Homebrew PCBs

This has become a humpling experience!
You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on my part.

First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.
I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I think.
Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner, polished with scotch brite pad. Toner did not transfer well and that is where I disvovered I had not properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was 9 to the inch instead of ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer thinner and went to my giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling the board. I set the 800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed knowing it would not be fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with the bigger shank did jus fine with it!
after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was going to be essential. Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?

Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle. The board bowed away a bit and the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put the paper in a soak bucket and did something else for a bit. When the paper separated not only had the fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board had copper blisters large and all over! I blame the board this time. It was likely over 30 years old.

Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different paper too. 

Comments, criticism and laughter invited... 

John Ferrell W8CCW

On 05/03/2012 20:24, John wrote:
  Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I
> wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper
> for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?

I use 0.7 mm or 0.8 mm for most parts, including ICs. I often use 0.6 mm 
for vias.

> Comments, criticism and laughter invited...

Try photo-etch, it's much easier.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

I bought this laminator, http://mobile.buy.com/ibuy/Product.aspx?sku=211236158 . $43 for the gbc h212 and get perfect toner transfers. Run it through 6-8 times and it comes out perfect. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2012, at 2:24 PM, "John" <jferrell13@...> wrote:

> This has become a humpling experience!
> You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on my part.
> 
> First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.
> I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I think.
> Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner, polished with scotch brite pad. Toner did not transfer well and that is where I disvovered I had not properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was 9 to the inch instead of ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer thinner and went to my giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling the board. I set the 800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed knowing it would not be fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with the bigger shank did jus fine with it!
> after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was going to be essential. Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?
> 
> Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle. The board bowed away a bit and the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put the paper in a soak bucket and did something else for a bit. When the paper separated not only had the fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board had copper blisters large and all over! I blame the board this time. It was likely over 30 years old.
> 
> Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different paper too. 
> 
> Comments, criticism and laughter invited... 
> 
> John Ferrell W8CCW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
>
> On 05/03/2012 20:24, John wrote:
>   Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I
> > wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper
> > for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?
> 
> I use 0.7 mm or 0.8 mm for most parts, including ICs. I often use 0.6 mm 
> for vias.
> 
> > Comments, criticism and laughter invited...
> 
> Try photo-etch, it's much easier.
> 
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>

I also use 0.8mm for most things like capacitors, resistors etc. You need 1.0mm for some diodes, TO-220 regulators and such. Some even more.

If you're ever unsure - check before you design! Measure the lead with  callipers if necessary. Quite annoying having a pad too small for a hole on an otherwise perfect board.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jferrell13@...> wrote:
>
> This has become a humpling experience!
> You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on my part.
> 
> First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.
> I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I think.
> Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner, polished with scotch brite pad. Toner did not transfer well and that is where I disvovered I had not properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was 9 to the inch instead of ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer thinner and went to my giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling the board. I set the 800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed knowing it would not be fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with the bigger shank did jus fine with it!
> after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was going to be essential. Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?
> 
> Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle. The board bowed away a bit and the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put the paper in a soak bucket and did something else for a bit. When the paper separated not only had the fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board had copper blisters large and all over! I blame the board this time. It was likely over 30 years old.
> 
> Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different paper too. 
> 
> Comments, criticism and laughter invited... 
> 
> John Ferrell W8CCW
>



The repeated failure to transfer your toner seems rather strange. Certainly it sounds like you have got the board clean enough. I found that for me, making it ridiculously clean wasn't really necessary.

The first time I tried was with an iron and I almost couldn't get the time short enough.

I tried what most people seemed to say online - Highest heat, press down for a couple of minutes, which resulted in my design spreading out and becoming very blobby - obviously too hot\too long! - I didn't move it around either - I messed it up even more when I tried that!


Gave up on the iron and now I use a modified laminator that runs at about 170 Degrees C. Works much better than the iron. I can send the board through 20 times and never see anything going 'blobby'


With the iron at a temperature that appears to have de-laminated the board, I think you should have at least got something transferred - like a blobby mess.  Then again maybe it was too hot and did something weird to the toner.

Have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironing#Recommended_ironing_temperatures and pick something around 170 Degrees. See if that helps.


If not, might be time to try a different laser printer? If you don't have access to another one, you could try a copy shop or something.

Hi!
Using a iron to do toner transfer successfully takes some experimentation!
You did not indicate the size of the board you are trying to make,But it is easier to do small boards 

with a iron..

I used a DRY iron ( No holes in the sole plate!) I found one in a discount housewares store for $10.
It worked better than my wife's iron.But you are really better off buying a laminator.
Check the website for laminator section and look at the user ratings..There are units that work ok for less than $60.

I found a High quality laminator on Ebay cheap by carefully scanning the listings and pouncing when the real 

good deal shows up..I got a $400 laminator for $75 plus shipping.. It can laminate boards over .065 inch.Thick., 

Use 1/32" board if you can the Epoxy glass dissipates heat too fast..Phenolic paper boards are ideal..

I get almost perfect transfers every time the boards look like I photo etched them..

OK anyway ,With a iron it is hard to get enough pressure on the board.
I found on the web that if you put a short wooden dowel under the board to present a pressure point.
When you iron the board Roley-poly fashion you get better pressure! 

Use good oven Mitts when you do this to keep the board under control.

Most important the board must be absolutely clean! I use Bar Keepers Friend or Oxalic acid powder.
I use Scotch Brite pads. But they come in different grits I get fine gray ones at Auto Paint stores.You may find this at
also at Pep Boys or Auto Zone also. The ones in the Super market are too coarse.
then I use Acetone to clean the board then rinse with water.. If the water lays like a sheet on the board ,you are good to go..
Don't touch the boards with your bare fingers wear plastic gloves.

Regard

Mike



________________________________

 From: John <jferrell13@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 8:24 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Failures
 

  
This has become a humpling experience!
You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on my part.

First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.
I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I think.
Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner, polished with scotch brite pad. Toner did not transfer well and that is where I disvovered I had not properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was 9 to the inch instead of ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer thinner and went to my giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling the board. I set the 800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed knowing it would not be fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with the bigger shank did jus fine with it!
after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was going to be essential. Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?

Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle. The board bowed away a bit and the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put the paper in a soak bucket and did something else for a bit. When the paper separated not only had the fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board had copper blisters large and all over! I blame the board this time. It was likely over 30 years old.

Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different paper too. 

Comments, criticism and laughter invited... 

John Ferrell W8CCW


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When you say "polished" it makes me think of a shiny, perfectly smooth
surface.  I tend to rough my boards up a bit using high grit sandpaper.  My
logic is that it'll help the toner bite.  Of course, after roughing it up,
it's important to clean it so that there are no bits of copper dust left.

I've had good luck using a $30 scotch laminator from Walmart.  I do 5-10
passes after the machine's been left to warm up for 15 minutes.

If nothing seems to work, I'd try printing using a different printer/toner.
 It's just speculation, but maybe the toner formula isn't as good as others
for clinging.

Sent from my iPad

On 2012-03-05, at 2:09 PM, michael tenore <wb2lcw@yahoo.com> wrote:



Hi!
Using a iron to do toner transfer successfully takes some experimentation!
You did not indicate the size of the board you are trying to make,But it is
easier to do small boards

with a iron..

I used a DRY iron ( No holes in the sole plate!) I found one in a discount
housewares store for $10.
It worked better than my wife's iron.But you are really better off buying a
laminator.
Check the website for laminator section and look at the user ratings..There
are units that work ok for less than $60.

I found a High quality laminator on Ebay cheap by carefully scanning the
listings and pouncing when the real

good deal shows up..I got a $400 laminator for $75 plus shipping.. It can
laminate boards over .065 inch.Thick.,

Use 1/32" board if you can the Epoxy glass dissipates heat too
fast..Phenolic paper boards are ideal..

I get almost perfect transfers every time the boards look like I photo
etched them..

OK anyway ,With a iron it is hard to get enough pressure on the board.
I found on the web that if you put a short wooden dowel under the board to
present a pressure point.
When you iron the board Roley-poly fashion you get better pressure!

Use good oven Mitts when you do this to keep the board under control.

Most important the board must be absolutely clean! I use Bar Keepers Friend
or Oxalic acid powder.
I use Scotch Brite pads. But they come in different grits I get fine gray
ones at Auto Paint stores.You may find this at
also at Pep Boys or Auto Zone also. The ones in the Super market are too
coarse.
then I use Acetone to clean the board then rinse with water.. If the water
lays like a sheet on the board ,you are good to go..
Don't touch the boards with your bare fingers wear plastic gloves.

Regard

Mike

________________________________

From: John <jferrell13@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 8:24 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Failures



This has become a humpling experience!
You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on my
part.

First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP
P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.
I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I think.
Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with
DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an
Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to
SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a
Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner,
polished with scotch brite pad. Toner did not transfer well and that is
where I disvovered I had not properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was
9 to the inch instead of ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer
thinner and went to my giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling
the board. I set the 800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed
knowing it would not be fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with
the bigger shank did jus fine with it!
after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was going
to be essential. Project under planning... The chip fit fine but I wonder
about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper for pads. IS
1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?

Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided
board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more
heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it
around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I
heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the
paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle. The board bowed away a bit and
the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put the paper in a soak bucket and
did something else for a bit. When the paper separated not only had the
fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board had copper blisters large
and all over! I blame the board this time. It was likely over 30 years old.

Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not
blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side
board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use
double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different
paper too.

Comments, criticism and laughter invited...

John Ferrell W8CCW

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:24:16 -0000, you wrote:

>This has become a humpling experience!
>You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on my part.
>
>First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.

Either board not clean enough or not enough heat, unless there's a
problem with the magazine paper.

>I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I think.
>Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner, polished with scotch brite pad. 

I'd have used the scotch brite first (I use Bon-ami, then 1200 grit
sandpaper, then acetone).  I've also tried right on a dirty board, and
it works surprisingly well.

>Toner did not transfer well and that is where I disvovered I had not properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was 9 to the inch instead of ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer thinner and went to my giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling the board. I set the 800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed knowing it would not be fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with the bigger shank did jus fine with it!
>after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was going to be essential. Project under planning... 

Know that one.  I still suspect not enough heat.

>The chip fit fine but I wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to leave enough copper for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?

Nope.  I use #70 for 1/4 watt resistors, #68 for slightly larger
parts, #62 or so for dips, and larger drills for things like switches,
stake in terminals, and the like.  

In general, I try to match the size of the drill to the lead.  I'll
drill a hole and see if it works well enough, then reserve that size.
make the pad suitably large (larger than stock, for example, for hand
soldering).

>
>Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle. 

Too hot.

>The board bowed away a bit and the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put the paper in a soak bucket and did something else for a bit. When the paper separated not only had the fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board had copper blisters large and all over! I blame the board this time. It was likely over 30 years old.

You're supposed to make the toner tacky, not liquid.  Too much heat
can melt the epoxy, which it sounds like you did.  Have you considered
a GBC creative laminator?  Mine works well enough for thin boards, but
I do run through 6 to 8 times.  (say 4 up and 4 down), 

>
>Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different paper too. 

I use thin (0.023) board.  It does bow after all of the processing,
but when epoxied together, and pressed flat, stays remarkably flat.

It does not bow badly.

>
>Comments, criticism and laughter invited... 

I think you're overdoing a bit of the heating.  Irons are not optimal,
and laminators seem to be much better.  Good arguments have been put
forth for not using Tshirt presses.

Harvey


>
>John Ferrell W8CCW

Another tip:  concerning the tedious process of drilling, it won't be as
rugged as properly drilling the holes, but you can always try to surface
mount your components.  That is, you could bend the prongs on your 40 pin
dip so that they lay flat on the board and then just solder 'em on.

Sent from my iPad

On 2012-03-05, at 4:58 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:



On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:24:16 -0000, you wrote:

>This has become a humpling experience!
>You folks have made this sound too easy, or maybe senility has set in on
my part.
>
>First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP
P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.

Either board not clean enough or not enough heat, unless there's a
problem with the magazine paper.

>I used really thin double sided board, Electronic Goldmine vendor , I
think.
>Second try:This time I ordered paper from DigiKey. Made a board with
DesignSpark PCB package. It is pretty simple, just cross over from an
Arduino to a prototype board with SIP's & some RJ-45 Female connectors to
SIP's to stick on a Prototype Board. All on about a 3X5 paper. I used a
Double sided board that I had in my junk. Washed in Lacquer thinner,
polished with scotch brite pad.

I'd have used the scotch brite first (I use Bon-ami, then 1200 grit
sandpaper, then acetone). I've also tried right on a dirty board, and
it works surprisingly well.

>Toner did not transfer well and that is where I disvovered I had not
properly scaled the paper. The pin spacing was 9 to the inch instead of
ten. OK, so I washed the toner off with Lacquer thinner and went to my
giant Chinese milling machine to check out drilling the board. I set the
800 pound machine up to run at max spindle speed knowing it would not be
fast enough. How about that! The 1 mm drill with the bigger shank did jus
fine with it!
>after drilling 40 pins for a DIP chip I realized computer control was
going to be essential. Project under planning...

Know that one. I still suspect not enough heat.

>The chip fit fine but I wonder about the drill size. It may be too big to
leave enough copper for pads. IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL
USE?

Nope. I use #70 for 1/4 watt resistors, #68 for slightly larger
parts, #62 or so for dips, and larger drills for things like switches,
stake in terminals, and the like.

In general, I try to match the size of the drill to the lead. I'll
drill a hole and see if it works well enough, then reserve that size.
make the pad suitably large (larger than stock, for example, for hand
soldering).

>
>Third try: I got the scaling right and tried again with some single sided
board that I had in my treasure collection. I figured that I needed more
heat so I cranked up the heat on the iron to Linen. I did not move it
around much but I did push down pretty hard. After about 3 or 4 minutes I
heard a "pop" sound and figured I had broke something in the iron. As the
paper cooled down it turned kind of brittle.

Too hot.

>The board bowed away a bit and the stiff paper raised up in spots. I put
the paper in a soak bucket and did something else for a bit. When the paper
separated not only had the fusing failed to transfer well but the PC board
had copper blisters large and all over! I blame the board this time. It was
likely over 30 years old.

You're supposed to make the toner tacky, not liquid. Too much heat
can melt the epoxy, which it sounds like you did. Have you considered
a GBC creative laminator? Mine works well enough for thin boards, but
I do run through 6 to 8 times. (say 4 up and 4 down),

>
>Fourth try: I ordered some fresh, modern board from Jameco. It did not
blister, but did not transfer as well as expected. I think the single side
board is going to bow any way I do it I am thinking I need to just use
double sided and etch the excess away. Maybe I need to try some different
paper too.

I use thin (0.023) board. It does bow after all of the processing,
but when epoxied together, and pressed flat, stays remarkably flat.

It does not bow badly.

>
>Comments, criticism and laughter invited...

I think you're overdoing a bit of the heating. Irons are not optimal,
and laminators seem to be much better. Good arguments have been put
forth for not using Tshirt presses.

Harvey

>
>John Ferrell W8CCW

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jferrell13@...> wrote:
 First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.

I started with a iron but very quickly changed to a laminator..  (a used,  ancient, all metal GBC laminator from eBay)

I get good results up to 150mm wide, any wider and the centre tends not to stick as well due to less pressure on the rollers



 IS 1 mm THE RIGHT SIZE FOR PC BOARDS GENERAL USE?

I use 0.8mm solid carbide drills in a CNC micro mill at about 20 holes per minute...
I can drill faster (about 40 holes per minute manually with a proxxon mini drill suspended from a pulley with a counterweight,
I'm just upgrading my micro mill controller so i can hit 60 holes per minute  ..  slow by commercial standards, but fast enough for me..

Bigger holes I redrill manually with the proxxon..

+1.

I am so glad I don't do toner transfer any more!

Paul G4DCV
>
>
> Try photo-etch, it's much easier.
>
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have ordered the gbc h212 Laminator and  0.7 mm drill bits.
I have also used a spell checker on "humbling"!

I was using a steam iron before with no water so I bypassed the need for a new standard iron. That reminded me that the earlier more successful transfers were made with a "covering" iron that I use to apply shrink covering on model airplanes.

Thanks for the help!
I will report back. 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "chris" <chris@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jferrell13@> wrote:
>  First try: Printed a sample from some packages example, magazine paper, HP P1102W Laser printer. Not too bad, did not fuse well to board though.
> 
> I started with a iron but very quickly changed to a laminator..  (a used,  ancient, all metal GBC laminator from eBay)
> 

John Ferrell W8CCW

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jferrell13@...> wrote:
>
> This has become a humpling experience!

I use acetone to clean my boards.  Most types of paint/lacquer thinner, mineral spirits, etc seem to leave an oily film.  That would be my first guess as to why you can't get the toner to stick.  My general procedure is to first use a 00 steel wool-like material to clean off the oxidation and rough up the copper (it's not actually steel wool but some composite), then I use acetone to wipe it clean.

I then print using HP high resolution toner on glossy old magazine paper.  I find it needs a temperature of about 260-270F as the sweet spot for transfer. That is about the middle heat setting on my iron, verified with my thermometer. Most people recommend way too high a setting but maybe it depends on the specific toner and/or iron used.  When using an iron I put very little pressure on it because too much that causes the toner to deform.  I mostly use just the very front tip end of the iron along with the edge of the iron to try to get every place on the board.  I use a piece of wood under the PCB when ironing.  The wood doesn't pull away much heat and it keeps the board flat.

That works pretty good but I find using an iron can be difficult to get even pressure on every single part of the board.  Instead I'm experimenting with using a hotplate (or normal non-inductive electric stove) with an 1/8" aluminium plate on top.  I first tack the paper with toner on the PCB using an iron (just a quick pass to make it stick in place) then I put the PCB on the hotplate and once it reaches the correct temperature* I press the toner on with a piece of neoprene (I need to make a neoprene roller).  Because the neoprene is soft it helps me press evenly around the board and prevents me from putting too much pressure so I get perfect sharp traces.  I spend a good amount of time pressing around everywhere on the board.  I haven't perfected this technique because I just started using it but I'm getting close and it's much easier to get 100% transfers than using an iron.

* I find that I can't get a reading from bare aluminium with my IR thermometer so I check the temperature of the PCB board itself.

----

0.8mm is fairly standard for most holes.
1.0mm for "normal" larger parts like some diodes, headers, etc.

Those two are by far the most common for me.

Then 1.2mm and larger for large (power) headers and such.

If you use PCB software then you should be able to check the exact hole size in there.

I use a small drill press at the maximum speed I can get it to run (only about 1700 RPM).  With a slow steady hand and a firmly held board it works fine.

I agree that drilling holes is a huge pain (especially hard to aim perfectly in the center while viewing at an angle) which is the reason I try to do everything surface mount if I can.

Dev