Homebrew_PCBs

Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the
article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?

Mark

Ick. It'd be a crying shame to spend that much money. Unfortunately, I'm
traveling and only have my iPad with me and the school's VPN can't be set
up on iOS devices. Many university library computers don't require a
login. Any one of those ought get you access.



Sent from my iPad

On 2012-01-18, at 3:53 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:



Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the
article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?

Mark




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There must be a reprint out there somewhere ...

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: mlerman@...
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:53:07 -0500
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silver Ink
























Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the

article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?



Mark


























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Look under the "supporting documentation" page:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c

there is a PDF with the experimental methods described.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c/suppl_file/ja209267c_si_001.pdf

good luck!

regards
David

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:38 AM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:
> There must be a reprint out there somewhere ...
>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> From: mlerman@...
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:53:07 -0500
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silver Ink
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> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Very Nice!!!! Thanks David et al for the sources!!! I think these traces could be further electro-plated if needed.
-Lee Studley

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Mitchell <gossiphog@...> wrote:
>
> Look under the "supporting documentation" page:
>
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c
>
> there is a PDF with the experimental methods described.
>
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c/suppl_file/ja209267c_si_001.pdf
>
> good luck!
>
> regards
> David
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:38 AM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:
> > There must be a reprint out there somewhere ...
> >
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > From: mlerman@...
> > Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:53:07 -0500
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silver Ink
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> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Do you have the link to the article / what journal it's in? I can probably
get it for you, but I thought for sure someone else would have access first.

Andrew Hakman

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the
> article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?
>
> Mark
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The silver acetate seems to go for about $2 USD per gram from
"legitimate" sources, less from ebay. They mix 1 g with 2.5ml of
ammonium hydroxide plus .2ml formic acid. Assuming you can get 2 ml
of ink from the mixture and that the cost of the ammonium hydroxide
and formic acid are negligible (???), the cost would be about $1
USD/ml. Since you are only drawing traces, it shouldn't be too
expensive, especially if you can reuse any ink wasted in head
cleaning. Anyone interested in a group buy of the chemicals?

Mark


At 02:51 PM 1/18/2012, you wrote:

>Very Nice!!!! Thanks David et al for the sources!!! I think these
>traces could be further electro-plated if needed.
>-Lee Studley
>
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Mitchell <gossiphog@...> wrote:
> >
> > Look under the "supporting documentation" page:
> >
> > http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c
> >
> > there is a PDF with the experimental methods described.
> >
> >
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c/suppl_file/ja209267c_si_001.pdf
> >
> > good luck!
> >
> > regards
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:38 AM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:
> > > There must be a reprint out there somewhere ...
> > >
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: mlerman@...
> > > Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:53:07 -0500
> > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silver Ink
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> > > Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the
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> > > article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?
> > >
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> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files,
> and Photos:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

By the way, I did actually access the article, but it really does not
provide any useful additional information beyond the info in the
supporting data PDF. (some graphs and such).

-David

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Andrew Hakman <andrew.hakman@...> wrote:
> Do you have the link to the article / what journal it's in? I can probably
> get it for you, but I thought for sure someone else would have access first.
>
> Andrew Hakman
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the
>> article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The supporting pdf (with the experimental method) was well written and complete. There is sufficient info there to allow replication of the ink and possibly enough to make an ink compatible with an ink jet printhead.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Mitchell" <gossiphog@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 5:03:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silver Ink
> By the way, I did actually access the article, but it really does not
> provide any useful additional information beyond the info in the
> supporting data PDF. (some graphs and such).
>
> -David
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Andrew Hakman
> <andrew.hakman@...> wrote:
> > Do you have the link to the article / what journal it's in? I can
> > probably
> > get it for you, but I thought for sure someone else would have
> > access first.
> >
> > Andrew Hakman
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyone interested in sharing the $35 USD cost of accessing the
> >> article Andrew found regarding silver acetate ink?
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

>
> The silver acetate seems to go for about $2 USD per gram from
> "legitimate" sources, less from ebay.

Is that lab grade or technical grade? There's a HUGE price
difference between the 99% purity stuff, and the 99.9% purity
stuff. :-)

For that matter, has anyone researched how to produce Silver
Acetate themselves? It's probably a lot more complex than
simply dropping some Silver coins into a bottle of vinegar.

Ok, having looked it up on wikipedia, it looks like there's a
three step process (Silver + Nitric Acid->Silver Nitrate +
Sodium Carbonate -> Silver Carbonate + Acetic Acid ->
Silver Acetate.). That's not too complex. I think the real
problem with the cost is that the price of Silver is rather
incredible at the moment.

> They mix 1 g with 2.5ml of ammonium hydroxide plus .2ml formic
> acid. Assuming you can get 2 ml of ink from the mixture and that
> the cost of the ammonium hydroxide and formic acid are negligible
> (???), the cost would be about $1 USD/ml.

Ammonium Hydroxide is simply ammonia in water.

Formic Acid isn't too hard to synthesize (via a couple of routes),
so it should be reasonably cheap. Don't get it on you. It's
the active ingredient in bee and ant stings.

> Since you are only drawing traces, it shouldn't be too
> expensive, especially if you can reuse any ink wasted in head
> cleaning. Anyone interested in a group buy of the chemicals?

I doubt that the cleaned ink from the head could be reused. But,
a little care in batching up the plots could minimize waste.

> Mark

Dave <- Not a chemist, but I occasionally bathe in H2O!

Silver is currently $29 per ounce on the spot market, but you can't buy it for that. $2.00 per gram for silver acetate sounds like bargain.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Silver Ink



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
> The silver acetate seems to go for about $2 USD per gram from
> "legitimate" sources, less from ebay.

Is that lab grade or technical grade? There's a HUGE price
difference between the 99% purity stuff, and the 99.9% purity
stuff. :-)

For that matter, has anyone researched how to produce Silver
Acetate themselves? It's probably a lot more complex than
simply dropping some Silver coins into a bottle of vinegar.

Ok, having looked it up on wikipedia, it looks like there's a
three step process (Silver + Nitric Acid->Silver Nitrate +
Sodium Carbonate -> Silver Carbonate + Acetic Acid ->
Silver Acetate.). That's not too complex. I think the real
problem with the cost is that the price of Silver is rather
incredible at the moment.

> They mix 1 g with 2.5ml of ammonium hydroxide plus .2ml formic
> acid. Assuming you can get 2 ml of ink from the mixture and that
> the cost of the ammonium hydroxide and formic acid are negligible
> (???), the cost would be about $1 USD/ml.

Ammonium Hydroxide is simply ammonia in water.

Formic Acid isn't too hard to synthesize (via a couple of routes),
so it should be reasonably cheap. Don't get it on you. It's
the active ingredient in bee and ant stings.

> Since you are only drawing traces, it shouldn't be too
> expensive, especially if you can reuse any ink wasted in head
> cleaning. Anyone interested in a group buy of the chemicals?

I doubt that the cleaned ink from the head could be reused. But,
a little care in batching up the plots could minimize waste.

> Mark

Dave <- Not a chemist, but I occasionally bathe in H2O!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is also the option to use some old silverware? It is 92.5% silver.

It is just an extra step to purify it.

Bertho

===========================

From: Anhalt Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:54
Silver is currently $29 per ounce on the spot market, but you can't buy it
for that. $2.00 per gram for silver acetate sounds like bargain.

John






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

99% "without further purification" if you read <http://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ja209267c/suppl_file/ja209267c_si_001.pdf>

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave" <wa4qal@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:08:37 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Silver Ink
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> >
> > The silver acetate seems to go for about $2 USD per gram from
> > "legitimate" sources, less from ebay.
>
> Is that lab grade or technical grade? There's a HUGE price
> difference between the 99% purity stuff, and the 99.9% purity
> stuff. :-)
>
> For that matter, has anyone researched how to produce Silver
> Acetate themselves? It's probably a lot more complex than
> simply dropping some Silver coins into a bottle of vinegar.
>
> Ok, having looked it up on wikipedia, it looks like there's a
> three step process (Silver + Nitric Acid->Silver Nitrate +
> Sodium Carbonate -> Silver Carbonate + Acetic Acid ->
> Silver Acetate.). That's not too complex. I think the real
> problem with the cost is that the price of Silver is rather
> incredible at the moment.
>
> > They mix 1 g with 2.5ml of ammonium hydroxide plus .2ml formic
> > acid. Assuming you can get 2 ml of ink from the mixture and that
> > the cost of the ammonium hydroxide and formic acid are negligible
> > (???), the cost would be about $1 USD/ml.
>
> Ammonium Hydroxide is simply ammonia in water.
>
> Formic Acid isn't too hard to synthesize (via a couple of routes),
> so it should be reasonably cheap. Don't get it on you. It's
> the active ingredient in bee and ant stings.
>
> > Since you are only drawing traces, it shouldn't be too
> > expensive, especially if you can reuse any ink wasted in head
> > cleaning. Anyone interested in a group buy of the chemicals?
>
> I doubt that the cleaned ink from the head could be reused. But,
> a little care in batching up the plots could minimize waste.
>
> > Mark
>
> Dave <- Not a chemist, but I occasionally bathe in H2O!
>
>

It would waste a lot less ink if you printed with a plotter rather
than an inkjet. That way you could easily make several passes and 2
sided boards. Does anyone have a plotter recommendation that is
available, inexpensive, and has appropriate software available? I
think I'm going to give this a try.

Mark

>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>