adds to the error. Example: 20 TPI screw and 200 step stepper. That gives 20 X 200 divisions per inch or 4000. Each division if already at 0.00025" I strongly doubt that adding micro-stepping to that system would improve the accuracy to any measurable or noticeable degree.

I could easily build a much better system with MDF and drawer slides by employing better screws and more attention to design and construction. However, I would use ground shafting for slides and close fitting bushings for the ways and better quality screws, perhaps Acme rod or ball screws from E-bay. I could easily get it down to 0.001" without any micro-stepping, which I do not trust except as a means of attaining smoother motion, not better resolution or accuracy. Micro stepping is not accurate because the torque is reduced at every level of increased steps.

Yes, it is expensive for the level of accuracy it claims.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:
>
> > That one looks a wooden toy, not a serious router. Very expensive for the
> > quality it seems to have. Just my opinion.
>
>
> That one has been around for a while, it's more an educational thing than
> anything else. Made using MDF (chipboard?) and drawer slides.
>
> Tony
>

I quite agree. To that I would add flexing. From the single available photo
it looks as if the lead screw is attached by a thin piece of metal that
might have been cut from a coffe can. I have seen backlash more than 0.01"
caused by nothing more than flexing of metal quite a bit more sturdy looking
than that. The fact that the photo hides the motors and/or the method of
mounting them is a big red flag as well. I have seen some remarkably precise
machines made of MDF, but that looks like a piece of junk. It is not well
designed. If you want something like that you could build one just like it
from looking at the photo, end up with at least equal quality, and save a
lot of money.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "epa_iii" <palciatore@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:40 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Drilling machines, cheap Ebay routers


>I do not have any particular experience of knowledge of this device except
>what I have seen here, but ...
>
> MDF should not be a problem unless you want to reduce the
> tolerance/accuracy level below 0.001 or so. Unless you have a widely
> varying humidity level in the area it is in. Wood does not automatically
> equate to "toy".
>
> As for the drawer slides, they come in a great variety of styles and some
> are a lot more accurate than others. They also can have different levels
> of slop in different directions. If they are properly selected and
> installed, they can be quite good, perhaps down to 0.002" or even better.
>
> Where the real problem really is is the drive screws and the steppers that
> drive them. If they used hardware store, threaded rod, then you
> automatically are reduced to +/-0.004" or worse accuracy. The accuracy of
> the steppers is on top of that so it adds to the error. Example: 20 TPI
> screw and 200 step stepper. That gives 20 X 200 divisions per inch or
> 4000. Each division if already at 0.00025" I strongly doubt that adding
> micro-stepping to that system would improve the accuracy to any measurable
> or noticeable degree.
>
> I could easily build a much better system with MDF and drawer slides by
> employing better screws and more attention to design and construction.
> However, I would use ground shafting for slides and close fitting bushings
> for the ways and better quality screws, perhaps Acme rod or ball screws
> from E-bay. I could easily get it down to 0.001" without any
> micro-stepping, which I do not trust except as a means of attaining
> smoother motion, not better resolution or accuracy. Micro stepping is not
> accurate because the torque is reduced at every level of increased steps.
>
> Yes, it is expensive for the level of accuracy it claims.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> > That one looks a wooden toy, not a serious router. Very expensive for
>> > the
>> > quality it seems to have. Just my opinion.
>>
>>
>> That one has been around for a while, it's more an educational thing than
>> anything else. Made using MDF (chipboard?) and drawer slides.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>
>

Guys,

Thanks for the magnificent response to my simple questions. Following the
thread has taught me a lot....

I was minded to get one of the Zen machines however the cost of shipping
them from the USA plus the inevitable import price has put them beyond my
price range. And I am not convinced by the Rapid Electronics option made
from MDF. So I'll probably keep an eye out for a set of plans. I am lucky
enough to have access to a friend's machine shop so I'll see if I can make
my own from scratch....

Thanks again guys,

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In article
<CAAx2MdLp13A1gvNxpRffLFLDu5Cxee-DjGktaYcp0J0nR-Lg4A@...>,
Stephen Farthing <squirrox@...> wrote:

> And I am not convinced by the Rapid Electronics option made
> from MDF.

It looks to me to be the same as the one sold by Farnell

http://uk.farnell.com/milford-instruments/5d300/pcp-drill-bench-3-axis-machine/dp/4140369

and made by Milford instruments. The "data sheet" is in fact the
instructions to build.

Milford instruments' own site is

http://www.milinst.com/

If one were seriously considering purchase perhaps one could visit and see
one "in the flesh"

--
Stuart Winsor

Midlands RISC OS and Raspberry pi show, 13th July 2013

http://www.mug.riscos.org/show13/MUGshow.html

> and made by Milford instruments. The "data sheet" is in fact the

instructions

> to build.
>
> Milford instruments' own site is
>
> http://www.milinst.com/

That machine has been around a few years, and often pops up as an example of
a simple one to build.

The assembly manual is here:
http://www.milinst.co.uk/shop/RA/pdf/5_300mnl.pdf, you could use that as a
guide. A couple of interesting points is it's made from laminated chipboard
(not MDF), not that it matters much (both are fairly stable), and the drive
is done by cable, not screws.

The cable is wound around the stepper shaft and tensioned, it's a fairly
common method seen in things like photocopiers etc. It explains why you
can't see the motors, and the resolution.

Since the cable is wound around the shaft, one rotation moves the axis the
circumference of the shaft, so a 1/4" shaft gives 6.35mm x 3.14, so 20mm.
Dividing that by 200 steps gives your 0.1mm resolution. Good enough for
drilling PCBs which seems to its main goal.

It's well worth building something like that from junk as a learning
experience. CNC is more than just the machine; you need to get your head
around the software as well, in that case a clunky machine is better than
nothing.

Tony

> and made by Milford instruments. The "data sheet" is in fact the

instructions

> to build.
>
> Milford instruments' own site is
>
> http://www.milinst.com/

I just noticed some of the dates on the manual are from late 2004, so yes,
this machine has been around for a while.

Tony