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More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-15 by Mike Sinclair

Sorry for the lag.....gainful employment comes first.

Believe me, I am not in any way casting dispersions towards those of you who might see too many "warts" to this method or would rather deal with paint-on or vinyl masks and etchant but I believe this way shows a lot of promise, is quicker than any other way, not messy, fairly low-cost and still has some more improvements to come. More expensive cutters may do a better job but, for now, I'm focusing on the ones that target the cost-sensitive scrapbooking hobby market - it's just too good a tool to pass up for re-purposing.

As requested, I have uploaded a movie "cutting" a simple PCB.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQEncvJLrro&feature=youtube_gdata
I also posted some microscope photos on my web page http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/. So you can see (or verify for yourself if you have one of these machines) that this does, indeed, cut through copper clad. I continuity-checked this board and, before checking and correcting under a microscope, found 100% continuity and one short that was easily fixed.

Now for some nitty gritty:

I have posted (and will continue to post) the methods and equipment I use(d). As you can see by the zoomed-out picture of the board, the lines are somewhat wavy. I'm not sure what causes this or if it can be improved. It may be due to the mechanical integrity of the cutting head (or lack of) and drive belt (too much compliance?) or that additional cutter compensation is required. This problem limits the minimum trace width to something larger than a well-executed, chemically etched PCB can do.

I used 1/32" 0.5 oz copper clad PCB material available from wwww.digikey.com (and elsewhere). I will experiment later with the more common 1.0 oz but for now, the 0.5 oz will cut with a single pass of a not-new blade.

Note that if you get a clean mechanical and electrically isolated etch, there is no need to "weed" or remove the unwanted copper unless it's for high voltage or special RF work. Many times, extra ground plane can lower noise. You just have to remember to ground those islands.

Something I've been working on is front-to-back registration for double sided PCBs. The cutter I'm using has the ability to lay down registration marks which can be read by the cutter head.  More later....

The knife can leave behind tiny shards of copper that will have to be removed with fine tweezers under an eye-loupe or cheap microscope. This is also generally required in the workflow of the desktop milling machine approach to mechanically etched PCBs. These shards will either cause immediate shorts or, worse, cause a short later on so you need to look at the etched PCB under magnification and remove these or correct any obvious problems with a knife or tweezers. If you still detect a short with an ohmmeter or an audible continuity tester (best) that you can't see, I use a ~10 uF capacitor charged up to around 30 volts and discharge across the offending circuit traces that will usually zap the offending shard while leaving the trace(s) alone. Experiment. I would suggest NOT scrubbing with ScotchBrite as you do with mill-etched PCBs as it may fold over the raised copper back into the cut trough, shorting the traces.

Some have asked about the life of the blade. My answer to that is to use 3rd party 45 degree, carbide blades (the vendor is also listed on my website). They're about $8.50 ea but are worth it. Consider the same material (single crystal carbide) that is in the "V" shaped milling bits used in the expensive mechanical etchers (TTech, LPKF, Accurate360) and spin at ~60,000rpm while the XY direction moves relatively slowly. The tip touches and is abraded by the glass in the FR-4 substrate in both methods. If you think about it, those spinning bits have a tangential contact length on the PCB material many orders of magnitude more than a single pass of the carbide blade in a CNC paper cutter. I do notice that the fine tip on my blade get broken off early in the cutting process but the blade still works and lasts quite long.

Something else I've noticed that may be a positive (but the jury's still out) is the "cup" formed by the furrowing blade that piles up copper on the edges of the cut. This cupping around pads to be soldered tends to reduce solder bridges as the solder wants to pool in the cup.

More to come if there's any interest.

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-15 by AlienRelics

We're not criticizing, just sharing methods.

Did you mean to spell that "CirCuts" in the video title? Good video. I think it would be enhanced with a few close-ups, stills maybe, of the completed PCB.

If my Graphtec were not out of commission (moved it, now it doesn't work correctly), I'd toss a blank in it and try cutting. I have no idea if it can muster the downforce necessary. It does make sense that the CriCut would be able to push down very hard.

Please, keep us informed of your progress.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sinclair <sinclair@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Sorry for the lag.....gainful employment comes first.
> 
> Believe me, I am not in any way casting dispersions towards those of you who might see too many "warts" to this method or would rather deal with paint-on or vinyl masks and etchant but I believe this way shows a lot of promise, is quicker than any other way, not messy, fairly low-cost and still has some more improvements to come. More expensive cutters may do a better job but, for now, I'm focusing on the ones that target the cost-sensitive scrapbooking hobby market - it's just too good a tool to pass up for re-purposing.
> 
> As requested, I have uploaded a movie "cutting" a simple PCB.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQEncvJLrro&feature=youtube_gdata
> I also posted some microscope photos on my web page http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/. So you can see (or verify for yourself if you have one of these machines) that this does, indeed, cut through copper clad. I continuity-checked this board and, before checking and correcting under a microscope, found 100% continuity and one short that was easily fixed.
> 
> Now for some nitty gritty:
> 
> I have posted (and will continue to post) the methods and equipment I use(d). As you can see by the zoomed-out picture of the board, the lines are somewhat wavy. I'm not sure what causes this or if it can be improved. It may be due to the mechanical integrity of the cutting head (or lack of) and drive belt (too much compliance?) or that additional cutter compensation is required. This problem limits the minimum trace width to something larger than a well-executed, chemically etched PCB can do.
> 
> I used 1/32" 0.5 oz copper clad PCB material available from wwww.digikey.com (and elsewhere). I will experiment later with the more common 1.0 oz but for now, the 0.5 oz will cut with a single pass of a not-new blade.
> 
> Note that if you get a clean mechanical and electrically isolated etch, there is no need to "weed" or remove the unwanted copper unless it's for high voltage or special RF work. Many times, extra ground plane can lower noise. You just have to remember to ground those islands.
> 
> Something I've been working on is front-to-back registration for double sided PCBs. The cutter I'm using has the ability to lay down registration marks which can be read by the cutter head.  More later....
> 
> The knife can leave behind tiny shards of copper that will have to be removed with fine tweezers under an eye-loupe or cheap microscope. This is also generally required in the workflow of the desktop milling machine approach to mechanically etched PCBs. These shards will either cause immediate shorts or, worse, cause a short later on so you need to look at the etched PCB under magnification and remove these or correct any obvious problems with a knife or tweezers. If you still detect a short with an ohmmeter or an audible continuity tester (best) that you can't see, I use a ~10 uF capacitor charged up to around 30 volts and discharge across the offending circuit traces that will usually zap the offending shard while leaving the trace(s) alone. Experiment. I would suggest NOT scrubbing with ScotchBrite as you do with mill-etched PCBs as it may fold over the raised copper back into the cut trough, shorting the traces.
> 
> Some have asked about the life of the blade. My answer to that is to use 3rd party 45 degree, carbide blades (the vendor is also listed on my website). They're about $8.50 ea but are worth it. Consider the same material (single crystal carbide) that is in the "V" shaped milling bits used in the expensive mechanical etchers (TTech, LPKF, Accurate360) and spin at ~60,000rpm while the XY direction moves relatively slowly. The tip touches and is abraded by the glass in the FR-4 substrate in both methods. If you think about it, those spinning bits have a tangential contact length on the PCB material many orders of magnitude more than a single pass of the carbide blade in a CNC paper cutter. I do notice that the fine tip on my blade get broken off early in the cutting process but the blade still works and lasts quite long.
> 
> Something else I've noticed that may be a positive (but the jury's still out) is the "cup" formed by the furrowing blade that piles up copper on the edges of the cut. This cupping around pads to be soldered tends to reduce solder bridges as the solder wants to pool in the cup.
> 
> More to come if there's any interest.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-15 by MIKE DURKIN

I think Silhouette makes the best, low cost hobbyist cutter ... no cartridges!!!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----

From: Mike Sinclair
Sent: 15 Jun 2012 21:43:11 GMT
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter

Sorry for the lag.....gainful employment comes first.

Believe me, I am not in any way casting dispersions towards those of you who might see too many "warts" to this method or would rather deal with paint-on or vinyl masks and etchant but I believe this way shows a lot of promise, is quicker than any other way, not messy, fairly low-cost and still has some more improvements to come. More expensive cutters may do a better job but, for now, I'm focusing on the ones that target the cost-sensitive scrapbooking hobby market - it's just too good a tool to pass up for re-purposing.

As requested, I have uploaded a movie "cutting" a simple PCB.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQEncvJLrro&feature=youtube_gdata
I also posted some microscope photos on my web page http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/. So you can see (or verify for yourself if you have one of these machines) that this does, indeed, cut through copper clad. I continuity-checked this board and, before checking and correcting under a microscope, found 100% continuity and one short that was easily fixed.

Now for some nitty gritty:

I have posted (and will continue to post) the methods and equipment I use(d). As you can see by the zoomed-out picture of the board, the lines are somewhat wavy. I'm not sure what causes this or if it can be improved. It may be due to the mechanical integrity of the cutting head (or lack of) and drive belt (too much compliance?) or that additional cutter compensation is required. This problem limits the minimum trace width to something larger than a well-executed, chemically etched PCB can do.

I used 1/32" 0.5 oz copper clad PCB material available from wwww.digikey.com (and elsewhere). I will experiment later with the more common 1.0 oz but for now, the 0.5 oz will cut with a single pass of a not-new blade.

Note that if you get a clean mechanical and electrically isolated etch, there is no need to "weed" or remove the unwanted copper unless it's for high voltage or special RF work. Many times, extra ground plane can lower noise. You just have to remember to ground those islands.

Something I've been working on is front-to-back registration for double sided PCBs. The cutter I'm using has the ability to lay down registration marks which can be read by the cutter head.  More later....

The knife can leave behind tiny shards of copper that will have to be removed with fine tweezers under an eye-loupe or cheap microscope. This is also generally required in the workflow of the desktop milling machine approach to mechanically etched PCBs. These shards will either cause immediate shorts or, worse, cause a short later on so you need to look at the etched PCB under magnification and remove these or correct any obvious problems with a knife or tweezers. If you still detect a short with an ohmmeter or an audible continuity tester (best) that you can't see, I use a ~10 uF capacitor charged up to around 30 volts and discharge across the offending circuit traces that will usually zap the offending shard while leaving the trace(s) alone. Experiment. I would suggest NOT scrubbing with ScotchBrite as you do with mill-etched PCBs as it may fold over the raised copper back into the cut trough, shorting the traces.

Some have asked about the life of the blade. My answer to that is to use 3rd party 45 degree, carbide blades (the vendor is also listed on my website). They're about $8.50 ea but are worth it. Consider the same material (single crystal carbide) that is in the "V" shaped milling bits used in the expensive mechanical etchers (TTech, LPKF, Accurate360) and spin at ~60,000rpm while the XY direction moves relatively slowly. The tip touches and is abraded by the glass in the FR-4 substrate in both methods. If you think about it, those spinning bits have a tangential contact length on the PCB material many orders of magnitude more than a single pass of the carbide blade in a CNC paper cutter. I do notice that the fine tip on my blade get broken off early in the cutting process but the blade still works and lasts quite long.

Something else I've noticed that may be a positive (but the jury's still out) is the "cup" formed by the furrowing blade that piles up copper on the edges of the cut. This cupping around pads to be soldered tends to reduce solder bridges as the solder wants to pool in the cup.

More to come if there's any interest.

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-15 by Jeff Heiss

Where are the microscope photos located on your page
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs ?  I could not
spot them.

 

Jeff

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of MIKE DURKIN
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 7:23 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a
CNC paper cutter

 

  

I think Silhouette makes the best, low cost hobbyist cutter ... no
cartridges!!!

-----Original Message-----

From: Mike Sinclair
Sent: 15 Jun 2012 21:43:11 GMT
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC
paper cutter

Sorry for the lag.....gainful employment comes first.

Believe me, I am not in any way casting dispersions towards those of you who
might see too many "warts" to this method or would rather deal with paint-on
or vinyl masks and etchant but I believe this way shows a lot of promise, is
quicker than any other way, not messy, fairly low-cost and still has some
more improvements to come. More expensive cutters may do a better job but,
for now, I'm focusing on the ones that target the cost-sensitive
scrapbooking hobby market - it's just too good a tool to pass up for
re-purposing.

As requested, I have uploaded a movie "cutting" a simple PCB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQEncvJLrro
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQEncvJLrro&feature=youtube_gdata>
&feature=youtube_gdata
I also posted some microscope photos on my web page
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/.
<http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/>  So you can
see (or verify for yourself if you have one of these machines) that this
does, indeed, cut through copper clad. I continuity-checked this board and,
before checking and correcting under a microscope, found 100% continuity and
one short that was easily fixed.

Now for some nitty gritty:

I have posted (and will continue to post) the methods and equipment I
use(d). As you can see by the zoomed-out picture of the board, the lines are
somewhat wavy. I'm not sure what causes this or if it can be improved. It
may be due to the mechanical integrity of the cutting head (or lack of) and
drive belt (too much compliance?) or that additional cutter compensation is
required. This problem limits the minimum trace width to something larger
than a well-executed, chemically etched PCB can do.

I used 1/32" 0.5 oz copper clad PCB material available from wwww.digikey.com
(and elsewhere). I will experiment later with the more common 1.0 oz but for
now, the 0.5 oz will cut with a single pass of a not-new blade.

Note that if you get a clean mechanical and electrically isolated etch,
there is no need to "weed" or remove the unwanted copper unless it's for
high voltage or special RF work. Many times, extra ground plane can lower
noise. You just have to remember to ground those islands.

Something I've been working on is front-to-back registration for double
sided PCBs. The cutter I'm using has the ability to lay down registration
marks which can be read by the cutter head. More later....

The knife can leave behind tiny shards of copper that will have to be
removed with fine tweezers under an eye-loupe or cheap microscope. This is
also generally required in the workflow of the desktop milling machine
approach to mechanically etched PCBs. These shards will either cause
immediate shorts or, worse, cause a short later on so you need to look at
the etched PCB under magnification and remove these or correct any obvious
problems with a knife or tweezers. If you still detect a short with an
ohmmeter or an audible continuity tester (best) that you can't see, I use a
~10 uF capacitor charged up to around 30 volts and discharge across the
offending circuit traces that will usually zap the offending shard while
leaving the trace(s) alone. Experiment. I would suggest NOT scrubbing with
ScotchBrite as you do with mill-etched PCBs as it may fold over the raised
copper back into the cut trough, shorting the traces.

Some have asked about the life of the blade. My answer to that is to use 3rd
party 45 degree, carbide blades (the vendor is also listed on my website).
They're about $8.50 ea but are worth it. Consider the same material (single
crystal carbide) that is in the "V" shaped milling bits used in the
expensive mechanical etchers (TTech, LPKF, Accurate360) and spin at
~60,000rpm while the XY direction moves relatively slowly. The tip touches
and is abraded by the glass in the FR-4 substrate in both methods. If you
think about it, those spinning bits have a tangential contact length on the
PCB material many orders of magnitude more than a single pass of the carbide
blade in a CNC paper cutter. I do notice that the fine tip on my blade get
broken off early in the cutting process but the blade still works and lasts
quite long.

Something else I've noticed that may be a positive (but the jury's still
out) is the "cup" formed by the furrowing blade that piles up copper on the
edges of the cut. This cupping around pads to be soldered tends to reduce
solder bridges as the solder wants to pool in the cup.

More to come if there's any interest.

Mike

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-16 by javaguy11111

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sinclair <sinclair@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry for the lag.....gainful employment comes first.
> 
> Believe me, I am not in any way casting dispersions towards those of you who might see too many "warts" to this method or would rather deal with paint-on or vinyl masks and etchant but I believe this way 

I think everyone on this forum gets excited about faster, better, cheaper and easier ways to make circuit boards. So any questions asked are not meant to doubt, but just wanting to know more.

Thanks for the detailed description. When I had done my experimenting with a graver it was with 1 oz copper clad. I can see how having .5oz would make the cutting easier. I may even have some. I will have to check my stock and maybe do another graver test.

I think every method has its pluses and minus's. You just have to decide whats appropriate for your requirements. Your experimentation shows another way to make a pcb and provides another option.

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-16 by Mike Sinclair

Oops. Somehow my latest Microscope photos didn't get posted. I'll rectify soon. You'll see as I did that it does.

Yes, I NEVER thought it would cut through the copper but I guess I was the one who had to try it. I'm sure my parents didn't always like my curiosity, taking apart enything that had electronics or mechanisms. But now I'm a grown-up and can ruin things on my own :-).

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-18 by Mike Sinclair

OK, some microscope photos are uploaded to Homebrew_PCBs  Photo Archive and also posted on my website (no URLs allowed so don't know how to steer other than BING Microsoft Research and quick  printed circuit boards).

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-18 by Donald H Locker

URLs are most certainly allowed. Or am I missing something. Those in your previous message (15 Jun 5:35PM (TZ???)) came through fine.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Mike Sinclair" <sinclair@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 5:28:03 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
> OK, some microscope photos are uploaded to Homebrew_PCBs Photo Archive
> and also posted on my website (no URLs allowed so don't know how to
> steer other than BING Microsoft Research and quick printed circuit
> boards).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-18 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sinclair <sinclair@...> wrote:
>
> OK, some microscope photos are uploaded to Homebrew_PCBs  Photo Archive and also posted on my website (no URLs allowed so don't know how to steer other than BING Microsoft Research and quick  printed circuit boards).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

It it supposed to be a weird shape?

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-18 by AlienRelics

I can't find any photos or files. There are just too many Photos folders for me to go through them all. I looked in Homebrew_PCBs_Archives, too.

Could you upload them to this File area?

<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Sign_Cutter_to_make_PCBs/>

You most certainly are allowed to post URLs.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, Mike Sinclair <sinclair@> wrote:
> >
> > OK, some microscope photos are uploaded to Homebrew_PCBs  Photo Archive and also posted on my website (no URLs allowed so don't know how to steer other than BING Microsoft Research and quick  printed circuit boards).
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> It it supposed to be a weird shape?
>

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-19 by javaguy11111

If you switch to list view in the upper left hand corner in the Photo's folder and sort by Last Modified you can find the most recent photos.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I can't find any photos or files. There are just too many Photos folders for me to go through them all. I looked in Homebrew_PCBs_Archives, too.
>

Re: More Data - Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter

2012-06-20 by AlienRelics

I should not have to jump through those hoops. How would I know to look for "Quick PCB with CNC Paper Cutter"?

I try to think about future viewers looking for help. They may look for folders with titles starting with "vinyl cutter" or "Cricut". But "Quick"?

I have renamed the folder "CriCut PCB Test".

In spite of my griping, thanks Mike for posting these photos.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> If you switch to list view in the upper left hand corner in the Photo's folder and sort by Last Modified you can find the most recent photos.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@> wrote:
> >
> > I can't find any photos or files. There are just too many Photos folders for me to go through them all. I looked in Homebrew_PCBs_Archives, too.
> >
>