Homebrew PCBs

At a recent hamfest, I picked up (and not for much, so this was lucky)
a Wavemaster II and a Superfuser, both by Dynaart (eventually became
Pulsar).

Although I have not contacted Pulsar yet about these wonders, I do
have a few questions for anyone who has used them, and an observation
or so:

1) looks like the superfuser is very very slow, but will do one pass.
I've tried some PC board work with it so far, on 0.023 thick board,
and it seems to be happy.  One pass seems to do it, but there might be
some edge issues, more later.  I have the heat control set to about
3/4 of the maximum.  Haven't tried the green foil yet.  Anyone have
observations about this and also, has anyone tried thicker boards?  

I used uncleaned copper to give it the best worst case test, anything
else ought to be better.  The copier was a Canon all-in-one rather
than my normal HP 2200D.  Another experiment.

2) I have the wavemaster II, a wave etchant tank that uses persulfate
(only) etchant.  Any observations here?  I have tried it out, but
without etchant.  The wave tank seems to be a very good idea, but
while I'd love to use CUCL etchant (or peroxide/HCL) etchant, but I
hardly need it to be a wave tank if it's fresh, I think that the
stainless hardware (screws) and the aquarium pumps would never survive
the experience.

Which brings me to a secondary problem, there seems to be few people
selling sodium persulfate in the local (Orlando) area.  make that
none....  Anybody have a good source of tech grade sodium persulfate?
I'd considered ammonium persulfate, but it is both deliquescent and
perhaps unavailable.  The rough guess of the cost is about 3.50/lb,
and I'll need (I think) about 1 lb/gallon of water.  $150.00 for 50
pounds is a bit excessive.  We won't even discuss the lab or reagent
grade of this stuff....

3) observation, the old pulsar paper was white, and not blue.  If you
allow it to cool too long, it absorbs water and buckles.  The
superfuser is very slow, so you have to almost immediately dunk the
board into the water bath.  On the other hand, it seems to be doing a
good job so far....

Harvey

Hi Harvey,

I use the Green Foil before I etch and it seems to fill any pin holes in the toner. It doesn't like to stick if the toner has any white residue from the toner transfer. To clean the toner, I just use a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.

Baxter

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

>
> At a recent hamfest, I picked up (and not for much, so this was lucky)
> a Wavemaster II and a Superfuser, both by Dynaart (eventually became
> Pulsar).
> 
> Although I have not contacted Pulsar yet about these wonders, I do
> have a few questions for anyone who has used them, and an observation
> or so:
> 
> 1) looks like the superfuser is very very slow, but will do one pass.
> I've tried some PC board work with it so far, on 0.023 thick board,
> and it seems to be happy.  One pass seems to do it, but there might be
> some edge issues, more later.  I have the heat control set to about
> 3/4 of the maximum.  Haven't tried the green foil yet.  Anyone have
> observations about this and also, has anyone tried thicker boards?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 05:25:18 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi Harvey,
>
>I use the Green Foil before I etch and it seems to fill any pin holes in the toner. It doesn't like to stick if the toner has any white residue from the toner transfer. To clean the toner, I just use a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.

Thanks.  I do, too, but don't use the Mr. Clean, but do use 1000 grit
sandpaper.  The toner goes off rather quickly, and any small pits (not
the large ones) are relatively clean.

I was looking for some experience with either of these specific pieces
of equipment.  Slow on the superfuser seems to be the same as 6-8
passes through on the GBC I already have.  The two items came as a
pair, with some of the older Dynaart paper (white), which seems to be
reasonable.  I plan to use it mostly for silkscreen layers, which I
have not been doing.

I'm reasonably familiar with the whole process, and make DS boards one
side at a time (epoxy the two layers together), although if I need a
standard thickness board, I have to go to a plan "B".

Harvey

>
>Baxter
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>>
>> At a recent hamfest, I picked up (and not for much, so this was lucky)
>> a Wavemaster II and a Superfuser, both by Dynaart (eventually became
>> Pulsar).
>> 
>> Although I have not contacted Pulsar yet about these wonders, I do
>> have a few questions for anyone who has used them, and an observation
>> or so:
>> 
>> 1) looks like the superfuser is very very slow, but will do one pass.
>> I've tried some PC board work with it so far, on 0.023 thick board,
>> and it seems to be happy.  One pass seems to do it, but there might be
>> some edge issues, more later.  I have the heat control set to about
>> 3/4 of the maximum.  Haven't tried the green foil yet.  Anyone have
>> observations about this and also, has anyone tried thicker boards?  
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

My experience with the white pulsar paper is different - it dries out
over time, which also causes the curling.  I hold it over hot water
until it absorbs enough moisture to "flatten out" before printing on it.
This is based on some notes that came with the paper from Pulsar, in
that the fibers in too-dry paper won't lay flat when you print, and they
mess up the toner application.

Also, based on recent experience with transparencies, I'm guessing that
any fibers "sticking up" will cause the paper to hold onto the toner
better than the PCB does, which may also keep it from transferring
cleanly.

For the "wave action" - IMHO you need the etchant to be *moving* for a
consistent etch.  You can either do this with a pump or aerator, or just
wiggle the pcb around while it's etching.  For single sided boards, I
just tape the pcb to a stick so I can "stir" it in the etchant.

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:49:32 -0500, you wrote:

>
>My experience with the white pulsar paper is different - it dries out
>over time, which also causes the curling.  I hold it over hot water
>until it absorbs enough moisture to "flatten out" before printing on it.
>This is based on some notes that came with the paper from Pulsar, in
>that the fibers in too-dry paper won't lay flat when you print, and they
>mess up the toner application.

I did get some severe drying/curling if I did not immediately put the
board in water to soak it.  I think that for this batch of paper, I'll
do silk screen, much more easily removed and dealt with when bad, also
far less of the fine lines.

>
>Also, based on recent experience with transparencies, I'm guessing that
>any fibers "sticking up" will cause the paper to hold onto the toner
>better than the PCB does, which may also keep it from transferring
>cleanly.
>
>For the "wave action" - IMHO you need the etchant to be *moving* for a
>consistent etch.  You can either do this with a pump or aerator, or just
>wiggle the pcb around while it's etching.  For single sided boards, I
>just tape the pcb to a stick so I can "stir" it in the etchant.
>

I have the tank, it does work, but I need a decent source of sodium
persulfate, I'd rather not use ammonium persulfate (deliquescent), and
the sodium seems to keep better.

I was wondering if anyone had either of these pieces of equipment and
if they had any particular pointers.  As I mentioned, the superfuser
seems to be able to do the job in 1 pass.

Harvey

>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Harvey White <madyn@...> writes:
> I did get some severe drying/curling if I did not immediately put the
> board in water to soak it.

Hmm.. I think we're talking about different things.  My paper was curled
BEFORE I printed the artwork on it.  I.e. right out of the package.  If
it's too dry when you pass it through the PRINTER (not laminator), you
don't get the best results.

Getting the toner off the paper and on to the PCB is a different story ;-)

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:55:31 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Harvey White <madyn@...> writes:
>> I did get some severe drying/curling if I did not immediately put the
>> board in water to soak it.
>
>Hmm.. I think we're talking about different things.  My paper was curled
>BEFORE I printed the artwork on it.  I.e. right out of the package.  If
>it's too dry when you pass it through the PRINTER (not laminator), you
>don't get the best results.

We are talking two different things here.  if I let the paper "cool"
or perhaps dry out on the board, it bubbles up and pulls the toner off
the board.  This ruins the board since the toner will never go back
again properly.

>
>Getting the toner off the paper and on to the PCB is a different story ;-)

Actually, the superfuser seems to work well enough, but I have yet to
see how it works with more "modern" paper.  I'll probably do that
tomorrow, I have about 10 board sides to make over the weekend.  

I have found out that the green foil does not work well with the
superfuser, at least, not at the high temperature setting.  Back to
something else.

On the etchant side, I think I will investigate potassium persulfate,
may be available in pool supply stores.

Harvey

>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Interesting, when I use magazine paper, that 'bubbling' of the paper is a good sign to me that the transfer was done well. So far it hasn't pulled anything off yet, but then again I don't let it sit around for long before chucking it in the water.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

> We are talking two different things here.  if I let the paper "cool"
> or perhaps dry out on the board, it bubbles up and pulls the toner off
> the board.  This ruins the board since the toner will never go back
> again properly.

> Harvey
> 
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Harvey White <madyn@...> writes:
> We are talking two different things here.  if I let the paper "cool"
> or perhaps dry out on the board, it bubbles up and pulls the toner off
> the board.  This ruins the board since the toner will never go back
> again properly.

If the toner is too hot, it becomes a liquid instead of a sticky
plastic, and won't adhere the paper to the pcb.  You'll see some toner
on the paper and some on the pcb when you remove the paper in this case.
You want enough heat to make the toner stick to the pcb (the pcb needs
to be "scuffed" for mechanical adhesion) but not enough to actually melt
it.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone had either of these pieces of equipment and
> if they had any particular pointers. As I mentioned, the superfuser
> seems to be able to do the job in 1 pass.
>
> Harvey
>
>
I had an older model of the tank. Don't know if there are any design
changes on your model.

I think I used ammonium persulfate  (may have been sodium)  in the tank.
Worked well, but does need a fair amount of enchant in the sump of the
tank, also the enchant has a limited life span once it's dissolved in water.

 I had problems with the magnetic impellers on the pumps falling apart. Get
spares.  Don't store enchant in the tank. Especially any enchant that tends
to crystallize.
 Think it permeates the sintered magnetic material on the impellers and
cracks them. (a lot of guesswork here).

-carl







> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:32:25 -0500, you wrote:

>On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone had either of these pieces of equipment and
>> if they had any particular pointers. As I mentioned, the superfuser
>> seems to be able to do the job in 1 pass.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>>
>I had an older model of the tank. Don't know if there are any design
>changes on your model.

A lot, from what I can see.  

Minimal:  one heater rather than two.

Significant:  Entire box is made of transparent acrylic.  From what I
can see, the original one was made as an insert on a plastic (gray)
file box.  

Same:  Pumps, though.  You must have the pumps running to heat the
etchant.

>
>I think I used ammonium persulfate  (may have been sodium)  in the tank.
>Worked well, but does need a fair amount of enchant in the sump of the
>tank, also the enchant has a limited life span once it's dissolved in water.

Yep, so does Hydrogen Peroxide/Muriatic acid without adding more
oxygen.  I figured that one in.

>
> I had problems with the magnetic impellers on the pumps falling apart. Get
>spares.  Don't store enchant in the tank. Especially any enchant that tends
>to crystallize.

Ah, then I'll drain it out.  Thanks.

> Think it permeates the sintered magnetic material on the impellers and
>cracks them. (a lot of guesswork here).

Possibly.  I know that the peroxide etchant eats bubble stones, or at
least, the ferric chloride does.

Oh, and for experiments, there's a shock product for pools that is
about 4 something/lb, contains potassium monopersulfate.  Two bags of
that in a gallon of water will etch boards, about 9 dollars/load,
though.  Need to find a cheaper source of the pure stuff.

Note:  you want to make sure that there are no air bubbles on the
board.  I had a board where the holes in the pads did not etch
properly due to air bubbles.  

Thanks,

Harvey

>
>-carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> 
>>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>