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plating holes with an exploding wire

plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by Jeff

A friend descried to me a method for plating through holes. The plating is accomplished by inserting a wire into the hole and applying a high voltage to the wire, exploding it and connecting the layers together. A pdf is available on google. It was too big for yahoo. Despite the questionable looking address, it is real.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9UJMWQidYN0ZE1yNWEzQmluSWc

Curt's description
It involves feeding a thin copper wire through the hole until it touches a massive ground plate which allows a capacitor charged to 300 - 400 volts to discharge and literally melt the wire rapidly enough to cause it to 'explode' and bond to the internal copper layers. I find that 10 to 15 bursts leave enough copper for a sturdy through hole. I use an X Y table to position the board under a chuck that grips the wire and is connected to the high voltage source. A small stepper motor feeds the wire through the chuck from a spool.


Jeff

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by Andrew Leech

Love it, that sounds fantastic! I'm guessing it'd be pretty darn loud
though, the neighbors may be less impressed.

Andrew

On 6/12/12 2:54 PM, Jeff wrote:
>
> A friend descried to me a method for plating through holes. The
> plating is accomplished by inserting a wire into the hole and applying
> a high voltage to the wire, exploding it and connecting the layers
> together. A pdf is available on google. It was too big for yahoo.
> Despite the questionable looking address, it is real.
>
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9UJMWQidYN0ZE1yNWEzQmluSWc
>
> Curt's description
> It involves feeding a thin copper wire through the hole until it
> touches a massive ground plate which allows a capacitor charged to 300
> - 400 volts to discharge and literally melt the wire rapidly enough to
> cause it to 'explode' and bond to the internal copper layers. I find
> that 10 to 15 bursts leave enough copper for a sturdy through hole. I
> use an X Y table to position the board under a chuck that grips the
> wire and is connected to the high voltage source. A small stepper
> motor feeds the wire through the chuck from a spool.
>
> Jeff
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by Stefan Trethan

Nice idea.

A similar method is used to gold plate samples for old electron microscopes.

I've noticed a conductive metal deposit in plastic cases near the
point of (arcing) failure of the electronics inside.

Usually this is called vacuum deposition, but apparently the vacuum is
not strictly necessary if the plasma from an arc is used.

ST

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Jeff <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:
> A friend descried to me a method for plating through holes. The plating is accomplished by inserting a wire into the hole and applying a high voltage to the wire, exploding it and connecting the layers together. A pdf is available on google. It was too big for yahoo. Despite the questionable looking address, it is real.
>
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9UJMWQidYN0ZE1yNWEzQmluSWc
>
> Curt's description
> It involves feeding a thin copper wire through the hole until it touches a massive ground plate which allows a capacitor charged to 300 - 400 volts to discharge and literally melt the wire rapidly enough to cause it to 'explode' and bond to the internal copper layers. I find that 10 to 15 bursts leave enough copper for a sturdy through hole. I use an X Y table to position the board under a chuck that grips the wire and is connected to the high voltage source. A small stepper motor feeds the wire through the chuck from a spool.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by chuck richards

This idea reminds me a whole lot of the method Edison
used in 1902 to produce molds to mass-produce cylinder
records. First they would take the master recording on
wax and then coat it with graphite and then put it into
a bell jar and pulled down a fairly decent vacuum.

The bell jar was equipped with a means to rotate the cylinder
and also with a way to connect it to one side of a high voltage
DC source. Nearby the rotating cylinder was a gold electrode
connected to the other side of the DC. After a long enough
time, the gold would plate onto the charged graphite surface
of the wax cylinder. Soon there would be enough gold
there to then continue the plating with copper to build up
a sturdy metal cylinder that had the exact groove impressions
as the master. The master was then melted out and then the
copper and gold mold would be pressed into a steel liner.

One of these molds could then be used to cast thousands of
hard wax molded records for sale to the public.

This is all very interesting indeed, because now that it's
starting to be understood that the vacuum is not really
a requirement if there is a hot spark with plasma, this could
open up some new possibilities for many related things.

Chuck Richards
http://www.richardslaboratories.com


>
>
>---- Original Message ----
>From: stefan_trethan@...
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] plating holes with an exploding wire
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 05:58:22 +0100
>
>>Nice idea.
>>
>>A similar method is used to gold plate samples for old electron
>microscopes.
>>
>>I've noticed a conductive metal deposit in plastic cases near the
>>point of (arcing) failure of the electronics inside.
>>
>>Usually this is called vacuum deposition, but apparently the vacuum
>is
>>not strictly necessary if the plasma from an arc is used.
>>
>>ST
>>
>>On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Jeff <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:
>>> A friend descried to me a method for plating through holes. The
>plating is accomplished by inserting a wire into the hole and
>applying a high voltage to the wire, exploding it and connecting the
>layers together. A pdf is available on google. It was too big for
>yahoo. Despite the questionable looking address, it is real.
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9UJMWQidYN0ZE1yNWEzQmluSWc
>>>
>>> Curt's description
>>> It involves feeding a thin copper wire through the hole until it
>touches a massive ground plate which allows a capacitor charged to
>300 - 400 volts to discharge and literally melt the wire rapidly
>enough to cause it to 'explode' and bond to the internal copper
>layers. I find that 10 to 15 bursts leave enough copper for a sturdy
>through hole. I use an X Y table to position the board under a
>chuck that grips the wire and is connected to the high voltage
>source. A small stepper motor feeds the wire through the chuck from
>a spool.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files,
>and Photos:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>



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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by Slavko Kocjancic

On 12/06/2012 04:54 AM, Jeff wrote:
> A friend descried to me a method for plating through holes. The plating is accomplished by inserting a wire into the hole and applying a high voltage to the wire, exploding it and connecting the layers together. A pdf is available on google. It was too big for yahoo. Despite the questionable looking address, it is real.
>
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9UJMWQidYN0ZE1yNWEzQmluSWc
>
> Curt's description
> It involves feeding a thin copper wire through the hole until it touches a massive ground plate which allows a capacitor charged to 300 - 400 volts to discharge and literally melt the wire rapidly enough to cause it to 'explode' and bond to the internal copper layers. I find that 10 to 15 bursts leave enough copper for a sturdy through hole. I use an X Y table to position the board under a chuck that grips the wire and is connected to the high voltage source. A small stepper motor feeds the wire through the chuck from a spool.
>
>
> Jeff
>
The link gave me engine CDI device. Well the DC/DC is usable for
exploding wire I don't know if that's correct file at all?
Is there some video or similar stuff available?
It's seems to nice to be true. But I can't imagine how to apply such a
current to explode cooper wire and have collet still usable. If there is
cooper plate on one side so how to design other side where wire feed is
needed (probably something like MIG welder?!?)

Slavko.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by Kaj Wiik

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:

>
>
> The link gave me engine CDI device. Well the DC/DC is usable for
> exploding wire I don't know if that's correct file at all?
> Is there some video or similar stuff available?
>

Not specifically about plating but interesting document in general:
http://www.belljar.net/Exploding_Wires.pdf

Here is a nice video (bit too long wire for plating :-)):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiSlWgUD7vk


> It's seems to nice to be true. But I can't imagine how to apply such a
> current to explode cooper wire and have collet still usable. If there is
> cooper plate on one side so how to design other side where wire feed is
> needed (probably something like MIG welder?!?)
>
Good questions, but in principle this could work very well... In plating,
the wire that is to be exploded is short and thin, perhaps quite small (an
quickly charged) energy would be sufficient.

Cheers,
Kaj


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-06 by AlienRelics

Jeri Ellsworth has a video or two illustrating plating a transparent coating of conductive tin on a sheet of glass, without a vacuum.

I like it, a chemical-less method of through-hole plating. I could also see using this to lay down a first layer, then electroplating onto that.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Nice idea.
>
> A similar method is used to gold plate samples for old electron microscopes.
>
> I've noticed a conductive metal deposit in plastic cases near the
> point of (arcing) failure of the electronics inside.
>
> Usually this is called vacuum deposition, but apparently the vacuum is
> not strictly necessary if the plasma from an arc is used.
>
> ST
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Jeff <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:
> > A friend descried to me a method for plating through holes. The plating is accomplished by inserting a wire into the hole and applying a high voltage to the wire, exploding it and connecting the layers together. A pdf is available on google. It was too big for yahoo. Despite the questionable looking address, it is real.
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9UJMWQidYN0ZE1yNWEzQmluSWc
> >
> > Curt's description
> > It involves feeding a thin copper wire through the hole until it touches a massive ground plate which allows a capacitor charged to 300 - 400 volts to discharge and literally melt the wire rapidly enough to cause it to 'explode' and bond to the internal copper layers. I find that 10 to 15 bursts leave enough copper for a sturdy through hole. I use an X Y table to position the board under a chuck that grips the wire and is connected to the high voltage source. A small stepper motor feeds the wire through the chuck from a spool.
> >
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >

Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-08 by alan00463

How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
Why wouldn't that work fine ?

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-08 by Jeff Heiss

That typically works fine. But with boards with more than two layers, vias
under chips, or BGAs with vias between ball pads, it does not work.



Jeff



_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of alan00463
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:09 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire





How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
Why wouldn't that work fine ?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-08 by Slavko Kocjancic

On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> Why wouldn't that work fine ?
>
>
And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
for "vias".
Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
layers.
So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?

Slavko.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-08 by Jeff Heiss

Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
stuff.



Jeff



_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire





On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> Why wouldn't that work fine ?
>
>
And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
for "vias".
Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
layers.
So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?

Slavko.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-09 by smilingcat90254

Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.

I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested. Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed. All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and you should be able to plate it!!

Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very little needed bought quart size)

Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and battery acid.
Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.

If you want more hand holding, just ask!

Sincerely,

Smilingcat

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:
>
> Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> stuff.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> >
> >
> And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> for "vias".
> Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> layers.
> So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
>
> Slavko.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-09 by Jeff Heiss

I did experiments of plating copper clad using the same recipe but the
copper coating was easily rubbed off. How is your coating durability?



Jeff

_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire





Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.

I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
you should be able to plate it!!

Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
little needed bought quart size)

Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
battery acid.
Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.

If you want more hand holding, just ask!

Sincerely,

Smilingcat

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
wrote:
>
> Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> stuff.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> >
> >
> And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> for "vias".
> Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> layers.
> So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
>
> Slavko.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2012-12-10 by smilingcat90254

Sometimes, it peels off. Some times, I can use a knife point to try to peel and it stays put. I think we are missing something on the surface treatment of the copper cladding.

To save on copper, electrical need and to keep copper cladding surface from being marred (without the brightening organic agent, plating can become very uneven), I use my .drl file, print a negative image, transfer the image then plate. This way the copper cladding does not get plated. Toner is non conductive thus copper under the toner does not get plated. And only the holes get plated.

smilingcat


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:
>
> I did experiments of plating copper clad using the same recipe but the
> copper coating was easily rubbed off. How is your coating durability?
>
>
>
> Jeff

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-01 by Jeff Heiss

The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.



A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
shorter?



Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?



Jeff



_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire





Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.

I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
you should be able to plate it!!

Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
little needed bought quart size)

Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
battery acid.
Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.

If you want more hand holding, just ask!

Sincerely,

Smilingcat

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
wrote:
>
> Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> stuff.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> >
> >
> And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> for "vias".
> Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> layers.
> So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
>
> Slavko.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-01 by Donald H Locker

The peeling copper may well be the result of chemical deposition before electrical deposition begins. Try turning on the electricity before immersing the object to be plated.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "smilingcat90254" <smilingcat@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 1:45:25 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
> Sometimes, it peels off. Some times, I can use a knife point to try to
> peel and it stays put. I think we are missing something on the surface
> treatment of the copper cladding.
>
> To save on copper, electrical need and to keep copper cladding surface
> from being marred (without the brightening organic agent, plating can
> become very uneven), I use my .drl file, print a negative image,
> transfer the image then plate. This way the copper cladding does not
> get plated. Toner is non conductive thus copper under the toner does
> not get plated. And only the holes get plated.
>
> smilingcat
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I did experiments of plating copper clad using the same recipe but the
> > copper coating was easily rubbed off. How is your coating
> > durability?
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Kevin Impson

Hi,

Just get 20 200uF 100V capacitors and wire them in series. You then have a 200uF 2000V capacitor.

Check Ebay... lots of options

Kevin I.



________________________________
From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire


 
The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.

A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
shorter?

Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?

Jeff

_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.

I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
you should be able to plate it!!

Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
little needed bought quart size)

Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
battery acid.
Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.

If you want more hand holding, just ask!

Sincerely,

Smilingcat

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
wrote:
>
> Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> stuff.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> >
> >
> And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> for "vias".
> Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> layers.
> So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
>
> Slavko.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Norm

On 1/1/2013 4:50 PM, Kevin Impson wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just get 20 200uF 100V capacitors and wire them in series. You then
> have a 200uF 2000V capacitor.
>
> Check Ebay... lots of options
>
> Kevin I.
>
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. 20 200 uf caps in series results in a
10 uf 2000v cap.
Resistors add in series, caps add in parallel.

Norm
W6NIM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Harvey White

On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 16:50:21 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Just get 20 200uF 100V capacitors and wire them in series. You then have a 200uF 2000V capacitor.

Actually, no, you end up with a 10uf at 2000 volt capacitor, and you
have to hope that the leakages balance, because if they don't, then
you have unequal voltages across the capacitors, and one of them is
likely to get more than the 100 volts you would want as a maximum (and
really, you'd rather have about 65 to 80 volts, anyway).

capacitors in parallel = resistors in series; capacitors in series =
resistors in parallel.

Harvey

>
>Check Ebay... lots of options
>
>Kevin I.
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:20 PM
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>

>The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
>says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
>a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
>used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.
>
>A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
>(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
>shorter?
>
>Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
>capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?
>
>Jeff
>
>_____
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
>help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.
>
>I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
>Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
>Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
>Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
>All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
>you should be able to plate it!!
>
>Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
>Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
>Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
>little needed bought quart size)
>
>Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
>Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
>battery acid.
>Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.
>
>If you want more hand holding, just ask!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Smilingcat
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
>wrote:
>>
>> Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
>> 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
>> stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>> On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
>> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
>> > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
>> > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
>> > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
>> >
>> >
>> And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
>> for "vias".
>> Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
>> layers.
>> So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
>> solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
>> hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
>> both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
>> sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
>>
>> Slavko.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Bob Macklin

Someone is having a problem here.

Two 200uf 100V capacitors in series give you a 100uf 200V capacitor.

The capacitance divides by 2, the voltage multiplies by 2.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message -----
From: Harvey White
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire



On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 16:50:21 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Just get 20 200uF 100V capacitors and wire them in series. You then have a 200uF 2000V capacitor.

Actually, no, you end up with a 10uf at 2000 volt capacitor, and you
have to hope that the leakages balance, because if they don't, then
you have unequal voltages across the capacitors, and one of them is
likely to get more than the 100 volts you would want as a maximum (and
really, you'd rather have about 65 to 80 volts, anyway).

capacitors in parallel = resistors in series; capacitors in series =
resistors in parallel.

Harvey

>
>Check Ebay... lots of options
>
>Kevin I.
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:20 PM
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
>says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
>a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
>used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.
>
>A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
>(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
>shorter?
>
>Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
>capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?
>
>Jeff
>
>_____
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
>help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.
>
>I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
>Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
>Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
>Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
>All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
>you should be able to plate it!!
>
>Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
>Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
>Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
>little needed bought quart size)
>
>Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
>Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
>battery acid.
>Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.
>
>If you want more hand holding, just ask!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Smilingcat
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
>wrote:
>>
>> Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
>> 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
>> stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>> On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
>> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>
>> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
>> > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
>> > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
>> > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
>> >
>> >
>> And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
>> for "vias".
>> Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
>> layers.
>> So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
>> solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
>> hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
>> both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
>> sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
>>
>> Slavko.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Mark Lerman

Shouldn't be a problem - you could use electrolytic caps in series
and parallel combinations, eg 4 x 800 uf 500 V caps in series = 200
uf at 2000 V.


At 05:20 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:
>The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
>says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
>a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
>used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.
>
>
>
>A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
>(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
>shorter?
>
>
>
>Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
>capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>
>
>Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
>help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.
>
>I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
>Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
>Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
>Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
>All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
>you should be able to plate it!!
>
>Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
>Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
>Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
>little needed bought quart size)
>
>Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
>Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
>battery acid.
>Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.
>
>If you want more hand holding, just ask!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Smilingcat
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
>wrote:
> >
> > Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> > 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> > stuff.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> > >
> > >
> > And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> > for "vias".
> > Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> > layers.
> > So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> > solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> > hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> > both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> > sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
> >
> > Slavko.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Jeff Heiss

Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Lerman <mlerman@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:04 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire


Shouldn't be a problem - you could use electrolytic caps in series
and parallel combinations, eg 4 x 800 uf 500 V caps in series = 200
uf at 2000 V.

At 05:20 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:
>The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
>says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
>a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
>used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.
>
>
>
>A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
>(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
>shorter?
>
>
>
>Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
>capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>
>
>
>Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas. Fans do not
>help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.
>
>I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
>Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
>Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
>Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
>All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other things and
>you should be able to plate it!!
>
>Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
>Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
>Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
>little needed bought quart size)
>
>Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
>Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
>battery acid.
>Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.
>
>If you want more hand holding, just ask!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Smilingcat
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
>wrote:
> >
> > Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> > 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> > stuff.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> > >
> > >
> > And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> > for "vias".
> > Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> > layers.
> > So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> > solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> > hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> > both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> > sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
> >
> > Slavko.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[The entire original message is not included]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Mark Lerman

Digikey has them, though they are $16,27 USD each. 820uf at 500 VDC


At 11:03 AM 1/2/2013, you wrote:
>Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Lerman <mlerman@...>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:04 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
>
>Shouldn't be a problem - you could use electrolytic caps in series
> and parallel combinations, eg 4 x 800 uf 500 V caps in series = 200
> uf at 2000 V.
>
> At 05:20 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:
> >The pdf titled Exploding Wires - Principles, Apparatus, and Experiments,
> >says a rule of thumb for exploding a wire is 200uF at 2000v. Meaning charge
> >a 200uF capacitor to 2000v and short it with a wire. The length of wire
> >used in the article was 6 inches to 12 inches long.
> >
> >
> >
> >A wire exploded inside a through-hole or via would only be 1/16" long
> >(0.062"). Can the 200uF requirement be reduced since the length of wire is
> >shorter?
> >
> >
> >
> >Microwave capacitors are 1uF so 200 would be required. Where can large
> >capacitors be found so 200 craigslist microwaves are not required?
> >
> >
> >
> >Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> >On Behalf Of smilingcat90254
> >Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:59 AM
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Just a minor point, in a vacuum, there is very little to no gas.
> Fans do not
> >help. If you are going to that trouble, just plate it.
> >
> >I've uploaded the schematic into Files/"constant current source" of
> >Electronics - 101. If you want it here I can uploade it into
> >Homebrew_PCBs/Files directory. Yes the circuit has been built and tested.
> >Over temperature detection and shutdown for safety does work as designed.
> >All you need is a reasonably powerful power supply, and few other
> things and
> >you should be able to plate it!!
> >
> >Copper sulfate: obtained as ZEP at Home Depot.
> >Hcl: obtained as Muriatic acid (very little needed)
> >Sulfuric acid: obtained as battery acid at NAPA auto parts supply. (very
> >little needed bought quart size)
> >
> >Heavy rubber gloves to handle corrosive acid
> >Face shield to protect your eyes and face while handling muriatic acid and
> >battery acid.
> >Rubber apron to protect your body while handling the acid.
> >
> >If you want more hand holding, just ask!
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Smilingcat
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> ><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...>
> >wrote:
> > >
> > > Can a vacuum deposition work? Would the vapor get into small vias, say
> > > 0.008"? Maybe a fan inside would help?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ forward to 4:50 for the good
> > > stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> ><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> >[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> ><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > > On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:37 PM
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8.12.2012 17:09, alan00463 wrote:
> > > > How about just regular solid-conductor wire (Cu, Sn, etc.) ?
> > > > If it's the right diameter, it will fit into the holes.
> > > > Why wouldn't that work fine ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > And how to pass component into that hole? Solid wire can be used only
> > > for "vias".
> > > Plating is to leave hole opened but to have electric contact with both
> > > layers.
> > > So if the hole is plated and you put resistor lead to the hole and
> > > solder in one side, the capilar "wick" efect will pull solder into the
> > > hole thru to other side. If hole is not plated then you must solder in
> > > both sides. And there is the problem. Resistors can be soldered in both
> > > sides but what for electrolytic capacitors?!?
> > >
> > > Slavko.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>[The entire original message is not included]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Norm

On 1/2/2013 8:03 AM, Jeff Heiss wrote:
>
> Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?
>
At the risk of offending some on this list, be aware:

800 uf at 500 v can be a lethal combination! 200 uf at 2000 v is
absolutely LETHAL - and you only get one mistake!

How do you intend switching this power? How will you generate the
charging voltage (the charging voltage is also well into the lethal
range!)? Safe enclosures, relay isolation, interlocks and grounding
rods are required. It's not like transistor supply voltages. If you
are not accustomed to this kind of voltage, please don't attempt it.

Sorry to rant, but I speak from 65 years of industrial experience, much
of that with 1Kv+ operations .

Norm
W6NIM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Mark Lerman

Norm, you are 100% correct - this is dangerous, and if you don't know
exactly what you are doing, you shouldn't do it. A couple of years
ago I was working with about 2500 volts from a big power supply and
my attention wandered. I forgot to turn it off before reaching in to
move something. When the shock hit me I literally thought I was going
to die. After I picked myself off the ground, I put the supply away
and got a much less powerful hv source that was limited to 20 ua or so.

It is also important to know that even with the power off, the
capacitors will hold a charge for many hours if there are no "bleeder
resistors" in the circuit.


At 11:37 AM 1/2/2013, you wrote:
>On 1/2/2013 8:03 AM, Jeff Heiss wrote:
> >
> > Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?
> >
>At the risk of offending some on this list, be aware:
>
>800 uf at 500 v can be a lethal combination! 200 uf at 2000 v is
>absolutely LETHAL - and you only get one mistake!
>
>How do you intend switching this power? How will you generate the
>charging voltage (the charging voltage is also well into the lethal
>range!)? Safe enclosures, relay isolation, interlocks and grounding
>rods are required. It's not like transistor supply voltages. If you
>are not accustomed to this kind of voltage, please don't attempt it.
>
>Sorry to rant, but I speak from 65 years of industrial experience, much
>of that with 1Kv+ operations .
>
>Norm
>W6NIM
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Charles R Patton

A few other comments:

First: 200uF @ 2KVusing Watt-secs or Joules = 1/2 (CV^2) gives 200
Watt-secs.That seems like a lot of heat in a 10 mill dia 62 mill long
hole.More information on the source of this quote of a "typical" amount
of capacitance/voltage might be in order.Exploding wires in general is
an exotic topic and unless the quote was for plating holes it could be
for another purpose requiring this extraordinary amount of energy.For
instance exploding wires under water between a backing block and a
microscope cover glass could make an extremely fast strobe flash (think
pictures of bullets exploding apples).The technique depended on the
microscope glass literally pulverizing and scattering the light,
effectively acting like a shutter.One place I found the old column was:
http://jesseenterprises.net/amsci/1957/11/1957-11-body.html
In this experiment the authors were using about 30uF @ 25KV, or about
9000 Watt-secs.

Second:The capacitor selection.As already mentioned electrolytics need
voltage balancing due to unequal leakage.This can be a source of
considerable power drain while you're trying to charge them up.But in
addition, electrolytics generally have too much inductance due to the
construction technique of winding the electrodes like a tube of toilet
paper.This inductance interferes with the fast discharge rates
required.Capacitors used for pulse discharge applications are
constructed differently to minimize the inductive component.Still
another problem is that there are electromechanical problems due to the
stress of the high voltage on the electrode structures in the capacitor
so capacitors such as caps used for power factor correction on the
utility lines (the caps one might likely see on Ebay or find in a good
junk yard, won't have great lifetimes in an application like this and
may fail prematurely.So have a spare or two on hand.)

Third:There is an alternate technique one could contemplate.Years ago
AT&T (?) experimented with repairing PCB edge connectors by placing gold
foil on the finger to be repaired and setting off a small amount of
explosive on the surface, driving the foil into mechanical bond with
finger copper/laminate.Is gun bullet reloading mercury fulminate or some
similar available?You would need a fast detonation rate material such as
the primer.Load a pre-cut length of fine copper, brass or bronze tubing
with the primer (one could easily buy rivets of the proper size.)Slip
the rivet into the PCB hole, place board w/ rivet on a heavy steel plate
and use heavy hammer like a small sledge to tap the exposed top of the
rivet.The resulting explosion might expand the rivet in the hole bonding
it to the layers.The key to explosive forming like this is that the
metal acts much as if it has liquified so it fills the surface.This
might be easier than trying to thread small wires and explode them in
the PCB.No experience here, but it makes an interesting thought
experiment.If you do try this -- be really careful and use really,
really small amounts of primer and don't accumulate it in large amounts
in any one place.From painful experience as a child, a small amount of
gunpowder in a small firecracker put a large gash in my hand.As the
watch captain said on NYPD Blue, "Be careful out there."

The explosive technique was the original method (don't know if it still
done this way) that Texas Instruments (?) used to form the multi-layer
sheets that US dimes used to change from pure silver.The metal sheets
were joined with explosives on the surface, then rolled to final
thickness prior to punching.Sectioning showed a interface that looked
like liquids intermingling.

Enough rambling.Enjoy.
Charles R. Patton


On 1/2/2013 8:37 AM, Norm wrote:
>
> On 1/2/2013 8:03 AM, Jeff Heiss wrote:
> >
> > Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?
> >
> At the risk of offending some on this list, be aware:
>
> 800 uf at 500 v can be a lethal combination! 200 uf at 2000 v is
> absolutely LETHAL - and you only get one mistake!
>
> How do you intend switching this power? How will you generate the
> charging voltage (the charging voltage is also well into the lethal
> range!)? Safe enclosures, relay isolation, interlocks and grounding
> rods are required. It's not like transistor supply voltages. If you
> are not accustomed to this kind of voltage, please don't attempt it.
>
> Sorry to rant, but I speak from 65 years of industrial experience, much
> of that with 1Kv+ operations .
>
> Norm
> W6NIM
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by brane212

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Charles R Patton <charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
>
> A few other comments:
>
> First: 200uF @ 2KVusing Watt-secs or Joules = 1/2 (CV^2) gives 200
> Watt-secs.That seems like a lot of heat in a 10 mill dia 62 mill long
> hole.

Not neccessarily. Your example of wire exploding inside water needs much more energy due to water acting as coolant
Also exploding might be done in many different ways and stages.

Fo example, you could do:

1. Using high voltage source ( say 1kV, fev milliamps) to make initial spark when moving the wire trhough the PCB to background copper.

2. When that spark jumps, activate lower voltage but higher current wire to heat the spark plasma which would "eat" remainder fo the wire.

Doing things in this way would minimize requirements on the power source.

It is also probably not needed to explode the wire in PCB . One could have small tubeinto which he could gude the thin wire and explode or plasma erode it there and let the resultant mix of hot gasses flow through PCB hole so copper could get deposited.

Lightflash application you mention is interesting, but it has different requirements. Here it is not that important if flash lasts fo nanosecond or microsecond and there it was not important what happens to the copper afterwards.
.
WRT to playing with explosives I think it is stupid. You had opportunity to watch posts of the people who got wrong simple capacitance of serial configuration of equal capacitors. What do you think is going to happen when those talents start playing with explosives - or maybe you counted on natural selection to do its job and lift quality of posts ? ;o))

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Bob Macklin

If you want to melt a wire use a 28V 600A aircraft battery!

Ask me how I know!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message -----
From: brane212
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:09 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Charles R Patton <charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
>
> A few other comments:
>
> First: 200uF @ 2KVusing Watt-secs or Joules = 1/2 (CV^2) gives 200
> Watt-secs.That seems like a lot of heat in a 10 mill dia 62 mill long
> hole.

Not neccessarily. Your example of wire exploding inside water needs much more energy due to water acting as coolant
Also exploding might be done in many different ways and stages.

Fo example, you could do:

1. Using high voltage source ( say 1kV, fev milliamps) to make initial spark when moving the wire trhough the PCB to background copper.

2. When that spark jumps, activate lower voltage but higher current wire to heat the spark plasma which would "eat" remainder fo the wire.

Doing things in this way would minimize requirements on the power source.

It is also probably not needed to explode the wire in PCB . One could have small tubeinto which he could gude the thin wire and explode or plasma erode it there and let the resultant mix of hot gasses flow through PCB hole so copper could get deposited.

Lightflash application you mention is interesting, but it has different requirements. Here it is not that important if flash lasts fo nanosecond or microsecond and there it was not important what happens to the copper afterwards.
.
WRT to playing with explosives I think it is stupid. You had opportunity to watch posts of the people who got wrong simple capacitance of serial configuration of equal capacitors. What do you think is going to happen when those talents start playing with explosives - or maybe you counted on natural selection to do its job and lift quality of posts ? ;o))





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Charles R Patton

Re "wire in water being cooled". Actually the contrary is what happens.
The speed with which the pulse happens is much faster than the
conduction of heat so water or no water is not much different, but
because the arc is constrained by the surrounding water, the arc channel
pressurizes and is small with a corresponding increase in resistance
which aids the concentration of energy deposited in the arc rather than
losses in the wires and capacitor foils connecting to the exploding
wire. Arc voltage drops in the air are typically only a few ten's of
volts dominated by the voltage of nitrogen arcs, and if seeded by metal
ions, the voltage is even lower. So the energy deposited in an
exploding wire will be very small fraction of the available energy that
was stored in the capacitor bank.

Re: Low voltage, high current. The general trick of the exploding wire
is that the copper vaporizes and is "driven" by copper vapor pressure to
fly onto the wall of the hole and condense. Low voltage tends to just
melt the wire whereupon it balls up, but doesn't vaporize, a necessary
condition for "plating" the wall of the hole. I'm not saying you can't
vaporize wire with low voltage, high amperage, but rather it may not be
fast enough. The low voltage arc deposits heat by the contact of the
arc with the wire, causing it to melt and a small amount of metal to
vaporize at the arc contact point -- think about the common arc welding
process. The welding rod doesn't explode or even get very hot, but the
arc contacting the rod melts it very efficiently as well as the thing
being welded.

RE: Danger of explosives. Absolutely agree with your whole paragraph.
But the discussion has already crossed the boundary of general safety
with multi-KV capacitance storage. Lethal possibilities start when it
got above about 50 V. Many deaths have occurred at 110V. There are
also dangers at low voltage. Mention was made of an aircraft battery.
One of the stories I'm aware of is of a mechanic working on a 28V
aircraft battery while still wearing his wedding ring. He got the ring
across the buss. Ring almost instantly melted off of his finger -- I
don't remember if he lost the finger or not, but I'm absolutely sure it
wasn't healthy for the finger. (Just looked on the web for the story and
found this similar story involving a car battery:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/repair-questions/4213127
My take is that we're discussing interesting possibilities. Why not
open up the discussion to other possible techniques just to stimulate
the discussion?

RE: It is also probably not needed to explode the wire in PCB...arc
eroding a tube. This is essentially the description of a plasma
sprayer. Generally they're bigger, but why not a miniature version for
thru hole plating? Interesting thought. (This is what I mean by
stimulating discussions.)

While we're on safety and hi-voltage another thought about it. At
multi-KV numbers, keeping the spark/arc where it belongs is
non-trivial. It may just as easily transfer to the PCB on its way to
the circuit return. Putting the arc through the hole and carbonizing
the wall will guarantee a very poor connection to the copper layers
involved. Keeping the exploding wire supply feeding to the hole
requires a lot of **GOOD** insulation including lots of air gap.

Regards,
Charles R. Patton

On 1/2/2013 12:14 PM, Bob Macklin wrote:
>
> If you want to melt a wire use a 28V 600A aircraft battery!
>
> Ask me how I know!
>
> Bob Macklin
> K5MYJ
> Seattle, Wa.
> "Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: brane212
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:09 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Charles R Patton
> <charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
> >
> > A few other comments:
> >
> > First: 200uF @ 2KVusing Watt-secs or Joules = 1/2 (CV^2) gives 200
> > Watt-secs.That seems like a lot of heat in a 10 mill dia 62 mill long
> > hole.
>
> Not neccessarily. Your example of wire exploding inside water needs
> much more energy due to water acting as coolant
> Also exploding might be done in many different ways and stages.
>
> Fo example, you could do:
>
> 1. Using high voltage source ( say 1kV, fev milliamps) to make initial
> spark when moving the wire trhough the PCB to background copper.
>
> 2. When that spark jumps, activate lower voltage but higher current
> wire to heat the spark plasma which would "eat" remainder fo the wire.
>
> Doing things in this way would minimize requirements on the power source.
>
> It is also probably not needed to explode the wire in PCB . One could
> have small tubeinto which he could gude the thin wire and explode or
> plasma erode it there and let the resultant mix of hot gasses flow
> through PCB hole so copper could get deposited.
>
> Lightflash application you mention is interesting, but it has
> different requirements. Here it is not that important if flash lasts
> fo nanosecond or microsecond and there it was not important what
> happens to the copper afterwards.
> .
> WRT to playing with explosives I think it is stupid. You had
> opportunity to watch posts of the people who got wrong simple
> capacitance of serial configuration of equal capacitors. What do you
> think is going to happen when those talents start playing with
> explosives - or maybe you counted on natural selection to do its job
> and lift quality of posts ? ;o))
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by AlienRelics

Low ESR is part of the equation. I could suggest some of their very low ESR 50V caps, but they are similar in price. Just a bit safer regarding accidental contact.

I have some 2V lead acid cells here that will melt and burn a bit of solder wick applied across them in seconds. Don't ask how I know. So a few more volts at many more amps should have a much more violent effect on a thin copper wire.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
>
> Digikey has them, though they are $16,27 USD each. 820uf at 500 VDC
>
>
> At 11:03 AM 1/2/2013, you wrote:
> >Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?
> >
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Stefan Trethan

There are far more gruesome images where rings got caught in moving
machinery, don't wear them when you work on either.

I like the idea with the explosives filled rivets.

Here you can see some welding shots by DMC. They also have a 1500 ton
press to straighten the plates out afterwards....
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvJee_1w4tA>

ST

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Charles R Patton
<charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
> Found/2/2013 1,_._,___
> Found a scholarly paper with photos on wedding ring burns from 12 and 24
> batteries :
> http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_5/num_1/text/vol5n1p33.htm
> So it's not an uncommon accident, apparently.
> Regards,
> Charles R. Patton
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Bob Macklin

What is the purpose of this discussion? Is this for two layer boards or boards with more than two layers?

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Trethan
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire



There are far more gruesome images where rings got caught in moving
machinery, don't wear them when you work on either.

I like the idea with the explosives filled rivets.

Here you can see some welding shots by DMC. They also have a 1500 ton
press to straighten the plates out afterwards....
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvJee_1w4tA>

ST

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Charles R Patton
<charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
> Found/2/2013 1,_._,___
> Found a scholarly paper with photos on wedding ring burns from 12 and 24
> batteries :
> http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_5/num_1/text/vol5n1p33.htm
> So it's not an uncommon accident, apparently.
> Regards,
> Charles R. Patton
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Charles R. Patton

My take is that is for both.
A bit of history that weighs on my opinion. Some 40 or 50 years ago,
one method of doing two layer boards was the use of brass rivets that
were then solder re-flowed. Sounds great and reliable --right? As
happens, this turned out to be an incredibly bad technique. The thermal
expansion/contraction of the board fractured the rivet/solder bond to
the traces and the boards would go intermittent. I was in the two-way
business then and remember resoldering all the connections on boards
done with this technique. I read of other similar stories. Furthermore
the technique really didn't work on more than two layers. The cure was
the move to plated through holes. Both problems were solved.

I have used the method previously mentioned on this list of inserting a
wire through the via and soldering to both sides. I feel this deviates
considerably from the brass rivet problem. The wire is copper and
consequently can stretch with thermal expansion, not breaking the solder
bond, but it adds severe constraints on the layout as vias really need
to be extra to the through-hole parts with enough pad to solder the wire
to, and mandatory for SMT parts as it's generally considered bad
practice to put the via in an SMT pad, anyway.

So my take on this is the use of copper metallurgically bonded to the
foil traces by use of plating yields robust connections that can stand
the thermal cycling. The concept of exploding wire is appealing as the
idea of hot copper vapor moving at supersonic speeds will surely bond to
the foil edges it encounters (two or more) and thereby yield a reliable
"plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
do so? I know how to find 1 via that's poor in a sea of a 1000, but how
many people know the techniques? Bad vias will lead to incredible
frustrations. The method developed must be very reliable and repeatable.

Regards,
Charles R. Patton


On 1/2/2013 2:38 PM, Bob Macklin wrote:
>
> What is the purpose of this discussion? Is this for two layer boards
> or boards with more than two layers?
>
> Bob Macklin
> K5MYJ
> Seattle, Wa.
> "Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Missouri Guy

Warnings well noted!! BTW gents, a teenager in KS
was electrocuted recently. He was "working" on a
computer power supply, UNPLUGGED from power
and apparently came in contact with a charged up
capacitor. Killed him. :(

Charlie, N0TT

On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 08:37:32 -0800 Norm <w6nim@...> writes:

On 1/2/2013 8:03 AM, Jeff Heiss wrote:
>
> Can you suggest a place where 800uF, 500v caps can be found?
>
At the risk of offending some on this list, be aware:

800 uf at 500 v can be a lethal combination! 200 uf at 2000 v is
absolutely LETHAL - and you only get one mistake!

How do you intend switching this power? How will you generate the
charging voltage (the charging voltage is also well into the lethal
range!)? Safe enclosures, relay isolation, interlocks and grounding
rods are required. It's not like transistor supply voltages. If you
are not accustomed to this kind of voltage, please don't attempt it.

Sorry to rant, but I speak from 65 years of industrial experience, much
of that with 1Kv+ operations .

Norm
W6NIM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-02 by Charles R Patton

My take is that is for both.
A bit of history that weighs on my opinion. Some 40 or 50 years ago,
one method of doing two layer boards was the use of brass rivets that
were then solder re-flowed. Sounds great and reliable --right? As
happens, this turned out to be an incredibly bad technique. The thermal
expansion/contraction of the board fractured the rivet/solder bond to
the traces and the boards would go intermittent. I was in the two-way
business then and remember resoldering all the connections on boards
done with this technique. I read of other similar stories. Furthermore
the technique really didn't work on more than two layers. The cure was
the move to plated through holes. Both problems were solved.

I have used the method previously mentioned on this list of inserting a
wire through the via and soldering to both sides. I feel this deviates
considerably from the brass rivet problem. The wire is copper and
consequently can stretch with thermal expansion, not breaking the solder
bond, but it adds severe constraints on the layout as vias really need
to be extra to the through-hole parts and mandatory for SMT parts.
Although it's generally considered bad practice to put the via in an SMT
pad, anyway.

So my take on this is the use of copper metallurgically bonded to the
foil traces by use of plating yields robust connections that can stand
the thermal cycling. The concept of exploding wire is appealing as the
idea of hot copper vapor moving at supersonic speeds will surely bond to
the foil edges it encounters (two or more) and thereby yield a reliable
"plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
do so? I know how to find 1 via that's poor in a sea of a 1000, but how
many people know the techniques? Bad vias will lead to incredible
frustrations. The method developed must be very reliable and repeatable.

Regards,
Charles R. Patton


On 1/2/2013 2:38 PM, Bob Macklin wrote:
>
> What is the purpose of this discussion? Is this for two layer boards
> or boards with more than two layers?
>
> Bob Macklin
> K5MYJ
> Seattle, Wa.
> "Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by David Griffith

On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, brane2 wrote:

> Dne 02. 01. 2013 23:29, pis(e Charles R. Patton:
>
> <SNIP>
>>
>> "plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
>> to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
>> ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
>> do so?
>>
> Monitoring the current through exploding wire might give you a clue.
>
> Also, plasma eating might offer much more controll of the process over
> simple explosion.

If the exploding wire trick works to plate a hole, what happens to the
exploded metal that was above and below the board? Does it adhere
somewhere or does it result in crumbs that can be blown, brushed, or
washed away?

--
David Griffith
dgriffi@...

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by Bob Macklin

I was an EE for over 40 years. And I remember the brass eyelet problem well.

But I think trying to simulate plated through holes on home made PCB is going way too far.

I have been using wirewrap wire to fake the vias. I know you cannot put them under components.

On real PCBs the plated though holds are made on each layer before etching. Then the boards are sandwiched together.

This is just too much to try on homemade PCBs.

The sensitizing solution can be purchased and you can make real plated through holes if you really need them.

But that's too much trouble for me. I only use the TT process to make small quantities of boards for ham radio projects.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R. Patton
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire



My take is that is for both.
A bit of history that weighs on my opinion. Some 40 or 50 years ago,
one method of doing two layer boards was the use of brass rivets that
were then solder re-flowed. Sounds great and reliable --right? As
happens, this turned out to be an incredibly bad technique. The thermal
expansion/contraction of the board fractured the rivet/solder bond to
the traces and the boards would go intermittent. I was in the two-way
business then and remember resoldering all the connections on boards
done with this technique. I read of other similar stories. Furthermore
the technique really didn't work on more than two layers. The cure was
the move to plated through holes. Both problems were solved.

I have used the method previously mentioned on this list of inserting a
wire through the via and soldering to both sides. I feel this deviates
considerably from the brass rivet problem. The wire is copper and
consequently can stretch with thermal expansion, not breaking the solder
bond, but it adds severe constraints on the layout as vias really need
to be extra to the through-hole parts with enough pad to solder the wire
to, and mandatory for SMT parts as it's generally considered bad
practice to put the via in an SMT pad, anyway.

So my take on this is the use of copper metallurgically bonded to the
foil traces by use of plating yields robust connections that can stand
the thermal cycling. The concept of exploding wire is appealing as the
idea of hot copper vapor moving at supersonic speeds will surely bond to
the foil edges it encounters (two or more) and thereby yield a reliable
"plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
do so? I know how to find 1 via that's poor in a sea of a 1000, but how
many people know the techniques? Bad vias will lead to incredible
frustrations. The method developed must be very reliable and repeatable.

Regards,
Charles R. Patton

On 1/2/2013 2:38 PM, Bob Macklin wrote:
>
> What is the purpose of this discussion? Is this for two layer boards
> or boards with more than two layers?
>
> Bob Macklin
> K5MYJ
> Seattle, Wa.
> "Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by brane2

Dne 02. 01. 2013 23:29, pis(e Charles R. Patton:

<SNIP>
>
> "plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
> to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
> ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
> do so?
>
Monitoring the current through exploding wire might give you a clue.

Also, plasma eating might offer much more controll of the process over
simple explosion.





> Reply via web post
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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by Boman33

The problem with the eyelets was that they were tubular rivets. They solder
on the bottom and filled with solder. Unfortunately it often did not flow
over the top edge to reliably join the top trace.



That is why later rivets were used that had a slit in them and not tightly
crimped on the top . That way the solder wicked up and spread onto the top
trace.

Bertho



From: Bob Macklin Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 19:41
I was an EE for over 40 years. And I remember the brass eyelet problem well.

But I think trying to simulate plated through holes on home made PCB is
going way too far.

I have been using wirewrap wire to fake the vias. I know you cannot put them
under components.

On real PCBs the plated though holds are made on each layer before etching.
Then the boards are sandwiched together.

This is just too much to try on homemade PCBs.

The sensitizing solution can be purchased and you can make real plated
through holes if you really need them.

But that's too much trouble for me. I only use the TT process to make small
quantities of boards for ham radio projects.

Bob Macklin





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by Missouri Guy

Not to extend/stray the thread, but just FYI....and
my 2-cent worth below.

Long ago there was a discussion during a coffee break
down at work, where a "QC" guy said he read an article in
NASA Tech Notes. It was about the reliability
issue of soldered/rivoted thru holes (if I remember
correctly). The solution (experimentation?) was
to poke a tiny braid thru the hole, cut it off above
and below then spread out the braid on the pad and solder.
No solder would be "allowed" on the braid down in the
hole...don't know how that could be prevented.

The theory was to greatly increase the reliabilty of the
connections, esp during heating/cooling/vibration
conditions encountered during space flight.

"Plating" thru holes by exploding wires? Heh...heh...way
over the capabilities of the most dedicated homebrewers, IMHO,
even if results could ever be close to satisfactory. But
never stop dreaming up different ways to do things!

Charlie

On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:49:26 -0500 "Boman33" <boman33@...> writes:

The problem with the eyelets was that they were tubular rivets. They
solder
on the bottom and filled with solder. Unfortunately it often did not flow
over the top edge to reliably join the top trace.

That is why later rivets were used that had a slit in them and not
tightly
crimped on the top . That way the solder wicked up and spread onto the
top
trace.

Bertho

From: Bob Macklin Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 19:41
I was an EE for over 40 years. And I remember the brass eyelet problem
well.

But I think trying to simulate plated through holes on home made PCB is
going way too far.

I have been using wirewrap wire to fake the vias. I know you cannot put
them
under components.

On real PCBs the plated though holds are made on each layer before
etching.
Then the boards are sandwiched together.

This is just too much to try on homemade PCBs.

The sensitizing solution can be purchased and you can make real plated
through holes if you really need them.

But that's too much trouble for me. I only use the TT process to make
small
quantities of boards for ham radio projects.

Bob Macklin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by Jeff Heiss

What is plasma eating?



Jeff



_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of brane2
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:24 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire





Dne 02. 01. 2013 23:29, pis(e Charles R. Patton:

<SNIP>
>
> "plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
> to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
> ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
> do so?
>
Monitoring the current through exploding wire might give you a clue.

Also, plasma eating might offer much more controll of the process over
simple explosion.

> Reply via web post
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNzd0dDhuBF9TA
zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1MDUzNjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDgzMjkxBG1zZ0lkAzMxMjI5BHNlY
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire

2013-01-03 by brane2

Dne 03. 01. 2013 04:48, pis(e Jeff Heiss:
>
> What is plasma eating?
>
No standard technical term, I think. I meant with it using constant
spark of such strenght that its plasma vaporizes copper electrode - thin
wire in PCB hole. By controlling the timng and current one could control
amount of copper.





>
> Jeff
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf Of brane2
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:24 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: plating holes with an exploding wire
>
> Dne 02. 01. 2013 23:29, pis(e Charles R. Patton:
>
> <SNIP>
> >
> > "plated" through hole. But I've been a electronics designer long enough
> > to be skeptical of simple statements. Simple designs could have amazing
> > ways of failing. So one wire explodes OK, but will the next 1000 wires
> > do so?
> >
> Monitoring the current through exploding wire might give you a clue.
>
> Also, plasma eating might offer much more controll of the process over
> simple explosion.
>
> > Reply via web post
> >
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