Homebrew_PCBs

Hi,

Does anyone know of a source of HCl in the UK? I would like to have a go at
using cupric chloride etching.

I had a look in building material suppliers but all they sell is 'concrete
cleaner' that is quite dilute and has lots of detergent in it.

TIA,
Les

In article <00a701c3a3dd$a16b75a0$0c00a8c0@house>,
Les Newell <lesnewell@...> wrote:

> Hi,

> Does anyone know of a source of HCl in the UK? I would like to have a go
> at using cupric chloride etching.

I used to be able to get it at my local chemist (a small independent) but
he stopped keeping it because of some change in the rules.

You could try

http://www.raycochemicals.f9.co.uk

who specialise is selling photographic chemicals to the amateur. They
certainly list 10% HCl. I don't know how strong you need. I would be
interested to know how you get on as I used to add a little to my Ferric
Chloride when it was getting a bit "tired"

Stuart

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| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No2 - A greenhouse heater.

Lookup industrial chemical suppliers in the yellow pages, and
find someone selling in 20 liter drums of concentrated HCl
(33%wt), its cheap. HCl is not a bomb making material so I can't
see it being tightly regulated. Maybe the UK government had for
some reason stopped HCl being sold in the domestic market.

Adam

Les Newell wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of a source of HCl in the UK? I would like to have a go at
> using cupric chloride etching.
>
> I had a look in building material suppliers but all they sell is 'concrete
> cleaner' that is quite dilute and has lots of detergent in it.
>
> TIA,
> Les
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>From: Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Sources for HCl
>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:26:09 +1100
>
>Lookup industrial chemical suppliers in the yellow pages, and
>find someone selling in 20 liter drums of concentrated HCl
>(33%wt), its cheap. HCl is not a bomb making material so I can't
>see it being tightly regulated. Maybe the UK government had for
>some reason stopped HCl being sold in the domestic market.

I got some from an old-fashioned hardware store here in Hastings, packed in
a red plastic bottle by Blanchards (who also do NaOH). Ask for 'Spirits of
Salts'. It's sold for cleaning drains and descaling lavatories. It's 32% and
rather nasty - lots of fumes.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email: aqzf13 at dsl dot pipex dot com
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Thanks to all who replied.

Unfortunately I can't find any old fashioned hardware stores around here any
more and I am only experimenting ATM so 25l is slightly overkill. I might
give stuart's photography supplier a try.

Thanks,
Les

If that fails then still phone industrial chemical
suppliers. Ask them what quantities they sell, and if they
don't do 5 liter containers then they might be the best
people to ask where you might get the stuff. After all, they
are in the chemical business.

Adam

Les Newell wrote:

> Thanks to all who replied.
>
> Unfortunately I can't find any old fashioned hardware stores around here any
> more and I am only experimenting ATM so 25l is slightly overkill. I might
> give stuart's photography supplier a try.
>
> Thanks,
> Les
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

In article <3FA99521.6000800@...>,
Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

> Lookup industrial chemical suppliers in the yellow pages, and
> find someone selling in 20 liter drums of concentrated HCl
> (33%wt), its cheap. HCl is not a bomb making material so I can't
> see it being tightly regulated. Maybe the UK government had for
> some reason stopped HCl being sold in the domestic market.

I don't think it was a problem so much with it's sale, I don't /think/ it
even comes under any aspect of the poisons regulations. I think it was
tied up with safety legislation. Possibly to do with storage and I don't
think it was something he needed for himself so he decided not to keep it.

Could even have been tied up with liability towards a customer if they did
something silly, it's too long ago for me to remember exactly what he said.

It was probably around the time all the COSHH (control of substances
hazardous to health) legislation was introduced.

Stuart

--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
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| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No2 - A greenhouse heater.

In a message dated 11/5/2003 10:53:07 PM Central Standard Time,
leon_heller@... writes:
It's 32% and rather nasty - lots of fumes. [HCL]
Leon (and others!): "Nasty" is an UNDERstatement! Even if the stuff is kept
in a CLOSED bottle, ANYthing with any iron in it, probably even SOME
"stainless" alloys, will RUST, if located within three meters of this stuff in a
closed room, within a week!

The caveat, "Keep such OUTdoors!" is not just a "safety matter", but is good
advice in the interest of keeping brand-new tools and machinery LOOKING that
way!

Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In article <3FAA1370.4010003@...>,
Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

> If that fails then still phone industrial chemical
> suppliers. Ask them what quantities they sell, and if they
> don't do 5 liter containers then they might be the best
> people to ask where you might get the stuff. After all, they
> are in the chemical business.

You're really looking for a laboratory supplier. When I used work in a
chemistry lab we used to buy in 2.5l winchesters (large glass bottles) or
for HCl I remember 1l glass bottles. Nowadays it would probably be
polythene or such I guess. I seem to remember Fisons as a supplier but the
name "Griffin and George" comes to mind, though I think that was more for
equipment.

I suppose you know that Farnell sell things like beakers, measuring
cylinders and other useful chemistry type stuff?

What is the "mix", or process for cupric chloride etching BTW - I've only
ever used Ferric Chloride.

Stuart.

--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No2 - A greenhouse heater.

Get a better bottle :) A PET soft drink bottle are better at
holding gases.
I know what you mean though, the concentrated stuff just seems to
seep its way passed anything other than good quality rubber
washer sealed bottle tops. The standard polyethylene foam seals
of common bottle tops don't hold out.


JanRwl@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/5/2003 10:53:07 PM Central Standard Time,
> leon_heller@... writes:
> It's 32% and rather nasty - lots of fumes. [HCL]
> Leon (and others!): "Nasty" is an UNDERstatement! Even if the stuff is kept
> in a CLOSED bottle, ANYthing with any iron in it, probably even SOME
> "stainless" alloys, will RUST, if located within three meters of this stuff in a
> closed room, within a week!
>
> The caveat, "Keep such OUTdoors!" is not just a "safety matter", but is good
> advice in the interest of keeping brand-new tools and machinery LOOKING that
> way!
>
> Jan Rowland
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi Stuart,
I am taking my recipe from here:
http://www.pacificsun.ca/~robert/pcb/cucl.htm

The only difference is that I am using methylene orange rather than
bromophenol blue because it is cheaper and I can get it. The PH ranges for
the two indicators seem to be virtually identical so methylene orange should
be a good substitute.

You don't have to use copper oxide. You can add scrap copper to the acid and
leave it in a bubble tank for a couple of weeks. I have heard that a table
spoon of used ferric chloride speeds things up.

In the end I ordered from www.labpakchemicals.co.uk as they could supply
everything I wanted at a reasonable price. I tried phoning a local chemical
supplier and their prices were about the same but they had a 2 week lead
time. The only disadvantage with labpak is that they have a 50 pound minimum
order but I made that up with sulphuric acid for anodizing and some
flourescein for a friend to trace a drain with. Flourescein is pretty
harmless but even the slightest trace in water shows up bright green. As a
kid I added some to a swimming pool once. The whole pool ended up
flourescent green :-)

Oh, by the way I have found a great way of removing ferric chloride
deposits. I was given a tank that was in a terrible state but a few hours
soaking in concrete cleaner brought it up like new.

I know about Farnell. I have an account with RS components and they sell
quite a bit of chemistry type stuff as well.

Les

>
> You're really looking for a laboratory supplier. When I used work in a
> chemistry lab we used to buy in 2.5l winchesters (large glass bottles) or
> for HCl I remember 1l glass bottles. Nowadays it would probably be
> polythene or such I guess. I seem to remember Fisons as a supplier but the
> name "Griffin and George" comes to mind, though I think that was more for
> equipment.
>
> I suppose you know that Farnell sell things like beakers, measuring
> cylinders and other useful chemistry type stuff?
>
> What is the "mix", or process for cupric chloride etching BTW - I've only
> ever used Ferric Chloride.
>
> Stuart.
>

In article <009901c3a563$98f0f760$0c00a8c0@house>,
Les Newell <lesnewell@...> wrote:

> Hi Stuart, I am taking my recipe from here:
> http://www.pacificsun.ca/~robert/pcb/cucl.htm

Couldn't get anywhere with that link I'm afraid. My browser tried and
after a long time gave up. I'll try again another time - the site may be
temporarily down.

> The only difference is that I am using methylene orange rather than
> bromophenol blue because it is cheaper and I can get it. The PH ranges
> for the two indicators seem to be virtually identical so methylene
> orange should be a good substitute.

It's two long now for me to remember the different charachtaristics of
indicators and my books are all in the loft.

> You don't have to use copper oxide. You can add scrap copper to the acid
> and leave it in a bubble tank for a couple of weeks. I have heard that a
> table spoon of used ferric chloride speeds things up.

> In the end I ordered from www.labpakchemicals.co.uk as they could supply
> everything I wanted at a reasonable price.

Looks interesting

> I tried phoning a local
> chemical supplier and their prices were about the same but they had a 2
> week lead time. The only disadvantage with labpak is that they have a 50
> pound minimum order

I'd have to think hard about how to make that value up I think.

> but I made that up with sulphuric acid for anodizing

I remember seing a "how to do it" article in Elektor some years ago - I've
still got it somewhere - looked interesting but obtaining chemicals seemed
to be a problem

> and some flourescein for a friend to trace a drain with. Flourescein is
> pretty harmless but even the slightest trace in water shows up bright
> green. As a kid I added some to a swimming pool once. The whole pool
> ended up flourescent green :-)

Ahh yes, tell me about it :-)

> Oh, by the way I have found a great way of removing ferric chloride
> deposits. I was given a tank that was in a terrible state but a few
> hours soaking in concrete cleaner brought it up like new.

Thanks for the tip.

> I know about Farnell. I have an account with RS components and they sell
> quite a bit of chemistry type stuff as well.

That's new with the latest catalogue. Farnell have had the stuff "for
years"

I use both and CPC too. Do you know about

http://www.megauk.com/ ?

for PCB stuff

Stuart

--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No2 - A greenhouse heater.

These and many more links can be yours, just for visiting the Links on
the list!

Just pull back the curtain on "Acid etching tips and suppliers"!

OK, it's late, I'm getting goofy.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Les Newell" <lesnewell@f...> wrote:
> Hi Stuart,
> I am taking my recipe from here:
> http://www.pacificsun.ca/~robert/pcb/cucl.htm

-snip-

> > What is the "mix", or process for cupric chloride etching BTW -
I've only
> > ever used Ferric Chloride.
> >
> > Stuart.
> >

In article <boi3cl+am9c@...>,
Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> These and many more links can be yours, just for visiting the Links on
> the list!

> Just pull back the curtain on "Acid etching tips and suppliers"!

Sorry for my ignorance Steve but being a newbie around here how do I find
this?

Stuart.

--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No2 - A greenhouse heater.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Winsor
<stuartwinsor@a...> wrote:

> In article <boi3cl+am9c@e...>,
> Steve <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> > These and many more links can be yours, just for visiting the

Links on

> > the list!
>
> > Just pull back the curtain on "Acid etching tips and suppliers"!
>
> Sorry for my ignorance Steve but being a newbie around here how do

I find

> this?
>
> Stuart.

Visit the website instead of the e-mail version of the list.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

then go to the links section. and presto ! bunchs of links.


Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Winsor
<stuartwinsor@a...> wrote:

> In article <boi3cl+am9c@e...>,
> Steve <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> > These and many more links can be yours, just for visiting the Links on
> > the list!
>
> > Just pull back the curtain on "Acid etching tips and suppliers"!
>
> Sorry for my ignorance Steve but being a newbie around here how do I

find

> this?

Go to the Homebrew_PCBs group page and click on "Links", then "Acid
Etching Tips and Suppliers". The link itself is too long, and you have
to be logged in first anyway, so here's the home page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

Steve Greenfield