Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-04-03 21:38 UTC

Thread

PCB holder

PCB holder

2011-12-22 by Steve

This homebrew PCB holder 
<http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf> was 
referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of 
polyethylene and nylon.

Is it OK to work with ESD sensitive devices using this PCB holder? Seems 
like polyethylene and nylon are good insulators which would be good at 
holding a static electricity charge?

Does it help if the PCB holder is laying on the ESD mat which I have on 
my workbench and with which I use a wristband?

Thanks.

Steve K8JQ



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-22 by Stefan Trethan

The best thing against ESD damage is, in my personal opinion, not to
worry about it.

You could make the same holder from ESD dissipative plastic. Be warned
that it is ridiculously expensive.
Or you could use wood.

Or you could paint magical symbols on it  to ward off static charge,
they'll work just as well, but only if done in pencil. ;-)

By the way for $23 you can buy a vice in any hardware store:
<http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=PRODUCT&CATEGORY=UTILITY+VISES&PARTNUMBER=83-070>
But then I don't suppose you plan to buy the kit....

Why do you want the holder? I don't find it at all practical to put my
PCBs in a holder. Only when I make several boards I use a frame like
this for throughhole stuffing:
<http://www.smdv.de/products/31048/000-m.jpg>
I use it because the foam pushes the components in place, not because
it holds the boards.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
> This homebrew PCB holder
> <http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf> was
> referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of
> polyethylene and nylon.
>
> Is it OK to work with ESD sensitive devices using this PCB holder? Seems
> like polyethylene and nylon are good insulators which would be good at
> holding a static electricity charge?
>
> Does it help if the PCB holder is laying on the ESD mat which I have on
> my workbench and with which I use a wristband?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve K8JQ
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-22 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Steve

What a load of rubbish that design is. Any friction will build up a charge, bye bye ESD sensitive devices, even with a wrist strap!

Malcolm
 
I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 From: Steve <steve65@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 7:46 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder
 

  
This homebrew PCB holder 
<http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf> was 
referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of 
polyethylene and nylon.

Is it OK to work with ESD sensitive devices using this PCB holder? Seems 
like polyethylene and nylon are good insulators which would be good at 
holding a static electricity charge?

Does it help if the PCB holder is laying on the ESD mat which I have on 
my workbench and with which I use a wristband?

Thanks.

Steve K8JQ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-23 by John

It looks interesting to me. I will try the concept with wood & acrylic sheet. I think it can be used to hold multiple boards as an assembly and perhaps a permanent enclosure for some of my hombrew projects.

I have projects built in cardboard boxes and even a couple with only a plastic bag for protection. Enclosures are always a problem!

   de W8CCW

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Steve
> 
> What a load of rubbish that design is. Any friction will build up a charge, bye bye ESD sensitive devices, even with a wrist strap!
> 
> Malcolm
> Â 
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> 
> 
> ________________________________

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-23 by Dwayne Reid

At 12:46 PM 12/22/2011, Steve wrote:
>This homebrew PCB holder
><http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf> was
>referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of
>polyethylene and nylon.

I personally would not build it from the plastic materials that you 
mention.  However, unfinished wood is a reasonable choice so long as 
you keep your humidity levels at 30% or higher.  Adding any coating 
to the wood is a bad idea because that coating is liable to 
accumulate high levels of static charge.

Someone else suggested just ignoring the possible effects of ESD 
damage.  My experience is that is a bad suggestion.  You don't need 
to be anal about ESD protection but keeping materials that can hold 
extremely high levels of static charge far away from your sensitive 
parts just makes sense.

We keep a couple of ESD field-strength meters in our shop for testing 
new materials coming into our premises.  It is absolutely astonishing 
just how much static field some materials can absorb and hold - I've 
seen readings as high as 75KV on some materials.


The PCB holder design in the above PDF file is simple and 
basic.  However, I would find it difficult to use because the board 
is parallel with the bench surface.  I have a couple of Panavise PCB 
holders that I use all the time - two long arms with a V-groove on 
each arm (facing each other).  The arms are spaced apart by the width 
of the PC board.

The great advantage of the Panavise setup is that the arm assembly 
can be rotated both left and right as well as tilted up and 
down.  That makes it easy to get the surface of the PCB in the best 
orientation for soldering or whatever.  I find that I usually have 
the board sitting at somewhere between 30 to 60 degrees from 
vertical, depending on exactly what I'm doing at that point in time.

You could make your own version: use 3/4" wood dowel for the 
arms.  Use a router table to route a V-groove down the length of each 
arm, then drill a 3/8" hole crosswise on each arm right near the end 
of the dowel.  Drill and tap a 10-32 screw hole into the end of the 
arm for a locking screw.  Use 3/8" dowel rod to hold the arms.  You 
could route a flat surface on one side of the 3/8" dowel rod if you 
want to stop the 3/4" dowels from rotating (the flat surface gives a 
good place for the 10-32 screw to register against.

dwayne

-- 
Dwayne Reid   <dwayner@...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-23 by alex4459jopiklal44

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
>
> This homebrew PCB holder 
> <http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf> was 
> referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of 
> polyethylene and nylon.
> 
> Is it OK to work with ESD sensitive devices using this PCB holder? Seems 

I would not use it for components .ESD is not a religion its fact that components is destroyed with static electricity.. and acryllic and like is very good for generating highvoltage when you rub it.. 
alex

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-23 by MIKE DURKIN

I wouldn't use it ... I would pintch a stop sign for a flat aluminum surface first!!

Mike KC7NOA 

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: christiansen_alex@...
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:07:34 +0000
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder














 



  


    
      
      
      



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:

>

> This homebrew PCB holder 

> <http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf> was 

> referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of 

> polyethylene and nylon.

> 

> Is it OK to work with ESD sensitive devices using this PCB holder? Seems 



I would not use it for components .ESD is not a religion its fact that components is destroyed with static electricity.. and acryllic and like is very good for generating highvoltage when you rub it.. 

alex






    
     

    
    






  






 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Steve

Thanks everyone for the thoughts regarding the polyethylene/nylon PCB 
holder and the ramifications regarding damage to ESD sensitive devices. 
I think I'm going to pass on this particular holder.

One of the responses mentioned the use of the Panavise PCB holder. The 
Panavise in my case would be sitting on an ESD mat and I'd be using a 
grounding strap. Is that a viable environment for working with PCB's 
that use ESD sensitive devices?

Steve K8JQ

On 12/22/2011 3:15 PM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
> Steve
>
> What a load of rubbish that design is. Any friction will build up a charge, bye bye ESD sensitive devices, even with a wrist strap!
>
> Malcolm
>   
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
>
>
> ________________________________
>   From: Steve<steve65@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 7:46 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder
>
>
>   
> This homebrew PCB holder
> <http://www.qrpbuilder.com/downloads/pcb_holder_you_can_build.pdf>  was
> referenced on another email reflector. It is constructed mostly of
> polyethylene and nylon.
>
> Is it OK to work with ESD sensitive devices using this PCB holder? Seems
> like polyethylene and nylon are good insulators which would be good at
> holding a static electricity charge?
>
> Does it help if the PCB holder is laying on the ESD mat which I have on
> my workbench and with which I use a wristband?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve K8JQ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- 
Read The Patriot Post    Vertitas vos Liberabit
http://patriotpost.us/subscription/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Dwayne Reid

At 05:41 PM 12/23/2011, Steve wrote:
>Thanks everyone for the thoughts regarding the polyethylene/nylon PCB
>holder and the ramifications regarding damage to ESD sensitive devices.
>I think I'm going to pass on this particular holder.
>
>One of the responses mentioned the use of the Panavise PCB holder. The
>Panavise in my case would be sitting on an ESD mat and I'd be using a
>grounding strap. Is that a viable environment for working with PCB's
>that use ESD sensitive devices?

Yep.

Our workbenches are covered with a static-dissipative surface which 
is extremely durable.  We check the surface resistivity yearly and 
have found no degradation over the past 15 or 20 years.  There was 
some initial degradation over the first couple of years but the 
manufacturer assured us that was normal.  Looks like they were right 
- the surface resistivity has remained essentially unchanged since 
that initial period.

I don't wear a wrist-strap.  Instead, I wear static-dissipative shoes 
and stand on an ESD mat.  Side note - you have NO idea how hard it 
was to find the combination of slip-on shoes with safety-rated steel 
toes and static-dissipative.  But find them I did - J B Goodhue 
'Officer' series shoes.  Get them at <www.shuzonline.com> .

You don't need to be scared of ESD - it truly is easily managed.  The 
important thing to remember is to keep everything that you are 
working on at the same potential.  In general, that means touching a 
ground point on anything that you are going to poke around 
inside.  Similarly, if you are going to hand a static-sensitive 
device to another person, make sure that you touch that person first 
before handing over the device.

When you walk up to your workbench, touch a ground point before 
touching anything on the bench.  The whole idea is to eliminate 
voltage differences between you and anything that you touch.

dwayne

-- 
Dwayne Reid   <dwayner@...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Ben L

> By the way for $23 you can buy a vice in any hardware store:
> <http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=PRODUCT&CATEGORY=UTILITY+VISES&PARTNUMBER=83-070>
> But then I don't suppose you plan to buy the kit....
>
Think I would agree The vise above or one like it would make more sense.

Myself I use a Panavise PCB holder

Ben

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Stefan Trethan

Come on people, stay realistic.
Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
anything like that.
Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB holder.

In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
even if you take no measures at all.
Modern components are much more rugged than say early cmos ICs. You
can store them in Styrofoam if you like and will in all probability
never see a failure from this.

Let me compare the ESD situation to something suitable for the season
- ice on the ground. You know when you walk outside there can be ice,
you can slip and break something, yet most people don't wear crampons.
Why not? Because the risk does not warrant the effort for most
situations. It does sometimes - that's why crampons exist. The ESD
gear manufacturers of course try to sell you crampons and a full set
of knee and elbow protectors and a helmet while they are at it - and
they don't even lie, you are safer that way.

Just weigh the risk before you go shopping, is all I say. If you are
not working on very many very expensive very sensitive components you
may not want to even bother.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 2:32 AM, Dwayne Reid <dwayner@...> wrote:
> At 05:41 PM 12/23/2011, Steve wrote:
>>Thanks everyone for the thoughts regarding the polyethylene/nylon PCB
>>holder and the ramifications regarding damage to ESD sensitive devices.
>>I think I'm going to pass on this particular holder.
>>
>>One of the responses mentioned the use of the Panavise PCB holder. The
>>Panavise in my case would be sitting on an ESD mat and I'd be using a
>>grounding strap. Is that a viable environment for working with PCB's
>>that use ESD sensitive devices?
>
> Yep.
>
> Our workbenches are covered with a static-dissipative surface which
> is extremely durable.  We check the surface resistivity yearly and
> have found no degradation over the past 15 or 20 years.  There was
> some initial degradation over the first couple of years but the
> manufacturer assured us that was normal.  Looks like they were right
> - the surface resistivity has remained essentially unchanged since
> that initial period.
>
> I don't wear a wrist-strap.  Instead, I wear static-dissipative shoes
> and stand on an ESD mat.  Side note - you have NO idea how hard it
> was to find the combination of slip-on shoes with safety-rated steel
> toes and static-dissipative.  But find them I did - J B Goodhue
> 'Officer' series shoes.  Get them at <www.shuzonline.com> .
>
> You don't need to be scared of ESD - it truly is easily managed.  The
> important thing to remember is to keep everything that you are
> working on at the same potential.  In general, that means touching a
> ground point on anything that you are going to poke around
> inside.  Similarly, if you are going to hand a static-sensitive
> device to another person, make sure that you touch that person first
> before handing over the device.
>
> When you walk up to your workbench, touch a ground point before
> touching anything on the bench.  The whole idea is to eliminate
> voltage differences between you and anything that you touch.
>
> dwayne
>
> --
> Dwayne Reid   <dwayner@...>
> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
> (780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
> www.trinity-electronics.com
> Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Boman33

You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.

Bertho
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28



Come on people, stay realistic.
Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
anything like that.
Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB
holder.

In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
even if you take no measures at all.
---<snip



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Stefan Trethan

What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?

We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
slowed down with ESD measures?

Having used only minimal ESD precautions all my life and never seen a
failure, and frequently testing designs with ESD guns gives me some
confidence that there is a certain amount of unwarranted hype
associated with this topic.

Would you care to elaborate using specific examples of how you damaged
components with ESD?
For some reason peope never can back their fear up with specific
incidents when I prompt them. The examples should _not_ involve either
a huge production quantity (where the statistics get you), or very
early CMOS components (which were much more sensitive).




This is similar to the temperature when soldering issue. There are old
books and stuff that suggest clamping heatsink tweezers onto
semiconductors while soldering, and generally put the fear of god into
beginners. When they ask for advise I have to first disabuse them of
the notion that components will just blow up as soon as they get
slightly warm. Modern components can withstand soldering heat to an
amazing degree.

It is not helpful to overrate risk, it just puts people off when they
really should be getting stuck into some hands on experience. I let
the magic smoke out so many times with stupid mistakes, why worry
about one or two components that may or may not have been damaged by
ESD?

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Boman33 <boman33@...> wrote:
> You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.
>
> Bertho
>
>
>
> From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
>
>
>
> Come on people, stay realistic.
> Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
> anything like that.
> Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB
> holder.
>
> In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> even if you take no measures at all.
> ---<snip
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Eldon Brown

I agree, for once someone has stated what I observed all along.

But, if I had only one part, and it was going to the Moon, I would think
twice about ESD.

Eldon

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 00:48, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@gmx.at> wrote:

> **
>
>
> What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?
>
> We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
> almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
> Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
> slowed down with ESD measures?
>
> Having used only minimal ESD precautions all my life and never seen a
> failure, and frequently testing designs with ESD guns gives me some
> confidence that there is a certain amount of unwarranted hype
> associated with this topic.
>
> Would you care to elaborate using specific examples of how you damaged
> components with ESD?
> For some reason peope never can back their fear up with specific
> incidents when I prompt them. The examples should _not_ involve either
> a huge production quantity (where the statistics get you), or very
> early CMOS components (which were much more sensitive).
>
> This is similar to the temperature when soldering issue. There are old
> books and stuff that suggest clamping heatsink tweezers onto
> semiconductors while soldering, and generally put the fear of god into
> beginners. When they ask for advise I have to first disabuse them of
> the notion that components will just blow up as soon as they get
> slightly warm. Modern components can withstand soldering heat to an
> amazing degree.
>
> It is not helpful to overrate risk, it just puts people off when they
> really should be getting stuck into some hands on experience. I let
> the magic smoke out so many times with stupid mistakes, why worry
> about one or two components that may or may not have been damaged by
> ESD?
>
> ST
>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Boman33 <boman33@...> wrote:
> > You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.
> >
> > Bertho
> >
> >
> >
> > From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
> >
> >
> >
> > Come on people, stay realistic.
> > Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
> > anything like that.
> > Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB
> > holder.
> >
> > In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> > notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> > even if you take no measures at all.
> > ---<snip
> >
> >
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by John Dammeyer

Hi,

I worked in the semi industry for a while.  They are fastidious about
keeping static down to a minimum.  And rightly so.  The reason is more
subtle.

Your analogy about driving doesn't really address the issue and really
tends to obfuscate the issue.

But what the heck,  let's stay with the driving example.  If I drive my
car at 200kph over few pot holes it's likely I won't wreck the car but
perhaps I've started a small crack in a tie rod or suspension member.  Now
since I rarely drive 200kph I really don't run the car at the limit so the
crack which is slowly getting bigger doesn't impact the operation of the
vehicle so much that I'd notice.

Then one day I hit a tiny bump in the road and the crack fractures
completely causing the car to veer right, killing the 7 year old girl at
the cross walk.  It's chalked up to mechanical failure and perhaps someone
tries to sue the automaker.  There's no real causal relationship with the
pot holes a few years ago yet the little girl died.

Extreme example?  Yes.  Much like I've yet to be hit by lightning yet a
number of people die from that every year and knowing that I avoid
swimming in the lake in a lightning storm.

In the electronic component industry that high voltage low current zap
(which if under 5Kv you can't really feel) can be enough to damage but not
destroy the device.  This is key.  The rise time of a switch may go from
8nS to 14nS.  That op amp may be a tad noisier or generate a tiny bit more
heat through a higher resistance junction than a non-damaged part.

It's the partial unseen damage that can cause issues.  Not today.  Not
tomorrow.  But maybe next week or next month or next year.  That junction
wasn't designed to be that thin or to run that hot.  Over time, the heat
takes a toll and eventually the part and the product fails.

Not everyone who builds PCBs at home builds frivolous projects that do no
harm when they fail.  A failed milling machine controller that has the
table move erratically destroys a tool bit snapping it off and flinging it
across the room or into someone is always a possibility,  even if small.

But worse I believe you are doing a disservice to manufacturers who sell
kits or board level products with a long term warranty.  Telling people
that it's all right to ignore anti static procedures invites potential
damage that you don't have to pay for.  Someone takes your advice and
treats electronics roughly and it fails 5 weeks later.  There's no causal
relationship to your advice and the failed part so you don't have to take
any responsibility.

Best Regards,

John Dammeyer

Automation Artisans Inc.
http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/
Ph. 1 250 544 4950
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Stefan Trethan
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 12:49 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder




What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?

We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
slowed down with ESD measures?

Having used only minimal ESD precautions all my life and never seen a
failure, and frequently testing designs with ESD guns gives me some
confidence that there is a certain amount of unwarranted hype
associated with this topic.

Would you care to elaborate using specific examples of how you damaged
components with ESD?
For some reason peope never can back their fear up with specific
incidents when I prompt them. The examples should _not_ involve either
a huge production quantity (where the statistics get you), or very
early CMOS components (which were much more sensitive).

This is similar to the temperature when soldering issue. There are old
books and stuff that suggest clamping heatsink tweezers onto
semiconductors while soldering, and generally put the fear of god into
beginners. When they ask for advise I have to first disabuse them of
the notion that components will just blow up as soon as they get
slightly warm. Modern components can withstand soldering heat to an
amazing degree.

It is not helpful to overrate risk, it just puts people off when they
really should be getting stuck into some hands on experience. I let
the magic smoke out so many times with stupid mistakes, why worry
about one or two components that may or may not have been damaged by
ESD?

ST

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Boman33 <boman33@...
<mailto:boman33%40vinland.com> > wrote:
> You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.
>
> Bertho
>
>
>
> From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
>
>
>
> Come on people, stay realistic.
> Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
> anything like that.
> Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB
> holder.
>
> In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> even if you take no measures at all.
> ---<snip
>
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Boman33

I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and the
ESD problems exist.  What you and others fail to take into account is the
environment.

If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity, tile
floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem.  Then
someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and
rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.

 

Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in either
direction.

Bertho
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 03:49



What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?

We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
slowed down with ESD measures?

Having used only minimal ESD precautions all my life and never seen a
failure, and frequently testing designs with ESD guns gives me some
confidence that there is a certain amount of unwarranted hype
associated with this topic.

Would you care to elaborate using specific examples of how you damaged
components with ESD?
For some reason peope never can back their fear up with specific
incidents when I prompt them. The examples should _not_ involve either
a huge production quantity (where the statistics get you), or very
early CMOS components (which were much more sensitive).

This is similar to the temperature when soldering issue. There are old
books and stuff that suggest clamping heatsink tweezers onto
semiconductors while soldering, and generally put the fear of god into
beginners. When they ask for advise I have to first disabuse them of
the notion that components will just blow up as soon as they get
slightly warm. Modern components can withstand soldering heat to an
amazing degree.

It is not helpful to overrate risk, it just puts people off when they
really should be getting stuck into some hands on experience. I let
the magic smoke out so many times with stupid mistakes, why worry
about one or two components that may or may not have been damaged by
ESD?

ST

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Boman33 <boman33@...
<mailto:boman33%40vinland.com> > wrote:
> You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.
>
> Bertho
>
>
>
> From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
>
>
>
> Come on people, stay realistic.
> Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
> anything like that.
> Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB
> holder.
>
> In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> even if you take no measures at all.
> ---<snip





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Sudipta Ghose

Hi all!
I use wood instead.
73s,
SG
VU3TKG

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Boman33 <boman33@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and the
> ESD problems exist. What you and others fail to take into account is the
> environment.
>
> If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity,
> tile
> floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem. Then
> someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and
> rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.
>
> Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in either
> direction.
>
> Bertho
>
> From: Stefan Trethan Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 03:49
>
>
> What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?
>
> We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
> almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
> Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
> slowed down with ESD measures?
>
> Having used only minimal ESD precautions all my life and never seen a
> failure, and frequently testing designs with ESD guns gives me some
> confidence that there is a certain amount of unwarranted hype
> associated with this topic.
>
> Would you care to elaborate using specific examples of how you damaged
> components with ESD?
> For some reason peope never can back their fear up with specific
> incidents when I prompt them. The examples should _not_ involve either
> a huge production quantity (where the statistics get you), or very
> early CMOS components (which were much more sensitive).
>
> This is similar to the temperature when soldering issue. There are old
> books and stuff that suggest clamping heatsink tweezers onto
> semiconductors while soldering, and generally put the fear of god into
> beginners. When they ask for advise I have to first disabuse them of
> the notion that components will just blow up as soon as they get
> slightly warm. Modern components can withstand soldering heat to an
> amazing degree.
>
> It is not helpful to overrate risk, it just puts people off when they
> really should be getting stuck into some hands on experience. I let
> the magic smoke out so many times with stupid mistakes, why worry
> about one or two components that may or may not have been damaged by
> ESD?
>
> ST
>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Boman33 <boman33@...
> <mailto:boman33%40vinland.com> > wrote:
> > You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.
> >
> > Bertho
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Stefan Trethan Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
> >
> >
> >
> > Come on people, stay realistic.
> > Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
> > anything like that.
> > Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his homemade PCB
> > holder.
> >
> > In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> > notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> > even if you take no measures at all.
> > ---<snip
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>



-- 
One of those ... ...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Dave

There used to be a local component retailer (those were the days) who sold
to amateurs. He was often asked about the effects of ESD when folks observed
the precautions he took when decanted CMOS onto condictive foam, or wrapped
it in foil. 

When asked he would un-earth himself, remove the CMOS chips from his Iambic
Keyer and rub them on his jumper or shirt and generally mis-handle them. He
would then re-insert them in the keyer and demonstrate that it still worked.
He then told the buyer not to try that at home and to follow the necessary
precautions but with confidence. He did this many times and the keyer always
worked afterwards, and he tells me he never had to replace the chips. I
think they were "A" series CMOS which are pretty static sensitive.

Now I do live in Manchester England which was a cotton spinning town because
of the damp atmosphere so its hard to get a real good zap going, but I do
think if you take reasonable care your are very ulikley to blow a modern
device with static.

Dave.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stefan Trethan
> Sent: 24 December 2011 08:49
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder
> 
> 
> What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?
> 
> We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
> almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
> Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
> slowed down with ESD measures?
> 
> Having used only minimal ESD precautions all my life and never seen a
> failure, and frequently testing designs with ESD guns gives me some
> confidence that there is a certain amount of unwarranted hype
> associated with this topic.
> 
> Would you care to elaborate using specific examples of how you damaged
> components with ESD?
> For some reason peope never can back their fear up with specific
> incidents when I prompt them. The examples should _not_ involve either
> a huge production quantity (where the statistics get you), or very
> early CMOS components (which were much more sensitive).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is similar to the temperature when soldering issue. There are old
> books and stuff that suggest clamping heatsink tweezers onto
> semiconductors while soldering, and generally put the fear of god into
> beginners. When they ask for advise I have to first disabuse them of
> the notion that components will just blow up as soon as they get
> slightly warm. Modern components can withstand soldering heat to an
> amazing degree.
> 
> It is not helpful to overrate risk, it just puts people off when they
> really should be getting stuck into some hands on experience. I let
> the magic smoke out so many times with stupid mistakes, why worry
> about one or two components that may or may not have been damaged by
> ESD?
> 
> ST
> 
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Boman33 <boman33@...> wrote:
> > You might be lucky but do not spread bad info.
> >
> > Bertho
> >
> >
> >
> > From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
> >
> >
> >
> > Come on people, stay realistic.
> > Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft or
> > anything like that.
> > Nor is he going to run thousands of boards a day from his 
> homemade PCB
> > holder.
> >
> > In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> > notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> > even if you take no measures at all.
> > ---<snip
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Stefan Trethan

There are about a gazillion reasons why the milling machine controller
might go haywire, such as a bad solder joint or because someone forgot
a decoupling capacitor. In my opinion the chance for that to be caused
by ESD damage is so small, I rather put the effort into building a
lexan enclosure that will catch the flying tool bits or invest the
money in personal protection equipment for mechanical hazards.

I understand why you would want to be fastidious about ESD damage in a
semiconductor plant, you don't know where the parts will end up and
must meet the quality requirements of all customers. But you don't
need six-sigma quality if you make some circuit at home or even
commercial prototypes. The other error factors such as improper
soldering, faulty design, etc. will far outweigh any chance of ESD
damage. Don't confuse the quality standards of industrial mass
production with someone soldering something together on his bench.

I understand that ESD damage may not show any immediate signs, but
even the cases where semiconductors have failed "for no apparent
reason" are exceedingly rare. There just aren't any significant number
of parts failing, so there is no possible payback for any measures
taken.


Now, any more examples of even suspected ESD damage anyone? Again, no
production line stories please! Home shop or development lab only, I
do not want to argue about one-in-a-million events.


ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 10:39 AM, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:

> Not everyone who builds PCBs at home builds frivolous projects that do no
> harm when they fail.  A failed milling machine controller that has the
> table move erratically destroys a tool bit snapping it off and flinging it
> across the room or into someone is always a possibility,  even if small.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Dylan Smith

El 24/12/11 08:48, Stefan Trethan escribi\ufffd:
> What's wrong with staying realistic about risk?
>
> We could do all sorts of things safer - say reduce traffic deaths to
> almost zero by driving no faster than 20mph, and yet we do not do it.
> Here no lifes are at risk - just $1 components, why let yourself be
> slowed down with ESD measures?

Where do you live, though? Somewhere maritime or inland?

As others have pointed out where you live has a great influence on how 
easily you can generate static. Where I live the air is almost always 
saturated (so it seems), it's so damp here especially in the winter if I 
don't clean my car, it doesn't merely get dirty, it actually gets algae 
and lichen growing on it, and the lane behind my house is a quagmire 
from November through to April (even if we get a week without rain, it 
still doesn't dry out). I have to be really, really trying to generate 
static electricity at all. So no, I don't particularly worry about static.

I lived in North Carolina for a while (during a winter which was mostly 
very dry) and had to close car doors by the glass because if I didn't do 
so, I would get a very painful static electric shock. Even just getting 
in and out of the car would do it, I didn't need to drive anywhere, the 
car seat against a part man-made-fibre coat would be enough. If I had 
been handling components there, I dare say I would have had to have been 
very careful about static.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Stefan Trethan

Inland, 70% average humidity outdoors. My car shocks me too,  I also
only close the door by the glass. I think the whole car is charged up
relative to the road, since I don't get a shock touching anything
while my feet are still inside.

Yes it's plausible climate would have a big influence. I get into this
discussion every few months, you'd think eventually there would be
someone living in a desert reporting actual problems, but it's always
just conjecture. I'm not convinced even in the worst conditions the
failure rate would be detectable against other factors, since I have
heard of no such reports.

My reasoning is if I need to do something, it should be prompted by
some kind of problem not just because someone says so. Otherwise I
would end up doing all sorts of unnecessary stuff that may have been
mighty useful for someone somewhere but doesn't apply to my situation.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Dylan Smith <dyls@...> wrote:
>
> Where do you live, though? Somewhere maritime or inland?
>
> As others have pointed out where you live has a great influence on how
> easily you can generate static. Where I live the air is almost always
> saturated (so it seems), it's so damp here especially in the winter if I
> don't clean my car, it doesn't merely get dirty, it actually gets algae
> and lichen growing on it, and the lane behind my house is a quagmire
> from November through to April (even if we get a week without rain, it
> still doesn't dry out). I have to be really, really trying to generate
> static electricity at all. So no, I don't particularly worry about static.
>
> I lived in North Carolina for a while (during a winter which was mostly
> very dry) and had to close car doors by the glass because if I didn't do
> so, I would get a very painful static electric shock. Even just getting
> in and out of the car would do it, I didn't need to drive anywhere, the
> car seat against a part man-made-fibre coat would be enough. If I had
> been handling components there, I dare say I would have had to have been
> very careful about static.
>
>

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-24 by alex4459jopiklal44

,> Now, any more examples of even suspected ESD damage anyone? Again, no
> production line stories please! Home shop or development lab only, I
> do not want to argue about one-in-a-million events.
> 
> 
hello Stefan
I agree with you way of looking at the risc contra the cost and more.
I have seen the esd damage ,its ,maybe 20 years ago where I tried to make a memory for my scope..I used some RAM ,think but cannot rememeber if they was called 2114 .. anyway each time I had somting working and needed a break then walking over the carpet to my workplace and turn on the power again.. the RAM did not work any longer. and later I have been convinced that this was ESD problem.. and just 6 years ago I was working in the laboratory at a university.. we had static floors and static tables.. it seemed as time had stood still there for last 50 years.. it is still so.. a group had a straingauge connected to a opamp with FET input.. a standard type. they came walking over the floor in big rubber boots and turnend power on..  the board did not work.. they replaced the opamp,telling me that they had grown used to this.. and I told them about esd.. 
IF I did not had experienced this events, maybe I would not belive that esd realy can be a problem.. and now I only have a antistatic mat on my table and use the old cmos series often and I have not had any faults that I think was from ESD
alex
and merry christmas to all of you

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder

2011-12-24 by John Dammeyer

My last word on the subject.  My examples were obviously fabricated to try
and demonstrate that just because you don't see a problem immediately
doesn't mean there isn't one and the results could be a disaster.
Suggesting a plastic shield for my mill example shows you've deliberately
missed the point.

Your own examples are typically anecdotal without any evidence other than
it's never happened to me or anyone I know so it must be alright.

I've seen micro-photographs of ic's that have been opened up after
exposure to static electricity and not just the door snapping carpet
generated kind.  The devices are clearly damaged.  It's true they are
better than the late 70's but it's still important to take precautions.

The companies recommending using reasonable anti-static procedures are not
just the companies who sell the anti-static materials but all companies
who have an interest in seeing parts and products function correctly.
Fortunately for us they determine what works and what doesn't so that we
don't have to suffer the consequences.

For each example I'm sure you'll have another 'story' of how we don't need
to worry. I've said enough about it since arguing the religion of "no anti
static handling needed" based on "it's never happened to me" is rather
pointless.

John Dammeyer

Automation Artisans Inc.
http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/
Ph. 1 250 544 4950
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Stefan Trethan
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 3:16 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB holder




There are about a gazillion reasons why the milling machine controller
might go haywire, such as a bad solder joint or because someone forgot
a decoupling capacitor. In my opinion the chance for that to be caused
by ESD damage is so small, I rather put the effort into building a
lexan enclosure that will catch the flying tool bits or invest the
money in personal protection equipment for mechanical hazards.

I understand why you would want to be fastidious about ESD damage in a
semiconductor plant, you don't know where the parts will end up and
must meet the quality requirements of all customers. But you don't
need six-sigma quality if you make some circuit at home or even
commercial prototypes. The other error factors such as improper
soldering, faulty design, etc. will far outweigh any chance of ESD
damage. Don't confuse the quality standards of industrial mass
production with someone soldering something together on his bench.

I understand that ESD damage may not show any immediate signs, but
even the cases where semiconductors have failed "for no apparent
reason" are exceedingly rare. There just aren't any significant number
of parts failing, so there is no possible payback for any measures
taken.

Now, any more examples of even suspected ESD damage anyone? Again, no
production line stories please! Home shop or development lab only, I
do not want to argue about one-in-a-million events.

ST

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 10:39 AM, John Dammeyer <johnd@...
<mailto:johnd%40autoartisans.com> > wrote:

> Not everyone who builds PCBs at home builds frivolous projects that do
no
> harm when they fail.  A failed milling machine controller that has the
> table move erratically destroys a tool bit snapping it off and flinging
it
> across the room or into someone is always a possibility,  even if small.
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-24 by AlienRelics

OK, so you'll only accept solid evidence from people who don't have the equipment nor money to really investigate failures.

Got it.

So, any hobbyists out there with an electron microscope in their garage?

I consider not taking ESD precautions for most modern equipment like I do crossing the street blindfolded. Most streets, I'm probably going to be OK most of the time. Other streets, I'll almost certainly die. But I don't want to get hit by a car, so I take off the blindfold.

So when I'm working on a computer, I set boards inside the case or into an antistatic bag rather than setting them on a table or on a carpeted floor. I keep my hand or a bare arm on the case. When I worked on TVs, I wasn't nearly as careful until they started using CMOS chips. When I'm building something, it depends on the parts involved. A TTL chip or TTL 555 timer? My wood bench is fine. If the part is CMOS or expensive, I put more care into ESD protection.

But I'm not covering myself in foil. I just make sure I touch the bench before I touch the part. If I am working on an ESD dissipative mat, I always touch the mat first.

I just look a little OCD but it really isn't an inconvenience.

Lots of time and effort has been put into toughening ICs against ESD but they aren't entirely bulletproof. So what is wrong with taking a few precautions?

Rub your shirtsleeve against a piece of plastic you are considering as a PCB holder, then see if it can make the hair on the back of your hand rise up. Some plastics are so bad I can hear them crackle as they discharge to my hand.

There are about a gazillion ways to die, so put on your blindfold because it is time to cross the street.

BTW, I've not read all of this thread yet but I see two non-statistical non-production line stories of what looks like ESD failure. But there were no accompanying electron microscope images.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> There are about a gazillion reasons why the milling machine controller
> might go haywire,
snip
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Now, any more examples of even suspected ESD damage anyone? Again, no
> production line stories please! Home shop or development lab only, I
> do not want to argue about one-in-a-million events.
> 
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 10:39 AM, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:
> 
> > Not everyone who builds PCBs at home builds frivolous projects that do no
> > harm when they fail.  A failed milling machine controller that has the
> > table move erratically destroys a tool bit snapping it off and flinging it
> > across the room or into someone is always a possibility,  even if small.
> >
>

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-24 by AlienRelics

Amend that to unvarnished wood floors. ;') Asphalt tiles or ceramic tiles are good insulators.

I do agree with what you are saying.

To paraphrase another poster, I've never been hit by lightning but I still won't go swimming or kite flying during a storm. On the other hand, I've been out backpacking and I don't bring lightning rods or a Faraday cage with me.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33" <boman33@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and the
> ESD problems exist.  What you and others fail to take into account is the
> environment.
> 
> If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity, tile
> floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem.  Then
> someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and
> rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.
> 
>  
> 
> Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in either
> direction.
> 
> Bertho
> 
>

OT:RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-24 by MIKE DURKIN

Iv been shocked twice by lightning, second one I actually saw/seen it. Kinda like a broccoli head and shaft ... but upsidedown and white. It looked like 3 blocks away and didn't look to have struck ground. Was climbing a single flight of stairs up to my friends porch .... had a utility feed over the porch ... felt like someone hit me over the head with a stainless steel whip or small rod. Hurt but not bad.

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: alienrelics@...
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 17:50:14 +0000
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder














 



  


    
      
      
      Amend that to unvarnished wood floors. ;') Asphalt tiles or ceramic tiles are good insulators.



I do agree with what you are saying.



To paraphrase another poster, I've never been hit by lightning but I still won't go swimming or kite flying during a storm. On the other hand, I've been out backpacking and I don't bring lightning rods or a Faraday cage with me.



Steve Greenfield AE7HD



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33" <boman33@...> wrote:

>

> I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and the

> ESD problems exist.  What you and others fail to take into account is the

> environment.

> 

> If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity, tile

> floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem.  Then

> someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and

> rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.

> 

>  

> 

> Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in either

> direction.

> 

> Bertho

> 

>  






    
     

    
    






  






 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-24 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 6:40 PM, AlienRelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> OK, so you'll only accept solid evidence from people who don't have the equipment nor money to really investigate failures.
>
> Got it.

The goal was to show how significant (or insignificant) this problem
is in a typical hobby or laboratory situation. There is no doubt that
ESD can potentially cause damage, but it is only noticeable when you
have pushed the other error parameters to extremes as well (say by
using machine soldering instead of hand soldering to give just one
example).

So far it does seem to happen once every 10 years, on average, per
person. I admit this is a rate at which I might have completely
overlooked my own alloted number of ESD failures.

> I consider not taking ESD precautions for most modern equipment like I do crossing the street blindfolded. Most streets, I'm probably going to be OK most of the time. Other streets, I'll almost certainly die. But I don't want to get hit by a car, so I take off the blindfold.
>

Yes, it's a risk, like crossing the street. I'd estimate it similar in
probability to getting hit while crossing the street without a
blindfold, but your reality may vary.

I'll still keep recommending people to cross the street if they want
the other side - building a pedestrian bridge or underground crossing
everywhere is just not cost effective, even if less people would get
run over.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by Steve

Hi all,

Part of my motivation for seeking advice regarding ESD practices is the 
failure of a circuit I constructed a year or two ago. It had a handful 
of 74ACT- something-or-other latches on it. The PCB functioned as 
expected for a good while. Following some interfacing with other PCB's 
and the associated handling, connecting, disconnecting, etc., the latch 
PCB failed. I eventually determined that two of the latches were bad, 
replaced all of them and was back in business.

Discussions with the engineer who designed the circuit revealed that I 
was not the first to go down this path. The engineer, involved in this 
type of work professionally and well experienced, thought my and other 
failures to be ESD related. I take that advice as his best guess based 
on his experience -- I'm pretty sure he never examined one of the failed 
latches with an electron microscope to confirm ESD issues. That incident 
made me somewhat more ESD conscious than previously and hence my 
questions of this group.

Another aspect to consider is the time and test equipment needed to 
trouble shoot a non-working PCB, some of which can be pretty complex.  
I'd rather not take the time to trouble shoot and I may not have the 
signal generator, scope, logic analyzer, or whatever to effectively find 
the problem. Taking a modicum of ESD precautions seems a reasonable 
tradeoff, especially if I already have the ESD workbench mat and wrist 
strap.

At any rate, this is (for me) an interesting thread from the perspective 
that I am not a professional PCB design/build guy, nor am I particularly 
well experienced in at-home construction techniques. I'm learning. I 
appreciate the advice and thoughts offered.

Steve K8JQ

On 12/24/2011 12:50 PM, AlienRelics wrote:
> Amend that to unvarnished wood floors. ;') Asphalt tiles or ceramic tiles are good insulators.
>
> I do agree with what you are saying.
>
> To paraphrase another poster, I've never been hit by lightning but I still won't go swimming or kite flying during a storm. On the other hand, I've been out backpacking and I don't bring lightning rods or a Faraday cage with me.
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
> --- InHomebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33"<boman33@...>  wrote:
>> I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and the
>> ESD problems exist.  What you and others fail to take into account is the
>> environment.
>>
>> If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity, tile
>> floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem.  Then
>> someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and
>> rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in either
>> direction.
>>
>> Bertho
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- 
Read The Patriot Post    Vertitas vos Liberabit
http://patriotpost.us/subscription/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by Pete B

I am a degreed electrical engineer who has done both analog and digitial
design for over 30 years.  There is nothing to be debated here, you must
use ESD protection with any semiconductors or other ESD sensitive
components - end of discussion.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/petebasel

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Part of my motivation for seeking advice regarding ESD practices is the
> failure of a circuit I constructed a year or two ago. It had a handful
> of 74ACT- something-or-other latches on it. The PCB functioned as
> expected for a good while. Following some interfacing with other PCB's
> and the associated handling, connecting, disconnecting, etc., the latch
> PCB failed. I eventually determined that two of the latches were bad,
> replaced all of them and was back in business.
>
> Discussions with the engineer who designed the circuit revealed that I
> was not the first to go down this path. The engineer, involved in this
> type of work professionally and well experienced, thought my and other
> failures to be ESD related. I take that advice as his best guess based
> on his experience -- I'm pretty sure he never examined one of the failed
> latches with an electron microscope to confirm ESD issues. That incident
> made me somewhat more ESD conscious than previously and hence my
> questions of this group.
>
> Another aspect to consider is the time and test equipment needed to
> trouble shoot a non-working PCB, some of which can be pretty complex.
> I'd rather not take the time to trouble shoot and I may not have the
> signal generator, scope, logic analyzer, or whatever to effectively find
> the problem. Taking a modicum of ESD precautions seems a reasonable
> tradeoff, especially if I already have the ESD workbench mat and wrist
> strap.
>
> At any rate, this is (for me) an interesting thread from the perspective
> that I am not a professional PCB design/build guy, nor am I particularly
> well experienced in at-home construction techniques. I'm learning. I
> appreciate the advice and thoughts offered.
>
> Steve K8JQ
>
> On 12/24/2011 12:50 PM, AlienRelics wrote:
> > Amend that to unvarnished wood floors. ;') Asphalt tiles or ceramic
> tiles are good insulators.
> >
> > I do agree with what you are saying.
> >
> > To paraphrase another poster, I've never been hit by lightning but I
> still won't go swimming or kite flying during a storm. On the other hand,
> I've been out backpacking and I don't bring lightning rods or a Faraday
> cage with me.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >
> > --- InHomebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33"<boman33@...> wrote:
> >> I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and
> the
> >> ESD problems exist. What you and others fail to take into account is the
> >> environment.
> >>
> >> If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity,
> tile
> >> floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem. Then
> >> someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and
> >> rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in
> either
> >> direction.
> >>
> >> Bertho
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Read The Patriot Post Vertitas vos Liberabit
> http://patriotpost.us/subscription/
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by Benjamin Blumer

It is compelling to have someone with credentials stand on one side of the
fence.  But I think it would be much more compelling, and more satisfying,
to have said person explain their reasoning.

Sent from my iPad

On 2011-12-25, at 7:01 AM, Pete B <pete.basel@...> wrote:



I am a degreed electrical engineer who has done both analog and digitial
design for over 30 years. There is nothing to be debated here, you must
use ESD protection with any semiconductors or other ESD sensitive
components - end of discussion.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/petebasel

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Part of my motivation for seeking advice regarding ESD practices is the
> failure of a circuit I constructed a year or two ago. It had a handful
> of 74ACT- something-or-other latches on it. The PCB functioned as
> expected for a good while. Following some interfacing with other PCB's
> and the associated handling, connecting, disconnecting, etc., the latch
> PCB failed. I eventually determined that two of the latches were bad,
> replaced all of them and was back in business.
>
> Discussions with the engineer who designed the circuit revealed that I
> was not the first to go down this path. The engineer, involved in this
> type of work professionally and well experienced, thought my and other
> failures to be ESD related. I take that advice as his best guess based
> on his experience -- I'm pretty sure he never examined one of the failed
> latches with an electron microscope to confirm ESD issues. That incident
> made me somewhat more ESD conscious than previously and hence my
> questions of this group.
>
> Another aspect to consider is the time and test equipment needed to
> trouble shoot a non-working PCB, some of which can be pretty complex.
> I'd rather not take the time to trouble shoot and I may not have the
> signal generator, scope, logic analyzer, or whatever to effectively find
> the problem. Taking a modicum of ESD precautions seems a reasonable
> tradeoff, especially if I already have the ESD workbench mat and wrist
> strap.
>
> At any rate, this is (for me) an interesting thread from the perspective
> that I am not a professional PCB design/build guy, nor am I particularly
> well experienced in at-home construction techniques. I'm learning. I
> appreciate the advice and thoughts offered.
>
> Steve K8JQ
>
> On 12/24/2011 12:50 PM, AlienRelics wrote:
> > Amend that to unvarnished wood floors. ;') Asphalt tiles or ceramic
> tiles are good insulators.
> >
> > I do agree with what you are saying.
> >
> > To paraphrase another poster, I've never been hit by lightning but I
> still won't go swimming or kite flying during a storm. On the other hand,
> I've been out backpacking and I don't bring lightning rods or a Faraday
> cage with me.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >
> > --- InHomebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33"<boman33@...> wrote:
> >> I am running production lines and supervising two engineering labs and
> the
> >> ESD problems exist. What you and others fail to take into account is
the
> >> environment.
> >>
> >> If someone is in South Florida without air-conditioning= high humidity,
> tile
> >> floors, and walking barefoot, there is never going to be a problem.
Then
> >> someone up north in the winter with low humidity, carpeted floors, and
> >> rubber soled shoes, there will be lots of problems.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hobbyists need to be realistic and practical without overdoing it in
> either
> >> direction.
> >>
> >> Bertho
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Read The Patriot Post Vertitas vos Liberabit
> http://patriotpost.us/subscription/
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by Stefan Trethan

People who say "because that's just how it is" or "end of discussion"
as a rule are not worth my time talking to.

I can't find any good statistics on ESD damage. There was one
reference to a comparative test that showed a reduction in production
rejects of about 1%, but it comes as an example out of a book
promoting ESD measures and there are no details about the type of
circuit or handling. It's not an easy experiment to make - how do you
create typical handling and how do you prove a part is damaged or not?
Once you introduced ESD measures you create no more data -
before/after comparisions are difficult since ESD measures are often
accompanied with other improvements in handling, such as preventing
mechanical damage.

I store all parts in (cheaper)  non-esd safe containers (bins and
drawers made from polystyrene or polypropylene) and have never found
one that wouldn't work, that I could recall now. Same for the tools,
they are slightly cheaper in the non-ESD version so I use those.
Adding up the cost for ESD safe environment would easily run into
several hundred $, so that doesn't seem cost effective to me.

Half way measures can be more dangerous than nothing, for example
walking with regular shoes on ESD flooring builds much more charge
than on regular flooring, but of course there are some effective
measures that are also free, such as first touching the chassis or
ground.

By the way, did you know they sell wireless ESD wrist straps now?
<http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Unlimited-ACC-1410-Wireless-Static/dp/B000A1E6FY>
Now make up your own opinion about _that_.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Benjamin Blumer <b3nzilla@...> wrote:
> It is compelling to have someone with credentials stand on one side of the
> fence.  But I think it would be much more compelling, and more satisfying,
> to have said person explain their reasoning.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by within walking distance

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> People who say "because that's just how it is" or "end of discussion"
> as a rule are not worth my time talking to.

Some things are pretty much self evident.  Using the automobile example, you might say that a car has to have brakes, end of discussion.  Just as don't cross the street blindfolded, end of discussion.  
To an electrical engineer, this might be self evident.  Considering the amount of silvery antistatic envelopes, pink foam, pink bubble wrap, and black conductive foam that I have been sent with components that I have ordered, it seems self evident to the manufacturers and sellers.  

> From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
>
 > Come on people, stay realistic.
 > Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft
 > or anything like that.
Whether it's a controller for an aircraft or a blinking led for a child, he doesn't want a failure in either case.
 >
 > In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
 > notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
 > even if you take no measures at all.
 
I use the SMD to DIP adapters.  This gives me the advantage of being able to test the SMD device before placing it in the finished circuit.  I've had more than my share of devices that did not sit correctly on the pads and therefore did not work.  But in all this time there have been two devices that were soldered exactly right (close up lens on digital camera to check) , that did not work right.  One part did not respond at all and one part had some gates working and some not.  These both happened during the winter (low humidity) while I was working in a carpeted room.  The same circumstances where petting my cat will give us a shock.  I now have a dedicated wire running from the metal legs on my table to a nearby cold water pipe.

> Mike KC7NOA wrote….
>
>I wouldn't use it ... I would pintch a stop sign for a flat aluminum > surface first!!

Taking apart old electronic devices that have been thrown away, like fax machines, can yield aluminum for making this.  An old, large UPS might even have some giant heat sinks where the fins could hold circuit boards.

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by clausundercover

In over 1 year of playing with microcontrollers and doing all kinds of bad things to them (not minding ESD, inadvertently shorting pins, sloppy soldering, etc.) I have burnt exactly 1 chip valued at $6 and I think that was due to writing the wrong fuses. 
For statistics purposes, humidity is 30-50%, I'm wearing cloth slippers with plastic soles, and the floor is varnished. 

Now, I've been playing with electronics consistently for 1 year, but I worked in risk management for 6 years. Any discussion where risk is hard to quantify is prone to people taking extreme stances. What's difficult is striking a balance and I guess we have to at least thank Stefan for challenging the traditional view. Make a short visit to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy and identify quite a few appeals to authority in this thread before you hopefully draw the logical conclusion that for the proposed target group (hobbyists) there is indeed a lack of statistical evidence.

Quantifiable loss is a function of loss per event (how much money, time or annoyance I waste due to ESD risk materializing) and frequency/probability of occurrence (how many times ESD risk does materialize). That's why when once in a few years when building my computer or disassembling my laptop (hundreds of euro devices) I take all ESD precautions because I can't afford the risk. Similarly when working with mains I take all possible precautions including having someone in the room at all times.

But when playing with my $5 TI launchpad I stay on my leather recliner with my laptop on one side and with the USB board hanging next to it. I would regret my convenience more by obeying the "rules" then having my board toasted once.

I won't sweat over the principial concern that I am going to build an unsafe machine. If I depend on the safety of my build I am hiring someone to do the job.

In a business situation the picture changes radically. I would probably go with the conventional wisdom there without questioning it if I afford the cost.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "within walking distance" <wkehr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > People who say "because that's just how it is" or "end of discussion"
> > as a rule are not worth my time talking to.
> 
> Some things are pretty much self evident.  Using the automobile example, you might say that a car has to have brakes, end of discussion.  Just as don't cross the street blindfolded, end of discussion.  
> To an electrical engineer, this might be self evident.  Considering the amount of silvery antistatic envelopes, pink foam, pink bubble wrap, and black conductive foam that I have been sent with components that I have ordered, it seems self evident to the manufacturers and sellers.  
> 
> > From:  Stefan Trethan   Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
> >
>  > Come on people, stay realistic.
>  > Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft
>  > or anything like that.
> Whether it's a controller for an aircraft or a blinking led for a child, he doesn't want a failure in either case.
>  >
>  > In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
>  > notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
>  > even if you take no measures at all.
>  
> I use the SMD to DIP adapters.  This gives me the advantage of being able to test the SMD device before placing it in the finished circuit.  I've had more than my share of devices that did not sit correctly on the pads and therefore did not work.  But in all this time there have been two devices that were soldered exactly right (close up lens on digital camera to check) , that did not work right.  One part did not respond at all and one part had some gates working and some not.  These both happened during the winter (low humidity) while I was working in a carpeted room.  The same circumstances where petting my cat will give us a shock.  I now have a dedicated wire running from the metal legs on my table to a nearby cold water pipe.
> 
> > Mike KC7NOA wrote�.
> >
> >I wouldn't use it ... I would pintch a stop sign for a flat aluminum > surface first!!
> 
> Taking apart old electronic devices that have been thrown away, like fax machines, can yield aluminum for making this.  An old, large UPS might even have some giant heat sinks where the fins could hold circuit boards.
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-25 by John Dammeyer

Interesting link.  After reading it I think the comment "thank Stefan for
challenging the traditional view"  has me wondering whether 'traditional'
as used the sentence is in it self a mechanism of justifying a valid
debate where there isn't one.  ESD and protection from it doesn't have
anything to do with tradition.  It has to do with sound engineering
practices.  Anytime we deviate from those practices we take the chance
that things go wrong.

For example out here on the west coast of BC a number of years ago one
could have made the statement that condominiums and other building don't
leak and rot.  And that was true until the architects and builders stopped
following the standard engineering practices and began taking short cuts
and doing designs without thought of repercussions.  The arguments against
that type of building practice was ignored.  Inspectors who should have
known better looked the other way.  The result was a a huge financial loss
to a large number of people.  The total cost will probably never be known.

I too have my PIC demo boards hung over the side of my easy chair tied to
the USB port along with the ICD-3 also tied in. I understand that I'm
taking a risk that I may damage the processor.  I'm fine with that.  But
clearly I'll state again.  I understand I'm taking a risk.

So here's the problem.  One hardly hears about ESD related problems
anymore because the majority from the chip fabrication end to the final
product use the proper procedures.  Therefore it appears as if the risks
aren't that high because it doesn't make the news.  I remember hearing a
story that Apple-II computers were failing at a 25% level once they
reached the customers.  Needless to say Apple was concerned.  Turns out
the plastic bag they slipped around the computer was damaging it.  I don't
know if it was the act of putting it into the bag or taking it out of the
bag.  In either case, Apple changed to a an anti-static bag and their
failure rate dropped to 0%.

Also the arguments have been rather black and white.  For instance, a
comment I made earlier that hasn't been referenced or addressed is that
the failures from ESD aren't always total failure issues.  The devices
aren't always damaged to the point where they fail 100% and that's a hard
fault to quantify.  For example, the device someone is using is rated from
-25C to +85C.  It's sitting in your home hobby project and never sees a
temperature outside the range of +10C to +35C.  However, the ESD damage
could for example cause the device to function erratically or unreliably
at -5C.

So my point is if you want to do as I do, and dangle the project over the
arm of the easy chair the do so.  But to use that experience as a
generalization and advice to new people entering the electronics field
that in fact ESD protection is not important and that it's a view based on
traditions with all the connotations that the word 'traditions' implies
brings me out of the woodwork to reply.

John Dammeyer


Automation Artisans Inc.
http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/
Ph. 1 250 544 4950
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of clausundercover
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 2:24 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder




In over 1 year of playing with microcontrollers and doing all kinds of bad
things to them (not minding ESD, inadvertently shorting pins, sloppy
soldering, etc.) I have burnt exactly 1 chip valued at $6 and I think that
was due to writing the wrong fuses.
For statistics purposes, humidity is 30-50%, I'm wearing cloth slippers
with plastic soles, and the floor is varnished.

Now, I've been playing with electronics consistently for 1 year, but I
worked in risk management for 6 years. Any discussion where risk is hard
to quantify is prone to people taking extreme stances. What's difficult is
striking a balance and I guess we have to at least thank Stefan for
challenging the traditional view. Make a short visit to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy and identify quite a few
appeals to authority in this thread before you hopefully draw the logical
conclusion that for the proposed target group (hobbyists) there is indeed
a lack of statistical evidence.

Quantifiable loss is a function of loss per event (how much money, time or
annoyance I waste due to ESD risk materializing) and frequency/probability
of occurrence (how many times ESD risk does materialize). That's why when
once in a few years when building my computer or disassembling my laptop
(hundreds of euro devices) I take all ESD precautions because I can't
afford the risk. Similarly when working with mains I take all possible
precautions including having someone in the room at all times.

But when playing with my $5 TI launchpad I stay on my leather recliner
with my laptop on one side and with the USB board hanging next to it. I
would regret my convenience more by obeying the "rules" then having my
board toasted once.

I won't sweat over the principial concern that I am going to build an
unsafe machine. If I depend on the safety of my build I am hiring someone
to do the job.

In a business situation the picture changes radically. I would probably go
with the conventional wisdom there without questioning it if I afford the
cost.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "within walking distance"
<wkehr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > People who say "because that's just how it is" or "end of discussion"
> > as a rule are not worth my time talking to.
>
> Some things are pretty much self evident. Using the automobile example,
you might say that a car has to have brakes, end of discussion. Just as
don't cross the street blindfolded, end of discussion.
> To an electrical engineer, this might be self evident. Considering the
amount of silvery antistatic envelopes, pink foam, pink bubble wrap, and
black conductive foam that I have been sent with components that I have
ordered, it seems self evident to the manufacturers and sellers.
>
> > From: Stefan Trethan Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 02:28
> >
> > Come on people, stay realistic.
> > Steve is most likely not going to make assemblies for an aircraft
> > or anything like that.
> Whether it's a controller for an aircraft or a blinking led for a child,
he doesn't want a failure in either case.
> >
> > In a typical home shop or even development lab setting you'll not
> > notice the effects of ESD measures - there just aren't any failures
> > even if you take no measures at all.
>
> I use the SMD to DIP adapters. This gives me the advantage of being able
to test the SMD device before placing it in the finished circuit. I've had
more than my share of devices that did not sit correctly on the pads and
therefore did not work. But in all this time there have been two devices
that were soldered exactly right (close up lens on digital camera to
check) , that did not work right. One part did not respond at all and one
part had some gates working and some not. These both happened during the
winter (low humidity) while I was working in a carpeted room. The same
circumstances where petting my cat will give us a shock. I now have a
dedicated wire running from the metal legs on my table to a nearby cold
water pipe.
>
> > Mike KC7NOA wrote�.
> >
> >I wouldn't use it ... I would pintch a stop sign for a flat aluminum >
surface first!!
>
> Taking apart old electronic devices that have been thrown away, like fax
machines, can yield aluminum for making this. An old, large UPS might even
have some giant heat sinks where the fins could hold circuit boards.
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by Donald H Locker

I was charged (so to speak) with finding the problem with automotive instrument clusters that were failing a test in a particular facility.  As long as the workers were wearing their static dissipative straps and non-static clothing, and following the proper discharge procedures fitting clusters to the fixtures, 100% of the products worked.  As soon as they slacked in any area, failures rose to about 20%, of which about 5% were permanently dead.  That was a lot of lost product.  Not too many years ago, either.  Three or four.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 8:19:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder
> People who say "because that's just how it is" or "end of discussion"
> as a rule are not worth my time talking to.
> 
> I can't find any good statistics on ESD damage. There was one
> reference to a comparative test that showed a reduction in production
> rejects of about 1%, but it comes as an example out of a book
> promoting ESD measures and there are no details about the type of
> circuit or handling. It's not an easy experiment to make - how do you
> create typical handling and how do you prove a part is damaged or not?
> Once you introduced ESD measures you create no more data -
> before/after comparisions are difficult since ESD measures are often
> accompanied with other improvements in handling, such as preventing
> mechanical damage.
> 
> I store all parts in (cheaper) non-esd safe containers (bins and
> drawers made from polystyrene or polypropylene) and have never found
> one that wouldn't work, that I could recall now. Same for the tools,
> they are slightly cheaper in the non-ESD version so I use those.
> Adding up the cost for ESD safe environment would easily run into
> several hundred $, so that doesn't seem cost effective to me.
> 
> Half way measures can be more dangerous than nothing, for example
> walking with regular shoes on ESD flooring builds much more charge
> than on regular flooring, but of course there are some effective
> measures that are also free, such as first touching the chassis or
> ground.
> 
> By the way, did you know they sell wireless ESD wrist straps now?
> <http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Unlimited-ACC-1410-Wireless-Static/dp/B000A1E6FY>
> Now make up your own opinion about _that_.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Benjamin Blumer <b3nzilla@...>
> wrote:
> > It is compelling to have someone with credentials stand on one side
> > of the
> > fence. But I think it would be much more compelling, and more
> > satisfying,
> > to have said person explain their reasoning.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by Stefan Trethan

What programming environment do you use to program the launchpad?
I have a couple TI launchpads but the software that came from the
download link does not want to compile (error message).
Perhaps you know an alternative?

Regarding the tedious ESD discussion, I see it as cutting corners. We
cut corners here all the time, for example who does really bake parts
before soldering if the moisture sensitivity level would require it?
Why do most homebrew boards use no solder mask?
You do always use laser cut solder paste stencils, right?

It's all a question of risk vs. cost to avoid it (a wire strung to
your metal table leg does not constitute proper ESD safe working
environment). Since the consequences are minor, I see no problem with
avoiding the cost and seeing what happens (which so far is nothing at
all). Works fine for me and many others, your experience may vary.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, clausundercover <cclaus@...> wrote:
> But when playing with my $5 TI launchpad I stay on my leather recliner with my laptop on one side and with the USB board hanging next to it. I would regret my convenience more by obeying the "rules" then having my board toasted once.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by Kevin Impson

Hi Guys,

Has anybody thought about maybe helping the original poster of this thread, by maybe suggestion to him to make the design he showed ESD safe?

Or, I guess everybody can keep making analogies about the problem add not help him.

I myself looked at the design with the UHWM and Nylon and see a simple fix and improvement that I'm going to prototype and then post for everyone in case in one wants to copy it.

Best Regards,

Kevin I.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by Boman33

The design is OK if the only goal is to hold a stationary PCB.

On a practical side it is usually desirable to be able to quickly alternate
between top and bottom and this design is not good for that application.  As
someone already suggested, the Panawise "fork looking" rotating holders are
very good.

Of course use conductive jaws.

Bertho

=============================
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Kevin Impson    Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 06:00
Hi Guys,
Has anybody thought about maybe helping the original poster of this thread,
by maybe suggestion to him to make the design he showed ESD safe?
Or, I guess everybody can keep making analogies about the problem add not
help him.
I myself looked at the design with the UHWM and Nylon and see a simple fix
and improvement that I'm going to prototype and then post for everyone in
case in one wants to copy it.
Best Regards,
Kevin I.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by Donald H Locker

<http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageID=1&page=full&--eqskudatarq=25> is the Panavise model 315 circuit board holder page.  I loved this fixture with a standard base many years ago.  Flexible, secure and surprisingly inexpensive for the functionality provided.  (I used it to wire-wrap a large number of prototype computer boards back in the late 1970's and early 1980's.)  Great tool.  (Mine didn't have the quick-release; I just used the spring jaw to pop boards in and out.)

Regards,
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Boman33" <boman33@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 9:06:24 AM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder
> The design is OK if the only goal is to hold a stationary PCB.
> 
> On a practical side it is usually desirable to be able to quickly
> alternate
> between top and bottom and this design is not good for that
> application. As
> someone already suggested, the Panawise "fork looking" rotating
> holders are
> very good.
> 
> Of course use conductive jaws.
> 
> Bertho
> 
> =============================
> 
> 
> 
> From: Kevin Impson Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 06:00
> Hi Guys,
> Has anybody thought about maybe helping the original poster of this
> thread,
> by maybe suggestion to him to make the design he showed ESD safe?
> Or, I guess everybody can keep making analogies about the problem add
> not
> help him.
> I myself looked at the design with the UHWM and Nylon and see a simple
> fix
> and improvement that I'm going to prototype and then post for everyone
> in
> case in one wants to copy it.
> Best Regards,
> Kevin I.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by clausundercover

I'm using the more familiar eclipse-based code composer studio. There's an automated walkthrough when you open the software. One thing that was strange is that there is no "run" target as usual with eclipse, you have only "debug" and you have to continue the running after deployment.
Write to my e-mail address if you get stuck so that we do not pollute the list.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> What programming environment do you use to program the launchpad?
> I have a couple TI launchpads but the software that came from the
> download link does not want to compile (error message).
> Perhaps you know an alternative?
> 
> Regarding the tedious ESD discussion, I see it as cutting corners. We
> cut corners here all the time, for example who does really bake parts
> before soldering if the moisture sensitivity level would require it?
> Why do most homebrew boards use no solder mask?
> You do always use laser cut solder paste stencils, right?
> 
> It's all a question of risk vs. cost to avoid it (a wire strung to
> your metal table leg does not constitute proper ESD safe working
> environment). Since the consequences are minor, I see no problem with
> avoiding the cost and seeing what happens (which so far is nothing at
> all). Works fine for me and many others, your experience may vary.
> 
> ST
> 
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, clausundercover <cclaus@...> wrote:
> > But when playing with my $5 TI launchpad I stay on my leather recliner with my laptop on one side and with the USB board hanging next to it. I would regret my convenience more by obeying the "rules" then having my board toasted once.
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2011-12-26 by Harvey White

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 09:44:59 +0100, you wrote:

<snip>
>Regarding the tedious ESD discussion, I see it as cutting corners. We
>cut corners here all the time, for example who does really bake parts
>before soldering if the moisture sensitivity level would require it?
>Why do most homebrew boards use no solder mask?
>You do always use laser cut solder paste stencils, right?
>

I don't use solder mask because I have no good way to apply it.  My
laser cutting stencil machine seems to have gone walkies, and never
returned home.  Same with my through hole plating setup.

The major problem used to be with the older CMOS and PMOS circuits,
IIRC.  When I worked for Westinghouse, they enforced anti-static
rules.  They did military work, and the QA department did have photos
of chips where the chip was damaged from an ESD discharge.


>It's all a question of risk vs. cost to avoid it (a wire strung to
>your metal table leg does not constitute proper ESD safe working
>environment). Since the consequences are minor, I see no problem with
>avoiding the cost and seeing what happens (which so far is nothing at
>all). Works fine for me and many others, your experience may vary.

Newer chips have some ESD protection built in, and AFAIK, are
certainly more robust in their resistance to casual ESD discharge
(normal handling).  This normal handling can be as simple as using
grounded soldering equipment, touching the ground on the board you're
working with, using anti-static foam, etc., things we'd consider
normal precautions.

Can you do without them?  Certainly, but you're putting more and more
strain on the inbuilt safety mechanisms, which are only so effective.
Since the environment in mid-Florida is not the same as that in
Arizona, YMMV.

I do have some blue LEDS where the manufacturer warns of ESD damage,
and that damage can be any one of early failure, reduced light output,
or outright failure.

The baking of chips for soldering is required only if you do reflow
soldering, because the entire chip will heat up.  Hand soldering does
not heat the entire chip to that extent (evident on multilead chips,
chip resistors and the like do get that hot).

Hot air desoldering is a bit more stressful, though.  It depends on
whether or not you are using a proper nozzle (assume QFP designs) for
your hot air gun to concentrate only on the leads, or one which heats
the entire chip (such as BGA).

I use the recliner arm as a workbench, at times.  The external circuit
impedances seem to be sufficient to minimize external static pickup
for most of the microprocessor circuits I build.


Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>ST
>
>On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, clausundercover <cclaus@...> wrote:
>> But when playing with my $5 TI launchpad I stay on my leather recliner with my laptop on one side and with the USB board hanging next to it. I would regret my convenience more by obeying the "rules" then having my board toasted once.
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: PCB holder

2012-01-03 by Mike

My apologies for jumping in late in the middle of the discussion. I must admit I have not yet read the rest of responses to this to see if any of my points have already been made.

Pete Base, as some one who has both a physics degree and a Masters degree in Electrical Engineering, I beg to disagree. Because of my physics background, I understand the the 'why' of ESD protection, and while it is the best policy, is not as blanket as you describe.

  First, let use consider what happens when humans generate and discharge static electricity. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the amount of humidity in the air changes its conductivity, and depletes a static charge faster or slower in humid versus dry air. This phenomenon is well known to almost anyone who lives in an area where the indoor relative humidity changes throughout the year.  Sliding or separating surfaces (pulling scotch tape of the dispenser generates a HUGE static potential!) build up charge. Whether that charge is deposited on the semi conductive skin of a person or a non-conductive plastic item, the electrons that accumulate charge the item like a capacitor, and generate a potentially very high voltage. This charge is then rapidly depleted when you touch and 'zap' something.

  The next point to keep in mind is that there are two important measures of how damaging this zap can be, and they are the voltage built up, and the peak current. A piece of charged plastic can have a very high voltage, but because it is so insulating, little current flows when one part of it is discharged. On the other, human bodies are conductive release most of the charge very quickly, hence the painful zap. The true strength of the zap is the product of the current times the voltage, sometimes given in joules for sure protectors, and that is what makes some zaps more painful than others. And just as small capacitors take little charge to build to high voltages, big capacitors can soak a lot of charge before reaching the limiting voltage. And unfortunately, human bodies make fairly good capacitors as far as ESD is concerned.

  Now we look at what happens to the device. The damage is mostly thermal, due to localized overheating of a specific spot or junction, and not the total voltage. However, the amount of power needed to burn a hole through a junction varies wildly with junction type. Modern CMOS devices have gates on insulators and so take very little charge to reach a high enough voltage to suddenly break down and pass all the current, causing a burn through. But power devices are designed to dissipate lots of heat and pass huge currents, and may be completely unaffected. Older devices like discrete diodes and transistors were so huge they took lots of charge to make a small voltage, and did not have the small gap dimensions that allowed reverse breakdown at small voltages, so they could take a walloping big zap and keep on working. 

  To put this in perspective, an unprotected, high density CMOS device, like a CPU or memory chip, may have one or more junctions destroyed by a zap so small you can't feel it, and from as much as 12 inches between your finger and the device. ANd you can also create latent damage that does not cause the chip to fail until some time later. It is for this reason that all electronics companies have massive ESD training programs (I have been through many annual recerts myself). But when it comes to microcontroller chips, with +/- 20 milliamp drivers on almost every pin, and reverse voltage and clamping diodes on EVERY pin, that are safe for handling from any but the most powerful, and painful ESD discharges.

  So statement "There is nothing to be debated here, you must
 use ESD protection with any semiconductors or other ESD sensitive
 components - end of discussion." is the official position of all electronic companies for their assembly lines, but is NOT universally true in ALL situations. Even modern chips can be designed to be ESD resistant to the point that no special handling is required.

 However, you will never know if it truly WAS required until after you destroy something, so stick with things you are confident are self-protecting and cheap to replace (;!

Mike Bushroe

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Blumer <b3nzilla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> It is compelling to have someone with credentials stand on one side of the
> fence.  But I think it would be much more compelling, and more satisfying,
> to have said person explain their reasoning.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 2011-12-25, at 7:01 AM, Pete B <pete.basel@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a degreed electrical engineer who has done both analog and digitial
> design for over 30 years. There is nothing to be debated here, you must
> use ESD protection with any semiconductors or other ESD sensitive
> components - end of discussion.
> 
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/petebasel
>

Re: PCB holder

2012-01-04 by AlienRelics

Very well said.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mbushroe@...> wrote:
>
> My apologies for jumping in late in the middle of the discussion. I must admit I have not yet read the rest of responses to this to see if any of my points have already been made.
> 

...snip...

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder

2012-01-04 by Donald H Locker

And key is if you treat all components as if they are ESD sensitive, then you will never have to wonder if your hardware failed because of ESD.  When doing deeply-embedded firmware, as I often do, that is EXTREMELY valuable.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 8:49:10 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB holder
> Very well said.
> 
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mbushroe@...> wrote:
> >
> > My apologies for jumping in late in the middle of the discussion. I
> > must admit I have not yet read the rest of responses to this to see
> > if any of my points have already been made.
> >
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.