Homebrew PCBs

CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 

I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 

I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.

I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.

Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.

Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/

-mike

So, looking at your website, the CriCut was not a complete success but that it did cut entirely through the copper clad?

Having manually cut isolation with an Xacto, I'd have never guessed the relatively minor downforce from a CriCut or other vinyl cutter would be enough to cut all the way through the copper.

Do you have any photos you can upload?

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@...> wrote:

>
> CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 
> 
> I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 
> 
> I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.
> 
> I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.
> 
> Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.
> 
> Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> 
> -mike
>

I wish I'd noticed your project at the Seattle Mini Maker Faire. I was there, I was at the OlyMEGA booth with my Ultimaker 3D printer. I only got to look around twice.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@...> wrote:

>
> CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 
> 
> I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 
> 
> I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.
> 
> I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.
> 
> Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.
> 
> Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> 
> -mike
>

Sounds interesting, but as mentioned in another post it is surprising a vinyl cutter could cut through copper. Is this standard 1/16 inch 1 ounce FR4?

If you get a chance, can you post a video of it in action. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@...> wrote:

>
> CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 
> 
> I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 
> 
> I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.
> 
> I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.
> 
> Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.
> 
> Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> 
> -mike
>

Looks great. I also ask for photos/videos of that machine working in pcb.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Love the new concept.

Javaguy said ...
> Sounds interesting, but as mentioned in another post it is
> surprising a vinyl cutter could cut through copper. Is this
> standard 1/16 inch 1 ounce FR4?

AlienRelics said ...
> Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
> Having manually cut isolation with an Xacto, I'd have never
> guessed the relatively minor downforce from a CriCut or
> other vinyl cutter would be enough to cut all the way through
> the copper.

It does seem a bit unlikely that it would be up to the job but remember copper is a soft metal and if the carbide blade stays sharp it should do the job.

Also what may not be obvious to those who do not have a scrapbooking wife who yearns for such a cutter is that the CriCut has a bit more muscle than a basic vinyl cutter.  It is rated to cut card stock as well so has a larger downforce and rigidity than a pen plotter turned cutter.

Never mind the consumer machine, consider the implications of using such a blade in a small XYZ router with just a bit more downforce and rigidity and this might be the future of instant PCB DIY manufacture.

Kalle
--
Johannesburg, South Africa

I have posted a few blog entries on my attempts at PCBs on the Cricut.

The two methods I used were:

- Sharpie on PCB as etch resist (worked pretty well, the extra fine tip
industrial marker worked well enough to use some SMD parts).

http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2012/02/26/smd-pcb-rfid-fail/
http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2011/04/06/more-cricut-pcbs-the-sharpie-method/

- Spray on some paint as a resist, and scratching off lines to isolate
circuits using a scriber tool which has no "offset" problem. I had moderate
success with this, but the sharpie method is quicker and works better.  The
difficulty is, you need something pretty darn sharp to scratch off the
resist (or your copper..), but the sharper something is, the thinner the
line you are scratching off, and more trouble you'll have with bridges...
Perhaps a quick etch to try and widen the cuts?

http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2011/03/17/pcbs-on-the-cricut-2/
http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2011/03/29/pcb-process-update


I have not, however, actually tried to scratch off the copper like the
original poster. Those blades are pretty pricey, I wonder how long they
last in this application?

-David



On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:02 AM, KalleP <kalle@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Love the new concept.
>
> Javaguy said ...
>
> > Sounds interesting, but as mentioned in another post it is
> > surprising a vinyl cutter could cut through copper. Is this
> > standard 1/16 inch 1 ounce FR4?
>
> AlienRelics said ...
> > Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
>
> > Having manually cut isolation with an Xacto, I'd have never
> > guessed the relatively minor downforce from a CriCut or
> > other vinyl cutter would be enough to cut all the way through
> > the copper.
>
> It does seem a bit unlikely that it would be up to the job but remember
> copper is a soft metal and if the carbide blade stays sharp it should do
> the job.
>
> Also what may not be obvious to those who do not have a scrapbooking wife
> who yearns for such a cutter is that the CriCut has a bit more muscle than
> a basic vinyl cutter. It is rated to cut card stock as well so has a larger
> downforce and rigidity than a pen plotter turned cutter.
>
> Never mind the consumer machine, consider the implications of using such a
> blade in a small XYZ router with just a bit more downforce and rigidity and
> this might be the future of instant PCB DIY manufacture.
>
> Kalle
> --
> Johannesburg, South Africa
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You could, perhaps, buy some thin copper foil - say 4 mil - and glue 
it to fr4, then cut the traces. Copper foil comes in many thicknesses 
and might even be available with adhesive backing.
Mark



At 11:37 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote:

>I have posted a few blog entries on my attempts at PCBs on the Cricut.
>
>The two methods I used were:
>
>- Sharpie on PCB as etch resist (worked pretty well, the extra fine tip
>industrial marker worked well enough to use some SMD parts).
>
>http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2012/02/26/smd-pcb-rfid-fail/
>http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2011/04/06/more-cricut-pcbs-the-sharpie-method/
>
>- Spray on some paint as a resist, and scratching off lines to isolate
>circuits using a scriber tool which has no "offset" problem. I had moderate
>success with this, but the sharpie method is quicker and works better.  The
>difficulty is, you need something pretty darn sharp to scratch off the
>resist (or your copper..), but the sharper something is, the thinner the
>line you are scratching off, and more trouble you'll have with bridges...
>Perhaps a quick etch to try and widen the cuts?
>
>http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2011/03/17/pcbs-on-the-cricut-2/
>http://everhack.blog.atxhackerspace.org/2011/03/29/pcb-process-update
>
>
>I have not, however, actually tried to scratch off the copper like the
>original poster. Those blades are pretty pricey, I wonder how long they
>last in this application?
>
>-David
>
>
>
>On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:02 AM, KalleP <kalle@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Love the new concept.
> >
> > Javaguy said ...
> >
> > > Sounds interesting, but as mentioned in another post it is
> > > surprising a vinyl cutter could cut through copper. Is this
> > > standard 1/16 inch 1 ounce FR4?
> >
> > AlienRelics said ...
> > > Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
> >
> > > Having manually cut isolation with an Xacto, I'd have never
> > > guessed the relatively minor downforce from a CriCut or
> > > other vinyl cutter would be enough to cut all the way through
> > > the copper.
> >
> > It does seem a bit unlikely that it would be up to the job but remember
> > copper is a soft metal and if the carbide blade stays sharp it should do
> > the job.
> >
> > Also what may not be obvious to those who do not have a scrapbooking wife
> > who yearns for such a cutter is that the CriCut has a bit more muscle than
> > a basic vinyl cutter. It is rated to cut card stock as well so has a larger
> > downforce and rigidity than a pen plotter turned cutter.
> >
> > Never mind the consumer machine, consider the implications of using such a
> > blade in a small XYZ router with just a bit more downforce and rigidity and
> > this might be the future of instant PCB DIY manufacture.
> >
> > Kalle
> > --
> > Johannesburg, South Africa
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "KalleP" <kalle@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Love the new concept.
> 
> Javaguy said ...
> > Sounds interesting, but as mentioned in another post it is
> > surprising a vinyl cutter could cut through copper. Is this
> > standard 1/16 inch 1 ounce FR4?
> 
> AlienRelics said ...
> > Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
> > Having manually cut isolation with an Xacto, I'd have never
> > guessed the relatively minor downforce from a CriCut or
> > other vinyl cutter would be enough to cut all the way through
> > the copper.
> 
> It does seem a bit unlikely that it would be up to the job but remember copper is a soft metal and if the carbide blade stays sharp it should do the job.
> 
> Also what may not be obvious to those who do not have a scrapbooking wife who yearns for such a cutter is that the CriCut has a bit more muscle than a basic vinyl cutter.  It is rated to cut card stock as well so has a larger downforce and rigidity than a pen plotter turned cutter.
> 
> Never mind the consumer machine, consider the implications of using such a blade in a small XYZ router with just a bit more downforce and rigidity and this might be the future of instant PCB DIY manufacture.
> 
> Kalle
> --
> Johannesburg, South Africa
>

I have done a little experimentation in the past manually cutting traces using graver techniques. The copper itself cuts just fine, but getting it separated cleanly from the fiberglass is more of a problem.

I would think Cricut would have a similar problem issue. Still if it works, that would be great.

I agree,

It is easy to cut some copper tracks but it is very difficult to remove the
unwanted copper on good quality FR4.

Bertho

From:  javaguy11111   Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:56



I have done a little experimentation in the past manually cutting traces
using graver techniques. The copper itself cuts just fine, but getting it
separated cleanly from the fiberglass is more of a problem.

I would think Cricut would have a similar problem issue. Still if it works,
that would be great.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> You could, perhaps, buy some thin copper foil - say 4 mil - and glue it to
fr4,
> then cut the traces. Copper foil comes in many thicknesses and might even
be
> available with adhesive backing.


Indeed it does.  You can get rolls of it about 25mm wide, used for shielding
cases and so on.  3M make some.  I can't recall seeing anything wider than
that, the only other source is for making stained glass windows, but that
only runs to about 6mm wide.

In theory you could get wider rolls as they just cut if from a big one.

Tony

> I have done a little experimentation in the past manually cutting traces
using
> graver techniques. The copper itself cuts just fine, but getting it
separated
> cleanly from the fiberglass is more of a problem.
> 
> I would think Cricut would have a similar problem issue. Still if it
works, that
> would be great.


The cutter tips are carbide these days, and are fairly cheap (dunno about
CriCut specifically).

They'd handle soft copper easily although hitting the fibreglass underneath
would dull them.  Maybe you could combine this with the mythical EDM method;
use the EDM to burn away the unwanted (and isolated) bit between the tracks.

Tony

I don't think carbide cutters will have a problem with copper.  I use carbide tool bits in the shop to machine difficult materials so copper won't be a problem as far as cutting is concerned.  Where I do see a potential problem is with how cleanly the copper will cut.  It is so soft and ductile that you may not be able to get a clean cut without some smearing of the copper.  Also carbide cannot be sharpened as finely as a metal cutting tool, which is why when I machine soft metals like copper I use a tool steel bit which I can really sharpen to quite a fine edge.  Carbide tends to just push the copper around and smear it.  It can be done but it's fiddley.  

The other point would be that the circuit board material underneath the copper is quite abrasive.  I'm not sure how fine you can adjust the depth of cut on these machines but it would be an advantage to be able to just cut through the copper without cutting into the board to any great extent.  Carbide will resist abrasive wear much more than a steel cutter, but it too will eventually dull.

Further, I stopped in at my local craft store where they sell these cutting machines and the lady there basically said the Cricut wasn't very good and she recommended another brand, the name of which unfortunately I can't remember.  As I've not used any of these machines for any purpose I can't speak to the matter of quality.

I just wanted to throw out a couple of thoughts.

Cheers,
John

I also tried cutting some copper foil, but perhaps used the wrong blade,
the problem was that the traces wouldn't cut cleanly enough and stay stuck
to the backing paper and would pull off.

The MIT fablab page does show this method in action, but I don't see how it
could ever make very thin traces.

http://fab.cba.mit.edu/content/processes/PCB/vinylcut.html

-David


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Forgot to mention, I got my copper foil as a tape from digikey. They
also have (much more expensive) sheets.

this in particular:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?wt.z_header=search_go&lang=en&keywords=3M1125D-1FT-ND&x=0&y=0&cur=USD

6" wide, 0.003" thick, $3 per foot.

-David

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 12:49 PM, David Mitchell <gossiphog@...> wrote:
> I also tried cutting some copper foil, but perhaps used the wrong blade, the
> problem was that the traces wouldn't cut cleanly enough and stay stuck to
> the backing paper and would pull off.
>
> The MIT fablab page does show this method in action, but I don't see how it
> could ever make very thin traces.
>
> http://fab.cba.mit.edu/content/processes/PCB/vinylcut.html
>
> -David
>

> Forgot to mention, I got my copper foil as a tape from digikey. They also
have
> (much more expensive) sheets.
> 
> this in particular:
> http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?wt.z_header=search_go&l
> ang=en&keywords=3M1125D-1FT-ND&x=0&y=0&cur=USD
> 
> 6" wide, 0.003" thick, $3 per foot.


I came across this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/270409437851 on eBay.

12" squares, about the same price.

I guess it's out there if you want to experiment.

Tony

Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find the right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape? 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like this?
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Sign_Cutter_to_make_PCBs/>

Vinyl resists etchant just fine, no need fiddling with masking, electrical, or kapton tape. It is much easier to cut and weed (remove unwanted vinyl) while it is still on the backing. Then apply with application tape just as if it were going on a sign.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@...> wrote:

>
> Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find the right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape? 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

There is an "Instructable" about this in case anyone has not seen it;

http://www.instructables.com/id/Fast-and-Easy-PCB-Prototyping-with-Vinyl/

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of alienrelics
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:19 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
cutter

Like this?
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Sign_Cutter_to_make_
PCBs/>

Vinyl resists etchant just fine, no need fiddling with masking, electrical,
or kapton tape. It is much easier to cut and weed (remove unwanted vinyl)
while it is still on the backing. Then apply with application tape just as
if it were going on a sign.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@...> wrote:
>
> Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or
tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl
to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and
etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few
boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or
dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find the
right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape? 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Guess someone has already done that: at least one guy on a DIY audio group
here in Brazil used to do some simpler boards by masking with plotter cut
vinyl, the same used on sign making. The trace width was large, as well as
spacing, and the board was single sided, but for simpler projects it should
work.

[ ]'s

2012/6/15 Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@...>

> **
>
>
> Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
> cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or
> tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or
> vinyl to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or
> tape and etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have
> done a few boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the
> tape or dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find
> the right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>



-- 
====================================
Daniel Washington S. Martins
e-mail: dwsmartins@... - cel.: +55 31 9768-4368


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, which would be of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would not object to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. I have seen some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any comments on these?

Bob


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Unfortunately I can't recommend a machine based on my zero actual experience 
with the machines or the method, but I have been looking into that and I came 
across a fairly big seller of these machines in the US 
at http://www.uscutter.com/ with seemingly reasonable prices compared to other 
sellers.

I wrote them and gave the Instructable article as the reference for what I 
wanted a machine for and they gave me a recommendation for a machine in one of 
their mid line ranges. My request for a recommendation was very sensitive as to 
cost and durability. They did not recommend their least expensive brand for its 
durability.

If someone was ready to make a purchase, I feel based on the way they responded 
to my request, they might be a decent company to make a purchase with, on the 
other hand like anything manufactured these days there are lots of horror 
stories.

A lot of people seem to like the Roland machines but they are expensive, even 
when they are used.

________________________________

From: Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@...>
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, June 15, 2012 10:14:32 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter

Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. Does anyone 
have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It seems that most of the 
Cricut machines use cartridges, which would be of no use for PCB work. Any 
system that would behave as a printer should work fine as long as it is capable 
of taking an image (jpeg, png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The 
machines that say "No computer required" look like they would not be 
appropriate. Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would not 
object to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. I have seen 
some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any comments on these?

Bob


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
cutting some
> vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or tape to a
copper
> clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl to the copper
clad
> FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and etch the board. I
> have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few boards with
hand cut
> tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or dissolve the tape, it
works
> fairly well. The trick might be to find the right tape, perhaps Kapton
tape, or
> wide electrical tape?


Ordinary sign vinyl would work for the usual through hole size stuff, you'd
have trouble on really fine tracks.

That's how a lot of etching (on glass etc) is done, cut the pattern, stick
it on whatever you're etching, and then apply the etchant or sand blast it.
(The sign vinyl is quite thin, the stuff used for sand blasting tends to be
thicker.)

It'd be a bit easier than toner transfer, apart from picking out all the
unwanted bits.

Tony

That instructable assumes you know everything about using a vinyl cutter, or that you've had someone else cut, weed, and place transfer tape onto the vinyl.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Schwartz" <lhs_emf@...> wrote:

>
> There is an "Instructable" about this in case anyone has not seen it;
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Fast-and-Easy-PCB-Prototyping-with-Vinyl/
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of alienrelics
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:19 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
> cutter
> 
> Like this?
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Sign_Cutter_to_make_
> PCBs/>
> 
> Vinyl resists etchant just fine, no need fiddling with masking, electrical,
> or kapton tape. It is much easier to cut and weed (remove unwanted vinyl)
> while it is still on the backing. Then apply with application tape just as
> if it were going on a sign.
> 
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
> cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or
> tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl
> to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and
> etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few
> boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or
> dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find the
> right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape? 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>

I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.

I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any models can be printed to from any given program, or if they must be driven from their software.

Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.

As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was looking good when I stopped it.

There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, which would be of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would not object to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. I have seen some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any comments on these?
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I have a number of cricuts that I got broken from ebay for $20 or so,
shipped, and repaired myself. Some are much easier to fix than others, but
if you're handy as I suspect most on this list are, pretty much all are
repairable.

I like the vinyl etch method, but had problems with it floating off when I
was using the "metal salt" etch on aluminum.

Not to get too far off the topic of PCBs, I got around the edge leakage
issue by cutting a positive mask from vinyl (vinyl goes where you want the
metal removed), transfer to the metal, and spray-paint over it. Then peel
off the vinyl. The spray paint works as a much more effective etch resist.

The "pcb plotter" method using a ultra-fine tip industrial sharpie works
much better for PCBs IMHO since the ink makes for a pretty effective etch
resist, no weeding necessary, and there's no "offset" problem using the pen
instead of the blade. In this case, the resolution is limited mostly by the
size of the pen point, but you do get some jaggies in diagonal or curved
lines which increases the minimum space between traces in those areas.

I use the "Make the Cut" software to plot via the Cricut, but you'll need
the driver plugin to go this route, and its gotten a bit difficult since
ProvoCraft has repeatedly sued MTC to eliminate support for the Cricut
machine.

One other way to plot to the cricut from your PC is through the Licut
library at http://sourceforge.net/projects/licut/


-David


On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> > Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
> cutting some
> > vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or tape to a
> copper
> > clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl to the copper
> clad
> > FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and etch the board. I
> > have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few boards with
> hand cut
> > tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or dissolve the tape, it
> works
> > fairly well. The trick might be to find the right tape, perhaps Kapton
> tape, or
> > wide electrical tape?
>
> Ordinary sign vinyl would work for the usual through hole size stuff, you'd
> have trouble on really fine tracks.
>
> That's how a lot of etching (on glass etc) is done, cut the pattern, stick
> it on whatever you're etching, and then apply the etchant or sand blast it.
> (The sign vinyl is quite thin, the stuff used for sand blasting tends to be
> thicker.)
>
> It'd be a bit easier than toner transfer, apart from picking out all the
> unwanted bits.
>
> Tony
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you have any recommendations for a pen plotter machines?

I have seen a lot of large and some small format pen plotters on ebay, for
which I think it would be hard to find drivers, even if they are
comparatively inexpensive.

I also have an old Epson 3000 stylus which is a medium size flatbed inkspray
printer which might work for a direct resist print method, but not sure it
would accommodate a pcb thickness.

We are sort of coming back around to the plotter / laser method where a
small size solid state laser is placed into the pen holder and the software
starts and stops the laser and moves it through the production of a pcb.

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David Mitchell
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:06 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
cutter

I have a number of cricuts that I got broken from ebay for $20 or so,
shipped, and repaired myself. Some are much easier to fix than others, but
if you're handy as I suspect most on this list are, pretty much all are
repairable.

I like the vinyl etch method, but had problems with it floating off when I
was using the "metal salt" etch on aluminum.

Not to get too far off the topic of PCBs, I got around the edge leakage
issue by cutting a positive mask from vinyl (vinyl goes where you want the
metal removed), transfer to the metal, and spray-paint over it. Then peel
off the vinyl. The spray paint works as a much more effective etch resist.

The "pcb plotter" method using a ultra-fine tip industrial sharpie works
much better for PCBs IMHO since the ink makes for a pretty effective etch
resist, no weeding necessary, and there's no "offset" problem using the pen
instead of the blade. In this case, the resolution is limited mostly by the
size of the pen point, but you do get some jaggies in diagonal or curved
lines which increases the minimum space between traces in those areas.

I use the "Make the Cut" software to plot via the Cricut, but you'll need
the driver plugin to go this route, and its gotten a bit difficult since
ProvoCraft has repeatedly sued MTC to eliminate support for the Cricut
machine.

One other way to plot to the cricut from your PC is through the Licut
library at http://sourceforge.net/projects/licut/


-David


On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> > Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
> cutting some
> > vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or tape to 
> > a
> copper
> > clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl to the 
> > copper
> clad
> > FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and etch the 
> > board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have done a few 
> > boards with
> hand cut
> > tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or dissolve the 
> > tape, it
> works
> > fairly well. The trick might be to find the right tape, perhaps 
> > Kapton
> tape, or
> > wide electrical tape?
>
> Ordinary sign vinyl would work for the usual through hole size stuff, 
> you'd have trouble on really fine tracks.
>
> That's how a lot of etching (on glass etc) is done, cut the pattern, 
> stick it on whatever you're etching, and then apply the etchant or sand
blast it.
> (The sign vinyl is quite thin, the stuff used for sand blasting tends 
> to be
> thicker.)
>
> It'd be a bit easier than toner transfer, apart from picking out all 
> the unwanted bits.
>
> Tony
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlienRelics
> Sent: 15 June 2012 17:30
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> a CNC paper cutter
> 
> 
> I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.
> 
> I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any 
> models can be printed to from any given program, or if they 
> must be driven from their software.
> 

I thought the CriCuts only worked from a cartridge. Do some have a computer
connection...

> Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve 
> following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never 
> owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.
> 
> As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to 
> print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter 
> at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was 
> looking good when I stopped it.
> 
> There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about 
> quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in 
> Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them. 
> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/
> 
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher 
> <bbutcher85@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. 
> > Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It 
> > seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, 
> which would be 
> > of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer 
> > should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, 
> > png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that 
> > say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. 
> > Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would 
> not object 
> > to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. 
> I have seen 
> > some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any 
> comments on 
> > these?
> > 
> > Bob

There are quite a few videos on YouTube on using the older pen plotters with
a cutting blade to cut vynal. In the UK these plotters come up from time to
time on E-bay. A recent one went for around $110. I have all the bits but
just havn't got round to trying it...


> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leslie Schwartz
> Sent: 15 June 2012 18:33
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> a CNC paper cutter
> 
> 
> Do you have any recommendations for a pen plotter machines?
> 
> I have seen a lot of large and some small format pen plotters 
> on ebay, for which I think it would be hard to find drivers, 
> even if they are comparatively inexpensive.

For Windows/XP there are Roland drivers that work with most of these
including the common HP7475A and the Hitachi Pen Plotters which are
extremely cheap. I don't know of any Windows/7 drivers but several progams
will output the neceassry HPGL without standalone. There is also a
commercial HPGL driver but as it costs about twice the typical cost of a
printer

> 
> I also have an old Epson 3000 stylus which is a medium size 
> flatbed inkspray printer which might work for a direct resist 
> print method, but not sure it would accommodate a pcb thickness.
> 
> We are sort of coming back around to the plotter / laser 
> method where a small size solid state laser is placed into 
> the pen holder and the software starts and stops the laser 
> and moves it through the production of a pcb.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of David Mitchell
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:06 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs 
> with a CNC paper cutter
> 
> I have a number of cricuts that I got broken from ebay for 
> $20 or so, shipped, and repaired myself. Some are much easier 
> to fix than others, but if you're handy as I suspect most on 
> this list are, pretty much all are repairable.
> 
> I like the vinyl etch method, but had problems with it 
> floating off when I was using the "metal salt" etch on aluminum.
> 
> Not to get too far off the topic of PCBs, I got around the 
> edge leakage issue by cutting a positive mask from vinyl 
> (vinyl goes where you want the metal removed), transfer to 
> the metal, and spray-paint over it. Then peel off the vinyl. 
> The spray paint works as a much more effective etch resist.
> 
> The "pcb plotter" method using a ultra-fine tip industrial 
> sharpie works much better for PCBs IMHO since the ink makes 
> for a pretty effective etch resist, no weeding necessary, and 
> there's no "offset" problem using the pen instead of the 
> blade. In this case, the resolution is limited mostly by the 
> size of the pen point, but you do get some jaggies in 
> diagonal or curved lines which increases the minimum space 
> between traces in those areas.
> 
> I use the "Make the Cut" software to plot via the Cricut, but 
> you'll need the driver plugin to go this route, and its 
> gotten a bit difficult since ProvoCraft has repeatedly sued 
> MTC to eliminate support for the Cricut machine.
> 
> One other way to plot to the cricut from your PC is through 
> the Licut library at http://sourceforge.net/projects/licut/
> 
> 
> -David
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Tony Smith 
> <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > > Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper 
> directly, how about
> > cutting some
> > > vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl 
> or tape to
> > > a
> > copper
> > > clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the tape or vinyl to the
> > > copper
> > clad
> > > FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and etch the
> > > board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have 
> done a few 
> > > boards with
> > hand cut
> > > tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or dissolve the
> > > tape, it
> > works
> > > fairly well. The trick might be to find the right tape, perhaps
> > > Kapton
> > tape, or
> > > wide electrical tape?
> >
> > Ordinary sign vinyl would work for the usual through hole 
> size stuff,
> > you'd have trouble on really fine tracks.
> >
> > That's how a lot of etching (on glass etc) is done, cut the pattern,
> > stick it on whatever you're etching, and then apply the 
> etchant or sand
> blast it.
> > (The sign vinyl is quite thin, the stuff used for sand 
> blasting tends
> > to be
> > thicker.)
> >
> > It'd be a bit easier than toner transfer, apart from picking out all
> > the unwanted bits.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

Does anyone have any specs on these vinyl cutter? Can they do 10 mil 
lines repeatedly and reliability?



At 12:23 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:

>That instructable assumes you know everything about using a vinyl 
>cutter, or that you've had someone else cut, weed, and place 
>transfer tape onto the vinyl.
>
>Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Schwartz" <lhs_emf@...> wrote:
> >
> > There is an "Instructable" about this in case anyone has not seen it;
> >
> > http://www.instructables.com/id/Fast-and-Easy-PCB-Prototyping-with-Vinyl/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of alienrelics
> > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:19 AM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
> > cutter
> >
> > Like this?
> > 
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Sign_Cutter_to_make_> 
> PCBs/>
> >
> > Vinyl resists etchant just fine, no need fiddling with masking, electrical,
> > or kapton tape. It is much easier to cut and weed (remove unwanted vinyl)
> > while it is still on the backing. Then apply with application tape just as
> > if it were going on a sign.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
> > cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or
> > tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the 
> tape or vinyl
> > to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape and
> > etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have 
> done a few
> > boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or
> > dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find the
> > right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape?
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

> Does anyone have any specs on these vinyl cutter? Can they do 10 mil lines
> repeatedly and reliability?


Assuming 10 mil = 10 thou, that's about 0.25mm, so not very wide.

They'll do it (resolution of a thou is common), but the limit is the vinyl
itself.  With long thin stuff like traces the probability of stuff lifting
or moving around is pretty high.

Using the plotter to cut the copper itself like the OP is doing is a
different story.  The CriCut won't have the accuracy of a Roland, but you'd
expect that.

Tony

Some product literature has specs, I found them difficult to compare machine
to machine, there did not seem to be a universal standard for repeatability
and resolution. But, this is one reason why US Cutter did not recommend its
least expensive line.

Again, this is some info you can get from US Cutter on the individual
machines, if you want to deal with them, and of course helpful if we can get
information here.

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:57 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
cutter


Does anyone have any specs on these vinyl cutter? Can they do 10 mil lines
repeatedly and reliability?



At 12:23 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:
>That instructable assumes you know everything about using a vinyl 
>cutter, or that you've had someone else cut, weed, and place 
>transfer tape onto the vinyl.
>
>Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Schwartz" <lhs_emf@...>
wrote:
> >
> > There is an "Instructable" about this in case anyone has not seen it;
> >
> >
http://www.instructables.com/id/Fast-and-Easy-PCB-Prototyping-with-Vinyl/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of alienrelics
> > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:19 AM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
> > cutter
> >
> > Like this?
> > 
>
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Sign_Cutter_to_make_
> 
> PCBs/>
> >
> > Vinyl resists etchant just fine, no need fiddling with masking,
electrical,
> > or kapton tape. It is much easier to cut and weed (remove unwanted
vinyl)
> > while it is still on the backing. Then apply with application tape just
as
> > if it were going on a sign.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Interesting topic. Instead of cutting the copper directly, how about
> > cutting some vinyl or maybe masking tape? Then transfer the cut vinyl or
> > tape to a copper clad FR4 board. Or maybe better yet, bond the 
> tape or vinyl
> > to the copper clad FR4 and then cut. Remove the unwanted vinyl or tape
and
> > etch the board. I have not tried this technique exactly, but have 
> done a few
> > boards with hand cut tape. If the etchant doesn't leak under the tape or
> > dissolve the tape, it works fairly well. The trick might be to find the
> > right tape, perhaps Kapton tape, or wide electrical tape?
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Schwartz" <lhs_emf@...> wrote:
>
> Do you have any recommendations for a pen plotter machines?
> 
> I have seen a lot of large and some small format pen plotters on ebay, for
> which I think it would be hard to find drivers, even if they are
> comparatively inexpensive.

I think someone else mentioned that HP HPGL/GPGL drivers are still within Windows. Make sure it is actually a serial or parallel interface. Many HP plotters use a DB-25 which looks like it might be a serial connection, but it is a different interface who's name escapes me at the moment.

> I also have an old Epson 3000 stylus which is a medium size flatbed inkspray
> printer which might work for a direct resist print method, but not sure it
> would accommodate a pcb thickness.

Good question. When I did some tests with an Epson 5000 and 3000, I was using some 1/32 inch PCB. I've since then gotten a couple of R200 which I know will take 1/16th inch in the CD tray without modification. And an Epson 4800 that needs some work that I am pretty sure will take 1/16th, too.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Mitchell <gossiphog@...> wrote:
>
> I have a number of cricuts that I got broken from ebay for $20 or so,
> shipped, and repaired myself. Some are much easier to fix than others, but
> if you're handy as I suspect most on this list are, pretty much all are
> repairable.
> 
> I like the vinyl etch method, but had problems with it floating off when I
> was using the "metal salt" etch on aluminum.

The few I made with vinyl, I didn't have any problems with ferric chloride.

> Not to get too far off the topic of PCBs, I got around the edge leakage
> issue by cutting a positive mask from vinyl (vinyl goes where you want the
> metal removed), transfer to the metal, and spray-paint over it. Then peel
> off the vinyl. The spray paint works as a much more effective etch resist.
> 

Look in Links, Files, and Photos for Scratch-n-Etch. Dykem metal marking fluid works much better than paint, in that it scratches off more easily and cleanly. And works quite well as a resist. Just modify a pen for your plotter with a carbide or diamond tipped metal marking pen tip, and maybe add some lead shot to increase the pressure. No offset compensation needed.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Schwartz" <lhs_emf@> wrote:
> >
> > Do you have any recommendations for a pen plotter machines?
> > 
> > I have seen a lot of large and some small format pen plotters on ebay, for
> > which I think it would be hard to find drivers, even if they are
> > comparatively inexpensive.
> 
> I think someone else mentioned that HP HPGL/GPGL drivers are still within Windows. Make sure it is actually a serial or parallel interface. Many HP plotters use a DB-25 which looks like it might be a serial connection, but it is a different interface who's name escapes me at the moment.

Are you thinking of SCSI? Sometimes that uses a DB-25 connector.

tda7000 wrote:

 > Are you thinking of SCSI? Sometimes that uses a DB-25 connector.

No, that would be:
HP-IB   HP Interface Buss
Or
IEEE-488

Duane

-- 
     Home of the $35 Solar Tracker      Receiver
    http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm      [*]
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(651)426-4766        use Courier New Font \  |
redrok@...     (my email: address)  \ |
http://www.redrok.com  (Web site)          ===

Yes, Duane is correct. I was thinking of HP-IB. The interfaces are insanely expensive, last I checked, in the range of hundreds even used.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@...> wrote:

>
> tda7000 wrote:
> 
>  > Are you thinking of SCSI? Sometimes that uses a DB-25 connector.
> 
> No, that would be:
> HP-IB   HP Interface Buss
> Or
> IEEE-488
> 
> Duane
>

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:08:06 -0500, you wrote:

>tda7000 wrote:
>
> > Are you thinking of SCSI? Sometimes that uses a DB-25 connector.

The Roland 880 uses a 25 pin connector which is serial.  The IBM PC
parallel connector is the same connector style, but with pins rather
than sockets (IIRC).  

The HPIB bus uses a 24 pin version of the old centronics 36 pin
(amphenol blue ribbon style) connector.  It has wiping contacts rather
than pins and sockets.

The HPIB bus (later IEEE-488) is an 8 bit parallel bus with
handshaking used to control instruments and peripherals, typically
high end instrumentation.  Needless to say, HP used it a lot.
Tektronix and Fluke use it.  

The SCSI connector *may* be a standard DBM25 connector in some
versions (SCSI-1?), but is more typically a narrow "mini ribbon"
version of the Centronics connector.  There's a 50 pin dual readout
(like DBM25) version of SCSI as well.  All this is an IIRC, since I
don't use SCSI all that much.

Harvey

>
>No, that would be:
>HP-IB   HP Interface Buss
>Or
>IEEE-488
>
>Duane

> I think someone else mentioned that HP HPGL/GPGL drivers are still within Windows. Make sure it is actually a serial or parallel interface. Many HP plotters use a DB-25 which looks like it might be a serial connection, but it is a different interface who's name escapes >me at the moment.

Perhaps you are thinking of Centronics

I have been dabbling in homebrew printed circuit boards as long as I can remember. When I got my HP7475(?), I thought I had it. I drew the line at being able to do dip parts and no photo enlargement. That left the plotter out, the direct print would not work for me.

A retirement business (Successful enough to sell) left me with a 24 in Roland Vinyl cutter. I still do a little sign making, but I have to tell you that after a while it is about as exciting as cutting the grass! The smallest lettering I will try is 3/8 inch. The vinyl likes to bunch up around the cutter. Usually that is for motoercycle helments.

The Roland uses the same pen holder as the plotter did. It does a really good job plotting although changing pens would be a manual task.

I am sure you could print 2X, scan it, reduce it, and toner print it successfully. That is on my list of things to do!

The Roland is typical in that it does have some built in Fonts and can be attached to the computer with either a printer (Centronics) interface or a serial(RS232) interface. AFIK, all such hardware supports the HPGL standard that allows the computer to send All-Points-Addressable data as well as lines, circles, etc. I have a commercial sign program, CorelDraw, and a Cad program that cut/plot very well.

However, the HP Laser printer with the available free software exceed my needs at a lower cost and less effort.
 de W8CCW...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...> wrote:

>
> > I think someone else mentioned that HP HPGL/GPGL drivers are still within Windows. Make sure it is actually a serial or parallel interface. Many HP plotters use a DB-25 which looks like it might be a serial connection, but it is a different interface who's name escapes >me at the moment.
> 
> Perhaps you are thinking of Centronics
>

Interesting, what was your retirement business?

 

Jeff

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of John
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:50 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
cutter

I have been dabbling in homebrew printed circuit boards as long as I can
remember. When I got my HP7475(?), I thought I had it. I drew the line at
being able to do dip parts and no photo enlargement. That left the plotter
out, the direct print would not work for me.

A retirement business (Successful enough to sell) left me with a 24 in
Roland Vinyl cutter. I still do a little sign making, but I have to tell you
that after a while it is about as exciting as cutting the grass! The
smallest lettering I will try is 3/8 inch. The vinyl likes to bunch up
around the cutter. Usually that is for motoercycle helments.

The Roland uses the same pen holder as the plotter did. It does a really
good job plotting although changing pens would be a manual task.

I am sure you could print 2X, scan it, reduce it, and toner print it
successfully. That is on my list of things to do!

The Roland is typical in that it does have some built in Fonts and can be
attached to the computer with either a printer (Centronics) interface or a
serial(RS232) interface. AFIK, all such hardware supports the HPGL standard
that allows the computer to send All-Points-Addressable data as well as
lines, circles, etc. I have a commercial sign program, CorelDraw, and a Cad
program that cut/plot very well.

However, the HP Laser printer with the available free software exceed my
needs at a lower cost and less effort.
de W8CCW...



.

 
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4505361/grpspId=1705083291/msgId
=30235/stime=1339887002/nc1=3848641/nc2=5741398/nc3=4507179> 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jferrell13@...> wrote:
>
> I have been dabbling in homebrew printed circuit boards as long as I can remember. When I got my HP7475(?), I thought I had it. I drew the line at being able to do dip parts and no photo enlargement. That left the plotter out, the direct print would not work for me.
> 
> A retirement business (Successful enough to sell) left me with a 24 in Roland Vinyl cutter. I still do a little sign making, but I have to tell you that after a while it is about as exciting as cutting the grass! The smallest lettering I will try is 3/8 inch. The vinyl likes to bunch up around the cutter. Usually that is for motoercycle helments.
> 

Perhaps the blade is getting dull.

> I am sure you could print 2X, scan it, reduce it, and toner print it successfully. That is on my list of things to do!
> 

I used to make boards using photo sensitive spray by making the patterns at 2x size and reducing on a copy machine and copying onto mylar film.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

The product was Precision Aerobatics Radio Control Model Airplanes & kits. It is a National & International Competition for Models conforming to an International rule set basicly says the airplane has to fit in a 2 meter square box and weigh less than 11 pounds. The flights are judged by panels of judges and scored according to formula. In 1999 the World Championships were held in Pensecola Florida, the US Team won the team class and two of the three airplanes on the team were my products. 

To set the record straight, I attribute the winning to the folks I managed to get together. Great Craftsmen to build affordable parts, greater craftsmen to assemble and tune air frames and power setups and the dedicated pilots, trainers and their families who spent incredible hours practicing.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:

>
> Interesting, what was your retirement business?
> 
>  
> 
> Jeff
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of John
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:50 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
> cutter
> 
> I have been dabbling in homebrew printed circuit boards as long as I can
> remember. When I got my HP7475(?), I thought I had it. I drew the line at
> being able to do dip parts and no photo enlargement. That left the plotter
> out, the direct print would not work for me.
> 
> A retirement business (Successful enough to sell) left me with a 24 in
> Roland Vinyl cutter. I still do a little sign making, but I have to tell you
> that after a while it is about as exciting as cutting the grass! The
> smallest lettering I will try is 3/8 inch. The vinyl likes to bunch up
> around the cutter. Usually that is for motoercycle helments.
> 
> The Roland uses the same pen holder as the plotter did. It does a really
> good job plotting although changing pens would be a manual task.
> 
> I am sure you could print 2X, scan it, reduce it, and toner print it
> successfully. That is on my list of things to do!
> 
> The Roland is typical in that it does have some built in Fonts and can be
> attached to the computer with either a printer (Centronics) interface or a
> serial(RS232) interface. AFIK, all such hardware supports the HPGL standard
> that allows the computer to send All-Points-Addressable data as well as
> lines, circles, etc. I have a commercial sign program, CorelDraw, and a Cad
> program that cut/plot very well.
> 
> However, the HP Laser printer with the available free software exceed my
> needs at a lower cost and less effort.
> de W8CCW...
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
>  
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4505361/grpspId=1705083291/msgId
> =30235/stime=1339887002/nc1=3848641/nc2=5741398/nc3=4507179> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Okay, I own a Cricut Create Machine I bought brand new a couple years ago and do not remember the exact price.
I suspect it was in the $200+ range.

Anyway, although it does have a cartridge slot and does have a cartridge plugged into said slot, it also has a USB cable which allows for an XP operating system computer control through the use of two (that I know of) programs.

Inkscape and Sure Cuts a lot2 are (were) available free I beleive do a fine job of controlling the machine, but I seem to recall approaching and exceeding the fineness of 10 mil cuts is a challange which didn't work well when I tried.

I'm certain it's possible to directly cut copper-clad boards especially with the deep cut blade, part #29-0630. These blades require a different holder which I've recently ordered after getting exicted about reading this method. These are hardend steel.


I think if the circuit design is modified enough like the pictures posted on the site inspiring me, it may be potentially possible.

It's just the whole concept of avoiding printing/laminating/echting/masking/etc that turns me on.

I'll keep this posted on the results for sure.




________________________________

 From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter
 

  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlienRelics
> Sent: 15 June 2012 17:30
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> a CNC paper cutter
> 
> 
> I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.
> 
> I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any 
> models can be printed to from any given program, or if they 
> must be driven from their software.
> 

I thought the CriCuts only worked from a cartridge. Do some have a computer
connection...

> Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve 
> following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never 
> owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.
> 
> As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to 
> print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter 
> at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was 
> looking good when I stopped it.
> 
> There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about 
> quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in 
> Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them. 
> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/
> 
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher 
> <bbutcher85@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. 
> > Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It 
> > seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, 
> which would be 
> > of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer 
> > should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, 
> > png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that 
> > say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. 
> > Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would 
> not object 
> > to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. 
> I have seen 
> > some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any 
> comments on 
> > these?
> > 
> > Bob

There are quite a few videos on YouTube on using the older pen plotters with
a cutting blade to cut vynal. In the UK these plotters come up from time to
time on E-bay. A recent one went for around $110. I have all the bits but
just havn't got round to trying it...

> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks all for the posts - I'm hoping the sum of knowledge enables more of us to take advantage of this quick, clean, easy and relatively low-cost method. 

From my information, SureCutsALot2, which takes advantage of Cricut's USB port, was not free (~$72)and is no longer available other than maybe Ebay, etc. Also SCAL2 did not have cutter compensation (explained here
 
http://www.a2mc-cnc.com/downloads/docs/files/devices/knives/Drag%20Knives.pdf). 

Compensation IS REQUIRED for small-trace PCB work. I'm not sure about SureCutsALot3 but I have been told it does have compensation. SCAL3 DOES NOT support Cricut machines as they still are basically cartridge-based. Minimum trace width is still open for discussion as I'm not sure what causes the non-Boston geometry (0,45,90 deg) in some of my cuts.

About blades - be sure to use carbide blades only as the FR4 PCB material will wear down a steel blade rapidly. 

I itemize the parts I use (so far) on my website here http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/

Good luck.

Mike

PS Yesterday I got CNC PCB drilling to work better. It fits in the cutter and uses the Dremel accessory tool I have listed on my website. Some small modifications are required. More later.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dale Evans <sk19502001@...> wrote:

>
> Okay, I own a Cricut Create Machine I bought brand new a couple years ago and do not remember the exact price.
> I suspect it was in the $200+ range.
> 
> Anyway, although it does have a cartridge slot and does have a cartridge plugged into said slot, it also has a USB cable which allows for an XP operating system computer control through the use of two (that I know of) programs.
> 
> Inkscape and Sure Cuts a lot2 are (were) available free I beleive do a fine job of controlling the machine, but I seem to recall approaching and exceeding the fineness of 10 mil cuts is a challange which didn't work well when I tried.
> 
> I'm certain it's possible to directly cut copper-clad boards especially with the deep cut blade, part #29-0630. These blades require a different holder which I've recently ordered after getting exicted about reading this method. These are hardend steel.
> 
> 
> I think if the circuit design is modified enough like the pictures posted on the site inspiring me, it may be potentially possible.
> 
> It's just the whole concept of avoiding printing/laminating/echting/masking/etc that turns me on.
> 
> I'll keep this posted on the results for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:31 AM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter
>  
> 
> Â  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlienRelics
> > Sent: 15 June 2012 17:30
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> > a CNC paper cutter
> > 
> > 
> > I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.
> > 
> > I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any 
> > models can be printed to from any given program, or if they 
> > must be driven from their software.
> > 
> 
> I thought the CriCuts only worked from a cartridge. Do some have a computer
> connection...
> 
> > Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve 
> > following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never 
> > owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.
> > 
> > As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to 
> > print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter 
> > at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was 
> > looking good when I stopped it.
> > 
> > There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about 
> > quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in 
> > Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them. 
> > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/
> > 
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher 
> > <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. 
> > > Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It 
> > > seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, 
> > which would be 
> > > of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer 
> > > should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, 
> > > png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that 
> > > say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. 
> > > Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would 
> > not object 
> > > to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. 
> > I have seen 
> > > some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any 
> > comments on 
> > > these?
> > > 
> > > Bob
> 
> There are quite a few videos on YouTube on using the older pen plotters with
> a cutting blade to cut vynal. In the UK these plotters come up from time to
> time on E-bay. A recent one went for around $110. I have all the bits but
> just havn't got round to trying it...
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> 
> Dave Wade G4UGM
> Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> 
> 
>  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Maybe I missed something in all the previous emails, but if you can attach your Dremel to the machine to allow CNC drilling of the board, why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the blade?


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks all for the posts - I'm hoping the sum of knowledge enables more of us to take advantage of this quick, clean, easy and relatively low-cost method. 
> 
> From my information, SureCutsALot2, which takes advantage of Cricut's USB port, was not free (~$72)and is no longer available other than maybe Ebay, etc. Also SCAL2 did not have cutter compensation (explained here
>  
> http://www.a2mc-cnc.com/downloads/docs/files/devices/knives/Drag%20Knives.pdf). 
> 
> Compensation IS REQUIRED for small-trace PCB work. I'm not sure about SureCutsALot3 but I have been told it does have compensation. SCAL3 DOES NOT support Cricut machines as they still are basically cartridge-based. Minimum trace width is still open for discussion as I'm not sure what causes the non-Boston geometry (0,45,90 deg) in some of my cuts.
> 
> About blades - be sure to use carbide blades only as the FR4 PCB material will wear down a steel blade rapidly. 
> 
> I itemize the parts I use (so far) on my website here http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Mike
> 
> PS Yesterday I got CNC PCB drilling to work better. It fits in the cutter and uses the Dremel accessory tool I have listed on my website. Some small modifications are required. More later.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dale Evans <sk19502001@> wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I own a Cricut Create Machine I bought brand new a couple years ago and do not remember the exact price.
> > I suspect it was in the $200+ range.
> > 
> > Anyway, although it does have a cartridge slot and does have a cartridge plugged into said slot, it also has a USB cable which allows for an XP operating system computer control through the use of two (that I know of) programs.
> > 
> > Inkscape and Sure Cuts a lot2 are (were) available free I beleive do a fine job of controlling the machine, but I seem to recall approaching and exceeding the fineness of 10 mil cuts is a challange which didn't work well when I tried.
> > 
> > I'm certain it's possible to directly cut copper-clad boards especially with the deep cut blade, part #29-0630. These blades require a different holder which I've recently ordered after getting exicted about reading this method. These are hardend steel.
> > 
> > 
> > I think if the circuit design is modified enough like the pictures posted on the site inspiring me, it may be potentially possible.
> > 
> > It's just the whole concept of avoiding printing/laminating/echting/masking/etc that turns me on.
> > 
> > I'll keep this posted on the results for sure.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:31 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter
> >  
> > 
> > Â  
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlienRelics
> > > Sent: 15 June 2012 17:30
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> > > a CNC paper cutter
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.
> > > 
> > > I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any 
> > > models can be printed to from any given program, or if they 
> > > must be driven from their software.
> > > 
> > 
> > I thought the CriCuts only worked from a cartridge. Do some have a computer
> > connection...
> > 
> > > Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve 
> > > following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never 
> > > owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.
> > > 
> > > As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to 
> > > print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter 
> > > at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was 
> > > looking good when I stopped it.
> > > 
> > > There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about 
> > > quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in 
> > > Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them. 
> > > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/
> > > 
> > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher 
> > > <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. 
> > > > Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It 
> > > > seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, 
> > > which would be 
> > > > of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer 
> > > > should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, 
> > > > png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that 
> > > > say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. 
> > > > Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would 
> > > not object 
> > > > to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. 
> > > I have seen 
> > > > some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any 
> > > comments on 
> > > > these?
> > > > 
> > > > Bob
> > 
> > There are quite a few videos on YouTube on using the older pen plotters with
> > a cutting blade to cut vynal. In the UK these plotters come up from time to
> > time on E-bay. A recent one went for around $110. I have all the bits but
> > just havn't got round to trying it...
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > 
> > 
> > Dave Wade G4UGM
> > Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

i get the little light bulb picture above my head!!!!!!!!!! lol

 why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the
blade?Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:48 PM, tda7000 <Tda7000@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

worked well enough when I tried it with a micro engraver (harbor freight 98227) and a cordless dremel (model 7300 from wally world) on FR1 machinable board blanks (www.inventables.com/technologies/circuit-board-blanks)

--
Riley





From: jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 6:56 PM
      
      i get the little light bulb picture above my head!!!!!!!!!! lol

why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the blade?

Good question.  I wish I could do this (and I've tried). The feed rate is not adjustable (low) enough - it's too fast and breaks normal carbide milling bits. Unless I can convince the software folks from Silhouette or SureCutsALot3 to enable a much lower feed rate, I'm stuck with just dragging the blade to do the isolation.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:

>
> Maybe I missed something in all the previous emails, but if you can attach your Dremel to the machine to allow CNC drilling of the board, why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the blade?
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks all for the posts - I'm hoping the sum of knowledge enables more of us to take advantage of this quick, clean, easy and relatively low-cost method. 
> > 
> > From my information, SureCutsALot2, which takes advantage of Cricut's USB port, was not free (~$72)and is no longer available other than maybe Ebay, etc. Also SCAL2 did not have cutter compensation (explained here
> >  
> > http://www.a2mc-cnc.com/downloads/docs/files/devices/knives/Drag%20Knives.pdf). 
> > 
> > Compensation IS REQUIRED for small-trace PCB work. I'm not sure about SureCutsALot3 but I have been told it does have compensation. SCAL3 DOES NOT support Cricut machines as they still are basically cartridge-based. Minimum trace width is still open for discussion as I'm not sure what causes the non-Boston geometry (0,45,90 deg) in some of my cuts.
> > 
> > About blades - be sure to use carbide blades only as the FR4 PCB material will wear down a steel blade rapidly. 
> > 
> > I itemize the parts I use (so far) on my website here http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> > 
> > Good luck.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > PS Yesterday I got CNC PCB drilling to work better. It fits in the cutter and uses the Dremel accessory tool I have listed on my website. Some small modifications are required. More later.
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dale Evans <sk19502001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Okay, I own a Cricut Create Machine I bought brand new a couple years ago and do not remember the exact price.
> > > I suspect it was in the $200+ range.
> > > 
> > > Anyway, although it does have a cartridge slot and does have a cartridge plugged into said slot, it also has a USB cable which allows for an XP operating system computer control through the use of two (that I know of) programs.
> > > 
> > > Inkscape and Sure Cuts a lot2 are (were) available free I beleive do a fine job of controlling the machine, but I seem to recall approaching and exceeding the fineness of 10 mil cuts is a challange which didn't work well when I tried.
> > > 
> > > I'm certain it's possible to directly cut copper-clad boards especially with the deep cut blade, part #29-0630. These blades require a different holder which I've recently ordered after getting exicted about reading this method. These are hardend steel.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I think if the circuit design is modified enough like the pictures posted on the site inspiring me, it may be potentially possible.
> > > 
> > > It's just the whole concept of avoiding printing/laminating/echting/masking/etc that turns me on.
> > > 
> > > I'll keep this posted on the results for sure.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > >  From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@>
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:31 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlienRelics
> > > > Sent: 15 June 2012 17:30
> > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> > > > a CNC paper cutter
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.
> > > > 
> > > > I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any 
> > > > models can be printed to from any given program, or if they 
> > > > must be driven from their software.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I thought the CriCuts only worked from a cartridge. Do some have a computer
> > > connection...
> > > 
> > > > Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve 
> > > > following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never 
> > > > owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.
> > > > 
> > > > As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to 
> > > > print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter 
> > > > at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was 
> > > > looking good when I stopped it.
> > > > 
> > > > There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about 
> > > > quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in 
> > > > Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them. 
> > > > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/
> > > > 
> > > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher 
> > > > <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply. As I suspected vinyl works as a etchant mask. 
> > > > > Does anyone have recommendations on an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It 
> > > > > seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges, 
> > > > which would be 
> > > > > of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer 
> > > > > should work fine as long as it is capable of taking an image (jpeg, 
> > > > > png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it accurately. The machines that 
> > > > > say "No computer required" look like they would not be appropriate. 
> > > > > Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would 
> > > > not object 
> > > > > to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive. 
> > > > I have seen 
> > > > > some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any 
> > > > comments on 
> > > > > these?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Bob
> > > 
> > > There are quite a few videos on YouTube on using the older pen plotters with
> > > a cutting blade to cut vynal. In the UK these plotters come up from time to
> > > time on E-bay. A recent one went for around $110. I have all the bits but
> > > just havn't got round to trying it...
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Dave Wade G4UGM
> > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Since the Silhoutte uses steppers, perhaps some 
of the free cnc programs could be used.


At 12:40 PM 6/21/2012, you wrote:

>Good question.  I wish I could do this (and I've 
>tried). The feed rate is not adjustable (low) 
>enough - it's too fast and breaks normal carbide 
>milling bits. Unless I can convince the software 
>folks from Silhouette or SureCutsALot3 to enable 
>a much lower feed rate, I'm stuck with just 
>dragging the blade to do the isolation.
>
>Mike
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I missed something in all the previous 
> emails, but if you can attach your Dremel to 
> the machine to allow CNC drilling of the board, 
> why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the blade?
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks all for the posts - I'm hoping the 
> sum of knowledge enables more of us to take 
> advantage of this quick, clean, easy and relatively low-cost method.
> > >
> > > From my information, SureCutsALot2, which 
> takes advantage of Cricut's USB port, was not 
> free (~$72)and is no longer available other 
> than maybe Ebay, etc. Also SCAL2 did not have 
> cutter compensation (explained here
> > >
> > > 
> http://www.a2mc-cnc.com/downloads/docs/files/devices/knives/Drag%20Knives.pdf). 
>
> > >
> > > Compensation IS REQUIRED for small-trace 
> PCB work. I'm not sure about SureCutsALot3 but 
> I have been told it does have compensation. 
> SCAL3 DOES NOT support Cricut machines as they 
> still are basically cartridge-based. Minimum 
> trace width is still open for discussion as I'm 
> not sure what causes the non-Boston geometry (0,45,90 deg) in some of my cuts.
> > >
> > > About blades - be sure to use carbide 
> blades only as the FR4 PCB material will wear down a steel blade rapidly.
> > >
> > > I itemize the parts I use (so far) on my 
> website here http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> > >
> > > Good luck.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > PS Yesterday I got CNC PCB drilling to work 
> better. It fits in the cutter and uses the 
> Dremel accessory tool I have listed on my 
> website. Some small modifications are required. More later.
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dale Evans <sk19502001@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I own a Cricut Create Machine I 
> bought brand new a couple years ago and do not remember the exact price.
> > > > I suspect it was in the $200+ range.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, although it does have a cartridge 
> slot and does have a cartridge plugged into 
> said slot, it also has a USB cable which allows 
> for an XP operating system computer control 
> through the use of two (that I know of) programs.
> > > >
> > > > Inkscape and Sure Cuts a lot2 are (were) 
> available free I beleive do a fine job of 
> controlling the machine, but I seem to recall 
> approaching and exceeding the fineness of 10 
> mil cuts is a challange which didn't work well when I tried.
> > > >
> > > > I'm certain it's possible to directly cut 
> copper-clad boards especially with the deep cut 
> blade, part #29-0630. These blades require a 
> different holder which I've recently ordered 
> after getting exicted about reading this method. These are hardend steel.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think if the circuit design is modified 
> enough like the pictures posted on the site 
> inspiring me, it may be potentially possible.
> > > >
> > > > It's just the whole concept of avoiding 
> printing/laminating/echting/masking/etc that turns me on.
> > > >
> > > > I'll keep this posted on the results for sure.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >  From: Dave <dave.g4ugm@>
> > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:31 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce 
> Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC  paper cutter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlienRelics
> > > > > Sent: 15 June 2012 17:30
> > > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with
> > > > > a CNC paper cutter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm using a very old used Graphtec I bought at a thrift store.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been looking for info on the CriCuts to see if any
> > > > > models can be printed to from any given program, or if they
> > > > > must be driven from their software.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I thought the CriCuts only worked from a 
> cartridge. Do some have a computer
> > > > connection...
> > > >
> > > > > Some of the cheaper models have complaints about poor curve
> > > > > following and bad quality at small cut sizes. I've never
> > > > > owned a Roland but they seem to have a good reputation.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for my Graphtec, I once accidentally sent a Word doc to
> > > > > print - it dutifully began cutting out each and every letter
> > > > > at 12 point size. It would have been fun to weed, but it was
> > > > > looking good when I stopped it.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are quite a few sign forums where you can ask about
> > > > > quality of various vinyl cutters. If you go to the Links in
> > > > > Signmaker, I've put up links to many of them.
> > > > > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Butcher
> > > > > <bbutcher85@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the reply. As I suspected 
> vinyl works as a etchant mask.
> > > > > > Does anyone have recommendations on 
> an inexpensive vinyl cutter? It
> > > > > > seems that most of the Cricut machines use cartridges,
> > > > > which would be
> > > > > > of no use for PCB work. Any system that would behave as a printer
> > > > > > should work fine as long as it is 
> capable of taking an image (jpeg,
> > > > > > png, bitmap, plt, etc) and scaling it 
> accurately. The machines that
> > > > > > say "No computer required" look like 
> they would not be appropriate.
> > > > > > Most of my PCBs are less than 8 inches in size, but I would
> > > > > not object
> > > > > > to buying a larger cutter if the cost was not prohibitive.
> > > > > I have seen
> > > > > > some used or refurbished Roland vinyl cutters on ebay, any
> > > > > comments on
> > > > > > these?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > There are quite a few videos on YouTube 
> on using the older pen plotters with
> > > > a cutting blade to cut vynal. In the UK 
> these plotters come up from time to
> > > > time on E-bay. A recent one went for 
> around $110. I have all the bits but
> > > > just havn't got round to trying it...
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dave Wade G4UGM
> > > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

What was the minimum width of the line cut?

 

Jeff

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Riley
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:04 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
cutter

 

  

worked well enough when I tried it with a micro engraver (harbor freight
98227) and a cordless dremel (model 7300 from wally world) on FR1 machinable
board blanks (www.inventables.com/technologies/circuit-board-blanks)

--
Riley

From: jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@... <mailto:jcyoungs76%40gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper
cutter
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 6:56 PM

i get the little light bulb picture above my head!!!!!!!!!! lol

why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the
blade?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

if you can get the pin out from your printer I am certain linux cnc will do
this. however I donot know what code the cricut uses if its just gcode or
eia or ascii? The point being you would may  to use some other toolpath
software such as pcb to gcode. The linuxcnc site has links and the
software, i think probotix has links for the pcb software I think that pcb
is free, I recall in the ubuntu software center there being a bunch of
electronics software. You can dual boot alongside windows and the
installation is not that difficult, tuning without the stepper specifics
may be trial and error, im kind of curious  though how fast does this thing
feed? a dremel turning 30000 rpm with a carbide tool should peel off copper
at a pretty good clip. Unless the problem is stepper resolution IE steps
per revolution thats the reason for excessive feed, maybe. linuxcnc may
still allow compensation for this in the acceleration and velocities
section. If you need any help email me and ill give it my best good luck




On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Since the Silhoutte uses steppers, perhaps some
> of the free cnc programs could be used.
>
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:
> > >
>
-- 
jeremy youngs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> if you can get the pin out from your printer I am certain linux cnc will
do this.
> however I donot know what code the cricut uses if its just gcode or eia or
ascii?
> The point being you would may  to use some other toolpath software such as
> pcb to gcode. The linuxcnc site has links and the software, i think
probotix has
> links for the pcb software I think that pcb is free, I recall in the
ubuntu software
> center there being a bunch of electronics software. You can dual boot
alongside
> windows and the installation is not that difficult, tuning without the
stepper
> specifics may be trial and error, im kind of curious  though how fast does
this
> thing feed? a dremel turning 30000 rpm with a carbide tool should peel off
> copper at a pretty good clip. Unless the problem is stepper resolution IE
steps
> per revolution thats the reason for excessive feed, maybe. linuxcnc may
still
> allow compensation for this in the acceleration and velocities section. If
you
> need any help email me and ill give it my best good luck


LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut, you'd
have to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics.  Most of these
things use some form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security
(presumably that's how it was reverse engineered).

A couple of stepper drivers would be under $20 each, and the Eagle PCB
software has an add-on to generate g-code for LinuxCNC et al, so it's not a
huge challenge.

Then you just need to figure out how to keep the PCB flat while cutting
(double-sided tape etc) and buy a good set of earmuffs to block out the
sound of a Dremel running for an hour or three.

Tony

LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut, you'd
have to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these
things use some form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security
(presumably that's how it was reverse engineered).

not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
directly communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your
machine is operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not
work as you say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has
enable input , or bus line it probably will not work, if it has simple step
and direction inputs as per the ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I
say try it the only thing he has to lose is some time.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Has anyone reverse engineered the CirCut?
Or, is there a known problem in doing it?

I think the Bus Pirate
<http://dangerousprototypes.com/bus-pirate-manual/>or would be a
helpful tool in an effort.

See it at: http://dangerousprototypes.com/bus-pirate-manual/

Regards,
Eldon - WA0UWH


On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:02 PM, jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut, you'd
> have to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these
> things use some form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security
> (presumably that's how it was reverse engineered).
>
> not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
> directly communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your
> machine is operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not
> work as you say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has
> enable input , or bus line it probably will not work, if it has simple step
> and direction inputs as per the ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I
> say try it the only thing he has to lose is some time.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes here!!!!!! and they are talking to it that means linuxcnc will control
it !!!!

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Eldon Brown <eldonb46@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Has anyone reverse engineered the CirCut?
> Or, is there a known problem in doing it?
>
> I think the Bus Pirate
> <http://dangerousprototypes.com/bus-pirate-manual/>or would be a
> helpful tool in an effort.
>
> See it at: http://dangerousprototypes.com/bus-pirate-manual/
>
> Regards,
> Eldon - WA0UWH
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:02 PM, jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...>
> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut,
> you'd
> > have to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these
> > things use some form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security
> > (presumably that's how it was reverse engineered).
> >
> > not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
> > directly communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your
> > machine is operated via microprocessor without the source code it will
> not
> > work as you say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has
> > enable input , or bus line it probably will not work, if it has simple
> step
> > and direction inputs as per the ic mebtioned above I could make it work.
> I
> > say try it the only thing he has to lose is some time.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>



-- 
jeremy youngs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

More on this subject. New Cut'n'Drill experiment video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L14yUxxipfU&feature=player_embedded

Next time I'll use a smaller drill (0.032" used here) and bigger pad/via sizes. This PCB was for all thru-hole devices. Will try SMD parts soon but that should be easier.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Riley <rc3105@...> wrote:

>
> worked well enough when I tried it with a micro engraver (harbor freight 98227) and a cordless dremel (model 7300 from wally world) on FR1 machinable board blanks (www.inventables.com/technologies/circuit-board-blanks)
> 
> --
> Riley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...>
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
> Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 6:56 PM
>       
>       i get the little light bulb picture above my head!!!!!!!!!! lol
> 
> why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead of the blade?
>

> LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut,
you'd have
> to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these things
use some
> form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security (presumably that's how
it
> was reverse engineered).
> 
> not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
directly
> communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your machine is
> operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not work as
you
> say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has enable input
, or bus
> line it probably will not work, if it has simple step and direction inputs
as per the
> ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I say try it the only thing he
has to lose
> is some time.


Well, what I meant was there will be some electronics before the stepper
drivers (293 etc), that converts the HPGL (or whatever) to Step & Direction.
Some use weird driver chips simply replacing the lot is easier than figuring
it out.

You can't just plug it in as it and expect it to work.

Tony

linuxcnc outputs step/dir directly and is configurable and needs no signal
conditioning before a l293/97 etc. conditioning or coding is only necessary
for microprocessors. i have three sla7086 printer stepper setting on my
bench now that run just fine

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> > LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut,
> you'd have
> > to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these things
> use some
> > form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security (presumably that's how
> it
> > was reverse engineered).
> >
> > not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
> directly
> > communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your machine is
> > operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not work as
> you
> > say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has enable
> input
> , or bus
> > line it probably will not work, if it has simple step and direction
> inputs
> as per the
> > ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I say try it the only thing he
> has to lose
> > is some time.
>
> Well, what I meant was there will be some electronics before the stepper
> drivers (293 etc), that converts the HPGL (or whatever) to Step &
> Direction.
> Some use weird driver chips simply replacing the lot is easier than
> figuring
> it out.
>
> You can't just plug it in as it and expect it to work.
>
> Tony
>
>  
>



-- 
jeremy youngs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike,

How wide is the blade you are using? I've used cnc to make pcbs, but 
it isn't as easy as it might seem: Noise, dust, frequent tool 
changes, uneven surfaces, etc. One thing I might be concerned about, 
especially if the blade is very thin, is bridging when soldering. The 
"traces: are varying widths, but the "spaces" are the width of the blade.

If the machine is capable of doing a second pass, you could try 
either dragging a conical bit through the previous cuts or cutting a 
second time with a very small offset.

Mark


At 01:29 AM 6/22/2012, you wrote:

>More on this subject. New Cut'n'Drill experiment video here
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L14yUxxipfU&feature=player_embedded
>
>Next time I'll use a smaller drill (0.032" used here) and bigger 
>pad/via sizes. This PCB was for all thru-hole devices. Will try SMD 
>parts soon but that should be easier.
>
>Mike
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Riley <rc3105@...> wrote:
> >
> > worked well enough when I tried it with a micro engraver (harbor 
> freight 98227) and a cordless dremel (model 7300 from wally world) 
> on FR1 machinable board blanks 
> (www.inventables.com/technologies/circuit-board-blanks)
> >
> > --
> > Riley
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...>
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with 
> a CNC paper cutter
> > Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 6:56 PM
> >
> >       i get the little light bulb picture above my head!!!!!!!!!! lol
> >
> > why not add a milling bit and use that to cut the pattern instead 
> of the blade?
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Getting the Cricut machine to talk HPGL is a project I was working on
for several months last year. I based my work on an extension of the
"Freecut" firmware written for the Cricut Personal.

(see https://github.com/Arlet/Freecut)

I've ported it to the Cricut Create, and it does indeed speak a few
HPGL-like commands, but the place where I've gotten stuck is with
flow-control. My plan was to support the commands that other vinyl
cutters support (like the Black Cat, Roland, or US Cutter). This
firmware does require re-flashing the unit via ICSP programmer
connected through the cartridge port, which also irretrievably
overwrites the original firmware.

The Cricut has a FTDI chip on it providing the USB interface to the PC
which (from my understand) transparently converts XON/XOFF signals
from the onboard processor into USB flow control signals that the PC
obeys.

Unfortunately, the serial library I used (Fleury) does not support
software flow control, so unless you type your commands very slowly
into a terminal window, the machine skips most of them. The hardware
flow control lines on the FTDI are not connected to the Cricut's
processor, so this is not an option.

I started a private google group a while back with the purpose of
collaborating on it, but unfortunately noone else has taken up the
project since I got bored of it and moved on. I would love to find
someone with more motivation and a little better C skill than I to
finally solve the flow control problem. (see
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/ccfwhack).

Another idea I had that might be simpler to implement is a PC
parallel-port adapter to Cricut cartridge adapter cable, sending
encoded stepper control signals directly from PC to cricut via 1 mbps
SPI, and a thin firmware on the cricut that would obey those signals.
The PC would run something like LinuxCNC, using a custom configuration
for the parallel port driver.

I don't believe the USB interface is capable of fast enough throughput
to handle direct stepper phase control, but step-direction commands
might work. (flow control would still be an issue).

Here's a page linking to photos of the Cricut Personal, Expression,
and cartridge hardware. They control the stepper windings directly
rather than with dedicated stepper driver hardware. Cutting pressure
is via PWM to a voice coil in the cutter solenoid.

http://www.built-to-spec.com/cricutwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

I have several Expressions as well, which have the same processor as
the Create, but will need some additional code changes to support the
larger screen, additional keyboard buttons, and larger cutting area.

Anyhow, if you're seriously interested, join the list above. I can
potentially provide some dev hardware as well.

-David

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:43 AM, jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...> wrote:
> linuxcnc outputs step/dir directly and is configurable and needs no signal
> conditioning before a l293/97 etc. conditioning or coding is only necessary
> for microprocessors. i have three sla7086 printer stepper setting on my
> bench now that run just fine
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> > LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut,
>> you'd have
>> > to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these things
>> use some
>> > form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security (presumably that's how
>> it
>> > was reverse engineered).
>> >
>> > not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
>> directly
>> > communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your machine is
>> > operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not work as
>> you
>> > say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has enable
>> input
>> , or bus
>> > line it probably will not work, if it has simple step and direction
>> inputs
>> as per the
>> > ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I say try it the only thing he
>> has to lose
>> > is some time.
>>
>> Well, what I meant was there will be some electronics before the stepper
>> drivers (293 etc), that converts the HPGL (or whatever) to Step &
>> Direction.
>> Some use weird driver chips simply replacing the lot is easier than
>> figuring
>> it out.
>>
>> You can't just plug it in as it and expect it to work.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> jeremy youngs
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Right now, about 12-15 mils. Hopefully better when I figure out where the cutter departs from the commanded vectors.

Cheers,

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:

>
> What was the minimum width of the line cut?
> 
>  
> 
> Jeff
> 
>  
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@...> wrote:
>
> CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 
> 
> I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 
> 
> I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.
> 
> I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.
> 
> Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.
> 
> Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> 
> -mike
>
hi
dont you use spindel motor?
it seems you use magnet for z axis

Lots of good suggestions in these posts - thanks.

First, I've called my project CirCut (~circuit) as opposed to Cricut (one of many CNC paper cutters available at a "hobby" price today).  Sorry for the confusion.

The Cricut I have (Expression) but am not using now uses full or half step on the stepper motors, not microstepping (I believe). You can usually tell by the sound as I've worked with steppers many years and have begun to learn their sounds w and w/o microstepping. I can put a scope on it to tell for sure. Microstepping (should) gives you more fine control (and is more "musical" than half or full stepping) over the step size, velocity, etc. The Sillhouette Cameo I am using now I believe uses microstepping.

That said, if I were to suggest a modification where I take over the motors and software, an obvious solution (other than find the direct step&direction link from the machine's USB port to its motors) is to buy a few microstepping drivers and go with LinuxCNC, Mach3, etc and do it from scratch. Check out Sparkfun for some decent cheap modules to do this. If you check out PCB-Code (Yahoo Groups) there's a free Eagle-to-G-Code converter so you're almost there. 

I hope you appreciate my route in this thread - to follow this method until either it's determined it's a failure and shouldn't be pursued further or it's a success and competes favorably with present methods which are - mask-WetEtch-drill, cut&apply copper tape, or mill&drill.

With that in mind, I do agree that the mask-WetEtch-drill and  mill&drill methods do produce a better PCB...but at what cost and are the trade-offs worth it? The drag knife method has several advantages over others (IMHO):

1. (So far) requires essentially no modifications to hardware or software. This is a biggie IMHO as a lot of PCB makers don't want to bother with hacking h/w and/or s/w. BTW, one small mod I implemented is to support the weight of the drill accessory handle with a spring.
2. The cost is relatively low.
3. The speed to finished product is the quickest (I believe).
4. No mess with chemical etchants.
5. The knife blade kerf width is as small or smaller than a milling bit can make consistently (at least comparing it to our Accurate360 $15k machine here).
6. Board flattness doesn't seem to be an issue (a popular discussion on the PCB-Code Yahoo forum, a mechanical mill etching discussion group.
7. The berm left by the knife appears to act as an unexpected solder mask due to cupping (jury still out on this).
8. The cutter (at least my Silhouette) comes with PC controllability via USB, built-in cutter compensation, excellent built in auto tracing, SVG compatibility (with the Pro update) and auto registration via index marks.
9. Post-etch checking for shorts and trace continuity appear to indicate this method requires less "fixing" than our Accurate360 mechanical mill etcher.
10. Less noise than mill etcher - cutting is fairly quiet, drilling is noisy.

The downsides (so far) are:
1. This is a new technique so bugs are being found. The up side is solutions are being suggested, discovered and applied.
2. The berm of copper left on both sides of the knife cut could cause a later short. I'm looking at ways to mitigate this.
3. Carbide blades wear out - but about the same "mileage" we get with bits on our Accureate360.
4. The Y-axis board movement relies on friction but, so far, doesn't seem to be a problem.

Left to be done (known so far):
1. Reduce minimum trace width.
2. Discover method of front2back registration for double sided PCBs.
3. Automate the workflow.
4. Minimize risk of trace shorting.

Thanks again for comments & suggestions.

Mike 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Mitchell <gossiphog@...> wrote:

>
> Getting the Cricut machine to talk HPGL is a project I was working on
> for several months last year. I based my work on an extension of the
> "Freecut" firmware written for the Cricut Personal.
> 
> (see https://github.com/Arlet/Freecut)
> 
> I've ported it to the Cricut Create, and it does indeed speak a few
> HPGL-like commands, but the place where I've gotten stuck is with
> flow-control. My plan was to support the commands that other vinyl
> cutters support (like the Black Cat, Roland, or US Cutter). This
> firmware does require re-flashing the unit via ICSP programmer
> connected through the cartridge port, which also irretrievably
> overwrites the original firmware.
> 
> The Cricut has a FTDI chip on it providing the USB interface to the PC
> which (from my understand) transparently converts XON/XOFF signals
> from the onboard processor into USB flow control signals that the PC
> obeys.
> 
> Unfortunately, the serial library I used (Fleury) does not support
> software flow control, so unless you type your commands very slowly
> into a terminal window, the machine skips most of them. The hardware
> flow control lines on the FTDI are not connected to the Cricut's
> processor, so this is not an option.
> 
> I started a private google group a while back with the purpose of
> collaborating on it, but unfortunately noone else has taken up the
> project since I got bored of it and moved on. I would love to find
> someone with more motivation and a little better C skill than I to
> finally solve the flow control problem. (see
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/ccfwhack).
> 
> Another idea I had that might be simpler to implement is a PC
> parallel-port adapter to Cricut cartridge adapter cable, sending
> encoded stepper control signals directly from PC to cricut via 1 mbps
> SPI, and a thin firmware on the cricut that would obey those signals.
> The PC would run something like LinuxCNC, using a custom configuration
> for the parallel port driver.
> 
> I don't believe the USB interface is capable of fast enough throughput
> to handle direct stepper phase control, but step-direction commands
> might work. (flow control would still be an issue).
> 
> Here's a page linking to photos of the Cricut Personal, Expression,
> and cartridge hardware. They control the stepper windings directly
> rather than with dedicated stepper driver hardware. Cutting pressure
> is via PWM to a voice coil in the cutter solenoid.
> 
> http://www.built-to-spec.com/cricutwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
> 
> I have several Expressions as well, which have the same processor as
> the Create, but will need some additional code changes to support the
> larger screen, additional keyboard buttons, and larger cutting area.
> 
> Anyhow, if you're seriously interested, join the list above. I can
> potentially provide some dev hardware as well.
> 
> -David
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:43 AM, jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...> wrote:
> > linuxcnc outputs step/dir directly and is configurable and needs no signal
> > conditioning before a l293/97 etc. conditioning or coding is only necessary
> > for microprocessors. i have three sla7086 printer stepper setting on my
> > bench now that run just fine
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> > LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut,
> >> you'd have
> >> > to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these things
> >> use some
> >> > form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security (presumably that's how
> >> it
> >> > was reverse engineered).
> >> >
> >> > not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
> >> directly
> >> > communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your machine is
> >> > operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not work as
> >> you
> >> > say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has enable
> >> input
> >> , or bus
> >> > line it probably will not work, if it has simple step and direction
> >> inputs
> >> as per the
> >> > ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I say try it the only thing he
> >> has to lose
> >> > is some time.
> >>
> >> Well, what I meant was there will be some electronics before the stepper
> >> drivers (293 etc), that converts the HPGL (or whatever) to Step &
> >> Direction.
> >> Some use weird driver chips simply replacing the lot is easier than
> >> figuring
> >> it out.
> >>
> >> You can't just plug it in as it and expect it to work.
> >>
> >> Tony
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > jeremy youngs
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

It should work fine if you set the serial port driver in your computer to
use software flow control (XON/XOFF) and in Cricut program the
receiving function should send XOFF when ring buffer is full, then
it will keep reading/processing input and when you reach the low
watermark (half buffer?) send XON to start data flow again.

raymundo





>________________________________
> From: David Mitchell <gossiphog@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 7:27 AM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Produce Quick & Cheap PCBs with a CNC paper cutter
> 
>
>  
>Getting the Cricut machine to talk HPGL is a project I was working on
>for several months last year. I based my work on an extension of the
>"Freecut" firmware written for the Cricut Personal.
>
>(see https://github.com/Arlet/Freecut)
>
>I've ported it to the Cricut Create, and it does indeed speak a few
>HPGL-like commands, but the place where I've gotten stuck is with
>flow-control. My plan was to support the commands that other vinyl
>cutters support (like the Black Cat, Roland, or US Cutter). This
>firmware does require re-flashing the unit via ICSP programmer
>connected through the cartridge port, which also irretrievably
>overwrites the original firmware.
>
>The Cricut has a FTDI chip on it providing the USB interface to the PC
>which (from my understand) transparently converts XON/XOFF signals
>from the onboard processor into USB flow control signals that the PC
>obeys.
>
>Unfortunately, the serial library I used (Fleury) does not support
>software flow control, so unless you type your commands very slowly
>into a terminal window, the machine skips most of them. The hardware
>flow control lines on the FTDI are not connected to the Cricut's
>processor, so this is not an option.
>
>I started a private google group a while back with the purpose of
>collaborating on it, but unfortunately noone else has taken up the
>project since I got bored of it and moved on. I would love to find
>someone with more motivation and a little better C skill than I to
>finally solve the flow control problem. (see
>https://groups.google.com/d/forum/ccfwhack).
>
>Another idea I had that might be simpler to implement is a PC
>parallel-port adapter to Cricut cartridge adapter cable, sending
>encoded stepper control signals directly from PC to cricut via 1 mbps
>SPI, and a thin firmware on the cricut that would obey those signals.
>The PC would run something like LinuxCNC, using a custom configuration
>for the parallel port driver.
>
>I don't believe the USB interface is capable of fast enough throughput
>to handle direct stepper phase control, but step-direction commands
>might work. (flow control would still be an issue).
>
>Here's a page linking to photos of the Cricut Personal, Expression,
>and cartridge hardware. They control the stepper windings directly
>rather than with dedicated stepper driver hardware. Cutting pressure
>is via PWM to a voice coil in the cutter solenoid.
>
>http://www.built-to-spec.com/cricutwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
>
>I have several Expressions as well, which have the same processor as
>the Create, but will need some additional code changes to support the
>larger screen, additional keyboard buttons, and larger cutting area.
>
>Anyhow, if you're seriously interested, join the list above. I can
>potentially provide some dev hardware as well.
>
>-David
>
>On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:43 AM, jeremy youngs <jcyoungs76@...> wrote:
>> linuxcnc outputs step/dir directly and is configurable and needs no signal
>> conditioning before a l293/97 etc. conditioning or coding is only necessary
>> for microprocessors. i have three sla7086 printer stepper setting on my
>> bench now that run just fine
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>> > LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the CriCut,
>>> you'd have
>>> > to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these things
>>> use some
>>> > form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security (presumably that's how
>>> it
>>> > was reverse engineered).
>>> >
>>> > not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that will
>>> directly
>>> > communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your machine is
>>> > operated via microprocessor without the source code it will not work as
>>> you
>>> > say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has enable
>>> input
>>> , or bus
>>> > line it probably will not work, if it has simple step and direction
>>> inputs
>>> as per the
>>> > ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I say try it the only thing he
>>> has to lose
>>> > is some time.
>>>
>>> Well, what I meant was there will be some electronics before the stepper
>>> drivers (293 etc), that converts the HPGL (or whatever) to Step &
>>> Direction.
>>> Some use weird driver chips simply replacing the lot is easier than
>>> figuring
>>> it out.
>>>
>>> You can't just plug it in as it and expect it to work.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> jeremy youngs
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> 
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*scratches head*

Yes, LinuxCNC & pals output step & dir via the parallel port, but the
printer/plotter/router doesn't understand it.

You need to bypass some or all of the electronics to get at the steppers.

Tony

(...waits for the "yes I have 297 etc" response)
(*scratches head again*)



> linuxcnc outputs step/dir directly and is configurable and needs no signal
> conditioning before a l293/97 etc. conditioning or coding is only
necessary for
> microprocessors. i have three sla7086 printer stepper setting on my bench
now
> that run just fine
> 
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > > LinuxCNC (or anything else for that matter) won't talk to the
> > > CriCut,
> > you'd have
> > > to add your drivers and bypass all the electronics. Most of these
> > > things
> > use some
> > > form of HPGL, or mangled a bit to provide security (presumably
> > > that's how
> > it
> > > was reverse engineered).
> > >
> > > not necessarily true some printers run a simpl l293, 278 or 298 that
> > > will
> > directly
> > > communicate with lcnc, i know ive built them, however if your
> > > machine is operated via microprocessor without the source code it
> > > will not work as
> > you
> > > say. This is why i said the pinout was necessary as if it has enable
> > input
> > , or bus
> > > line it probably will not work, if it has simple step and direction
> > inputs
> > as per the
> > > ic mebtioned above I could make it work. I say try it the only thing
> > > he
> > has to lose
> > > is some time.
> >
> > Well, what I meant was there will be some electronics before the
> > stepper drivers (293 etc), that converts the HPGL (or whatever) to
> > Step & Direction.
> > Some use weird driver chips simply replacing the lot is easier than
> > figuring it out.
> >
> > You can't just plug it in as it and expect it to work.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> jeremy youngs
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

> microprocessors. i have three sla7086 printer stepper setting on my bench
now
> that run just fine these are printer pulls it is dependant on the printer
system check out instructables homemade cnc from printer. I aggree not all
will communicate but those without coded processors will


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, most of these hobby CNC cutters use a solenoid (electromagnet) for the Z-axis.....which is all that's realy needed. All you'd need is to mount the spindle much as I have done and install a suitable mechanical stop. This could be a plastic cap on the end of the spindle with just the mill bit sticking through at the depth you want it to penetrate into the copper and barely into the fiberglass. That way, the only down-or-up Z-axis would work fine. 

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "hossein" <saydhosseinsalari@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@> wrote:
> >
> > CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 
> > 
> > I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 
> > 
> > I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.
> > 
> > I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.
> > 
> > Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.
> > 
> > Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> > 
> > -mike
> >
> hi
> dont you use spindel motor?
> it seems you use magnet for z axis
>

Yes, most of these hobby CNC cutters use a solenoid (electromagnet) for the Z-axis.....which is all that's realy needed. All you'd need is to mount the spindle much as I have done and install a suitable mechanical stop. This could be a plastic cap on the end of the spindle with just the mill bit sticking through at the depth you want it to penetrate into the copper and barely into the fiberglass. That way, the only down-or-up Z-axis would work fine. 

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "hossein" <saydhosseinsalari@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <sinclair@> wrote:
> >
> > CirCut - the short story: With a ~$270 machine I can produce one and two sided PCBs inside of a few minutes - much faster than any other method I know of. The "few minutes" is from EagleCad output to a finished, etched copperclad PCB ready to be soldered. No messy etchant and no mods required to the machine. I'd like to start sharing this info in hopes the corpus of knowledge and utility will grow....if there's interest. 
> > 
> > I'm not talking about cutting a solder or etch mask or using an etch-resistant pen in an XY plotter as has been discussed in this group.  I'm talking about a ready-to-use PCB in a few minutes with no more than your PC and a hobby paper cutter. There is some hand-waving here....but not much :-) 
> > 
> > I'm fairly new to this group but not new to DIY PCBs, having sweated through most of the rapid protype production of PCBs for the past few decades. I did a web-wide search and a search on this group but can't find a similar technique so sorry if this is not new. Some folks at MIT  Media Lab use a vinyl cutter to cut copper foil with adhesive. You peel the circuit pattern off its backing and place it onto a substrate for soldering. My technique is different.
> > 
> > I started a few years ago making a PCBs with a Cricut CNC paper cutting machine by actually cutting through the copper cladding and isolating wires pads and vias, much the way mechanical etching does (see Yahoo group PCB-GCODE and the cover photo to this group). T-Tech, LPKF and Accurate have desktop milling machines that do this....for a pretty penny. A big problem with the Cricut was that there was no "drag knife compensation" - knowing where the swivel blade will follow behind the XY cutter so it can predictably lead it and not get funky lines which are no good for small traces or small pads. I had to limit my PCBs to ones with fairly fat traces and lines. But it still worked. A few months ago I discovered a new low-cost CNC paper cutter that solved most of my problems and now I'm producing fairly nice looking mechanically etched PCBs. I'm sure there are warts to be found but they haven't surfaced yet. Some of the cuts are not absolutely straight so this limits the smallest trace width to around 10 mils. I am now starting to document these findings, shortcomings, equipment sources, workflow, etc on my web page.
> > 
> > Some other things I am presently exploring is for this low-cost CNC machine to also automatically drill the PCB, label parts placement and add solder mask. I'm not sure how successful these efforts will be but it shows promise as I've been able to do all these things to some degree so far.
> > 
> > Please see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/papercutterpcbs/
> > 
> > -mike
> >
> hi
> dont you use spindel motor?
> it seems you use magnet for z axis
>

> 
> I don't believe the USB interface is capable of fast enough throughput
> to handle direct stepper phase control, but step-direction commands
> might work. (flow control would still be an issue).
> 


I bet it is. The widely available FTDI USB to serial chips will do 250kbps, just how fast does it need to be? That said, I'm not sure why you'd want to do direct phase control, there are some nice stepper driver IC's out there. I played with some TI driver ICs that have built in switchmode current limiting, and some fancy microstepping modes.

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 03:38:52 -0000, you wrote:

>
>> 
>> I don't believe the USB interface is capable of fast enough throughput
>> to handle direct stepper phase control, but step-direction commands
>> might work. (flow control would still be an issue).
>> 
>
>
>I bet it is. The widely available FTDI USB to serial chips will do 250kbps, just how fast does it need to be? That said, I'm not sure why you'd want to do direct phase control, there are some nice stepper driver IC's out there. I played with some TI driver ICs that have built in switchmode current limiting, and some fancy microstepping modes.

USB doesn't work well for stepper control.  It's not routed through
the appropriate layers in the operating system to give you a real time
way of controlling the mill.  

Fast is not the problem, it's that the messages do not arrive reliably
(in terms of time), nor are they interpreted necessarily in real time.

How to use USB would be to take the entire file, download it to
something smart, then let that execute and decode the file.  

Other people have tried (lots of discussion in the DIY-CNC group about
this), and that's about the only way that USB will work.

The traditional way is to either have dedicated hardware for
step/direction timing (I mean interpreting the G-code and then
generating the pulses), or a windows PC specially modified to bypass
windows's erratic timing, or a DOS machine, or a tweaked Linux
machine.

Harvey

USB 2.0 is used on a lot of direct stepping desktop and bench top mills. So
speed of the USB interface isn't an issue. What is an issue is the need for
true real-time support on Windows platforms. The Windows Kernel is the
bottle neck of such control systems. Not the USB interface.



On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 8:38 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> >
> > I don't believe the USB interface is capable of fast enough throughput
> > to handle direct stepper phase control, but step-direction commands
> > might work. (flow control would still be an issue).
> >
>
> I bet it is. The widely available FTDI USB to serial chips will do
> 250kbps, just how fast does it need to be? That said, I'm not sure why
> you'd want to do direct phase control, there are some nice stepper driver
> IC's out there. I played with some TI driver ICs that have built in
> switchmode current limiting, and some fancy microstepping modes.
>
>  
>



-- 
If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
it take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> USB 2.0 is used on a lot of direct stepping desktop and bench top mills.
So speed
> of the USB interface isn't an issue. What is an issue is the need for true
real-time
> support on Windows platforms. The Windows Kernel is the bottle neck of
such
> control systems. Not the USB interface.


Well, yes & no.

When people say USB is the problem they are comparing running a mill using
the parallel port, and then the USB port.  Even if you use a USB to Parallel
converter, the output from the USB/parallel is too choppy.  That's just how
USB works, it's fast but not as 'real time' as parallel.

In simple terms, talking to a parallel port (even under Windows) has fewer
delays than talking to USB.  You can predict the time it will take for a
message to be sent out the parallel port, with USB there will be tiny
unpredictable delays.

To use USB you need something like a Smoothstepper or Flashcut board, you
can view those as fancy USB-to-parallel converters if you like; they'll
buffer up the USB messages and send them to the mill at the correct rate.

Of course there's a premium for doing that, a parallel port is basically
free while a Smoothstepper isn't.  Then again if you want to run you mill
from a laptop...

Tony

The typical approach for using a paralleled port is to write to the port
directly without buffering. Most implementations of stepper controllers
using USB use either a buffering mechanism or interrupt driven data feed.
The actual throughput of a high speed paralleled port is on the order of
512Kbps. The standard through put of a USB 2.0 port is 480Mbps. The issue
of choppiness is one of the OS/Software implementation and not the hardware
port. The issue arises from the fact that writing directly to
the parallele port is much easier than writing directly to a USB port.
Again, the issue is in the software handling of the port and not the port
speed.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> > USB 2.0 is used on a lot of direct stepping desktop and bench top mills.
> So speed
> > of the USB interface isn't an issue. What is an issue is the need for
> true
> real-time
> > support on Windows platforms. The Windows Kernel is the bottle neck of
> such
> > control systems. Not the USB interface.
>
> Well, yes & no.
>
> When people say USB is the problem they are comparing running a mill using
> the parallel port, and then the USB port. Even if you use a USB to Parallel
> converter, the output from the USB/parallel is too choppy. That's just how
> USB works, it's fast but not as 'real time' as parallel.
>
> In simple terms, talking to a parallel port (even under Windows) has fewer
> delays than talking to USB. You can predict the time it will take for a
> message to be sent out the parallel port, with USB there will be tiny
> unpredictable delays.
>
> To use USB you need something like a Smoothstepper or Flashcut board, you
> can view those as fancy USB-to-parallel converters if you like; they'll
> buffer up the USB messages and send them to the mill at the correct rate.
>
> Of course there's a premium for doing that, a parallel port is basically
> free while a Smoothstepper isn't. Then again if you want to run you mill
> from a laptop...
>
> Tony
>
>  
>



-- 
If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
it take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The typical approach for using a paralleled port is to write to the port
directly
> without buffering. Most implementations of stepper controllers using USB
use
> either a buffering mechanism or interrupt driven data feed.
> The actual throughput of a high speed paralleled port is on the order of
> 512Kbps. The standard through put of a USB 2.0 port is 480Mbps. The issue
of
> choppiness is one of the OS/Software implementation and not the hardware
> port. The issue arises from the fact that writing directly to the
parallele port is
> much easier than writing directly to a USB port.
> Again, the issue is in the software handling of the port and not the port
speed.


That's what I said, you need extra (and smart) hardware to use USB.  There
is no OS that can handle USB in the same fashion as parallel.

It doesn't matter how fast you can pump bits out the USB port, there is no
guarantee of when they will arrive.  USB is like catching a bus, you wait
for ages then three turn up at once.

Tony

USB can be used in an interrupt driven system. For example a timer can be
used to to generate a periodic interrupt to trigger the usb data to be
sent. Just as can be done with a parallel or serial port. In the case of
directly driving steppers the periodic time constant must be low enough or
the stepper controller must be smart enough to buffer enough incoming data
to last until the next data transmission. Even smarter hardware might send
an interrupt request to the PC to request more data to fill it's buffer.

A good demo of this was done in the Windows port of EMC2 RTS. Here a
Windows XP, Vista, or 7 host uses the USB port to send data to a PIC uC to
be buffered. The step data is then used to drive the motor steps. The data
transfer rate is plenty high enough but the period between transfers is the
issue. Under Linux, USB can be accessed at a lower level then under Windows
and results in lower transmission latency.

Playing Devil's advocate I'd say that RTOSs in uC devices can and do
provide almost identical access to hardware USB as they do to parallel
ports.... But on the PC level you are right in that the OS allows much
lower level access to the para port.




On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> > The typical approach for using a paralleled port is to write to the port
> directly
> > without buffering. Most implementations of stepper controllers using USB
> use
> > either a buffering mechanism or interrupt driven data feed.
> > The actual throughput of a high speed paralleled port is on the order of
> > 512Kbps. The standard through put of a USB 2.0 port is 480Mbps. The issue
> of
> > choppiness is one of the OS/Software implementation and not the hardware
> > port. The issue arises from the fact that writing directly to the
> parallele port is
> > much easier than writing directly to a USB port.
> > Again, the issue is in the software handling of the port and not the port
> speed.
>
> That's what I said, you need extra (and smart) hardware to use USB. There
> is no OS that can handle USB in the same fashion as parallel.
>
> It doesn't matter how fast you can pump bits out the USB port, there is no
> guarantee of when they will arrive. USB is like catching a bus, you wait
> for ages then three turn up at once.
>
> Tony
>
>  
>



-- 
If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
it take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> USB can be used in an interrupt driven system. For example a timer can be
used
> to to generate a periodic interrupt to trigger the usb data to be sent.
Just as can
> be done with a parallel or serial port. In the case of directly driving
steppers the
> periodic time constant must be low enough or the stepper controller must
be
> smart enough to buffer enough incoming data to last until the next data
> transmission. Even smarter hardware might send an interrupt request to the
PC
> to request more data to fill it's buffer.
> 
> A good demo of this was done in the Windows port of EMC2 RTS. Here a
> Windows XP, Vista, or 7 host uses the USB port to send data to a PIC uC to
be
> buffered. The step data is then used to drive the motor steps. The data
transfer
> rate is plenty high enough but the period between transfers is the issue.
Under
> Linux, USB can be accessed at a lower level then under Windows and results
in
> lower transmission latency.
> 
> Playing Devil's advocate I'd say that RTOSs in uC devices can and do
provide
> almost identical access to hardware USB as they do to parallel ports....
But on
> the PC level you are right in that the OS allows much lower level access
to the
> para port.


That's the grumble people have, USB isn't as simple as parallel.  The
hardware your describing already exists (Smoothstepper, Flashcut etc), and
there are even Ethernet versions.  Some people even use Arduinos for that.

The PC just dumps the g-code to the hardware, and the hardware controls the
mill, not the PC.  That's the way CNC used to be, with g-code drip-fed via
RS-232.

The basic point is that direct control of CNC via USB isn't feasible, the
messaging stack introduces delays that makes it unreliable.  Window, Linux,
Mac; they've all got the same problem.  

Even if it does work ok, someone plugs in something extra... and the OS go
off to handle that.

Some people just don't like having to spend an extra $300 when the parallel
port works just fine.

Tony

No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which has
to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using a
RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> > USB can be used in an interrupt driven system. For example a timer can be
> used
> > to to generate a periodic interrupt to trigger the usb data to be sent.
> Just as can
> > be done with a parallel or serial port. In the case of directly driving
> steppers the
> > periodic time constant must be low enough or the stepper controller must
> be
> > smart enough to buffer enough incoming data to last until the next data
> > transmission. Even smarter hardware might send an interrupt request to
> the
> PC
> > to request more data to fill it's buffer.
> >
> > A good demo of this was done in the Windows port of EMC2 RTS. Here a
> > Windows XP, Vista, or 7 host uses the USB port to send data to a PIC uC
> to
> be
> > buffered. The step data is then used to drive the motor steps. The data
> transfer
> > rate is plenty high enough but the period between transfers is the issue.
> Under
> > Linux, USB can be accessed at a lower level then under Windows and
> results
> in
> > lower transmission latency.
> >
> > Playing Devil's advocate I'd say that RTOSs in uC devices can and do
> provide
> > almost identical access to hardware USB as they do to parallel ports....
> But on
> > the PC level you are right in that the OS allows much lower level access
> to the
> > para port.
>
> That's the grumble people have, USB isn't as simple as parallel. The
> hardware your describing already exists (Smoothstepper, Flashcut etc), and
> there are even Ethernet versions. Some people even use Arduinos for that.
>
> The PC just dumps the g-code to the hardware, and the hardware controls the
> mill, not the PC. That's the way CNC used to be, with g-code drip-fed via
> RS-232.
>
> The basic point is that direct control of CNC via USB isn't feasible, the
> messaging stack introduces delays that makes it unreliable. Window, Linux,
> Mac; they've all got the same problem.
>
> Even if it does work ok, someone plugs in something extra... and the OS go
> off to handle that.
>
> Some people just don't like having to spend an extra $300 when the parallel
> port works just fine.
>
> Tony
>
>  
>



-- 
If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
it take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've always been interested in RTOS's, mostly because I'm used to
programming before the whole multitasking thing anyway.
Did you have one in mind for a usb application?
I was considering a similar process for a cheap solution for another
stepper and solenoid device(diy thermal solar).
It's possible to run usb under DOS and there are open source cnc programs.
Perhaps a patch could reroute the signals through a usb layer.
Of course this just me thinking out loud. I'd have to dig out a laptop that
had those programs on it and see if the usb dos driver causes hiccups in
the cnc program first.


On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:45 AM, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@...> wrote:

> No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which has
> to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using a
> RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > > USB can be used in an interrupt driven system. For example a timer can
> be
> > used
> > > to to generate a periodic interrupt to trigger the usb data to be sent.
> > Just as can
> > > be done with a parallel or serial port. In the case of directly driving
> > steppers the
> > > periodic time constant must be low enough or the stepper controller
> must
> > be
> > > smart enough to buffer enough incoming data to last until the next data
> > > transmission. Even smarter hardware might send an interrupt request to
> > the
> > PC
> > > to request more data to fill it's buffer.
> > >
> > > A good demo of this was done in the Windows port of EMC2 RTS. Here a
> > > Windows XP, Vista, or 7 host uses the USB port to send data to a PIC uC
> > to
> > be
> > > buffered. The step data is then used to drive the motor steps. The data
> > transfer
> > > rate is plenty high enough but the period between transfers is the
> issue.
> > Under
> > > Linux, USB can be accessed at a lower level then under Windows and
> > results
> > in
> > > lower transmission latency.
> > >
> > > Playing Devil's advocate I'd say that RTOSs in uC devices can and do
> > provide
> > > almost identical access to hardware USB as they do to parallel
> ports....
> > But on
> > > the PC level you are right in that the OS allows much lower level
> access
> > to the
> > > para port.
> >
> > That's the grumble people have, USB isn't as simple as parallel. The
> > hardware your describing already exists (Smoothstepper, Flashcut etc),
> and
> > there are even Ethernet versions. Some people even use Arduinos for that.
> >
> > The PC just dumps the g-code to the hardware, and the hardware controls
> the
> > mill, not the PC. That's the way CNC used to be, with g-code drip-fed via
> > RS-232.
> >
> > The basic point is that direct control of CNC via USB isn't feasible, the
> > messaging stack introduces delays that makes it unreliable. Window,
> Linux,
> > Mac; they've all got the same problem.
> >
> > Even if it does work ok, someone plugs in something extra... and the OS
> go
> > off to handle that.
> >
> > Some people just don't like having to spend an extra $300 when the
> parallel
> > port works just fine.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
> The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
> it take?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@...> wrote:
>
> No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which has
> to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using a
> RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
> 


I rather like the idea of using Gcode since it's so ubiquitous in the world of CNC. Seems like some of the modern microcontrollers ought to have more than enough power to interpret Gcode and drive some stepper motors or servos. It has struck me a number of times that in virtually everything I have ever built with a microcontroller, even the lowest end ones end up spending 90% of their time in delay loops.

This was one of my original ideas, perhaps to port GRBL (which runs on a
very similar AVR chip) to the Cricut's hardware.

http://dank.bengler.no/-/page/show/5473_connectinggrbl

The biggest issue would be that GRBL outputs step/direction pulses, so to
run this on a Cricut we'd need to just adapt this to the proper stepper
phases.

The Cricut hardware provides "half power" and "full power" control for each
stepper phase, there are not enough PWM channels to do true sinusoidal
stepping in both X and Y directions, but I rather like the "High Torque
Half Stepping" mode described here:

http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/halfstep.htm

Flow control would still be an issue since there's not enough onboard
memory to buffer more than the smallest jobs, but I think you could
probably design a RAM card for the cartridge slot, or even a flashcard
reader to completely cut the cord.

Interestingly enough, Cricut cartridges contain their own ATMEGA16
processor and 1 mbit flash memory (and a conveniently located programming
header), I bet you could even reprogram one to serve as the job buffer, no
hardware design needed.

-David



On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 2:04 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which has
> > to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using a
> > RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
> >
>
> I rather like the idea of using Gcode since it's so ubiquitous in the
> world of CNC. Seems like some of the modern microcontrollers ought to have
> more than enough power to interpret Gcode and drive some stepper motors or
> servos. It has struck me a number of times that in virtually everything I
> have ever built with a microcontroller, even the lowest end ones end up
> spending 90% of their time in delay loops.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you're using a PC I tend to prefer one of the LINUX RTOS flavors. Even
Ubuntu has an RTOS kernel. The ENC2 folks use it for their distro. If your
using an embedded  solution then I like the QP framework or you can use an
RTOS made for your uController. The latency issue can arise even in a para
port controller. This is why EMC2 uses the Ubuntu RTOS kernel. USB does
have a high speed version that is supported under windows. However, this
only garuanties that the device will be polled in a timely manner as short
as 125 micro-seconds. This can get slower for chained devices and can be
interrupted by high priority OS interrupts. So most USB controllers will
buffer the data to allow for this.

Parallel ports are much easier to use. They require no drivers and in some
OSs can be addressed directly. They are great for simple low current
devices and can be used to generate high voltages by voltage multiplication
for programming small devices. However, their standards are loose and you
can never count on the implementer to have followed the standards. Still
they are/were popular for hardware hackers because of their simplicity,
ease of programming, ruggedness and popularity on PCs. However, they are
getting harder to find and because of this, hardware hackers are going to
be forced to pick up the USB interface as a viable communication interface
to their devices.

There is some help here. The FTI devices have default configurations that
can allow the device to function as a serial or parallel port right from
power up. Some devices actually look like a generic 8 bit port and can be
programmed via the USB cable. So in this case there is no need for a
uController. USB is booth a Software and Hardware implementation. However,
their are APIs in most OSs (even a lot of uC RTOSs) and there are libraries
for writing to USB. A little more knowledge is needed than was required for
the serial and parallel ports however, there are also gains to be had. Like
everything, there are trade offs.

If you've not done any USB coding I'd suggest getting a good book on the
subject. Or read a few online tutorials before choosing it as your
interface. Or take the easy route and use a virtual COMM or Printer port
and a smart USB device on your project board.

I believe that in most cases the move to USB is well worth the gains.
However, in areas where timing is important it does leave some issues to be
resolved. Most can be dealt with by using high speed or burst mode data
transfers and buffering on the device. Sometimes however, USB simply isn't
the right choice.... This is when a bus that supports true interrupt or
real time capabilities is required.



On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:59 AM, DENNIS SHELGREN <nojoeco@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I've always been interested in RTOS's, mostly because I'm used to
> programming before the whole multitasking thing anyway.
> Did you have one in mind for a usb application?
> I was considering a similar process for a cheap solution for another
> stepper and solenoid device(diy thermal solar).
> It's possible to run usb under DOS and there are open source cnc programs.
> Perhaps a patch could reroute the signals through a usb layer.
> Of course this just me thinking out loud. I'd have to dig out a laptop that
> had those programs on it and see if the usb dos driver causes hiccups in
> the cnc program first.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:45 AM, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which has
> > to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using a
> > RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tony Smith <ajsmith1968@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > USB can be used in an interrupt driven system. For example a timer
> can
> > be
> > > used
> > > > to to generate a periodic interrupt to trigger the usb data to be
> sent.
> > > Just as can
> > > > be done with a parallel or serial port. In the case of directly
> driving
> > > steppers the
> > > > periodic time constant must be low enough or the stepper controller
> > must
> > > be
> > > > smart enough to buffer enough incoming data to last until the next
> data
> > > > transmission. Even smarter hardware might send an interrupt request
> to
> > > the
> > > PC
> > > > to request more data to fill it's buffer.
> > > >
> > > > A good demo of this was done in the Windows port of EMC2 RTS. Here a
> > > > Windows XP, Vista, or 7 host uses the USB port to send data to a PIC
> uC
> > > to
> > > be
> > > > buffered. The step data is then used to drive the motor steps. The
> data
> > > transfer
> > > > rate is plenty high enough but the period between transfers is the
> > issue.
> > > Under
> > > > Linux, USB can be accessed at a lower level then under Windows and
> > > results
> > > in
> > > > lower transmission latency.
> > > >
> > > > Playing Devil's advocate I'd say that RTOSs in uC devices can and do
> > > provide
> > > > almost identical access to hardware USB as they do to parallel
> > ports....
> > > But on
> > > > the PC level you are right in that the OS allows much lower level
> > access
> > > to the
> > > > para port.
> > >
> > > That's the grumble people have, USB isn't as simple as parallel. The
> > > hardware your describing already exists (Smoothstepper, Flashcut etc),
> > and
> > > there are even Ethernet versions. Some people even use Arduinos for
> that.
> > >
> > > The PC just dumps the g-code to the hardware, and the hardware controls
> > the
> > > mill, not the PC. That's the way CNC used to be, with g-code drip-fed
> via
> > > RS-232.
> > >
> > > The basic point is that direct control of CNC via USB isn't feasible,
> the
> > > messaging stack introduces delays that makes it unreliable. Window,
> > Linux,
> > > Mac; they've all got the same problem.
> > >
> > > Even if it does work ok, someone plugs in something extra... and the OS
> > go
> > > off to handle that.
> > >
> > > Some people just don't like having to spend an extra $300 when the
> > parallel
> > > port works just fine.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be
> done.
> > The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
> > it take?
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
>
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>



-- 
If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
it take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are GCode interpreters for AVR, PIC and ARM devices already. Just
Google them. But most commercial packages use the PC software to convert
Gcode to step commands (Mach 3, KCAM, EMC2, TURBO CNC) and send the step
commands to dumb (by comparison) power amplifiers/drivers. Usually just
logic for motor control.



On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:22 PM, David Mitchell <gossiphog@...>wrote:

> This was one of my original ideas, perhaps to port GRBL (which runs on a
> very similar AVR chip) to the Cricut's hardware.
>
> http://dank.bengler.no/-/page/show/5473_connectinggrbl
>
> The biggest issue would be that GRBL outputs step/direction pulses, so to
> run this on a Cricut we'd need to just adapt this to the proper stepper
> phases.
>
> The Cricut hardware provides "half power" and "full power" control for each
> stepper phase, there are not enough PWM channels to do true sinusoidal
> stepping in both X and Y directions, but I rather like the "High Torque
> Half Stepping" mode described here:
>
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/halfstep.htm
>
> Flow control would still be an issue since there's not enough onboard
> memory to buffer more than the smallest jobs, but I think you could
> probably design a RAM card for the cartridge slot, or even a flashcard
> reader to completely cut the cord.
>
> Interestingly enough, Cricut cartridges contain their own ATMEGA16
> processor and 1 mbit flash memory (and a conveniently located programming
> header), I bet you could even reprogram one to serve as the job buffer, no
> hardware design needed.
>
> -David
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 2:04 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which
> has
> > > to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done
> using a
> > > RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
> > >
> >
> > I rather like the idea of using Gcode since it's so ubiquitous in the
> > world of CNC. Seems like some of the modern microcontrollers ought to
> have
> > more than enough power to interpret Gcode and drive some stepper motors
> or
> > servos. It has struck me a number of times that in virtually everything I
> > have ever built with a microcontroller, even the lowest end ones end up
> > spending 90% of their time in delay loops.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


-- 
If you ask me if it can be done. The answer is YES, it can always be done.
The correct questions however are... What will it cost, and how long will
it take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:04:51 -0000, you wrote:

>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@...> wrote:
>>
>> No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which has
>> to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using a
>> RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
>> 
>
>
>I rather like the idea of using Gcode since it's so ubiquitous in the world of CNC. Seems like some of the modern microcontrollers ought to have more than enough power to interpret Gcode and drive some stepper motors or servos. It has struck me a number of times that in virtually everything I have ever built with a microcontroller, even the lowest end ones end up spending 90% of their time in delay loops.

Then do an interrupt based system, and check for flags from
interrupting conditions.

The tactical difficulty in a delay loop is that if the external (and
sometimes internal) conditions are not interrupts, you can't respond
quickly.

A trick is to tweak the delay loop calls so that you toggle a pin high
when entering and low when leaving.  An oscilloscope can tell you
wonders about where you spend your time.

an FPGA or CPLD can be used to generate steps.

Harvey

i chimed in on this once before and it seems to me the obvious is go buy
some pipe, some mdf and a stepper kit from ebay and build a router, yuo
will be amazed at what else you use it for. if you repurpose components and
shop frugally youll have about 400 or less into it and it Will make you
money. just my .02

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:04:51 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Randall Morgan <rmorgan62@...>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> No, what I am describing is sending the step data not the GCode which
> has
> >> to be interpreted and compiled into step commands. It can be done using
> a
> >> RTOS but under a non RTOS it requires either extra hardware buffering.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]