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2011-05-14 by Ingo
Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet.
2011-05-14 by Leon Heller
On 14/05/2011 12:42, Ingo wrote: > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. It looks pretty good. What sort of track width and spacing are you getting, that is reliable? Leon -- Leon Heller G1HSM
2011-05-14 by Ingo
if you look at the other photos, you see microscopic pictures with measured (!) traces down to 3 mil; the smallest one I ve ever done is a little smaller than 2mil. But these are hard to get. I would say that 5mil/5mil is already quite reliable at the moment. Sorry, I am in hurry and cannot give to many input at the moment... Ingo --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote:
> > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. >
2011-05-14 by Stefan Trethan
Now that's quite impressive. I wonder how long it will be until the pro shops use inkjet printing. ST
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Ingo <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote: > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. > > >
2011-05-14 by Ingo
That already happens in very large industrial processes. Inkjet already plays an important role as well as in pcb- as in solar cell manufacturing. There is much much more ongoing as most people think... Chances are very high, that inkjet will be the most important production process in those fields in future. Ingo --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> > Now that's quite impressive. > > I wonder how long it will be until the pro shops use inkjet printing. > > ST > > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Ingo <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote: > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. > > > > > > >
2011-05-14 by Mark Lerman
The Holy Grail would be to print a conducting material directly on a substrate. Instant pcb. I know there have been some moderately successful attempts, but nothing practical so far (???) Mark At 09:45 AM 5/14/2011, you wrote:
>That already happens in very large industrial processes. > >Inkjet already plays an important role as well as in pcb- as in >solar cell manufacturing. There is much much more ongoing as most >people think... >Chances are very high, that inkjet will be the most important >production process in those fields in future. > > >Ingo > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan ><stefan_trethan@...> wrote: > > > > Now that's quite impressive. > > > > I wonder how long it will be until the pro shops use inkjet printing. > > > > ST > > > > > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Ingo <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote: > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine > and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in > the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done > via inkjet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
2011-05-14 by Ingo
Its so practical that thats the reason why I am so busy at the moment. The topic is direct inkjet printing of multiplayer (meaning printing even the several layers itself)pcbs onto different materials, including foils etc. But nobody should think of this as an easy or cheap method at the moment. Ingo --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > > The Holy Grail would be to print a conducting material directly on a > substrate. Instant pcb. I know there have been some moderately > successful attempts, but nothing practical so far (???) > > Mark > > At 09:45 AM 5/14/2011, you wrote: > >That already happens in very large industrial processes. > > > >Inkjet already plays an important role as well as in pcb- as in > >solar cell manufacturing. There is much much more ongoing as most > >people think... > >Chances are very high, that inkjet will be the most important > >production process in those fields in future. > > > > > >Ingo > > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan > ><stefan_trethan@> wrote: > > > > > > Now that's quite impressive. > > > > > > I wonder how long it will be until the pro shops use inkjet printing. > > > > > > ST > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Ingo <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine > > and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in > > the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done > > via inkjet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
2011-05-14 by AlienRelics
Nice work! That is impressive. Meanwhile, there is a lot of negative talk going on over in the inkjet PCB list, as if no one has ever gotten this to work. Go figure. Steve Greenfield AE7HD --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote:
> > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. >
2011-05-14 by Terry
I don't think it is so much negative talk as it is disappointment that the process is not so easy as those of you who have had such stunning success make it seem. It is not that I don't believe it can be done, but it is definitely NOT a cookbook process and requires much fine tuning and tweaking...at least that is what I have found. I still hold great hope for this process. Ingo's pictures look practically as good a professional boards and that is what I am pursuing. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> > Nice work! That is impressive. > > Meanwhile, there is a lot of negative talk going on over in the inkjet PCB list, as if no one has ever gotten this to work. Go figure. > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. > > >
2011-05-14 by Terry
I assume that this board was done with N-Gen ink! Using MisPro I haven't been able to get legends to print acceptably at all. The light colors just don't seem to be opaque enough. Are the lighter colors of N-Gen more opaque? --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote:
> > > Its so practical that thats the reason why I am so busy at the moment. > The topic is direct inkjet printing of multiplayer (meaning printing even the several layers itself)pcbs onto different materials, including foils etc. > > But nobody should think of this as an easy or cheap method at the moment. > > > Ingo > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@> wrote: > > > > > > The Holy Grail would be to print a conducting material directly on a > > substrate. Instant pcb. I know there have been some moderately > > successful attempts, but nothing practical so far (???) > > > > Mark > > > > At 09:45 AM 5/14/2011, you wrote: > > >That already happens in very large industrial processes. > > > > > >Inkjet already plays an important role as well as in pcb- as in > > >solar cell manufacturing. There is much much more ongoing as most > > >people think... > > >Chances are very high, that inkjet will be the most important > > >production process in those fields in future. > > > > > > > > >Ingo > > > > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan > > ><stefan_trethan@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Now that's quite impressive. > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it will be until the pro shops use inkjet printing. > > > > > > > > ST > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Ingo <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine > > > and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in > > > the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done > > > via inkjet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > >
2011-05-14 by Ingo
Yes it was a NGen based inkset. In general, even highly pigmented inkjet inks are always quite transparent (exept black and white). I didn`t print the yelleow lgend over the darker area, but printed it all toghether in a single step - the printfile of the soldermask included the legends. The different shades within the legends are because of the different colors of the material below - copper and the FR2 base material. For a better readability, I`ll do some boards with yellow soldermasks including black legends. I `d say its a benefit of this inkjet-process that soldermask and legend printing can be done as a one-step process. Ingo --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <twgray2007@...> wrote:
> > I assume that this board was done with N-Gen ink! Using MisPro I haven't been able to get legends to print acceptably at all. The light colors just don't seem to be opaque enough. Are the lighter colors of N-Gen more opaque? > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > > > Its so practical that thats the reason why I am so busy at the moment. > > The topic is direct inkjet printing of multiplayer (meaning printing even the several layers itself)pcbs onto different materials, including foils etc. > > > > But nobody should think of this as an easy or cheap method at the moment. > > > > > > Ingo > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Holy Grail would be to print a conducting material directly on a > > > substrate. Instant pcb. I know there have been some moderately > > > successful attempts, but nothing practical so far (???) > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 09:45 AM 5/14/2011, you wrote: > > > >That already happens in very large industrial processes. > > > > > > > >Inkjet already plays an important role as well as in pcb- as in > > > >solar cell manufacturing. There is much much more ongoing as most > > > >people think... > > > >Chances are very high, that inkjet will be the most important > > > >production process in those fields in future. > > > > > > > > > > > >Ingo > > > > > > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan > > > ><stefan_trethan@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Now that's quite impressive. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it will be until the pro shops use inkjet printing. > > > > > > > > > > ST > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Ingo <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine > > > > and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in > > > > the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done > > > > via inkjet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
2011-05-14 by Ingo
I guess that you have hit the point exactly. Inkjet can give very good results, but its not easy at all. One simply cannot expect that high accuracy without doing almost everything right. Its much much more demanding than just printing perfect photos. Ingo --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <twgray2007@...> wrote:
> > I don't think it is so much negative talk as it is disappointment that the process is not so easy as those of you who have had such stunning success make it seem. It is not that I don't believe it can be done, but it is definitely NOT a cookbook process and requires much fine tuning and tweaking...at least that is what I have found. I still hold great hope for this process. Ingo's pictures look practically as good a professional boards and that is what I am pursuing. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@> wrote: > > > > Nice work! That is impressive. > > > > Meanwhile, there is a lot of negative talk going on over in the inkjet PCB list, as if no one has ever gotten this to work. Go figure. > > > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. > > > > > >
2011-05-15 by Fast Eddie
Ingo, I think I've read that you build and sell the printers that produce these wonderful circuit boards, and I imagine that you must spend a fair amount of time with your customers helping them come up to speed with the software necessary to produce such beautiful PCBs. Would it be inappropriate to ask roughly how much it would cost, including printer, training, and inks, to get set up to produce boards as nice as the ones you photograph so well? I don't think I've read anything about the etching process involved, but I assume that would require strict process control as well, yes? I admire your work! --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@...> wrote:
> > I guess that you have hit the point exactly. Inkjet can give very good results, but its not easy at all. > One simply cannot expect that high accuracy without doing almost everything right. > Its much much more demanding than just printing perfect photos. > > > Ingo > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <twgray2007@> wrote: > > > > I don't think it is so much negative talk as it is disappointment that the process is not so easy as those of you who have had such stunning success make it seem. It is not that I don't believe it can be done, but it is definitely NOT a cookbook process and requires much fine tuning and tweaking...at least that is what I have found. I still hold great hope for this process. Ingo's pictures look practically as good a professional boards and that is what I am pursuing. > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@> wrote: > > > > > > Nice work! That is impressive. > > > > > > Meanwhile, there is a lot of negative talk going on over in the inkjet PCB list, as if no one has ever gotten this to work. Go figure. > > > > > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. > > > > > > > > > >
2011-05-15 by Piers Goodhew
That sure is amazing - from the microscope photos are you sandblasting the copper or something? PG
On 15/05/2011, at 2:55 AM, Ingo wrote: > I guess that you have hit the point exactly. Inkjet can give very good results, but its not easy at all. > One simply cannot expect that high accuracy without doing almost everything right. > Its much much more demanding than just printing perfect photos. > > Ingo >
2011-05-15 by Ingo
Hi Eddi, at the moment we only sell the small systems for customers who want to do single-side boards with much more rigid structures, and who are also familiar with etching. The reason for that is, that we don`t have a low budget version which is mechanical accurate enough in double-sided printing. My prototype is, but from there to affordable and reliable printers its still a way to go. We do have a printer (which you can`t see on our website) which is accurate enough, but thats a much bigger (500kg in the smallest version) and costly printer. We are offering training and consultancy - but usually in industrial setups with these bigger printers. I guess thats nothing affordable for the people who want to do prototypes for themselves. I am thinking about a solution for people like you, but I am nit there yet, and its not easy to establish it ia way so thats its a good deal for both. I hope I`ll get that done, but it still will take some time. Ingo The etching of the samples was done in a really easy setup; using a good spray etching system would show more precise results than the ones shown. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Fast Eddie" <epinnell@...> wrote:
> > Ingo, I think I've read that you build and sell the printers that produce these wonderful circuit boards, and I imagine that you must spend a fair amount of time with your customers helping them come up to speed with the software necessary to produce such beautiful PCBs. Would it be inappropriate to ask roughly how much it would cost, including printer, training, and inks, to get set up to produce boards as nice as the ones you photograph so well? I don't think I've read anything about the etching process involved, but I assume that would require strict process control as well, yes? > > I admire your work! > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > I guess that you have hit the point exactly. Inkjet can give very good results, but its not easy at all. > > One simply cannot expect that high accuracy without doing almost everything right. > > Its much much more demanding than just printing perfect photos. > > > > > > Ingo > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <twgray2007@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think it is so much negative talk as it is disappointment that the process is not so easy as those of you who have had such stunning success make it seem. It is not that I don't believe it can be done, but it is definitely NOT a cookbook process and requires much fine tuning and tweaking...at least that is what I have found. I still hold great hope for this process. Ingo's pictures look practically as good a professional boards and that is what I am pursuing. > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nice work! That is impressive. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, there is a lot of negative talk going on over in the inkjet PCB list, as if no one has ever gotten this to work. Go figure. > > > > > > > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ingo" <Ingo.Schuldes@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Just added two photos of a test pcb (only intended to examine and demonstrate the inkjet teechnique)in the specialprint folder in the photos section; the new photos are the blue pcbs. > > > > > > > > > > All steps -etchmask -soldermask including legends had been done via inkjet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
2011-05-15 by Ingo
No, its no sandblasting or similiar abrasive process. The microscope I used is a quite cheap one, I guess the "look" of the copper is mosty because of that. If you look in the older posts, you will find how the stripping is done. Ingo --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
> > That sure is amazing - from the microscope photos are you sandblasting the copper or something? > > PG > > On 15/05/2011, at 2:55 AM, Ingo wrote: > > > I guess that you have hit the point exactly. Inkjet can give very good results, but its not easy at all. > > One simply cannot expect that high accuracy without doing almost everything right. > > Its much much more demanding than just printing perfect photos. > > > > Ingo > > >