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Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by tda7000

Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 

(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)


I used this photoresist film: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Dry-Film-Photoresist-Sheets-for-DIY-PCB-6x8-q-/320735055777 which worked pretty nicely, although it took me a couple of goes to get it on the copper without bubbles!

Some UV LEDs on a sheet of protoboard for the exposure lamp, and to test out different spacings etc (Thanks to Chris for the LEDs!) - hopefully I can make a proper exposure box once (if?) I get the other issues sorted.

I used my Canon iP2000 inkjet printer and inkjet transparency sheets to make the transparency, unfortunately it did not come out as good as I had hoped, as solid black fills had many quite light parts in them when held up to the light, and when exposed left a speckled pattern on the developed board. 

I used a solution of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) to do developing.

Today I tried with a Laser printer but again, holding the transparency up to the light I see too many light areas. I haven't tried exposing using that printout but I feel it will have a similar problem to the previous one.


What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the UV process?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Bill Maxwell

It might be worth printing say two of film, fix them together to 
hopefully make the black traces and fills more dense, and exposing 
through that. Registration will need to be watched but should be manageable.

Bill

On 22/02/2012 1:27 PM, tda7000 wrote:
> Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board
>
> (because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
>
>
> I used this photoresist film: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Dry-Film-Photoresist-Sheets-for-DIY-PCB-6x8-q-/320735055777 which worked pretty nicely, although it took me a couple of goes to get it on the copper without bubbles!
>
> Some UV LEDs on a sheet of protoboard for the exposure lamp, and to test out different spacings etc (Thanks to Chris for the LEDs!) - hopefully I can make a proper exposure box once (if?) I get the other issues sorted.
>
> I used my Canon iP2000 inkjet printer and inkjet transparency sheets to make the transparency, unfortunately it did not come out as good as I had hoped, as solid black fills had many quite light parts in them when held up to the light, and when exposed left a speckled pattern on the developed board.
>
> I used a solution of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) to do developing.
>
> Today I tried with a Laser printer but again, holding the transparency up to the light I see too many light areas. I haven't tried exposing using that printout but I feel it will have a similar problem to the previous one.
>
>
> What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the UV process?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Harvey White

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:27:45 -0000, you wrote:

>Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 
>
>(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
>

I figured that one out, or at least, got it very close to right.

use half thickness board, prepare each side individually.  Make sure
that there are three alignment holes, each at a corner, leaving out
one corner (keeps the board from being reversed).

I use map push pins and a slightly smaller drill.  You want a thick
pin so it does not get pushed side to side by misalignment.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>I used this photoresist film: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Dry-Film-Photoresist-Sheets-for-DIY-PCB-6x8-q-/320735055777 which worked pretty nicely, although it took me a couple of goes to get it on the copper without bubbles!
>
>Some UV LEDs on a sheet of protoboard for the exposure lamp, and to test out different spacings etc (Thanks to Chris for the LEDs!) - hopefully I can make a proper exposure box once (if?) I get the other issues sorted.
>
>I used my Canon iP2000 inkjet printer and inkjet transparency sheets to make the transparency, unfortunately it did not come out as good as I had hoped, as solid black fills had many quite light parts in them when held up to the light, and when exposed left a speckled pattern on the developed board. 
>
>I used a solution of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) to do developing.
>
>Today I tried with a Laser printer but again, holding the transparency up to the light I see too many light areas. I haven't tried exposing using that printout but I feel it will have a similar problem to the previous one.
>
>
>What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the UV process?
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by DJ Delorie

In cases like this, you really should consider buying a transmission
step wedge.  I got a stouffer 21-step wedge for $7 plus s&h and it
REALLY tells you how well (and accurately) your process is.  For
example, my inkjet gives me an 8-step range, but my laser printer only
gives a 3-step range.  Even the worst inkjet film I can print is going
to be better than the laser printer.

I found that using "standard" software and films won't give you truly
opaque prints.  I ended up writing my own printer driver just for films,
and buying Jetstar films (perhaps anything with "ultra fast drying" in
the name should work, but YMMV).  The specially coated films let me put
much more ink than standard software would, resulting in a much darker
film.

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell@...> wrote:
>
> It might be worth printing say two of film, fix them together to 
> hopefully make the black traces and fills more dense, and exposing 
> through that. Registration will need to be watched but should be manageable.
> 
> Bill

Of course! I had read about that online but must have forgotten about that idea in all of the excitement...

But now I'm wondering, does that actually work OK? I think I recall something about it possibly causing blurry edges because the 2nd layer is not right up against the copper.

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:27:45 -0000, you wrote:
> 
> >Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 
> >
> >(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
> >
> 
> I figured that one out, or at least, got it very close to right.
> 
> use half thickness board, prepare each side individually.  Make sure
> that there are three alignment holes, each at a corner, leaving out
> one corner (keeps the board from being reversed).
> 
> I use map push pins and a slightly smaller drill.  You want a thick
> pin so it does not get pushed side to side by misalignment.
> 
> Harvey

Why half-thickness board? How do you get the board into a laminator with push-pins in it? I am not sure I understand how this would work, can you please explain?

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> In cases like this, you really should consider buying a transmission
> step wedge.  I got a stouffer 21-step wedge for $7 plus s&h and it
> REALLY tells you how well (and accurately) your process is.  For
> example, my inkjet gives me an 8-step range, but my laser printer only
> gives a 3-step range.  Even the worst inkjet film I can print is going
> to be better than the laser printer.
> 
> I found that using "standard" software and films won't give you truly
> opaque prints.  I ended up writing my own printer driver just for films,
> and buying Jetstar films (perhaps anything with "ultra fast drying" in
> the name should work, but YMMV).  The specially coated films let me put
> much more ink than standard software would, resulting in a much darker
> film.
>

I didn't mention it before but I did a rudimentary test by covering the board with a credit card and exposing a little bit every minute for 7 minutes (chose that time as I saw a site where someone who made a UV box with LEDs say 7 minutes was the maximum they could go before overexposure)

It seemed that 1-3 minutes or so was underexposed, anything over that was good but had the speckling problem.

I tried putting the printer control panel on darkest. It didn't seem to make any difference. The film is designed for inkjets and appears to have a special coating.

A custom printer-driver sounds great, I don't suppose yours is available and is for Canons?

I wonder though if I somehow could force the printer to print black by mixing the colour cartridge it would be like getting 3 layers of artwork, from the 3 different inks. Not sure how to do that though.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Jeff Heiss

I think Harvey is saying expose, develop, and etch the top board first for
the top layer.  Then do the same for the second board for the bottom layer.
Lastly glue/laminate the two boards together.

 

My question is, what is being used to glue the boards together?  Epoxy,
repreg?  Any good recommendations for a glue that is easy to spread over a
whole board, low cost, and available?  Prepreg does not seem to fit the
available part.  

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of tda7000
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:03 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for
UV process

 

  

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:27:45 -0000, you wrote:
> 
> >Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 
> >
> >(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a
double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
> >
> 
> I figured that one out, or at least, got it very close to right.
> 
> use half thickness board, prepare each side individually. Make sure
> that there are three alignment holes, each at a corner, leaving out
> one corner (keeps the board from being reversed).
> 
> I use map push pins and a slightly smaller drill. You want a thick
> pin so it does not get pushed side to side by misalignment.
> 
> Harvey

Why half-thickness board? How do you get the board into a laminator with
push-pins in it? I am not sure I understand how this would work, can you
please explain?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Jeff Heiss

DJ, I know you wrote your printer driver for running in Linux.  Is it
possible to port it to Windows someday?

 

Jeff

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of DJ Delorie
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:00 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for
UV process

 

  


In cases like this, you really should consider buying a transmission
step wedge. I got a stouffer 21-step wedge for $7 plus s&h and it
REALLY tells you how well (and accurately) your process is. For
example, my inkjet gives me an 8-step range, but my laser printer only
gives a 3-step range. Even the worst inkjet film I can print is going
to be better than the laser printer.

I found that using "standard" software and films won't give you truly
opaque prints. I ended up writing my own printer driver just for films,
and buying Jetstar films (perhaps anything with "ultra fast drying" in
the name should work, but YMMV). The specially coated films let me put
much more ink than standard software would, resulting in a much darker
film.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Bill Maxwell

I have only used the technique once and it worked OK. I didn't notice 
any blurred edges although it wasn't a very complex pcb.

Bill

On 22/02/2012 3:58 PM, tda7000 wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bill Maxwell<wrmaxwell@...>  wrote:
>> It might be worth printing say two of film, fix them together to
>> hopefully make the black traces and fills more dense, and exposing
>> through that. Registration will need to be watched but should be manageable.
>>
>> Bill
> Of course! I had read about that online but must have forgotten about that idea in all of the excitement...
>
> But now I'm wondering, does that actually work OK? I think I recall something about it possibly causing blurry edges because the 2nd layer is not right up against the copper.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean.
It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by John Anhalt

I use a HP4101 printer and the transparencies are also speckled.  I go over them completely with a black, dry erase marker (Expo brand) on the toner side.  Let them dry, they wipe off with soft tissue like Kleenex.  The black pigment is retained only in the speckles.

I wrote a more detailed procedure a few months ago, but that is the gist of it.

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tda7000 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:10 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process


    
  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
  >
  > 
  > In cases like this, you really should consider buying a transmission
  > step wedge. I got a stouffer 21-step wedge for $7 plus s&h and it
  > REALLY tells you how well (and accurately) your process is. For
  > example, my inkjet gives me an 8-step range, but my laser printer only
  > gives a 3-step range. Even the worst inkjet film I can print is going
  > to be better than the laser printer.
  > 
  > I found that using "standard" software and films won't give you truly
  > opaque prints. I ended up writing my own printer driver just for films,
  > and buying Jetstar films (perhaps anything with "ultra fast drying" in
  > the name should work, but YMMV). The specially coated films let me put
  > much more ink than standard software would, resulting in a much darker
  > film.
  >

  I didn't mention it before but I did a rudimentary test by covering the board with a credit card and exposing a little bit every minute for 7 minutes (chose that time as I saw a site where someone who made a UV box with LEDs say 7 minutes was the maximum they could go before overexposure)

  It seemed that 1-3 minutes or so was underexposed, anything over that was good but had the speckling problem.

  I tried putting the printer control panel on darkest. It didn't seem to make any difference. The film is designed for inkjets and appears to have a special coating.

  A custom printer-driver sounds great, I don't suppose yours is available and is for Canons?

  I wonder though if I somehow could force the printer to print black by mixing the colour cartridge it would be like getting 3 layers of artwork, from the 3 different inks. Not sure how to do that though.



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by David

I print onto tracing paper, [the type schools us] two times, i.e. two seperate prints, using a laserjet printer HP1018 with the plain paper setting,  stick double sided tape on the perimeter of one of the images, then use a light box to align the two images, carefully remove the protective film off the double sided tape, one side at a time, preventing the two images from moving out of line is a bit tricky but not impossible, and stick them together, for double sided boards i do this for both side, i.e. 4 prints, then i align the two "double" images and form an envelope, again using double sided tape, i also put a small strip of card along two sides of one of the images like "X" and "Y" in a graph before making the envelope, this is used to make sure the PCB sits in the right place, I leave one side open, then I slide the PCB into the envelope, i have found registration for the two sides to be perfectly adequate, even for complex layouts, I expose each side for 6 minutes, probably too long but the tracing paper isn't totally transparent, and over exposure doesn't seem to affect the end result. I use a home made UV box, 100 5mm 3000 mcd UV leds on a 6" x 8" PCB board that has a sheet of flexible mirror stuck to it, the box has a glass top, the amount of UV the glass prevents from reaching the PCB is negligable, or if this a real concern use clear acrylic sheet 3mm, also works just fine, i keep the PCB and image firmly pressed against the glass with a heavy book, then cover the whole lot with a piece of dark cloth to avoid looking at the UV light, then develop in the normal way, I drill before etching, this way any registration errors can be corrected with a etch resist pen, no problems!!

hope this helps.

David  

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 
> 
> (because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
> 
> 
> I used this photoresist film: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Dry-Film-Photoresist-Sheets-for-DIY-PCB-6x8-q-/320735055777 which worked pretty nicely, although it took me a couple of goes to get it on the copper without bubbles!
> 
> Some UV LEDs on a sheet of protoboard for the exposure lamp, and to test out different spacings etc (Thanks to Chris for the LEDs!) - hopefully I can make a proper exposure box once (if?) I get the other issues sorted.
> 
> I used my Canon iP2000 inkjet printer and inkjet transparency sheets to make the transparency, unfortunately it did not come out as good as I had hoped, as solid black fills had many quite light parts in them when held up to the light, and when exposed left a speckled pattern on the developed board. 
> 
> I used a solution of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) to do developing.
> 
> Today I tried with a Laser printer but again, holding the transparency up to the light I see too many light areas. I haven't tried exposing using that printout but I feel it will have a similar problem to the previous one.
> 
> 
> What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the UV process?
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Leon Heller

On 22/02/2012 02:27, tda7000 wrote:
> Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board

> What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the
> UV process?

I get excellent results with an HP 9540 inkjet and Mega Electronics 
JetStar Premium film.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Leon Heller

On 22/02/2012 05:10, tda7000 wrote:

> I didn't mention it before but I did a rudimentary test by covering the
> board with a credit card and exposing a little bit every minute for 7
> minutes (chose that time as I saw a site where someone who made a UV box
> with LEDs say 7 minutes was the maximum they could go before overexposure)

That was the technique I used with my UV exposure unit (tubes). It's 
basically the same technique that was used by photographers for many 
years, when using an enlarger.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by joe M

Try vellum paper.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 9:27 PM, tda7000 <Tda7000@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board
>
> (because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a
> double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
>
> I used this photoresist film:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Dry-Film-Photoresist-Sheets-for-DIY-PCB-6x8-q-/320735055777which worked pretty nicely, although it took me a couple of goes to get it
> on the copper without bubbles!
>
> Some UV LEDs on a sheet of protoboard for the exposure lamp, and to test
> out different spacings etc (Thanks to Chris for the LEDs!) - hopefully I
> can make a proper exposure box once (if?) I get the other issues sorted.
>
> I used my Canon iP2000 inkjet printer and inkjet transparency sheets to
> make the transparency, unfortunately it did not come out as good as I had
> hoped, as solid black fills had many quite light parts in them when held up
> to the light, and when exposed left a speckled pattern on the developed
> board.
>
> I used a solution of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) to do developing.
>
> Today I tried with a Laser printer but again, holding the transparency up
> to the light I see too many light areas. I haven't tried exposing using
> that printout but I feel it will have a similar problem to the previous one.
>
> What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the UV
> process?
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Harvey White

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 05:03:07 -0000, you wrote:

>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:27:45 -0000, you wrote:
>> 
>> >Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 
>> >
>> >(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
>> >
>> 
>> I figured that one out, or at least, got it very close to right.
>> 
>> use half thickness board, prepare each side individually.  Make sure
>> that there are three alignment holes, each at a corner, leaving out
>> one corner (keeps the board from being reversed).
>> 
>> I use map push pins and a slightly smaller drill.  You want a thick
>> pin so it does not get pushed side to side by misalignment.
>> 
>> Harvey
>
>Why half-thickness board? How do you get the board into a laminator with push-pins in it? I am not sure I understand how this would work, can you please explain?

Half thickness board:  I can get 0.023 board, which will get to 0.46
board when made double sided, which is stiff enough.  If I make a
double sided board that has to be 0.063, I use a different method,
detailed in some other posts, (double sided board, one side at a time,
protect the inactive side).

making double sided boards:

The boards are treated completely like single sided boards.  The
material is single sided.  

Make and etch the boards.

Do not drill anything but the registration holes.

Do not trim the boards.

put masking tape over the surface with the exception of the
registration holes, this keeps epoxy off the surface if it "leaks".

Using 1 hour setup epoxy (trust me, same eventual to full strength
time, and that's what you want anyway), put epoxy on one board.

Put the other board on top and align using the registration holes. Put
some tape to keep the boards in alignment with the pins in.

Remove the pins.

Place between two heavy and flat objects.  I use ceramic floor tiles.
Put weight on top of that to keep the boards flat while curing.

Leave for 24 hours (or so).

Remove tape, trim, drill as needed.  

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Harvey White

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:12:34 -0500, you wrote:

>I think Harvey is saying expose, develop, and etch the top board first for
>the top layer.  Then do the same for the second board for the bottom layer.
>Lastly glue/laminate the two boards together.
>
> 
>
>My question is, what is being used to glue the boards together?  Epoxy,
>repreg?  Any good recommendations for a glue that is easy to spread over a
>whole board, low cost, and available?  Prepreg does not seem to fit the
>available part.  

I use 1 hour epoxy, in the "large" size.  Costs about 15 dollars or
so, you'll get a feeling of how much epoxy to use.  Too thin a coat
and you don't get full adhesion.  You want the 1 hour because doing a
number of boards can take longer than you think.  Same full strength
cure time for all varieties (24 hours).

Use old board trimmings to spread the epoxy, but make sure that you do
not contaminate the "new" epoxy with any old epoxy, apparently cures
much quicker than you thought.  Putting the masking tape on (avoid
transparent scotch tape) avoids epoxy fingerprints on the board.

I've tried:

1) superglue... works, but rather expensive and not as good as I might
like.

2) shorter curing epoxy... cures too quickly, rushed jobs....

have not tried:

1) carpet tape:  hard to position and I'd be worried about the glue
jamming and breaking the carbide bits

2) contact cement:  same as carpet tape.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of tda7000
>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:03 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for
>UV process
>
> 
>
>  
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:27:45 -0000, you wrote:
>> 
>> >Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board 
>> >
>> >(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a
>double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
>> >
>> 
>> I figured that one out, or at least, got it very close to right.
>> 
>> use half thickness board, prepare each side individually. Make sure
>> that there are three alignment holes, each at a corner, leaving out
>> one corner (keeps the board from being reversed).
>> 
>> I use map push pins and a slightly smaller drill. You want a thick
>> pin so it does not get pushed side to side by misalignment.
>> 
>> Harvey
>
>Why half-thickness board? How do you get the board into a laminator with
>push-pins in it? I am not sure I understand how this would work, can you
>please explain?
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by David Mitchell

How do you do your vias with this scheme? soldered bits of wire?

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:12:34 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >I think Harvey is saying expose, develop, and etch the top board first for
> >the top layer. Then do the same for the second board for the bottom layer.
> >Lastly glue/laminate the two boards together.
> >
> >
> >
> >My question is, what is being used to glue the boards together? Epoxy,
> >repreg? Any good recommendations for a glue that is easy to spread over a
> >whole board, low cost, and available? Prepreg does not seem to fit the
> >available part.
>
> I use 1 hour epoxy, in the "large" size. Costs about 15 dollars or
> so, you'll get a feeling of how much epoxy to use. Too thin a coat
> and you don't get full adhesion. You want the 1 hour because doing a
> number of boards can take longer than you think. Same full strength
> cure time for all varieties (24 hours).
>
> Use old board trimmings to spread the epoxy, but make sure that you do
> not contaminate the "new" epoxy with any old epoxy, apparently cures
> much quicker than you thought. Putting the masking tape on (avoid
> transparent scotch tape) avoids epoxy fingerprints on the board.
>
> I've tried:
>
> 1) superglue... works, but rather expensive and not as good as I might
> like.
>
> 2) shorter curing epoxy... cures too quickly, rushed jobs....
>
> have not tried:
>
> 1) carpet tape: hard to position and I'd be worried about the glue
> jamming and breaking the carbide bits
>
> 2) contact cement: same as carpet tape.
>
> Harvey
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@...m
> ]
> >On Behalf Of tda7000
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:03 AM
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>
> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for
> >UV process
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> ><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , Harvey White <madyn@...>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:27:45 -0000, you wrote:
> >>
> >> >Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board
> >> >
> >> >(because I have nightmares from trying to align paper properly for a
> >double-sided board with the laminator, ha ha)
> >> >
> >>
> >> I figured that one out, or at least, got it very close to right.
> >>
> >> use half thickness board, prepare each side individually. Make sure
> >> that there are three alignment holes, each at a corner, leaving out
> >> one corner (keeps the board from being reversed).
> >>
> >> I use map push pins and a slightly smaller drill. You want a thick
> >> pin so it does not get pushed side to side by misalignment.
> >>
> >> Harvey
> >
> >Why half-thickness board? How do you get the board into a laminator with
> >push-pins in it? I am not sure I understand how this would work, can you
> >please explain?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
>
> On 22/02/2012 02:27, tda7000 wrote:
> > Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board
> 
> > What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the
> > UV process?
> 
> I get excellent results with an HP 9540 inkjet and Mega Electronics 
> JetStar Premium film.
> 
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM

Is that printer model number correct? I can't seem to find it anywhere online.

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by tda7000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Anhalt" <janhalt@...> wrote:
>
> I use a HP4101 printer and the transparencies are also speckled.  I go over them completely with a black, dry erase marker (Expo brand) on the toner side.  Let them dry, they wipe off with soft tissue like Kleenex.  The black pigment is retained only in the speckles.
> 
> I wrote a more detailed procedure a few months ago, but that is the gist of it.
> 
> John

I just dug up an old whiteboard marker and gave this a shot... and it worked quite well!

Before, the toner was very easy to see light through, now it's very black.

Funny thing was, the marker was almost empty and wasn't really even giving out black ink. Yet it still caused the toner to darken... I see these things smell pretty strongly so I am guessing something other than the black ink may be responsible for causing some kind of reaction with the toner.

I also noticed that rubbing too much made holes in the toner. I wonder if you could extract the ink and spray it on the toner instead, causing the effect but without having to physically push on the image?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Leon Heller

On 22/02/2012 20:40, tda7000 wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > On 22/02/2012 02:27, tda7000 wrote:
>  > > Recently I had my first try at a UV-exposed board
>  >
>  > > What does everyone else do to get their printouts opaque enough for the
>  > > UV process?
>  >
>  > I get excellent results with an HP 9540 inkjet and Mega Electronics
>  > JetStar Premium film.
>  >
>  > Leon
>  > --
>  > Leon Heller
>  > G1HSM
>
> Is that printer model number correct? I can't seem to find it anywhere
> online.

Sorry. It should be HP 5940.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by Boman33

I saw an ad for a Chinese company marketing a device & liquid that a
transparency could be put through and it would come out with very high
contrast, opaque blacks.  I do not know what the liquid was.

Bertho

 

From tda7000   Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 15:45



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "John Anhalt" <janhalt@...>
wrote:
>
> I use a HP4101 printer and the transparencies are also speckled. I go over
them completely with a black, dry erase marker (Expo brand) on the toner
side. Let them dry, they wipe off with soft tissue like Kleenex. The black
pigment is retained only in the speckles.
> 
> I wrote a more detailed procedure a few months ago, but that is the gist
of it.
> 
> John

I just dug up an old whiteboard marker and gave this a shot... and it worked
quite well!

Before, the toner was very easy to see light through, now it's very black.

Funny thing was, the marker was almost empty and wasn't really even giving
out black ink. Yet it still caused the toner to darken... I see these things
smell pretty strongly so I am guessing something other than the black ink
may be responsible for causing some kind of reaction with the toner.

I also noticed that rubbing too much made holes in the toner. I wonder if
you could extract the ink and spray it on the toner instead, causing the
effect but without having to physically push on the image?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-22 by cunningfellow

I have a can of this

http://www.gcctech.com.au/products/spray/index.html

Works well on my HP4000 series laserjet.

Can't comment on other printers.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33" <boman33@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I saw an ad for a Chinese company marketing a device & liquid that a
> transparency could be put through and it would come out with very high
> contrast, opaque blacks.  I do not know what the liquid was.
> 
> Bertho
> 
>  
> 
> From tda7000   Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 15:45
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "John Anhalt" <janhalt@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I use a HP4101 printer and the transparencies are also speckled. I go over
> them completely with a black, dry erase marker (Expo brand) on the toner
> side. Let them dry, they wipe off with soft tissue like Kleenex. The black
> pigment is retained only in the speckles.
> > 
> > I wrote a more detailed procedure a few months ago, but that is the gist
> of it.
> > 
> > John
> 
> I just dug up an old whiteboard marker and gave this a shot... and it worked
> quite well!
> 
> Before, the toner was very easy to see light through, now it's very black.
> 
> Funny thing was, the marker was almost empty and wasn't really even giving
> out black ink. Yet it still caused the toner to darken... I see these things
> smell pretty strongly so I am guessing something other than the black ink
> may be responsible for causing some kind of reaction with the toner.
> 
> I also noticed that rubbing too much made holes in the toner. I wonder if
> you could extract the ink and spray it on the toner instead, causing the
> effect but without having to physically push on the image?
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by DJ Delorie

"tda7000" <Tda7000@...> writes:
> I didn't mention it before but I did a rudimentary test by covering
> the board with a credit card and exposing a little bit every minute
> for 7 minutes (chose that time as I saw a site where someone who made
> a UV box with LEDs say 7 minutes was the maximum they could go before
> overexposure)

My UV LED box exposure is about 5 minutes.

> A custom printer-driver sounds great, I don't suppose yours is available and is for Canons?

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/pbm2escp2.zip

> I wonder though if I somehow could force the printer to print black by
> mixing the colour cartridge it would be like getting 3 layers of
> artwork, from the 3 different inks. Not sure how to do that though.

Depends on the ink and print head.  I find the black is sufficiently
dark if you can put enough down, and only yellow has any UV blocking of
the other colors.  Cyan and magenta are a waste of time for UV.  Of
course, this is with my inks (claria); others vary.  Plus you have to
carefully align the various print heads to get the ink in the right
spots.

Remember, UV doesn't care about the colors you see!  It only cares about
the UV transmission, which does not always correspond to any visible
transmission.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by DJ Delorie

"tda7000" <Tda7000@...> writes:
> I didn't mention it before but I did a rudimentary test by covering
> the board with a credit card and exposing a little bit every minute
> for 7 minutes

FYI using a transmission step wedge is doing the same thing as this,
except it's calibrated.  Since the films tell you the step number
target, it means you can get it "dead on" in one test exposure.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by DJ Delorie

"Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> writes:
> DJ, I know you wrote your printer driver for running in Linux.  Is it
> possible to port it to Windows someday?

It just reads one file and produces another, it will run just fine on
Windows.  Or DOS.  Or Mac.  Probably on anything.  The tricky part is
sending that output file to the printer without Windows getting in the
way, if you can (for example) COPY FILE.ESC LPT1: and have it send as-is
you'll be fine.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by DJ Delorie

"Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> writes:
> I think Harvey is saying expose, develop, and etch the top board first for
> the top layer.  Then do the same for the second board for the bottom layer.
> Lastly glue/laminate the two boards together.

I do that too sometimes, depending on the board.

> My question is, what is being used to glue the boards together?

I use sheets of double sided sticky tape :-)

Not very stiff afterwards, but very easy to do.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by DJ Delorie

"tda7000" <Tda7000@...> writes:
>  and is for Canons?

Missed this the first time through.  My driver was written for the Epson
R280, which is a 2880 DPI "ESCp2" language printer.  I don't know what
Canon printers use, but if it's ESCp2 compatible with the same size
print head (90 jets, IIRC) my tool might work.  Even if it is, it might
have to be tweaked to get drop size right and a few other things.

The zip has sources, not binaries, so you can adapt if if you know what
your printer wants.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by Vicent Colomar Prats

Thanks for that!

2012/2/22 cunningfellow <andrewm1973@...>

> **
>
>
> I have a can of this
>
> http://www.gcctech.com.au/products/spray/index.html
>
> Works well on my HP4000 series laserjet.
>
> Can't comment on other printers.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-23 by Harvey White

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:18:48 -0500, you wrote:

>
>"Jeff Heiss" <jeff.heiss@...> writes:
>> I think Harvey is saying expose, develop, and etch the top board first for
>> the top layer.  Then do the same for the second board for the bottom layer.
>> Lastly glue/laminate the two boards together.
>
>I do that too sometimes, depending on the board.
>
>> My question is, what is being used to glue the boards together?
>
>I use sheets of double sided sticky tape :-)
>
>Not very stiff afterwards, but very easy to do.

I'd have thought that positioning it would have been horrible.

Now you can take a transparency (reverse printed), double side tape it
to the board, and you have a color silk screen.  You have to drill
through it, and it keeps you from using the top layer for any surface
mounted parts, but if you do single sided boards, it's very useful.

Harvey

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printers not making pattern opaque enough for UV process

2012-02-29 by DJ Delorie

Harvey White <madyn@...> writes:
>>I use sheets of double sided sticky tape :-)
>>
>>Not very stiff afterwards, but very easy to do.
>
> I'd have thought that positioning it would have been horrible.

Nah.  I drill two diagonally-opposite pins in both boards, and thread
wires through them.  They come together pretty accurately that way.

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