Homebrew PCBs

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 6:28 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!

 

  


Last February I suspended my dlp (direct laser printing) experiments 
to try to get a modified Epson inkjet to reliably print resist 
directly on pcbs. After 6 very frustrating months I decided that I 
cannot make it work in any simple reliable manner, though several 
people on the inkjet list do seem to be successfully making it work. 
For me, the constant effort keep the nozzles clear coupled with the 
printer's firmware that required a lot of wasted time and ink and 
numerous software issues involving the print drivers made it just too 
much "work" for my "one board every so often" needs.

So I've gone back to my attempt to use a laser printer to print toner 
directly on pcbs. Here is a link to my latest test board. All the 
traces you see ate 10 mil, except for the small group on the right, 
which are 5 mil. The scan is not very good, but all of the traces are 
intact and full width, except for one small break in one of the 5 mil 
traces. <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/image/137444500>

This board was done with a modified Lexmark E260, but it is NOT 
modified as per my earlier documentation. I have incorporated many of 
the suggestions made by Jim <jhutch17@...
<mailto:jhutch17%40adelphia.net> > in both this list 
and via private communication, and I think his method is much simpler 
and easier to implement than mine. More details to follow.

Mark





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Mark,
>
>
>
>Excellent that you were able to achieve 5 mil!  Can you describe in the
>details to follow what you did to modify the E260.  I know one advantage the
>E260 already has over other laser printers is the 1200 dpi resolution.
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 6:28 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Last February I suspended my dlp (direct laser printing) experiments
>to try to get a modified Epson inkjet to reliably print resist
>directly on pcbs. After 6 very frustrating months I decided that I
>cannot make it work in any simple reliable manner, though several
>people on the inkjet list do seem to be successfully making it work.
>For me, the constant effort keep the nozzles clear coupled with the
>printer's firmware that required a lot of wasted time and ink and
>numerous software issues involving the print drivers made it just too
>much "work" for my "one board every so often" needs.
>
>So I've gone back to my attempt to use a laser printer to print toner
>directly on pcbs. Here is a link to my latest test board. All the
>traces you see ate 10 mil, except for the small group on the right,
>which are 5 mil. The scan is not very good, but all of the traces are
>intact and full width, except for one small break in one of the 5 mil
>traces. <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/image/137444500>
>
>This board was done with a modified Lexmark E260, but it is NOT
>modified as per my earlier documentation. I have incorporated many of
>the suggestions made by Jim <jhutch17@...
><mailto:jhutch17%40adelphia.net> > in both this list
>and via private communication, and I think his method is much simpler
>and easier to implement than mine. More details to follow.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> 
> I't been a while since I modified this machine, but I think the only 
> real mods were removing the fuser and putting in a new steel roller 
> (same as my original mod). The exit sensor also.has to be relocated 
> (or a microprocessor added to simulate it). This mod was described to 
> me by Jim. Using a 10 mil carrier - I use a piece of 10 mil fr4 from 
> McMaster-Carr - I can pass .032 pcb through. To use .064 pcb, Jim 
> used a wood chisel to cut off the "ribs" on the paper platform. I 
> haven't done this because I usually use .032 board. I'll look the 
> machine over tomorrow when I have more time.
> 
> If you look through the archives of this group you will see various 
> posts by Jim that describe his mod in some detail, including either 
> grounding the pcb as it goes through the printer or putting a 
> positive voltage on it. I just modified the flash circuit of a 
> disposable camera to make a variable supply (85-450 vdc) for this 
> purpose. I also used his "acetone fix" technique on the pcb shown - no oven!
> 
> I hope to drag out my HP 2200 and see if I can get it to work. It is 
> easier to feed the pcb's and considerably less expensive in the used 
> (ebay) market.
> 
> DLP has a lot of advantages:
> 
> 1 - A "run" just takes a few seconds to do. Put the pcb on a carrier 
> into the printer and press "print". No transfer necessary!
> 2 - If the "run" doesn't give an acceptable print, it takes just 
> seconds to clean the pcb and try again.
> 3 - No laminator necessary.
> 4 - No heat necessary if you use acetone fixing.
> 
> It's disadvantages:
> 1 - Harder to do double sided boards. It is probably possible to 
> register the sides, but is easier to make two separate sides and glue 
> them together.
> 
> 
> At 06:35 PM 8/22/2011, you wrote:
> >Mark,
> >
> >
> >
> >Excellent that you were able to achieve 5 mil!  Can you describe in the
> >details to follow what you did to modify the E260.  I know one advantage the
> >E260 already has over other laser printers is the 1200 dpi resolution.
> >
> >
> >
> >Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
> >Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 6:28 PM
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Last February I suspended my dlp (direct laser printing) experiments
> >to try to get a modified Epson inkjet to reliably print resist
> >directly on pcbs. After 6 very frustrating months I decided that I
> >cannot make it work in any simple reliable manner, though several
> >people on the inkjet list do seem to be successfully making it work.
> >For me, the constant effort keep the nozzles clear coupled with the
> >printer's firmware that required a lot of wasted time and ink and
> >numerous software issues involving the print drivers made it just too
> >much "work" for my "one board every so often" needs.
> >
> >So I've gone back to my attempt to use a laser printer to print toner
> >directly on pcbs. Here is a link to my latest test board. All the
> >traces you see ate 10 mil, except for the small group on the right,
> >which are 5 mil. The scan is not very good, but all of the traces are
> >intact and full width, except for one small break in one of the 5 mil
> >traces. <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/image/137444500>
> >
> >This board was done with a modified Lexmark E260, but it is NOT
> >modified as per my earlier documentation. I have incorporated many of
> >the suggestions made by Jim <jhutch17@...
> ><mailto:jhutch17%40adelphia.net> > in both this list
> >and via private communication, and I think his method is much simpler
> >and easier to implement than mine. More details to follow.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

>From: "sdlgj;slk ;slgksl;gs;fdq1" <crazycasta@...>
>Sent: Aug 25, 2011 6:56 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DLP - getting better!
>
>Could you just reuse the fuser to harden the toner, or is there something I'm missing (smudging, not hot enough, etc.). Ofc it would require some means of mechanical rebuild, so I'm not suggesting it would be easy, but would it work?
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I't been a while since I modified this machine, but I think the only 
>> real mods were removing the fuser and putting in a new steel roller 
>> (same as my original mod). The exit sensor also.has to be relocated 
>> (or a microprocessor added to simulate it). This mod was described to 
>> me by Jim. Using a 10 mil carrier - I use a piece of 10 mil fr4 from 
>> McMaster-Carr - I can pass .032 pcb through. To use .064 pcb, Jim 
>> used a wood chisel to cut off the "ribs" on the paper platform. I 
>> haven't done this because I usually use .032 board. I'll look the 
>> machine over tomorrow when I have more time.
>> 
>> If you look through the archives of this group you will see various 
>> posts by Jim that describe his mod in some detail, including either 
>> grounding the pcb as it goes through the printer or putting a 
>> positive voltage on it. I just modified the flash circuit of a 
>> disposable camera to make a variable supply (85-450 vdc) for this 
>> purpose. I also used his "acetone fix" technique on the pcb shown - no oven!
>> 
>> I hope to drag out my HP 2200 and see if I can get it to work. It is 
>> easier to feed the pcb's and considerably less expensive in the used 
>> (ebay) market.
>> 
>> DLP has a lot of advantages:
>> 
>> 1 - A "run" just takes a few seconds to do. Put the pcb on a carrier 
>> into the printer and press "print". No transfer necessary!
>> 2 - If the "run" doesn't give an acceptable print, it takes just 
>> seconds to clean the pcb and try again.
>> 3 - No laminator necessary.
>> 4 - No heat necessary if you use acetone fixing.
>> 
>> It's disadvantages:
>> 1 - Harder to do double sided boards. It is probably possible to 
>> register the sides, but is easier to make two separate sides and glue 
>> them together.
>> 
>> 
>> At 06:35 PM 8/22/2011, you wrote:
>> >Mark,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Excellent that you were able to achieve 5 mil!  Can you describe in the
>> >details to follow what you did to modify the E260.  I know one advantage the
>> >E260 already has over other laser printers is the 1200 dpi resolution.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >   _____
>> >
>> >From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
>> >Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 6:28 PM
>> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Last February I suspended my dlp (direct laser printing) experiments
>> >to try to get a modified Epson inkjet to reliably print resist
>> >directly on pcbs. After 6 very frustrating months I decided that I
>> >cannot make it work in any simple reliable manner, though several
>> >people on the inkjet list do seem to be successfully making it work.
>> >For me, the constant effort keep the nozzles clear coupled with the
>> >printer's firmware that required a lot of wasted time and ink and
>> >numerous software issues involving the print drivers made it just too
>> >much "work" for my "one board every so often" needs.
>> >
>> >So I've gone back to my attempt to use a laser printer to print toner
>> >directly on pcbs. Here is a link to my latest test board. All the
>> >traces you see ate 10 mil, except for the small group on the right,
>> >which are 5 mil. The scan is not very good, but all of the traces are
>> >intact and full width, except for one small break in one of the 5 mil
>> >traces. <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/image/137444500>
>> >
>> >This board was done with a modified Lexmark E260, but it is NOT
>> >modified as per my earlier documentation. I have incorporated many of
>> >the suggestions made by Jim <jhutch17@...
>> ><mailto:jhutch17%40adelphia.net> > in both this list
>> >and via private communication, and I think his method is much simpler
>> >and easier to implement than mine. More details to follow.
>> >
>> >Mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> Well, Mark, glad to hear that.
> 
> I've joined to this group mainly after reading your article about modifying E260. Frankly I had bad experiences with inkjet printers for regular (prepress) printouts (ink getting dry fast, nozzles clogging uneven ink quality in printouts, irregularity in ink depositing, sensitivity to liquid drops, etc so we used it only for correctional/draft copies never for prepress) that I didn't even consider modifications for PDB printing.
> 
> I'm developing my boards the "traditional" photo-litography way. Photo coating of regular boards and drying them in oven to become UV sensitive. I'm using PCB masks from imagesetter (I prepare them in DXP, then print them to PDF and email them to desing studio for printout on imagesettet, part that I'm trying to substitute here). Blacks there are real "thick" light unpassable black and resolution is excellent (at lest for my purposes, but... It requires time, waiting, going back and forth to get films... and it is reason I want to make complete circle at home). After UV exposure I use NaOH for developer (obtained from deluted bathroom sanitizer) and FeCl3 for etching.
> 
> Gives great results, but... Not fast and I'm dependant on external service for imagesetter part..
> 
> I'm still reading about the mods to get beter picture of work and costs involved, since your article on DLP caught my attention. So I'm looking forward to hearing news on your DLPexperience. Thumbs up :)
> 
> Best luck,
> C.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

-----Original Message-----

From: Cristian
Sent: 2 Apr 2012 14:58:50 GMT
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!

Visit, please, www.bungard.de where you can find the Bungard  Laser Direct:


'Bungard Laser Direct, UV laser direct imaging system for common photoresists.
We already presented and operated a prototype during Productronica
fair 2011 in Munich. In this demonstration we exposed a Euro card
with positive resist, ALUCOREX as well as negative resist within 3 minutes.

Target Customers are electronic developers with frequent layout
changes, who want to process their PCB prototypes (e.g. antenna
structures), in wet processing technology according to industrial standards.

The laser head has a resolution better than 50 microns and will be
available either as an add on item for existing CCD machines as well
as a complete CNC system that can not only expose but also drill and route.
The Bungard Laser Direct will be able to expose a Eurocard pcb in
about 15 minutes, depending on the interconnect density and aspect
ratio. To control the laser unit the software LaserPro is required.
In LaserPro travel speed, travel height, light energy and start delay
(Prelight) can be set for currently 1 - 15 tools.
LaserPro processes HPGL data (HPGL 7475A) in the same manner as the
other operating software for the Bungard CCD RoutePro and DispPro. If
necessary, the CAD-CAM software ISOCAM is required to convert Gerber
Data into HPGL travel paths.

After exposure, the boards can be developed and etched like our
normal presensitized base material. The Bungard Laser Direct does not
remove copper from the substrate. When lasering copper highly toxic
gases are produced, that need special collecting neutralizing and
disposal measures. In our opinion, etching is the far more
environmentally friendly option.

With the Bungard Laser Direct prototypes can be realized more quickly
and accurately than with previous technology. For small series
production, we still recommend to make a layout film with the Bungard
Filmstar and expose with the Hellas or - for finer resolution - with
the EXP 8000

The Bungard Laser Direct and the software LaserPro are offered at an
unbeatable price. They can be retrofitted to all Bungard CCD machines
younger than in 2006. Ask us for a quote!'

Cristian, a Bungard's client in Romania  from 2000.
I'll buy one if it is not a fortune.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----

From: Cristian
Sent: 2 Apr 2012 18:45:30 GMT
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!

At 07:09 PM 02-04-12, you wrote:
>
>
>That's what im wondering-- how much?

The laser head is 1000E plus VAT
The software has the same price.

>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: Cristian
>Sent: 2 Apr 2012 14:58:50 GMT
>To: <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] DLP - getting better!
>
>Visit, please, www.bungard.de where you can find the Bungard Laser Direct:
>
>'Bungard Laser Direct, UV laser direct imaging system for common photoresists.
>We already presented and operated a prototype during Productronica
>fair 2011 in Munich. In this demonstration we exposed a Euro card
>with positive resist, ALUCOREX as well as negative resist within 3 minutes.
>
>Target Customers are electronic developers with frequent layout
>changes, who want to process their PCB prototypes (e.g. antenna
>structures), in wet processing technology according to industrial standards.
>
>The laser head has a resolution better than 50 microns and will be
>available either as an add on item for existing CCD machines as well
>as a complete CNC system that can not only expose but also drill and route.
>The Bungard Laser Direct will be able to expose a Eurocard pcb in
>about 15 minutes, depending on the interconnect density and aspect
>ratio. To control the laser unit the software LaserPro is required.
>In LaserPro travel speed, travel height, light energy and start delay
>(Prelight) can be set for currently 1 - 15 tools.
>LaserPro processes HPGL data (HPGL 7475A) in the same manner as the
>other operating software for the Bungard CCD RoutePro and DispPro. If
>necessary, the CAD-CAM software ISOCAM is required to convert Gerber
>Data into HPGL travel paths.
>
>After exposure, the boards can be developed and etched like our
>normal presensitized base material. The Bungard Laser Direct does not
>remove copper from the substrate. When lasering copper highly toxic
>gases are produced, that need special collecting neutralizing and
>disposal measures. In our opinion, etching is the far more
>environmentally friendly option.
>
>With the Bungard Laser Direct prototypes can be realized more quickly
>and accurately than with previous technology. For small series
>production, we still recommend to make a layout film with the Bungard
>Filmstar and expose with the Hellas or - for finer resolution - with
>the EXP 8000
>
>The Bungard Laser Direct and the software LaserPro are offered at an
>unbeatable price. They can be retrofitted to all Bungard CCD machines
>younger than in 2006. Ask us for a quote!'
>
>Cristian, a Bungard's client in Romania from 2000.
>I'll buy one if it is not a fortune.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]