Homebrew_PCBs

I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.

I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.

Could you share your experience ?

I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is important too.

On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:

> I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
>
> I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
>
> Could you share your experience ?
>
> I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
> important too.

Why not an inkjet printer?

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM

whatever you do don't go brother, even with generic toner it's a pita.
Brother printers have problems with alot of things so stay away.
High quality for toner transfer lots of people use hp laser printers even
the cheaper ones tend to give good reults on transparencies as well as with
toner transfer
terramir

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Hikmet <gumush@...> wrote:

> I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
>
> I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
>
> Could you share your experience ?
>
> I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
> important too.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Respectfully,
R. Daniel Borkan
727 S. Coronado St. 201
Los Angeles, CA 90057
H: (213) 739-1863
C: (213) 271-6721


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I already have Epson L800 inkjet for home use. But i want to buy for our lab. And i think laser is more suitable for these ?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller wrote:
>
> On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:
> > I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
> >
> > I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
> >
> > Could you share your experience ?
> >
> > I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
> > important too.
>
> Why not an inkjet printer?
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>

inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies and the printout tend to
be too opaque.
there are methods around this like printing two copies and overlaying them
but there not perfect methods
my $.02
terramir

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

> On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:
> > I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
> >
> > I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
> >
> > Could you share your experience ?
> >
> > I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
> > important too.
>
> Why not an inkjet printer?
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Respectfully,
R. Daniel Borkan
727 S. Coronado St. 201
Los Angeles, CA 90057
H: (213) 739-1863
C: (213) 271-6721


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I use a Brother 550 LAZER printer, with Office Depot toner for toner transfers with HP presentation glossy paper. It works very well. Even for fine line transfers, I use it for a solder mask. I reverse (mirror) the image and invert the image to back in stead of white. I run it through my laminator machine 10 times soak it in water for 15 minutes.

Boots-2b1

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:46 AM, "Hikmet" <gumush@...> wrote:

> I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
>
> I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
>
> Could you share your experience ?
>
> I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is important too.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Did you mean "not opaque enough"?

Black is not the best color to use when using an inkjet for this. The lighter shades in a dye inkjet printer have additives to them that block UV, to slow fading.

Several have experimented with this and have found shades of green that mix just the right blend to block UV and work well.

It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution inkjet than to get high resolution Laser.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "r.d. terramir" wrote:
>
> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies and the printout tend to
> be too opaque.
> there are methods around this like printing two copies and overlaying them
> but there not perfect methods
> my $.02
> terramir
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Leon Heller wrote:
>
> > On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:
> > > I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
> > >
> > > I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
> > >
> > > Could you share your experience ?
> > >
> > > I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
> > > important too.
> >
> > Why not an inkjet printer?
> >
> > Leon
> > --
> > Leon Heller
> > G1HSM
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Respectfully,
> R. Daniel Borkan
> 727 S. Coronado St. 201
> Los Angeles, CA 90057
> H: (213) 739-1863
> C: (213) 271-6721
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> Steve Greenfield wrote:
> <Snip>
> It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution
> inkjet than to get high resolution Laser.

>> r.d. terramir wrote:
>> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies
>> and the printout tend to be too opaque.

>>> <Snip about inkjets not being good for trannies>

I agree with Steve on this.

a $50 inkjet can do a fine job on proper trannies
(if it has UV blocking ink)

a $2000 laser printer can just compete on trace/space
but is not as good on large fills

It takes a medium car priced laser printer to beat
an inkjet for making phototools. Then only some of
them. We have had expensive printers that have even
failed to do as good as job as a $500 printer.

"UV blocking ink" is that a special ink or default inks will block uv's.

I have epson l800 and it has dye based ink.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cunningfellow" wrote:
>
> > Steve Greenfield wrote:
> >
> > It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution
> > inkjet than to get high resolution Laser.
>
> >> r.d. terramir wrote:
> >> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies
> >> and the printout tend to be too opaque.
>
> >>>
>
> I agree with Steve on this.
>
> a $50 inkjet can do a fine job on proper trannies
> (if it has UV blocking ink)
>
> a $2000 laser printer can just compete on trace/space
> but is not as good on large fills
>
> It takes a medium car priced laser printer to beat
> an inkjet for making phototools. Then only some of
> them. We have had expensive printers that have even
> failed to do as good as job as a $500 printer.
>

I have LasarJet 4 600dpi. What can I do to improve in opaque except two copies. Is there a better way? Best Kevin


________________________________
From: AlienRelics <alienrelics@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 4:03 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Looking for a hi quality laser printer for photoresist pcbs..



Did you mean "not opaque enough"?

Black is not the best color to use when using an inkjet for this. The lighter shades in a dye inkjet printer have additives to them that block UV, to slow fading.

Several have experimented with this and have found shades of green that mix just the right blend to block UV and work well.

It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution inkjet than to get high resolution Laser.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "r.d. terramir" wrote:
>
> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies and the printout tend to
> be too opaque.
> there are methods around this like printing two copies and overlaying them
> but there not perfect methods
> my $.02
> terramir
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Leon Heller wrote:
>
> > On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:
> > > I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
> > >
> > > I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
> > >
> > > Could you share your experience ?
> > >
> > > I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
> > > important too.
> >
> > Why not an inkjet printer?
> >
> > Leon
> > --
> > Leon Heller
> > G1HSM
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Respectfully,
> R. Daniel Borkan
> 727 S. Coronado St. 201
> Los Angeles, CA 90057
> H: (213) 739-1863
> C: (213) 271-6721
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 08/01/13 07:39, r.d. terramir wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Leon Heller<leon355@...> wrote:
>
>> On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:
>>> I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
>>>
>>> I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
>>>
>>> Could you share your experience ?
>>>
>>> I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner quality is
>>> important too.
>>
>> Why not an inkjet printer?

> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies and the printout tend to
> be too opaque. there are methods around this like printing two copies and
> overlaying them but there not perfect methods my $.02 terramir

Use an inkjet compatible with gelatin coated transparencies. The transparencies
soak in the ink, and can be got from silk-screening suppliers. The ink needs to
be dye based iirc (not pigment based).

On 08/01/13 09:27, Hikmet wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cunningfellow" wrote:
>>
>>> Steve Greenfield wrote:
>>>
>>> It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution
>>> inkjet than to get high resolution Laser.
>>
>>>> r.d. terramir wrote:
>>>> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies
>>>> and the printout tend to be too opaque.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>> I agree with Steve on this.
>>
>> a $50 inkjet can do a fine job on proper trannies
>> (if it has UV blocking ink)
>>
>> a $2000 laser printer can just compete on trace/space
>> but is not as good on large fills
>>
>> It takes a medium car priced laser printer to beat
>> an inkjet for making phototools. Then only some of
>> them. We have had expensive printers that have even
>> failed to do as good as job as a $500 printer.
>>

> "UV blocking ink" is that a special ink or default inks will block uv's.
>
> I have epson l800 and it has dye based ink.

I'm using the normal black dye ink in an old Epson Stylus 400 printer.

The "real" laser-raster UV printouts use a yellowish ink.

Photo inksets have UV blockers for the light cyan and light magenta, because they tend to fade quickly without them.

http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/22732

Yellow also reportedly works well. You will need to test your particular inkset.

http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/22737

Makers of screens for screenprinting use standard inks on vellum all the time.


Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Hikmet" wrote:
>
> "UV blocking ink" is that a special ink or default inks will block uv's.
>
> I have epson l800 and it has dye based ink.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cunningfellow" wrote:
> >
> > > Steve Greenfield wrote:
> > >
> > > It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution
> > > inkjet than to get high resolution Laser.
> >
> > >> r.d. terramir wrote:
> > >> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies
> > >> and the printout tend to be too opaque.
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > I agree with Steve on this.
> >
> > a $50 inkjet can do a fine job on proper trannies
> > (if it has UV blocking ink)
> >
> > a $2000 laser printer can just compete on trace/space
> > but is not as good on large fills
> >
> > It takes a medium car priced laser printer to beat
> > an inkjet for making phototools. Then only some of
> > them. We have had expensive printers that have even
> > failed to do as good as job as a $500 printer.
> >
>

> Kevin Byrne wrote:
>
> I have LasarJet 4 600dpi. What can I do to
> improve in opaque except two copies. Is there
> a better way? Best KevinÂ

I have used "toner density enhancement spray"
(ebay "Gcc toner density spray") $40 is pretty
expensive for a spray can full of solvent.
It does kind of work though.

Someone else on this list recommended dusting
cerium oxide on the sheet and then melting it
(the toner) in the oven.

I bought some cerium oxide, but have not yet
tried this myself.

I tried to find some of that darkener stuff in NZ but couldn't seem to.

Tried the trick with the whiteboard marker instead, which seemed good. At least, the transfer looked visually darker afterwards and it worked well for making the PCB.

Though, I never tried a printout without the whiteboard marker so perhaps it didn't actually do anything.

I found the laser works fine for big SMDs and through hole parts. Really fine tracks and small parts I think will be a bit of a stretch.

I did try my Canon Pixma iP2000 which gave a very nice printout but which was horrible for actually blocking the UV. I don't believe it uses dye inks which is probably the problem.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cunningfellow" wrote:
>
> > Kevin Byrne wrote:
> >
> > I have LasarJet 4 600dpi. What can I do to
> > improve in opaque except two copies. Is there
> > a better way? Best KevinÂ
>
> I have used "toner density enhancement spray"
> (ebay "Gcc toner density spray") $40 is pretty
> expensive for a spray can full of solvent.
> It does kind of work though.
>
> Someone else on this list recommended dusting
> cerium oxide on the sheet and then melting it
> (the toner) in the oven.
>
> I bought some cerium oxide, but have not yet
> tried this myself.
>

I've used TWO sheets of drafting paper (translucent,
milky-white color) with the trace patterns aligned and facing down
toward the PCB. Drafting paper allows UV to pass right
on through to make "blue prints". I exposed the resist
with fluorescent UV "black lights" from Walmart. Two
sheets were used because the toner from
my HP Laserjet printer wasn't opaque enough to use just
one sheet.

Charlie


On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:35:48 -0800 (PST) Kevin Byrne <kbyrne10@...>
writes:

I have LasarJet 4 600dpi. What can I do to improve in opaque except two
copies. Is there a better way? Best Kevin

________________________________
From: AlienRelics alienrelics@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 4:03 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Looking for a hi quality laser printer for
photoresist pcbs..



Did you mean "not opaque enough"?

Black is not the best color to use when using an inkjet for this. The
lighter shades in a dye inkjet printer have additives to them that block
UV, to slow fading.

Several have experimented with this and have found shades of green that
mix just the right blend to block UV and work well.

It is easier and cheaper to get high resolution inkjet than to get high
resolution Laser.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "r.d. terramir" wrote:
>
> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies and the printout
tend to
> be too opaque.
> there are methods around this like printing two copies and overlaying
them
> but there not perfect methods
> my $.02
> terramir
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Leon Heller wrote:
>
> > On 07/01/2013 19:46, Hikmet wrote:
> > > I'm looking for a laser printer for photoresist pcb's.
> > >
> > > I want to expose minimal trace and clearance.
> > >
> > > Could you share your experience ?
> > >
> > > I think it would be 1200X1200dpi , mono's prefered. And toner
quality is
> > > important too.
> >
> > Why not an inkjet printer?
> >
> > Leon
> > --
> > Leon Heller
> > G1HSM
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Respectfully,
> R. Daniel Borkan
> 727 S. Coronado St. 201
> Los Angeles, CA 90057
> H: (213) 739-1863
> C: (213) 271-6721
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am very interested in this subject and I have on and off over the years done some testing but nothing recently.



One absolute requirement: Single pass printing and single sheet (no stacking). There is no way that high resolution can be achieved in a regular printer if the paper is inserted twice.



As you all know there are two goals: UV opacity & resolution.



I started testing a few years ago with three printers, four different types of paper and each ink color. A LOT of test combinations!! I measured opacity vs. wavelength with a spectrometer and I used my resolution chart. Unfortunately I ran out of time before having time to write up the testing and data.



Here is the test chart and procedure info:

http://www.vinland.com/USAF-1951.html



Bertho



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 07/01/2013 20:35, Hikmet wrote:

> I already have Epson L800 inkjet for home use. But i want to buy for our
> lab. And i think laser is more suitable for these ?

I get excellent results with a low-cost inkjet printer. I doubt if a
much more expensive laser printer will be any better.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM

On 07/01/2013 20:39, r.d. terramir wrote:

> inkjets don't do a very good job on transparencies and the printout tend to
> be too opaque.
> there are methods around this like printing two copies and overlaying them
> but there not perfect methods
> my $.02

Not necessary with the correct transparency material.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM