Homebrew PCBs

Thanks Dave, so WinQCad is easier than Eagle, and you do not hear about
people using Protel (light) often.

There is a program for linux at pcb.sourceforge.net, and that looks
interesting, although I think there is no auto-rout.

The one drawback, appears to be having a database table of all the
components (basically millions of chips, although the packages are
relatively few), I guess people add their own specific chips without too
much difficulty, etc...

Still, I guess that Gerber files are the standard for PCB production
companies.

Whatever program I use, I will probably stay with, because, as I said, I
am only beginning and have limited CAD (circuit layout) experience.  The
coolest feature I see is the "auto-rout" where you simply place the
components and connections (I guess), and the program finds the best
routes between pins, that is awesome.

Ted


Dave Mucha wrote:

>  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Ted Huntington <thunting@u...>
> wrote:
> > I am new to making my own PCBs, is there free software that is a
> > standard (I use Linux and Windows XP)?  I have heard of Eagle and
> > Protel, I see that Gerber files appear to be the standard for PCB
> > houses.
>
>
>
> Eagle and WinQCad both offer free demo versions that allow you a
> limited package.
>
> I am using Qcad as it seems to be much easier.
>
> the demo if fully functional for a 2.3 x 2.3 board and up to 500
> pads/pins.
>
> not sure what Eagle offers as the free output version.
>
> QCad (google winqcad or qcda pcb) is not the linux Qcad.
> for $99.00 you get any size board but are still limited to 500 pins,
> then the price goes up.
>
> it's got some clunkieness, but it just seems easier than Eagle.
>
> Also the auto-rout is a great product.
>
> Dave
>
> <snip>
>

--
Ted Huntington
Programmer Analyst I
Main Library
University of California, Irvine
PO Box 19557
Irvine, CA 92623-9557
emesgs:  thunting@...
web page:  http://business.lib.uci.edu/webpages/ted.htm
8:00a-12:00p Business Office (949) 824-8926
1:00p-5:00p  Multimedia Resource Center (949) 824-1674
"Stop violence, teach science."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:24:33 -0700, Ted Huntington <thunting@...> 
wrote:

> Thanks Dave, so WinQCad is easier than Eagle, and you do not hear about
> people using Protel (light) often.
>
> There is a program for linux at pcb.sourceforge.net, and that looks
> interesting, although I think there is no auto-rout.
>
> The one drawback, appears to be having a database table of all the
> components (basically millions of chips, although the packages are
> relatively few), I guess people add their own specific chips without too
> much difficulty, etc...
>
> Still, I guess that Gerber files are the standard for PCB production
> companies.
>
> Whatever program I use, I will probably stay with, because, as I said, I
> am only beginning and have limited CAD (circuit layout) experience.  The
> coolest feature I see is the "auto-rout" where you simply place the
> components and connections (I guess), and the program finds the best
> routes between pins, that is awesome.
>
> Ted
>
>
But please, also try to route by hand..
The autorouters are nice, but all i have seen are simply stupid.

Routing is art, you can't let a computer make art.
(Or have you ever seen a computer drawing a nice picture?)

thanks
stefan

(Did you guys know that if you point a optical RPM meter towards a pc 
screen it shows
the refresh rate of the screen? (x60 of course) - i am amazed.....)

> But please, also try to route by hand..
> The autorouters are nice, but all i have seen are simply stupid.
> 
> Routing is art, you can't let a computer make art.
> (Or have you ever seen a computer drawing a nice picture?)


I never thought of it as art, but the simplicty is that an autorouter 
will take your miost sensitive input lead and twist it around your AC 
lines to get it across the board.

Once you autoroute, see what goes where and make sure you AC don't 
mix up your DC, and your pwm outputs don't cross the super sensitive 
op-amps lines.

Dave

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 03:19:01 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

>
>> But please, also try to route by hand..
>> The autorouters are nice, but all i have seen are simply stupid.
>>
>> Routing is art, you can't let a computer make art.
>> (Or have you ever seen a computer drawing a nice picture?)
>
>
> I never thought of it as art, but the simplicty is that an autorouter 
> will take your miost sensitive input lead and twist it around your AC 
> lines to get it across the board.
>
> Once you autoroute, see what goes where and make sure you AC don't mix up 
> your DC, and your pwm outputs don't cross the super sensitive op-amps 
> lines.
>
> Dave
>
>
Also most Autorouters (the ones i have seen) are not capable of exchanging 
functional equal groups of pins (imagine a 74xx logic gate with 6 equal 
parts).
they are also not capable of placing the parts in a sensible way (the 
autoplacers
i have seen were either unadjusted or simply nonsense...)

come on, Davel, have you never took a pcb, looked at either the component 
side
or the solder side and thought "wow that's beautiful"?

(or maybe looked at one and thought "that's ugly"?)

I find there is a great deal of art in pcb making.

But like with any other art there are no rules to get it perfect.
Some are making good pcbs which are simply the smallest possible.
Some arrange the components nicely, makes the routing a bit more 
complicated
but a pcb where the resistors are not aligned simply looks not so good (for 
me).
If you look at the solder side in my opinion a good pcb is one with each 
track
going the best possibleway, as straight as possible, and properly aligned 
with the other tracks. (On timing sensitive Boards meander are an exclusion 
to "shortest path)


I don't like art very much, i spend no time looking at pictures or 
listening
to music, this simply doesn't interest me... but there is a difference
between a pcb which was made in a hurry with autorouter and a pcb which was 
make
by a skillful person investing some time.

I think it is more art than some things todays "artists" make...
but that's only the opinion of someone who doesn't know much about art..

Hope you can see the art in some of the next pcbs you get hold of.

regards
stefan

Is that artistic or simply an obsessive compulsive disorder? :D

I'll take shortest path with the least number of vias over "neat 
looking" every time. Lining up resistors and such, while admittedly 
pretty, generally causes PCBs to be larger and more difficult 
(expensive) to produce. If you're having the 4 layer boards made by 
a PCB house anyway, its not a big deal. If you're making double 
sided boards at home, its a HUGE deal. Adding 30 vias just to get 
all the resistors lined up adds a lot of labour.

Of course, once I get this cnc pcb drill made, it'll be a lot less 
of a labour problem ;)

Next thing is noise standards. Longer traces means more radiated and 
picked up noise from the environment. Metalic or treated enclosures 
can mitigate this a lot but it adds expense.

So, pretty when you can do it without too much added work, 
straightforward when pretty costs too much.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Also most Autorouters (the ones i have seen) are not capable of 
exchanging 
> functional equal groups of pins (imagine a 74xx logic gate with 6 
equal 
> parts).
> they are also not capable of placing the parts in a sensible way 
(the 
> autoplacers
> i have seen were either unadjusted or simply nonsense...)
> 
> come on, Davel, have you never took a pcb, looked at either the 
component 
> side
> or the solder side and thought "wow that's beautiful"?
> 
> (or maybe looked at one and thought "that's ugly"?)
> 
> I find there is a great deal of art in pcb making.
> 
> But like with any other art there are no rules to get it perfect.
> Some are making good pcbs which are simply the smallest possible.
> Some arrange the components nicely, makes the routing a bit more 
> complicated
> but a pcb where the resistors are not aligned simply looks not so 
good (for 
> me).
> If you look at the solder side in my opinion a good pcb is one 
with each 
> track
> going the best possibleway, as straight as possible, and properly 
aligned 
> with the other tracks. (On timing sensitive Boards meander are an 
exclusion 
> to "shortest path)
> 
> 
> I don't like art very much, i spend no time looking at pictures or 
> listening
> to music, this simply doesn't interest me... but there is a 
difference
> between a pcb which was made in a hurry with autorouter and a pcb 
which was 
> make
> by a skillful person investing some time.
> 
> I think it is more art than some things todays "artists" make...
> but that's only the opinion of someone who doesn't know much about 
art..

> 
> Hope you can see the art in some of the next pcbs you get hold of.
> 
> regards
> stefan

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:33:29 -0000, ghidera2000 <ghidera2000@...> 
wrote:

> Is that artistic or simply an obsessive compulsive disorder? :D
>
> I'll take shortest path with the least number of vias over "neat looking" 
> every time. Lining up resistors and such, while admittedly pretty, 
> generally causes PCBs to be larger and more difficult (expensive) to 
> produce. If you're having the 4 layer boards made by a PCB house anyway, 
> its not a big deal. If you're making double sided boards at home, its a 
> HUGE deal. Adding 30 vias just to get all the resistors lined up adds a 
> lot of labour.
>
> Of course, once I get this cnc pcb drill made, it'll be a lot less of a 
> labour problem ;)
>
> Next thing is noise standards. Longer traces means more radiated and 
> picked up noise from the environment. Metalic or treated enclosures can 
> mitigate this a lot but it adds expense.
>
> So, pretty when you can do it without too much added work, 
> straightforward when pretty costs too much.
>
>

no,

I may have described it wrong.
This is not at all what i wanted to say.
I'm not for aligning ALL resistors, this is useless.

But i am very for aligning the parts where it doesn't make any change in 
trace length.
Often the traces get much shorter by proper alignment.

I don't place the parts like i want them to be arranged and after that make 
the routing.
I place the parts so that routing is easiest and simple and that the pcb is 
as small as possible.

(by alingning the parts a bit the pcb actually gets smaller).

Hope that makes more clear what i wanted to say.

st

>From: Ted Huntington <thunting@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] free standard PCB software
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:24:33 -0700
>
>Thanks Dave, so WinQCad is easier than Eagle, and you do not hear about
>people using Protel (light) often.
>
>There is a program for linux at pcb.sourceforge.net, and that looks
>interesting, although I think there is no auto-rout.
>
>The one drawback, appears to be having a database table of all the
>components (basically millions of chips, although the packages are
>relatively few), I guess people add their own specific chips without too
>much difficulty, etc...
>
>Still, I guess that Gerber files are the standard for PCB production
>companies.
>
>Whatever program I use, I will probably stay with, because, as I said, I
>am only beginning and have limited CAD (circuit layout) experience.  The
>coolest feature I see is the "auto-rout" where you simply place the
>components and connections (I guess), and the program finds the best
>routes between pins, that is awesome.
>

It's a good idea to check any parts from provided libraries very thoroughly 
before using them, they occasionally have errors. Most people define their 
own, anyway, for things like MCUs.

Experienced PCB designers very rarely use autorouters; even the expensive 
ones don't do a very good job in many cases. The cheap ones are rubbish.

I use Pulsonix: http://www.pulsonix.com. IMHO it's about the best of the 
mid-range packages, competing with Protel, Cadstar and Orcad. It comes with 
the Bartels router, which isn't bad, but I don't use it much.


Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email:leon_heller@...
My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

_________________________________________________________________
It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! 
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

most Autorouters (the ones i have seen) are not capable of exchanging 
> functional equal groups of pins (imagine a 74xx logic gate with 6 
equal 
> parts).
> they are also not capable of placing the parts in a sensible way 
(the 
> autoplacers
> i have seen were either unadjusted or simply nonsense...)
> 
> come on, Davel, have you never took a pcb, looked at either the 
component 
> side
> or the solder side and thought "wow that's beautiful"?
> 
> (or maybe looked at one and thought "that's ugly"?)
> 
> I find there is a great deal of art in pcb making.
> 
> But like with any other art there are no rules to get it perfect.
> Some are making good pcbs which are simply the smallest possible.
> Some arrange the components nicely, makes the routing a bit more 
> complicated
> but a pcb where the resistors are not aligned simply looks not so 
good (for 
> me).
> If you look at the solder side in my opinion a good pcb is one with 
each 
> track
> going the best possibleway, as straight as possible, and properly 
aligned 
> with the other tracks. (On timing sensitive Boards meander are an 
exclusion 
> to "shortest path)
> 
> 
> I don't like art very much, i spend no time looking at pictures or 
> listening
> to music, this simply doesn't interest me... but there is a 
difference
> between a pcb which was made in a hurry with autorouter and a pcb 
which was 
> make
> by a skillful person investing some time.
> 
> I think it is more art than some things todays "artists" make...
> but that's only the opinion of someone who doesn't know much about 
art..
> 
> Hope you can see the art in some of the next pcbs you get hold of.
> 
> regards
> stefan

I know what you mean.

I have been practicing with QCad for a few weeks now and have come to 
the conclusiton that I just input all the components, spread them out 
a lot, then autoroute.  I get a MESS !

Then I LOOK at the components and the board and figure out where I 
want the connections and some of the major components.  move them 
around then autoroute again.

then I go back and move all the related parts like caps and resistors 
so they line up better.  

I do find that you can place an LED in one of 4 directions, 3 of 
which will cause traces to go off into odd directions and not 'flow'  
ditto for resisrs and caps.

I move those type around until the traces are shorter and the lines 
more straight.

When it is done, I have forced the autoroute to put traces where I 
want them to a large degree and the board looks better.

I have a board that looks like heck as all of one side of the PIC 
pins were connected to things on the opposite side of the board and 
all the pins on the other side had to weave themselves around.  very 
cluttered.

Dave

> I know what you mean.
> 
> I have been practicing with QCad for a few weeks now and have come 
to 
> the conclusiton that I just input all the components, spread them 
out 
> a lot, then autoroute.  I get a MESS !
> 
> Then I LOOK at the components and the board and figure out where I 
> want the connections and some of the major components.  move them 
> around then autoroute again.
> 
> then I go back and move all the related parts like caps and 
resistors 
> so they line up better.  
> 
> I do find that you can place an LED in one of 4 directions, 3 of 
> which will cause traces to go off into odd directions and 
not 'flow'  
> ditto for resisrs and caps.
> 
> I move those type around until the traces are shorter and the 
lines 
> more straight.
> 
> When it is done, I have forced the autoroute to put traces where I 
> want them to a large degree and the board looks better.
> 
> I have a board that looks like heck as all of one side of the PIC 
> pins were connected to things on the opposite side of the board 
and 
> all the pins on the other side had to weave themselves around.  
very 
> cluttered.
> 
> Dave

Yep, I no longer use the "representative" schematic parts. I make 
all my schematic parts identical to the chips themselves just so I 
don't end up with what you describe. The entire time I'm doing the 
schematic I'm also working out PCB placement. If I have to use lots 
on 90 degree corners in the schematic I know its time to rethink 
what I'm doing. Makes it a lot easier to decide which pins to use on 
MCUs and the like as well. 

For instance, I was using the default '4050 schematic part and 
didn't realize just what a mess the '4050 makes on a PCB. Once I saw 
this, I dumped the '4050 and went with a '245. Extra pins, but its 
very tidy - all inputs on one side and outputs on the other.

thanks Leon, very interesting to read.  Pulsonix does not offer a free
<300 pin version, Cadstar looks like a good possibility with a free 300
pin version.  That is interesting that Orcad uses a Digikey Access
(.mdb) database of 66,826 parts.  There looks to be an Orcad demo, but I
am not sure what the specs are.

So what software do the rest of you all use?  I think the best idea for
me, is to try the free and demo software until I know how to draw
schematics, layout pcbs, make and view gerber files...etc.

Ted



> It's a good idea to check any parts from provided libraries very
> thoroughly
> before using them, they occasionally have errors. Most people define
> their
> own, anyway, for things like MCUs.
>
> Experienced PCB designers very rarely use autorouters; even the
> expensive
> ones don't do a very good job in many cases. The cheap ones are
> rubbish.
>
> I use Pulsonix: http://www.pulsonix.com. IMHO it's about the best of
> the
> mid-range packages, competing with Protel, Cadstar and Orcad. It comes
> with
> the Bartels router, which isn't bad, but I don't use it much.
>
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
> Email:leon_heller@...
> My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                         [Click Here!]

>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Ted Huntington
Programmer Analyst I
Main Library
University of California, Irvine
PO Box 19557
Irvine, CA 92623-9557
emesgs:  thunting@...
web page:  http://business.lib.uci.edu/webpages/ted.htm
8:00a-12:00p Business Office (949) 824-8926
1:00p-5:00p  Multimedia Resource Center (949) 824-1674
"Stop violence, teach science."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>From: Ted Huntington <thunting@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] free standard PCB software
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:57:03 -0700
>
>thanks Leon, very interesting to read.  Pulsonix does not offer a free
><300 pin version, Cadstar looks like a good possibility with a free 300
>pin version.  That is interesting that Orcad uses a Digikey Access
>(.mdb) database of 66,826 parts.  There looks to be an Orcad demo, but I
>am not sure what the specs are.

The Pulsonix demo is good for < 100 piins. EasyPC (same co. as Pulsonix) is 
worth looking at, also:

http://www.numberone.com/

It's intended more for the educational and hobbyist market.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email: aqzf13 at dsl dot pipex dot com
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! 
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Thanks, I thought that the Pulsonix was 30-day only.  But perhaps, then
the 100 pin limit is in effect.

Ted


Leon Heller wrote:

>
>
>
> >From: Ted Huntington <thunting@...>
> >Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] free standard PCB software
> >Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:57:03 -0700
> >
> >thanks Leon, very interesting to read.  Pulsonix does not offer a
> free
> ><300 pin version, Cadstar looks like a good possibility with a free
> 300
> >pin version.  That is interesting that Orcad uses a Digikey Access
> >(.mdb) database of 66,826 parts.  There looks to be an Orcad demo,
> but I
> >am not sure what the specs are.
>
> The Pulsonix demo is good for < 100 piins. EasyPC (same co. as
> Pulsonix) is
> worth looking at, also:
>
> http://www.numberone.com/
>
> It's intended more for the educational and hobbyist market.
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
> Email: aqzf13 at dsl dot pipex dot com
> WWW: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                         [Click Here!]

>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Ted Huntington
Programmer Analyst I
Main Library
University of California, Irvine
PO Box 19557
Irvine, CA 92623-9557

Phone Bus Off 949 824 8926
Phone MRC     949 824 1674
emesg: thunting@...
webpage:  http://business.lib.uci.edu/webpages/ted.htm
"Stop violence, teach science."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:57:03 -0700
Ted Huntington <thunting@...> wrote:

> thanks Leon, very interesting to read.  Pulsonix does not offer a free
> <300 pin version, Cadstar looks like a good possibility with a free 300
> pin version.  That is interesting that Orcad uses a Digikey Access
> (.mdb) database of 66,826 parts.  There looks to be an Orcad demo, but I
> am not sure what the specs are.
> 
> So what software do the rest of you all use?  I think the best idea for
> me, is to try the free and demo software until I know how to draw
> schematics, layout pcbs, make and view gerber files...etc.
> 
> Ted

I am using gEDA and PCB under Linux, with very good results. I have some pictures
of boards I made (scanned images) at
http://gpiclib.sf.net/board1.jpg
http://gpiclib.sf.net/board2.jpg
http://gpiclib.sf.net/board3.jpg
http://gpiclib.sf.net/board4.jpg

Nice looking boards!  Those look like a professional house did them, and
that they are all 2 layer (plus the silk screen).  PCB is the program I
want to try using, because I use Linux for my robot.  I had never heard
of gEDA but that looks useful too, plus they have a Cypress USB chip as
the example, a similar project to one I am doing for high speed USB 2.0.

Ted


Xtian Xultz wrote:

>  On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:57:03 -0700
> Ted Huntington <thunting@...> wrote:
>
> > thanks Leon, very interesting to read.  Pulsonix does not offer a
> free
> > <300 pin version, Cadstar looks like a good possibility with a free
> 300
> > pin version.  That is interesting that Orcad uses a Digikey Access
> > (.mdb) database of 66,826 parts.  There looks to be an Orcad demo,
> but I
> > am not sure what the specs are.
> >
> > So what software do the rest of you all use?  I think the best idea
> for
> > me, is to try the free and demo software until I know how to draw
> > schematics, layout pcbs, make and view gerber files...etc.
> >
> > Ted
>
> I am using gEDA and PCB under Linux, with very good results. I have
> some pictures
> of boards I made (scanned images) at
> http://gpiclib.sf.net/board1.jpg
> http://gpiclib.sf.net/board2.jpg
> http://gpiclib.sf.net/board3.jpg
> http://gpiclib.sf.net/board4.jpg
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                         [Click Here!]

>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
Ted Huntington
Programmer Analyst I
Main Library
University of California, Irvine
PO Box 19557
Irvine, CA 92623-9557
emesgs:  thunting@...
web page:  http://business.lib.uci.edu/webpages/ted.htm
8:00a-12:00p Business Office (949) 824-8926
1:00p-5:00p  Multimedia Resource Center (949) 824-1674
"Stop violence, teach science."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:30:58 -0700
Ted Huntington <thunting@...> wrote:

> Nice looking boards!  Those look like a professional house did them, and
> that they are all 2 layer (plus the silk screen).  PCB is the program I
> want to try using, because I use Linux for my robot.  I had never heard
> of gEDA but that looks useful too, plus they have a Cypress USB chip as
> the example, a similar project to one I am doing for high speed USB 2.0.
> 
gEDA IMHO is the best free and open source program for schematic capture.
These board was made in a professional house, and to design them I used
Linux and only free softwares.