Homebrew PCBs

I accidentally ran across something that appears to help toner transfer. Ran out of alcohol that I use to clean the board before laminating. Tried lacquer thinner, and got great results. I have been able to reduce my laminator temperature from 150 *C to 115 *C. and get perfect transfers. And for the first time able to do .008 width traces, without them falling off.

I use a random orbital sander with 400 grit paper to polish off the corrosion.
Do a first clean with alcohol, to remove the dust left from sanding.
Then put a very liberal amount of lacquer thinner on the board, it looks very wet.
Let the lacquer thinner dry, there is a haze left on the board from the thinner.
Then do two passes thru my laminator at ~115 *C.
Soak paper off, and etch. When the paper is only heated to 115 *C it soaks off much easier.
The toner is a bit softer and needs a little gentler rub when cleaning the paper, but I can still use a plastic scrubby if I don't press too hard.

Would be interested in finding out if others might get similar results, and if any one knows what material may be left behind after the lacquer thinner evaporates, it must have some kind of adhesive quality. What ever it is does not slow the etch time. Lacquer thinner takes the toner off the etched board very quickly too.

RD

Check out the MSDS for the ingredients, and tell us what brand and
type of thinner you used, they vary somewhat.

ST

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Richard <rdheiliger@...> wrote:
> I accidentally ran across something that appears to help toner transfer. Ran out of alcohol that I use to clean the board before laminating. Tried lacquer thinner, and got great results. I have been able to reduce my laminator temperature from 150 *C to 115 *C. and get perfect transfers. And for the first time able to do .008 width traces, without them falling off.
>
> I use a random orbital sander with 400 grit paper to polish off the corrosion.
> Do a first clean with alcohol, to remove the dust left from sanding.
> Then put a very liberal amount of lacquer thinner on the board, it looks very wet.
> Let the lacquer thinner dry, there is a haze left on the board from the thinner.
> Then do two passes thru my laminator at ~115 *C.
> Soak paper off, and etch. When the paper is only heated to 115 *C it soaks off much easier.
> The toner is a bit softer and needs a little gentler rub when cleaning the paper, but I can still use a plastic scrubby if I don't press too hard.
>
> Would be interested in finding out if others might get similar results, and if any one knows what material may be left behind after the lacquer thinner evaporates, it must have some kind of adhesive quality. What ever it is does not slow the etch time. Lacquer thinner takes the toner off the etched board very quickly too.
>
> RD
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard:

I think that there might be a number of compounds that are generally 
called "lacquer thinner".
Can you provide the brand name of the item you are using and where it 
can be obtained in the USA?

I have always had a notion that the bare copper could be "treated" with 
a material that would promote
better adhesion of the toner to the copper, but never investigated.

Sounds like your lacquer treatment might be worth a try.

Thanks,

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
********************

Richard wrote:
>  
>
> I accidentally ran across something that appears to help toner 
> transfer. Ran out of alcohol that I use to clean the board before 
> laminating. Tried lacquer thinner, and got great results. I have been 
> able to reduce my laminator temperature from 150 *C to 115 *C. and get 
> perfect transfers. And for the first time able to do .008 width 
> traces, without them falling off.
>
> I
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 10/12/2011 20:05, Roland Harriston wrote:
> Richard:
>
> I think that there might be a number of compounds that are generally
> called "lacquer thinner".

Lacquer thinner is xylene.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Some laquer thinner might be xylene, but certainly not all.

ST

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

> Lacquer thinner is xylene.
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM

Checked a number of data sheets for lacquer thinner, none are or contain xylene.

My experience using lacquer thinner for non PCB purposes is that it is a more aggressive, more volatile solvent than most.  As such, I could understand why it is more effective in removing organic surface contaminants from the PCB, but as far as leaving a "good" film on the board that promotes adhesion or converting the copper to something that is better sounds suspect.  My guess is that is that it is just a better solvent or what was being used before was contaminated with something that interfered with adhesion.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> On 10/12/2011 20:05, Roland Harriston wrote:
> > Richard:
> >
> > I think that there might be a number of compounds that are generally
> > called "lacquer thinner".
> 
> Lacquer thinner is xylene.
> 
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>

Richard mentioned he used alcohol before.
I gather US rubbing alcohol is some poor quality isopropanol,
sometimes with all sorts of crap thrown in, so your theory seems
plausible. But then most laquer thinner is not exactly a single
analysis grade solvent either ;-)

A good test to see if something is "left" is to put a drop of the
thinner on a clean piece of glass or mirror. Much easier to see any
haze than on copper.

We need more info from Richard, everything else is guesswork.

ST

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Mars Bonfire <mbonfire@...> wrote:
> Checked a number of data sheets for lacquer thinner, none are or contain xylene.
>
> My experience using lacquer thinner for non PCB purposes is that it is a more aggressive, more volatile solvent than most.  As such, I could understand why it is more effective in removing organic surface contaminants from the PCB, but as far as leaving a "good" film on the board that promotes adhesion or converting the copper to something that is better sounds suspect.  My guess is that is that it is just a better solvent or what was being used before was contaminated with something that interfered with adhesion.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/12/2011 20:05, Roland Harriston wrote:
>> > Richard:
>> >
>> > I think that there might be a number of compounds that are generally
>> > called "lacquer thinner".
>>
>> Lacquer thinner is xylene.
>>
>> Leon
>> --
>> Leon Heller
>> G1HSM
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On 11/12/2011 12:37, Mars Bonfire wrote:
> Checked a number of data sheets for lacquer thinner, none are or contain
> xylene.

http://www.amazon.com/Behlen-Brushing-Laquer-Thinner-Quart/dp/B004O29S2G

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

The brand name of the lacquer thinner is sunnyside,  sold by my local Ace Hardware store.

their web page, the can looks like the one stated as general purpose.
http://www.sunnysidecorp.com/products_lacquer_thinners.html

link to the msds, the number on the can is 45716, the 16 must mean 16 oz.
http://www.sunnysidecorp.com/pdf/msds54.pdf

can says contains:
methyl alcohol
toluene
acetone
ethyl acetate
ethylene glycol
monobutyl ether
petroleum distillates

hope this helps

RD





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Addition to Mars Bonfire' comments:

There are at least three compositions that are generally called "xylene".
The molecular composition of each of the three is slightly different
and each will (perhaps) react to copper (or anything else) in different 
ways.

In addition, xylene (any composition) is really tricky stuff to have 
around the house.

M.B. is most likely correct when he states that the "lacquer thinner" 
material in question is most likely more effective in
clearing the bare copper surface of contaminants that hinder toner adhesion.

This is just my take.......those with more knowledge will probably add 
more to the discussion.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
*******************

Mars Bonfire wrote:
>  
>
> Checked a number of data sheets for lacquer thinner, none are or 
> contain xylene.
>
> My experience using lacquer thinner for non PCB purposes is that it is 
> a more aggressive, more volatile solvent than most. As such, I could 
> understand why it is more effective in removing organic surface 
> contaminants from the PCB, but as far as leaving a "good" film on the 
> board that promotes adhesion or converting the copper to something 
> that is better sounds suspect. My guess is that is that it is just a 
> better solvent or what was being used before was contaminated with 
> something that interfered with adhesion.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Richard mentioned he used alcohol before.
> I gather US rubbing alcohol is some poor quality isopropanol,
> sometimes with all sorts of crap thrown in, so your theory seems
> plausible. 

FWIW, I have a little experience with Isopropol alcohol in the US. It is readily available in Pharmacys. I work with epoxy resins occaisionally. The 70% alcohol-30% water grade is very cheap, less than a dollar a bottle. I use it for clean up. The 99% is about 4 times as much and must be ordered in. That is a day or so at WalMart. I use the 99% to thin epoxy to brush it. Methyl alcohol may be better for both purposes but I don't like the feel of it on my hands.

de W8CCW

Is it hammer finish like shown on your site or high gloss?




On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:46 AM, John <jferrell13@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Richard mentioned he used alcohol before.
> > I gather US rubbing alcohol is some poor quality isopropanol,
> > sometimes with all sorts of crap thrown in, so your theory seems
> > plausible.
>
> FWIW, I have a little experience with Isopropol alcohol in the US. It is
> readily available in Pharmacys. I work with epoxy resins occaisionally. The
> 70% alcohol-30% water grade is very cheap, less than a dollar a bottle. I
> use it for clean up. The 99% is about 4 times as much and must be ordered
> in. That is a day or so at WalMart. I use the 99% to thin epoxy to brush
> it. Methyl alcohol may be better for both purposes but I don't like the
> feel of it on my hands.
>
> de W8CCW
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry hit reply to the wrong mail in my in box, first time that's happened.



On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Pete B <pete.basel@...> wrote:

> Is it hammer finish like shown on your site or high gloss?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:46 AM, John <jferrell13@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Richard mentioned he used alcohol before.
>> > I gather US rubbing alcohol is some poor quality isopropanol,
>> > sometimes with all sorts of crap thrown in, so your theory seems
>> > plausible.
>>
>> FWIW, I have a little experience with Isopropol alcohol in the US. It is
>> readily available in Pharmacys. I work with epoxy resins occaisionally. The
>> 70% alcohol-30% water grade is very cheap, less than a dollar a bottle. I
>> use it for clean up. The 99% is about 4 times as much and must be ordered
>> in. That is a day or so at WalMart. I use the 99% to thin epoxy to brush
>> it. Methyl alcohol may be better for both purposes but I don't like the
>> feel of it on my hands.
>>
>> de W8CCW
>>
>> 
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The alcohol I use is also from my Ace Hardware store. Says it is denatured alcohol. Only ingredients listed are alcohol and less than 4% methanol.

RD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Typically, the highest purity isopropanol that can be found on store shelves in the US is 91%.  However, 99% can be special ordered in pharmacy sections. That's the best stuff I've found for cleaning boards prior to toner transfer and for removing flux after soldering.  The MSDS isn't scary, either, like it is with many solvents.  For removing toner from traces after etching, I use acetone.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> Richard mentioned he used alcohol before.
> I gather US rubbing alcohol is some poor quality isopropanol,
> sometimes with all sorts of crap thrown in, so your theory seems
> plausible. But then most laquer thinner is not exactly a single
> analysis grade solvent either ;-)

Richard,
  There are a few types of Lacquer thinner available with different
solvents in them. Which brand did you use?. I have a board coming up so
might try your method.
Thanks
Kim


On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Richard <rdheiliger@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I accidentally ran across something that appears to help toner transfer.
> Ran out of alcohol that I use to clean the board before laminating. Tried
> lacquer thinner, and got great results. I have been able to reduce my
> laminator temperature from 150 *C to 115 *C. and get perfect transfers. And
> for the first time able to do .008 width traces, without them falling off.
>
> I use a random orbital sander with 400 grit paper to polish off the
> corrosion.
> Do a first clean with alcohol, to remove the dust left from sanding.
> Then put a very liberal amount of lacquer thinner on the board, it looks
> very wet.
> Let the lacquer thinner dry, there is a haze left on the board from the
> thinner.
> Then do two passes thru my laminator at ~115 *C.
> Soak paper off, and etch. When the paper is only heated to 115 *C it soaks
> off much easier.
> The toner is a bit softer and needs a little gentler rub when cleaning the
> paper, but I can still use a plastic scrubby if I don't press too hard.
>
> Would be interested in finding out if others might get similar results,
> and if any one knows what material may be left behind after the lacquer
> thinner evaporates, it must have some kind of adhesive quality. What ever
> it is does not slow the etch time. Lacquer thinner takes the toner off the
> etched board very quickly too.
>
> RD
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

See Message #29099 on this board.

Let me know on results.

RD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Kim Vellore <kimvellore@...> wrote:

>
> Richard,
>   There are a few types of Lacquer thinner available with different
> solvents in them. Which brand did you use?. I have a board coming up so
> might try your method.
> Thanks
> Kim
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Richard <rdheiliger@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > I accidentally ran across something that appears to help toner transfer.
> > Ran out of alcohol that I use to clean the board before laminating. Tried
> > lacquer thinner, and got great results. I have been able to reduce my
> > laminator temperature from 150 *C to 115 *C. and get perfect transfers. And
> > for the first time able to do .008 width traces, without them falling off.
> >
> > I use a random orbital sander with 400 grit paper to polish off the
> > corrosion.
> > Do a first clean with alcohol, to remove the dust left from sanding.
> > Then put a very liberal amount of lacquer thinner on the board, it looks
> > very wet.
> > Let the lacquer thinner dry, there is a haze left on the board from the
> > thinner.
> > Then do two passes thru my laminator at ~115 *C.
> > Soak paper off, and etch. When the paper is only heated to 115 *C it soaks
> > off much easier.
> > The toner is a bit softer and needs a little gentler rub when cleaning the
> > paper, but I can still use a plastic scrubby if I don't press too hard.
> >
> > Would be interested in finding out if others might get similar results,
> > and if any one knows what material may be left behind after the lacquer
> > thinner evaporates, it must have some kind of adhesive quality. What ever
> > it is does not slow the etch time. Lacquer thinner takes the toner off the
> > etched board very quickly too.
> >
> > RD
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I noticed the the series of articles in the group's files section that
discussed modding a Lexmark printer to print toner on board material. 
He goes through a lot of effort to remove the fuser assembly and implies
a post print bake. 

This seems to be a lot of trouble so I'm reasonably confident there is a
good reason.  Is it that charge retention and toner adhesion are fairly
poor and if you use the printer's fuser it smears or removes the toner
rather than fusing it?

-- 
mailto:lists@...     http://www.n1oz.net       ARS: N1OZ
Rich Osman;  POB 93167; Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)

One problem is that paper is flexible and follows the curved paper 
path while the pcb is rigid. Also a thick copperclad doesn't get hot 
enough to fuse the toner in the fuser. You can run copper foil 
through and print on it and it will fuse in some printers but not all of them.

Mark

At 05:22 PM 12/15/2011, you wrote:

>I noticed the the series of articles in the group's files section that
>discussed modding a Lexmark printer to print toner on board material.
>He goes through a lot of effort to remove the fuser assembly and implies
>a post print bake.
>
>This seems to be a lot of trouble so I'm reasonably confident there is a
>good reason.  Is it that charge retention and toner adhesion are fairly
>poor and if you use the printer's fuser it smears or removes the toner
>rather than fusing it?
>
>--
>mailto:lists@...     http://www.n1oz.net       ARS: N1OZ
>Rich Osman;  POB 93167; Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Dne 16.12.2011 20:03, pi\ufffde Rich Osman:
> Thanks Mark.
>
> I hadn't thought about board thermal mass.
>
> Maybe a printer with a straight paper path and preheating boards would
> help. it would be nice to use as much of the original printer as
> possible, and the integrated fuser would seem to be a big advantage.
>
> Oz
>
Don't preheat board.
It's bad idea to have hot plate under OPC drum.

Thanks Mark.

I hadn't thought about board thermal mass. 

Maybe a printer with a straight paper path and preheating boards would
help. it would be nice to use as much of the original printer as
possible, and the integrated fuser would seem to be a big advantage. 

Oz

On 12/16/2011 8:10 AM, Mark Lerman wrote:
>  
>
>
> One problem is that paper is flexible and follows the curved paper
> path while the pcb is rigid. Also a thick copperclad doesn't get hot
> enough to fuse the toner in the fuser. You can run copper foil
> through and print on it and it will fuse in some printers but not all
> of them.
>
> Mark
>
> At 05:22 PM 12/15/2011, you wrote:
> >I noticed the the series of articles in the group's files section that
> >discussed modding a Lexmark printer to print toner on board material.
> >He goes through a lot of effort to remove the fuser assembly and implies
> >a post print bake.
> >
> >This seems to be a lot of trouble so I'm reasonably confident there is a
> >good reason. Is it that charge retention and toner adhesion are fairly
> >poor and if you use the printer's fuser it smears or removes the toner
> >rather than fusing it?
> >
> >--
> >mailto:lists@... <mailto:lists%40n1oz.net> http://www.n1oz.net
> ARS: N1OZ
> >Rich Osman; POB 93167; Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> 


-- 
mailto:lists@...     http://www.n1oz.net       ARS: N1OZ
Rich Osman;  POB 93167; Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]