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ground planes

ground planes

2012-03-15 by sailingto

Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.

I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.

Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?

Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.

Ken H>

Re: ground planes

2012-03-15 by sailingto

Board size range is from 2"X3" to 6"X8" in size. Again, the traces usually look good, just when I have large ground plane areas.

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
> 
> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
> 
> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
> 
> Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
> 
> Ken H>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes

2012-03-15 by Leon Heller

On 15/03/2012 15:15, sailingto wrote:
> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good
> 'n solid with copper? I've been having a bit of problem with large
> ground plane areas using toner transfer method. If I do a board without
> a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from
> .015" to .050" or so.
>
> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol. Toner transfer at 360\ufffdF with a
> laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.
> I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure
> about large areas yet.
>
> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a
> solution...... or maybe it's just me?

It's a common problem with laser printers. The photo-etch process I use 
with an inkjet printer handles large copper areas OK.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes

2012-03-15 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Use a mesh pattern, rather than solid. It happens because the electrostatic charge migrates from large areas.

Malcolm
 
I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 From: sailingto <sailingtoo@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:15 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes
 

  
Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.

I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.

Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?

Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.

Ken H> 


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: ground planes

2012-03-15 by sailingto

I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.

The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern for the solid ground plane?  I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or ExpressPCB programs.  Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it "looks" solid on transfer?

With the normal transfer, the ground plane "looks" like it has good toner transfer - very black.  BUT, on etching it doesn't look so good with many tiny holes showing.

Thanks for the suggestions and info - I might have to try photo - etching.  That does seem to have better results.

Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Use a mesh pattern, rather than solid. It happens because the electrostatic charge migrates from large areas.
> 
> Malcolm
> Â 
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
> The writing is on the wall.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: sailingto <sailingtoo@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:15 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes
>  
> 
> Â  
> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
> 
> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
> 
> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
> 
> Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
> 
> Ken H> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes

2012-03-15 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

It does not have to be fine, unless you are at microwave and above frequencies. A course mesh is good enough, 1/4" is fine.

Some pcb packages have a mesh fill option.

Malcolm

 
I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 From: sailingto <sailingtoo@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:21 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes
 

  
I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.

The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern for the solid ground plane?  I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or ExpressPCB programs.  Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it "looks" solid on transfer?

With the normal transfer, the ground plane "looks" like it has good toner transfer - very black.  BUT, on etching it doesn't look so good with many tiny holes showing.

Thanks for the suggestions and info - I might have to try photo - etching.  That does seem to have better results.

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:
>
> Use a mesh pattern, rather than solid. It happens because the electrostatic charge migrates from large areas.
> 
> Malcolm
> Â 
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
> The writing is on the wall.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: sailingto <sailingtoo@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:15 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes
> 
> 
> Â  
> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
> 
> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
> 
> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
> 
> Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
> 
> Ken H> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: ground planes

2012-03-15 by sailingto

I'm working on a HF amp layout now based on the EB104 design (pretty well followed by modern manuf on their HF amps).  Since max freq would be 30 mhz (maybe 50?) 1/4" mesh would be ok.  The current carrying is primary with the copper heat spreader below anyway.

A copper mesh would look better than the solid copper with pin holes all in it.... I think<:)

OK, thanks for all the help.

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> It does not have to be fine, unless you are at microwave and above frequencies. A course mesh is good enough, 1/4" is fine.
> 
> Some pcb packages have a mesh fill option.
> 
> Malcolm
> 
> Â 
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
> The writing is on the wall.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: sailingto <sailingtoo@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@...m 
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:21 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes
>  
> 
> Â  
> I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.
> 
> The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern for the solid ground plane?  I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or ExpressPCB programs.  Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it "looks" solid on transfer?
> 
> With the normal transfer, the ground plane "looks" like it has good toner transfer - very black.  BUT, on etching it doesn't look so good with many tiny holes showing.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions and info - I might have to try photo - etching.  That does seem to have better results.
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@> wrote:
> >
> > Use a mesh pattern, rather than solid. It happens because the electrostatic charge migrates from large areas.
> > 
> > Malcolm
> >  
> > I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> > Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
> > The writing is on the wall.
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> >  From: sailingto <sailingtoo@>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:15 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
> > 
> > I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
> > 
> > Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
> > 
> > Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
> > 
> > Ken H> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
>  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes

2012-03-15 by Leon Heller

On 15/03/2012 17:21, sailingto wrote:
> I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.

It will have if you use a laser printer to create the transparencies. 
You must use an inkjet printer.

>
> The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern
> for the solid ground plane? I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or
> ExpressPCB programs. Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it
> "looks" solid on transfer?

It's more a "cross-hatch" pattern than a mesh, using, say, diagonal 
lines at right angles, with something like 10/10 mil lines. The Pulsonix 
software I use has a cross-hatch option for copper pour and power/ground 
planes.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Re: ground planes

2012-03-15 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
> 
> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
> 
> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
> 
> Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
> 
> Ken H>
>

I thought the Green TRF from Pulsar is designed to fix this exact problem?

Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by sailingto

I sure hope so.  I've tried it a bit and it does help, but only had enough for the one time.  I've just got an order of the 8"X15ft roll - I'll be testing it over the weekend.

Ken H>


> I thought the Green TRF from Pulsar is designed to fix this exact problem?
>

Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by sailingto

If Eagle has this option, I've not found it yet - doesn't mean it doesn't have it. 

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 15/03/2012 17:21, sailingto wrote:
> > I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.
> 
> It will have if you use a laser printer to create the transparencies. 
> You must use an inkjet printer.
> 
> >
> > The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern
> > for the solid ground plane? I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or
> > ExpressPCB programs. Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it
> > "looks" solid on transfer?
> 
> It's more a "cross-hatch" pattern than a mesh, using, say, diagonal 
> lines at right angles, with something like 10/10 mil lines. The Pulsonix 
> software I use has a cross-hatch option for copper pour and power/ground 
> planes.
> 
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by Harvey White

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:21:12 -0000, you wrote:

>I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.

if a laser produces the pattern, yes.  If an inkjet, no.

>
>The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern for the solid ground plane?  I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or ExpressPCB programs.  Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it "looks" solid on transfer?

Nope, charge tends to congregate at the edges of any pattern.  A large
black area will be darker at the edges with a laser printer.  Inkjet,
nope.


>
>With the normal transfer, the ground plane "looks" like it has good toner transfer - very black.  BUT, on etching it doesn't look so good with many tiny holes showing.

if that's toner transfer, welcome to the club.

If you can do a mesh, then you're using a lot of fine lines, so the
holes are deliberate.  That'll work.

You can control the size of the holes, but too small, and you don't
equalize the charge enough.

>
>Thanks for the suggestions and info - I might have to try photo - etching.  That does seem to have better results.

Depends on how the master pattern is laid down.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Ken H>
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:
>>
>> Use a mesh pattern, rather than solid. It happens because the electrostatic charge migrates from large areas.
>> 
>> Malcolm
>>  
>> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
>> Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
>> The writing is on the wall.
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>>  From: sailingto <sailingtoo@...>
>> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:15 PM
>> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] ground planes
>>  
>> 
>>   
>> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
>> 
>> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360ºF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
>> 
>> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
>> 
>> Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
>> 
>> Ken H> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by Harvey White

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:38:22 -0000, you wrote:

>If Eagle has this option, I've not found it yet - doesn't mean it doesn't have it. 

polygon, properties, uncheck solid fill, then the parameter for the
pattern is effective (it's not isolation).

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Ken H>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
>>
>> On 15/03/2012 17:21, sailingto wrote:
>> > I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.
>> 
>> It will have if you use a laser printer to create the transparencies. 
>> You must use an inkjet printer.
>> 
>> >
>> > The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern
>> > for the solid ground plane? I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or
>> > ExpressPCB programs. Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it
>> > "looks" solid on transfer?
>> 
>> It's more a "cross-hatch" pattern than a mesh, using, say, diagonal 
>> lines at right angles, with something like 10/10 mil lines. The Pulsonix 
>> software I use has a cross-hatch option for copper pour and power/ground 
>> planes.
>> 
>> Leon
>> -- 
>> Leon Heller
>> G1HSM
>>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by Harvey White

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:09:47 -0000, you wrote:

>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have problems getting large ground plane areas to stay good 'n solid with copper?  I've been having a bit of problem with large ground plane areas using toner transfer method.  If I do a board without a large ground plane, the traces look good - trace size ranges from .015" to .050" or so.
>> 
>> I clean copper good, wash with alcohol.  Toner transfer at 360\ufffdF with a laminator using Pulsar toner transfer paper, then etch in HCl and H2O2.  I used the green film last board and it seems a bit better, but not sure about large areas yet.
>> 
>> Just checking to see if anyone else has this problem, or maybe found a solution...... or maybe it's just me?
>> 
>> Thanks for any guidance and suggestions.
>> 
>> Ken H>
>>
>
>I thought the Green TRF from Pulsar is designed to fix this exact problem?

I suspect that it fixes pinholes, but we're talking *thin* here.  Not
sure that even green TRF will fix this....

Harvey

Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by sailingto

Thanks for the info - that works a treat. I'm just learning Eagle - much more familiar with ExpressPCB, but that program does not allow me the option of mirror for top layer.  This new HP laser P1102 does not have the mirror option in the software either - not like ALL the older HP laser printers I've had.

Thank you again,

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:38:22 -0000, you wrote:
> 
> >If Eagle has this option, I've not found it yet - doesn't mean it doesn't have it. 
> 
> polygon, properties, uncheck solid fill, then the parameter for the
> pattern is effective (it's not isolation).
> 
> Harvey
> 
> >
> >Ken H>
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 15/03/2012 17:21, sailingto wrote:
> >> > I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.
> >> 
> >> It will have if you use a laser printer to create the transparencies. 
> >> You must use an inkjet printer.
> >> 
> >> >
> >> > The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern
> >> > for the solid ground plane? I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or
> >> > ExpressPCB programs. Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it
> >> > "looks" solid on transfer?
> >> 
> >> It's more a "cross-hatch" pattern than a mesh, using, say, diagonal 
> >> lines at right angles, with something like 10/10 mil lines. The Pulsonix 
> >> software I use has a cross-hatch option for copper pour and power/ground 
> >> planes.
> >> 
> >> Leon
> >> -- 
> >> Leon Heller
> >> G1HSM
> >>
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ground planes

2012-03-16 by Harvey White

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:21:51 -0000, you wrote:

>Thanks for the info - that works a treat. I'm just learning Eagle - much more familiar with ExpressPCB, but that program does not allow me the option of mirror for top layer.  This new HP laser P1102 does not have the mirror option in the software either - not like ALL the older HP laser printers I've had.

Depending on how linear your printer is, when trying to match layers,
you may wish to do the following:

1) on the top layer, check mirror and upside down.

2) on the bottom layer, do not mirror and do not upside down

That ought to put the left side of the board on the printer on both
the top and bottom.  If your printer is a bit non-linear across the
page, the non-linear parts might match.  Ideally, the board is
properly centered.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Thank you again,
>
>Ken H>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:38:22 -0000, you wrote:
>> 
>> >If Eagle has this option, I've not found it yet - doesn't mean it doesn't have it. 
>> 
>> polygon, properties, uncheck solid fill, then the parameter for the
>> pattern is effective (it's not isolation).
>> 
>> Harvey
>> 
>> >
>> >Ken H>
>> >
>> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 15/03/2012 17:21, sailingto wrote:
>> >> > I had wondered about the photo etch method and if it had this problem.
>> >> 
>> >> It will have if you use a laser printer to create the transparencies. 
>> >> You must use an inkjet printer.
>> >> 
>> >> >
>> >> > The mesh method is mentioned - do you mean use a very fine mesh pattern
>> >> > for the solid ground plane? I'm not sure how to do this in Eagle or
>> >> > ExpressPCB programs. Sounds like a good idea - mesh fine enough it
>> >> > "looks" solid on transfer?
>> >> 
>> >> It's more a "cross-hatch" pattern than a mesh, using, say, diagonal 
>> >> lines at right angles, with something like 10/10 mil lines. The Pulsonix 
>> >> software I use has a cross-hatch option for copper pour and power/ground 
>> >> planes.
>> >> 
>> >> Leon
>> >> -- 
>> >> Leon Heller
>> >> G1HSM
>> >>
>> >
>>
>

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