Homebrew_PCBs

I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad software,
copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all
the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't
think my sewage piping would like me dumping the stuff down the
toilet and neither would the enviromentalist. So, my question is,
what am I suposed to do with the feric chloride once I make my first
pcb? Do I have to take it to a collectionn falicility? Is there a way
to neutralise it so I can dump it in the drain and is so, is this
legal or good to do?

well, neutralizing with develpoer will remove the etching behavoir....

BUT the copper (which is a heavy metal i think, potentially dangerous to
environment) is still in there.

I have no idea how much it is, or if it is poisonous (or if there is more
washed off big copper roofs).

I read about "regenerating" machines using steel wool, about electrolysis
for getting the copper out.
(not sure if electroplating will work with fe3cl)
I also read about "mix it with cement after nautralization and dump the
concrete".


You see - i don't really know.

But other thoughts...
I read that Fe3Cl is actually used by sewage cleaning facilities to help to
clean
the sewage water (sure no copper contamination here).
Also often as a positive property of fe3cl "not too bad to environment" is
listed...

Most likely such things are not legal to dump in the drain.
But often this is hard to find out (because homebrew pcb making isn't
popular...).
If possible without "alerting" the authorities check with your local
laws...


Where I live such "dangerous" waste can be brought to local collection
facilities.
But i fear in my village the guys from the responsible facility wouldn't
know what to do either...

maybe after neutralization it will just work to let the water evaporize and
then dump the residue.


I changed to Hcl H2O2 process. there is no waste. that's good.

I think i told you everything i know about this, hope you find a chemist
with more precise information.

You know - there is this saying among chem. engineers: "the solution to
pollution is dilution" ;-)

Stefan





On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:43:30 -0000, mr_gees100_peas <geovar13@...>
wrote:

> I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad software,
> copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
> reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all the
> webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them talk about
> what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't think my sewage
> piping would like me dumping the stuff down the toilet and neither would
> the enviromentalist. So, my question is, what am I suposed to do with the
> feric chloride once I make my first pcb? Do I have to take it to a
> collectionn falicility? Is there a way to neutralise it so I can dump it
> in the drain and is so, is this legal or good to do?
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mr_gees100_peas"
<geovar13@h...> wrote:

> I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad

software,

> copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
> reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all
> the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
> talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't
> think my sewage piping would like me dumping the stuff down the
> toilet and neither would the enviromentalist. So, my question is,
> what am I suposed to do with the feric chloride once I make my

first

> pcb? Do I have to take it to a collectionn falicility? Is there a

way

> to neutralise it so I can dump it in the drain and is so, is this
> legal or good to do?

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> I changed to Hcl H2O2 process. there is no waste.
> that's good.

Hello Stefan,

Besides no waste, what are the advantages to the HCl-
H2)2 process?

Best regards

Marvin Dickens

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low cost, high speed (is 12 seconds with no heating appreciated?).
The disadvantage is that you need to take more care of the resist used.
the hcl is more agressive to some resists (especially resist pens).
But it works fine with photoresist...

stefan

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:15:21 -0700 (PDT), M. <md30022@...> wrote:

>
> --- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
>> I changed to Hcl H2O2 process. there is no waste.
>> that's good.
>
> Hello Stefan,
>
> Besides no waste, what are the advantages to the HCl-
> H2)2 process?
>
> Best regards
>
> Marvin Dickens
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

In a message dated 10/16/2003 10:54:30 AM Central Standard Time,
geovar13@... writes:
However, of all
the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride.
You can use the stuff several times. If it looks greener than yellow, and/or
doesn't seem to work well anymore, it is time to simply flush it. If you are
on septic-tanks on your OWN property (not a public sewage system) don't dare
do this. (It will cause the septic system to cease working). If you don't
pour more than, say, a quart a month down the Loo, it will be insignificant. If
more, then let it evaporate until all that remains are solid crystals, and
mail that to Saddam, or just put it in a sturdy Heftybag, and...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In article <bmmeb2+fi1f@...>,
mr_gees100_peas <geovar13@...> wrote:

> I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad software,
> copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
> reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all
> the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
> talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't
> think my sewage piping would like me dumping the stuff down the
> toilet and neither would the enviromentalist. So, my question is,
> what am I suposed to do with the feric chloride once I make my first
> pcb? Do I have to take it to a collectionn falicility? Is there a way
> to neutralise it so I can dump it in the drain and is so, is this
> legal or good to do?

It rather depends on your local environmental laws.

The COSHH (Control of substances hazardous to health) data sheet (A legal
requirement in the uk), provided by RS Components, http://RSWWW.com, (No
that's not an error) says the following:


Accidental spillage - collect and reclaim ... dispose ..... licensed
waste. Flush area with plenty of water

<my comment> no warning about preventing above water entering drain.

Ecological information - not regarded as dangerous for the environment

Disposal - In accordance with local authority requirements.

I have a feeling, though I could be wrong, that it used to say something
like "small quantities can be disposed of via the drain if flushed (or was
it diluted) with copious quantities of water.

I think I would probably take that as "the sort of quantities hobbyists
are likely to be dealing with can be poured down the drain if plenty of
water is put down there too.

Unless of course anyone knows any difference......

Stuart

--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mr_gees100_peas"
<geovar13@h...> wrote:

> I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad

software,

> copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
> reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all
> the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
> talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't
> think my sewage piping would like me dumping the stuff down the
> toilet and neither would the enviromentalist. So, my question is,
> what am I suposed to do with the feric chloride once I make my

first

> pcb? Do I have to take it to a collectionn falicility? Is there a

way

> to neutralise it so I can dump it in the drain and is so, is this
> legal or good to do?

Put the etch in a plastic can alteast 4 times the size of the etch
volume. (say 1 liter etch)
Thin it with the same amount water.(makes total 2 liter)
Fill under continu movement 25% caustic-soda 250 gr. p/l (makes total
of 4 liters.
At it slow then it could be react as heating up

For the peaple who can messure pH it must about 8 to 8,2

Let the etch rest for atleast 24h to neutralize the acid and sink of
the copper and ferro.

the fluid must be light yellow and may drop into the drain.

The sink part of the fluid must be disposed proper to local collector
off chems in your town

ill try't my best to translate it from dutch.

The EPA only allow a few ppm limit of copper discharged. But
since we are not operating an industrial plant the total copper
we put down the drain might be anywhere from 10 to 100 grams once
a year or so.

You can remove copper with scrap aluminum to almost few ppm
levels. Take a plastic bucket with a lid (common white
polyethylene pale). Pour in spent etchant no more than 1/2 full.
Through in about 100g of scrap aluminium per liter of etchant.
Preferably the aluminium should have high surface area, like
sheets or shim. Solid aluminium blocks take too long to react.
Wait for 1 to 2 weeks.
Solution should be crystal clear with copper metal and aluminium
metal sludge at the bottom.
Syphon off liquid leaving brown sludge (liquid can go in second
bucket for neutralization with lime or direct into state sewage
system). Remove any solid pieces of aluminium that hadn't
completely corrode away. Neutralize sludge with excess lime, put
in sealed bag and dump in land fill.


Stefan Trethan wrote:

> well, neutralizing with develpoer will remove the etching behavoir....
>
> BUT the copper (which is a heavy metal i think, potentially dangerous to
> environment) is still in there.
>
> I have no idea how much it is, or if it is poisonous (or if there is more
> washed off big copper roofs).
>
> I read about "regenerating" machines using steel wool, about electrolysis
> for getting the copper out.
> (not sure if electroplating will work with fe3cl)
> I also read about "mix it with cement after nautralization and dump the
> concrete".
>
>
> You see - i don't really know.
>
> But other thoughts...
> I read that Fe3Cl is actually used by sewage cleaning facilities to help to
> clean
> the sewage water (sure no copper contamination here).
> Also often as a positive property of fe3cl "not too bad to environment" is
> listed...
>
> Most likely such things are not legal to dump in the drain.
> But often this is hard to find out (because homebrew pcb making isn't
> popular...).
> If possible without "alerting" the authorities check with your local
> laws...
>
>
> Where I live such "dangerous" waste can be brought to local collection
> facilities.
> But i fear in my village the guys from the responsible facility wouldn't
> know what to do either...
>
> maybe after neutralization it will just work to let the water evaporize and
> then dump the residue.
>
>
> I changed to Hcl H2O2 process. there is no waste. that's good.
>
> I think i told you everything i know about this, hope you find a chemist
> with more precise information.
>
> You know - there is this saying among chem. engineers: "the solution to
> pollution is dilution" ;-)
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:43:30 -0000, mr_gees100_peas <geovar13@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad software,
>>copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
>>reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all the
>>webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them talk about
>>what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't think my sewage
>>piping would like me dumping the stuff down the toilet and neither would
>>the enviromentalist. So, my question is, what am I suposed to do with the
>>feric chloride once I make my first pcb? Do I have to take it to a
>>collectionn falicility? Is there a way to neutralise it so I can dump it
>>in the drain and is so, is this legal or good to do?
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Greetings,

Save the ferric chloride in a plastic container with a good seal for future
circuit boards and / or etching projects.

The ferric chloride can be used over and over again many times until it
becomes highly saturated with copper.

Do not discard the ferric chloride in a drain as this is illegal in most areas.

The smallest sized crock pots or slow cookers make a suitable etcher for
the standard 16 ounce bottles of ferric chloride available from Radio
Shack, Jameco, etc.

The ferric chloride should be heated between 50°C (122°F) and 65° (149°F)
or the etching time and the undercutting of traces will be excessive.

Do not heat the ferric chloride in a microwave oven, in a gas oven nor with
open flame.

The ferric chloride should only be used in a well ventilated area.

Ferric chloride is also useful for etching copper and brass thin sheet
metal parts.

Railroad model hobbyist etch out very detailed and intricate railroad car
shells from thin sheets of brass. After etching, the brass sheets are
folded up and brazed to create the body of the model railroad cars. The
detail down to the individual rivets is amazing.

We have used ferric chloride to etch out precision shim washers that were
1mm in thickness for the laser optics industry. We resorted to ferric
chloride etching when die punch efforts failed.

Temperature controlled ferric chloride provides reliable, repeatable
results with less toxicity than the alternatives. Ammonium persulfate is a
suitable and reasonable alternative to ferric chloride.

Thanks, Ned





Ned Seith
Nedtronics
1716 lodi Avenue
San Mateo, CA 94401
650-473-0200 x111
FAX 650-473-0357
nedtron@...

I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad software,
copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all
the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't
think my sewage piping would like me dumping the stuff down the
toilet and neither would the enviromentalist. So, my question is,
what am I suposed to do with the feric chloride once I make my first
pcb? Do I have to take it to a collectionn falicility? Is there a way
to neutralise it so I can dump it in the drain and is so, is this
legal or good to do?

nedtron@... wrote:

> Greetings,
>

...

> Ferric chloride is also useful for etching copper and brass thin sheet
> metal parts.
>
> Railroad model hobbyist etch out very detailed and intricate railroad car
> shells from thin sheets of brass. After etching, the brass sheets are
> folded up and brazed to create the body of the model railroad cars. The
> detail down to the individual rivets is amazing.
>
> We have used ferric chloride to etch out precision shim washers that were
> 1mm in thickness for the laser optics industry. We resorted to ferric
> chloride etching when die punch efforts failed.
>
> Temperature controlled ferric chloride provides reliable, repeatable
> results with less toxicity than the alternatives. Ammonium persulfate is a
> suitable and reasonable alternative to ferric chloride.

I've tried etching thin (0.2mm) brass and copper sheet in FeCl and the action
took *hours* and didn't give a clean finish. Solution was 1:1 dilution with
water at room-temp in a bubble etcher. A was told by a pcb fabricator that
the ease of pcb etching might have something to do with phosphorous in the
copper that modifies the crystal grains. I tried cleaning and degreasing
the shim, but it was still a reluctant etch.

Hi group members,
Maybe is OT, but I see you knew about chemistry.
Do somebody knew what is delrin
Peja

-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Shaw [mailto:rjshaw@...]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 3:47 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] what to do once I'm done



...

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Miroslav Pejic wrote:

> Hi group members,
> Maybe is OT, but I see you knew about chemistry.
> Do somebody knew what is delrin

'tis plastique

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=delrin+plastic&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Can Ammoinium Persulfate be poured down the drain?

Ted


nedtron@... wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Save the ferric chloride in a plastic container with a good seal for
> future
> circuit boards and / or etching projects.
>
> The ferric chloride can be used over and over again many times until
> it
> becomes highly saturated with copper.
>
> Do not discard the ferric chloride in a drain as this is illegal in
> most areas.
>
> The smallest sized crock pots or slow cookers make a suitable etcher
> for
> the standard 16 ounce bottles of ferric chloride available from Radio
> Shack, Jameco, etc.
>
> The ferric chloride should be heated between 50°C (122°F) and 65°
> (149°F)
> or the etching time and the undercutting of traces will be excessive.
>
> Do not heat the ferric chloride in a microwave oven, in a gas oven nor
> with
> open flame.
>
> The ferric chloride should only be used in a well ventilated area.
>
> Ferric chloride is also useful for etching copper and brass thin sheet
>
> metal parts.
>
> Railroad model hobbyist etch out very detailed and intricate railroad
> car
> shells from thin sheets of brass. After etching, the brass sheets are
> folded up and brazed to create the body of the model railroad cars.
> The
> detail down to the individual rivets is amazing.
>
> We have used ferric chloride to etch out precision shim washers that
> were
> 1mm in thickness for the laser optics industry. We resorted to ferric
> chloride etching when die punch efforts failed.
>
> Temperature controlled ferric chloride provides reliable, repeatable
> results with less toxicity than the alternatives. Ammonium persulfate
> is a
> suitable and reasonable alternative to ferric chloride.
>
> Thanks, Ned
>
>
>
>
>
> Ned Seith
> Nedtronics
> 1716 lodi Avenue
> San Mateo, CA 94401
> 650-473-0200 x111
> FAX 650-473-0357
> nedtron@...
>
> I'm new at this and I want to do my first pcb. I have a cad software,
> copper board, ferric chloride, drills, ect, ect. By doing a lot of
> reading I think I have a god idea on how to do it. However, of all
> the webpages and articles I found on how to make a pcb non of them
> talk about what to do with the left over feric chloride. I don't
> think my sewage piping would like me dumping the stuff down the
> toilet and neither would the enviromentalist. So, my question is,
> what am I suposed to do with the feric chloride once I make my first
> pcb? Do I have to take it to a collectionn falicility? Is there a way
> to neutralise it so I can dump it in the drain and is so, is this
> legal or good to do?
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT
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>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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--
Ted Huntington
Programmer Analyst I
Main Library
University of California, Irvine
PO Box 19557
Irvine, CA 92623-9557
emesgs: thunting@...
web page: http://business.lib.uci.edu/webpages/ted.htm
8:00a-12:00p Business Office (949) 824-8926
1:00p-5:00p Multimedia Resource Center (949) 824-1674
"Stop violence, teach science."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ted Huntington wrote:

> Can Ammoinium Persulfate be poured down the drain?
>
> Ted

Perulfates are unstable and will decompose to sulfate +
acid. Of all the talk about morals of pouring etchant down
the drain, it is only the copper loaded solutions which are
considered harmful to the environment.
If you are only doing a small PCB every month or two then
I'd just pour it down the drain each time. If you got a 20L
drum of spent etchant then that's a different story.
One option is to etch in a small tray and then immediately
dispose of the used etchant it into a 20L drum (correctly
labeled) and worry about it another day when it drum is full.

> One option is to etch in a small tray and then immediately dispose of the
> used etchant it into a 20L drum (correctly labeled) and worry about it
> another day when it drum is full.
>

;-)))

What happens if you neutralize the stuff, then let it dry out it an open
tray?
What's left there? copper, in which form? and what is the result of dried
out neutralized etchant?
what results from neutralizing acids at all? how is this ph neutral mixture
called?

You see i don't know much about that stuff..
but i am willing to learn.......

st

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>>One option is to etch in a small tray and then immediately dispose of the
>>used etchant it into a 20L drum (correctly labeled) and worry about it
>>another day when it drum is full.
>>
>
>
>
> ;-)))
>
> What happens if you neutralize the stuff, then let it dry out it an open
> tray?
> What's left there? copper, in which form? and what is the result of dried
> out neutralized etchant?
> what results from neutralizing acids at all? how is this ph neutral mixture
> called?
>

All the common etchants (persulfates, ferric chloride,
cupric chloride, HCl+H202) that finished etching copper will
precipitate copper(II) hydroxide (bright blue solid) when
neutralized. The copper(II) ion is only soluble when the
solution is acidic (pH < 7) as it is with all the above
etchants. The dried solids will contain mixed salts and
copper(II) hydroxide, and maybe some copper(II) oxide. It
depends on the etchant. Which etchant were you interested in ?


see;
http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/erlinger/water/background/ph.html



Adam

thanks adam....

mixture of salts... i see..
i will read the link you provided.. currently occupied with plotting to
pcb..

st

>
>
>
> All the common etchants (persulfates, ferric chloride, cupric chloride,
> HCl+H202) that finished etching copper will precipitate copper(II)
> hydroxide (bright blue solid) when neutralized. The copper(II) ion is
> only soluble when the solution is acidic (pH < 7) as it is with all the
> above etchants. The dried solids will contain mixed salts and copper(II)
> hydroxide, and maybe some copper(II) oxide. It depends on the etchant.
> Which etchant were you interested in ?
>
>
> see;
> http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/erlinger/water/background/ph.html
>
>
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>