Homebrew_PCBs

Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.

When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the traces also were partially destroyed.

Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.

On 02/12/12 08:16, bruce_fleming wrote:

> Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride
> has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using
> ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic
> acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.
>
> When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated
> but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the
> traces also were partially destroyed.
>
> Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching
> outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.

You only need less than 5% HCl acid in the etchant. There should be minimal fumes.

"etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper."

Are you talking about the peroxide + muriatic acid etchant or the one that is based initially on copper (II) chloride? While it is true that the former eventually becomes the latter, at the outset, they are not the same. The peroxide etchant is more aggressive. I tried using the peroxide method with a photoresist, and it eat the resist that I use (Injectorall). That might be part of your problem.

Of the three etchants you mention, ferric chloride is the easiest to use and gives the best results in terms of minimal undercutting, a broad endpoint, and fine lines. I suggest using that until you get a method working. When I switched to cupric chloride, the biggest change I noticed was at the end point. It was easier to over etch the PCB.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: bruce_fleming
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride Fumes



Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.

When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the traces also were partially destroyed.

Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The HCl solution I used is only 3% and the fumes were not too bad. I do not want things in the basement to rust or get that "brown" film from the fumes. Just as important is the effect it can have on the human body.

I might end up using ferric chloride in the colder months and cupric chloride again when it gets warmer when I can do that outside.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:
>
> On 02/12/12 08:16, bruce_fleming wrote:
> > Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride
> > has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using
> > ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic
> > acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.
> >
> > When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated
> > but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the
> > traces also were partially destroyed.
> >
> > Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching
> > outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.
>
> You only need less than 5% HCl acid in the etchant. There should be minimal fumes.
>

The etching solution is made from muriatic acid (1 part) added to HCl (2 parts). Here is the link on Instructables:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/#step1

I had a lot of problems with the ferric chloride while the least problems with undercutting with the new muriatic acid + HCl (becomes cupric chloride) solution. With the ferric chloride, the pcb had thin traces which I think are attributed to undercutting. The cupric chloride did eat away some of the traces but not as much as the ferric chloride.

There were some other factors with the ferric chloride that I can work on eliminating. One of them would be to heat the solution to working temperature varying from 45 degrees Celsius to 55 degrees Celsius and when ready, then place the board in the etchant.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Anhalt" <janhalt@...> wrote:
>
> "etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper."
>
> Are you talking about the peroxide + muriatic acid etchant or the one that is based initially on copper (II) chloride? While it is true that the former eventually becomes the latter, at the outset, they are not the same. The peroxide etchant is more aggressive. I tried using the peroxide method with a photoresist, and it eat the resist that I use (Injectorall). That might be part of your problem.
>
> Of the three etchants you mention, ferric chloride is the easiest to use and gives the best results in terms of minimal undercutting, a broad endpoint, and fine lines. I suggest using that until you get a method working. When I switched to cupric chloride, the biggest change I noticed was at the end point. It was easier to over etch the PCB.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bruce_fleming
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 4:16 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride Fumes
>
>
>
> Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.
>
> When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the traces also were partially destroyed.
>
> Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

"I had a lot of problems with the ferric chloride while the least problems with undercutting with the new muriatic acid + HCl (becomes cupric chloride) solution. "

Your chemistry is very confusing. Muriatic acid is HCl. The concentrations from your recipe also do not make sense. I am sure there is a simple explanation, such as some typos.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: bruce_fleming
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 10:23 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Chloride Fumes



The etching solution is made from muriatic acid (1 part) added to HCl (2 parts). Here is the link on Instructables:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/#step1

I had a lot of problems with the ferric chloride while the least problems with undercutting with the new muriatic acid + HCl (becomes cupric chloride) solution. With the ferric chloride, the pcb had thin traces which I think are attributed to undercutting. The cupric chloride did eat away some of the traces but not as much as the ferric chloride.

There were some other factors with the ferric chloride that I can work on eliminating. One of them would be to heat the solution to working temperature varying from 45 degrees Celsius to 55 degrees Celsius and when ready, then place the board in the etchant.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Anhalt" <janhalt@...> wrote:
>
> "etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper."
>
> Are you talking about the peroxide + muriatic acid etchant or the one that is based initially on copper (II) chloride? While it is true that the former eventually becomes the latter, at the outset, they are not the same. The peroxide etchant is more aggressive. I tried using the peroxide method with a photoresist, and it eat the resist that I use (Injectorall). That might be part of your problem.
>
> Of the three etchants you mention, ferric chloride is the easiest to use and gives the best results in terms of minimal undercutting, a broad endpoint, and fine lines. I suggest using that until you get a method working. When I switched to cupric chloride, the biggest change I noticed was at the end point. It was easier to over etch the PCB.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bruce_fleming
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 4:16 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride Fumes
>
>
>
> Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.
>
> When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the traces also were partially destroyed.
>
> Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 03/12/12 02:14, bruce_fleming wrote:

>
>
> The HCl solution I used is only 3% and the fumes were not too bad. I do not
> want things in the basement to rust or get that "brown" film from the fumes.
> Just as important is the effect it can have on the human body.

HCl is naturally occuring in the 'body'.

> I might end up using ferric chloride in the colder months and cupric chloride
> again when it gets warmer when I can do that outside.

> > The HCl solution I used is only 3% and the fumes were not too bad. I
> > do not want things in the basement to rust or get that "brown" film from

the

> fumes.
> > Just as important is the effect it can have on the human body.
>
> HCl is naturally occuring in the 'body'.

...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink & bathe in then? Neat!

Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.

Tony

On 03/12/12 19:29, Tony Smith wrote:

>>> The HCl solution I used is only 3% and the fumes were not too bad. I
>>> do not want things in the basement to rust or get that "brown" film from
> the
>> fumes.
>>> Just as important is the effect it can have on the human body.
>>
>> HCl is naturally occuring in the 'body'.
>
>
> ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink& bathe in then? Neat!

Ok if it's not real concentrated.

> Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.

The stuff in the hardware shop is "reasonably" concentrated, but i used to
de-rust steel with it diluted 3:1. Gloves weren't needed, but a cut would sting
a bit (like lemon juice or vinegar).

The green enviro wussies would use surgical gloves just to pick their nose;)

> >>> The HCl solution I used is only 3% and the fumes were not too bad. I
> >>> do not want things in the basement to rust or get that "brown" film
> >>> from
> > the
> >> fumes.
> >>> Just as important is the effect it can have on the human body.
> >>
> >> HCl is naturally occuring in the 'body'.
> >
> >
> > ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink& bathe in then? Neat!
>
> Ok if it's not real concentrated.
>
> > Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> > fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.
>
> The stuff in the hardware shop is "reasonably" concentrated, but i used to

de-

> rust steel with it diluted 3:1. Gloves weren't needed, but a cut would

sting a bit

> (like lemon juice or vinegar).
>
> The green enviro wussies would use surgical gloves just to pick their

nose;)


So not-very-concentrated diluted-down-lots HCL is perfectly ok. Got it.

I'll pour some on my cornflakes now.

Tony

Thank you for drawing my attention to the fact that HCl and muriatic acid are the same thing. If I had not been in a rush and thought about the words of hydrogen peroxide I would have determined the HCl thing by process of elimination. It does pay to pay attention to what you are asking.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Anhalt" <janhalt@...> wrote:
>
> "I had a lot of problems with the ferric chloride while the least problems with undercutting with the new muriatic acid + HCl (becomes cupric chloride) solution. "
>
> Your chemistry is very confusing. Muriatic acid is HCl. The concentrations from your recipe also do not make sense. I am sure there is a simple explanation, such as some typos.
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bruce_fleming
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 10:23 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Chloride Fumes
>
>
>
> The etching solution is made from muriatic acid (1 part) added to HCl (2 parts). Here is the link on Instructables:
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/#step1
>
> I had a lot of problems with the ferric chloride while the least problems with undercutting with the new muriatic acid + HCl (becomes cupric chloride) solution. With the ferric chloride, the pcb had thin traces which I think are attributed to undercutting. The cupric chloride did eat away some of the traces but not as much as the ferric chloride.
>
> There were some other factors with the ferric chloride that I can work on eliminating. One of them would be to heat the solution to working temperature varying from 45 degrees Celsius to 55 degrees Celsius and when ready, then place the board in the etchant.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Anhalt" <janhalt@> wrote:
> >
> > "etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper."
> >
> > Are you talking about the peroxide + muriatic acid etchant or the one that is based initially on copper (II) chloride? While it is true that the former eventually becomes the latter, at the outset, they are not the same. The peroxide etchant is more aggressive. I tried using the peroxide method with a photoresist, and it eat the resist that I use (Injectorall). That might be part of your problem.
> >
> > Of the three etchants you mention, ferric chloride is the easiest to use and gives the best results in terms of minimal undercutting, a broad endpoint, and fine lines. I suggest using that until you get a method working. When I switched to cupric chloride, the biggest change I noticed was at the end point. It was easier to over etch the PCB.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bruce_fleming
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 4:16 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride Fumes
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi all. I am new to this forum and am working on etching. The ferric chloride has been tried a few times. While searching for better ways to etch using ferric chloride I came across an Instructables on how to etch with muriatic acid so you do not have throw out your solution when saturated with copper.
> >
> > When I tried the Cupric Chloride the I made sure the area was well ventilated but I believe the cold slowed down the etching process so much that the traces also were partially destroyed.
> >
> > Has anybody found a fume hood that will handle cupric chloride? Etching outside or with a window open is not a good option in the winter.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On 03/12/2012 22:27, bruce_fleming wrote:

> Thank you for drawing my attention to the fact that HCl and muriatic
> acid are the same thing.

It's often called Spirits of Salt in UK hardware shops, they won't
recognise hydrochloric acid or muriatic acid.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Joking and kidding is fine for something but not something very toxic. Not sure if there is any antidote if you drink the stuff.

Drink the stuff and you will DIE! here are two MSDS
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923592
http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp22/CuCl2.pdf

something to think about and how much safety precaution you want to use or just not use it!!

Wikipedia says something little different but like any transitional metal salt, I'll be extra careful in handling. Always wear gloves.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink & bathe in then? Neat!
>
> Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.
>
> Tony
>

anybody have a link to something to store this in? currently in a clear glass jar but I understand sunlight weakens it? I can't find any smaller dark glass jars w/out metal anywhere. meh

bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "smilingcat90254" <smilingcat@...> wrote:
>
> Joking and kidding is fine for something but not something very toxic. Not sure if there is any antidote if you drink the stuff.
>
> Drink the stuff and you will DIE! here are two MSDS
> http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923592
> http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp22/CuCl2.pdf
>
> something to think about and how much safety precaution you want to use or just not use it!!
>
> Wikipedia says something little different but like any transitional metal salt, I'll be extra careful in handling. Always wear gloves.
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@> wrote:
>
> > ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink & bathe in then? Neat!
> >
> > Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> > fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>

" but I understand sunlight weakens it? "

Where do you hear such stuff? Sunlight, if anything, helps keep it oxidized. The copper isn't going anywhere. I store mine either in its all glass etching tank or Tupperware plastic.

Stay away from Bakelite lids with paper liners; although, if it has a Teflon or PE liner, it probably is OK.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: dubob4432
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:25 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Chloride Fumes



anybody have a link to something to store this in? currently in a clear glass jar but I understand sunlight weakens it? I can't find any smaller dark glass jars w/out metal anywhere. meh

bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "smilingcat90254" <smilingcat@...> wrote:
>
> Joking and kidding is fine for something but not something very toxic. Not sure if there is any antidote if you drink the stuff.
>
> Drink the stuff and you will DIE! here are two MSDS
> http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923592
> http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp22/CuCl2.pdf
>
> something to think about and how much safety precaution you want to use or just not use it!!
>
> Wikipedia says something little different but like any transitional metal salt, I'll be extra careful in handling. Always wear gloves.
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@> wrote:
>
> > ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink & bathe in then? Neat!
> >
> > Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> > fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In article <k9lf6s+cd68@...>,
dubob4432 <dubob4432@...> wrote:

> anybody have a link to something to store this in? currently in a clear
> glass jar but I understand sunlight weakens it? I can't find any
> smaller dark glass jars w/out metal anywhere. meh

Cut up a black plastic bin bag and secure round your existing jar?

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

Something like this should workŠ

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&
sku=335945&is=REG&si=rev#costumerReview

Any photographic developer bottle should work. Most photo stores that still
cater for the film market should have them. Developer bottles usually are
conecertina so you can force all the air out but they would still work for
etchant being opaque.


Regards,
John


From: dubob4432 <dubob4432@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:25:32 -0000
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Chloride Fumes






anybody have a link to something to store this in? currently in a clear
glass jar but I understand sunlight weakens it? I can't find any smaller
dark glass jars w/out metal anywhere. meh

bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "smilingcat90254"
<smilingcat@...> wrote:

>
> Joking and kidding is fine for something but not something very toxic. Not

sure if there is any antidote if you drink the stuff.

>
> Drink the stuff and you will DIE! here are two MSDS
> http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923592
> http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp22/CuCl2.pdf
>
> something to think about and how much safety precaution you want to use or

just not use it!!

>
> Wikipedia says something little different but like any transitional metal

salt, I'll be extra careful in handling. Always wear gloves.

>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>

, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@> wrote:

>
> > ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink & bathe in then? Neat!
> >
> > Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> > fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe thinking that light would probably help decompose the peroxide content
if any?

From: John Anhalt <janhalt@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:01:34 -0500
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Chloride Fumes






" but I understand sunlight weakens it? "

Where do you hear such stuff? Sunlight, if anything, helps keep it
oxidized. The copper isn't going anywhere. I store mine either in its all
glass etching tank or Tupperware plastic.

Stay away from Bakelite lids with paper liners; although, if it has a Teflon
or PE liner, it probably is OK.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: dubob4432
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:25 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Chloride Fumes

anybody have a link to something to store this in? currently in a clear
glass jar but I understand sunlight weakens it? I can't find any smaller
dark glass jars w/out metal anywhere. meh

bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "smilingcat90254"
<smilingcat@...> wrote:
>
> Joking and kidding is fine for something but not something very toxic.
Not sure if there is any antidote if you drink the stuff.
>
> Drink the stuff and you will DIE! here are two MSDS
> http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923592
> http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp22/CuCl2.pdf
>
> something to think about and how much safety precaution you want to use
or just not use it!!
>
> Wikipedia says something little different but like any transitional metal
salt, I'll be extra careful in handling. Always wear gloves.
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tony Smith" <ajsmith1968@>
wrote:
>
> > ...so it's perfectly ok to breathe, drink & bathe in then? Neat!
> >
> > Just the thing to clean out that stubborn bit of grease under your
> > fingernails, or add a bit more kick to your evening cocktail.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]