Homebrew_PCBs

> Anyone here every built a spray etcher ?
> I'm looking at building a spray etcher on the cheap, but I cannot find a
> suitable pump. Pressure requirements are fairly high for sprays nozzles
> to work effectively. The pump must be capable of at least 10 meter head
> (1 bar), but all low cost fountain pumps are rated no more than 4 meters
> head. Getting hold of a pump is the killer. Example, the Iwaki MD-70RZ
> has 16 meter head but sells for AU$500. The etchant I'm using won't
> effect stainless steel.
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>Anyone here every built a spray etcher ?
>I'm looking at building a spray etcher on the cheap, but I cannot
>find a suitable pump. Pressure requirements are fairly high for
>sprays nozzles to work effectively. The pump must be capable of
>at least 10 meter head (1 bar), but all low cost fountain pumps
>are rated no more than 4 meters head. Getting hold of a pump is
>the killer. Example, the Iwaki MD-70RZ has 16 meter head but
>sells for AU$500. The etchant I'm using won't effect stainless steel.
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:56:08 +0200, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

> I agree with Stefan that building a rotary kind of spray etcher is
> most likely a lot easier. I do have one that I boght a while ago. I
> first was happy, but over time it turned out that it does not create
> reliable reproduceable results. That's however not due to it's
> principle of operation but more because of some bad ideas on behalf of
> the manufacturer.
>
> I created a little homepage for you showing pictures of the
> (depreciated) etcher I have and most importantly a little video of the
> MUCH better Bungard spray etchers which should give you some good
> ideas on how to build your own.
>
> www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff
>
> Markus
>
>> Anyone here every built a spray etcher ?
>> I'm looking at building a spray etcher on the cheap, but I cannot find a
>> suitable pump. Pressure requirements are fairly high for sprays nozzles
>> to work effectively. The pump must be capable of at least 10 meter head
>> (1 bar), but all low cost fountain pumps are rated no more than 4 meters
>> head. Getting hold of a pump is the killer. Example, the Iwaki MD-70RZ
>> has 16 meter head but sells for AU$500. The etchant I'm using won't
>> effect stainless steel.
>>
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> I agree with Stefan that building a rotary kind of spray etcher is
> most likely a lot easier. I do have one that I boght a while ago. I
> first was happy, but over time it turned out that it does not create
> reliable reproduceable results. That's however not due to it's
> principle of operation but more because of some bad ideas on behalf of
> the manufacturer.
>
> I created a little homepage for you showing pictures of the
> (depreciated) etcher I have and most importantly a little video of the
> MUCH better Bungard spray etchers which should give you some good
> ideas on how to build your own.
>
> www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff
>
> Markus
>
>
>>Anyone here every built a spray etcher ?
>>I'm looking at building a spray etcher on the cheap, but I cannot
>>find a suitable pump. Pressure requirements are fairly high for
>>sprays nozzles to work effectively. The pump must be capable of
>>at least 10 meter head (1 bar), but all low cost fountain pumps
>>are rated no more than 4 meters head. Getting hold of a pump is
>>the killer. Example, the Iwaki MD-70RZ has 16 meter head but
>>sells for AU$500. The etchant I'm using won't effect stainless steel.
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>Thanks for the pointers to the rotary pipe etching machine.
>I would agree this machine looks mechanically simpler and
>cheaper than a oscillating spray nozzle type etched. I did
>have a suspicion that this may not give a totally uniform
>etch. From what the experts say about spray etching (or any
>cleaning) is the impact velocity of the liquid is what does
>the real work.

> Currently I have a bubble etched and it does
>not produce reliable etching. Despite many different
>arrangements of the air sparger I have tested, I found only
>a limited etch uniformity can be achieved.

>The second
>problem is etch undercut of the tin plating resist. The
>boards I'm making use the pattern plating process, where tin
>metal is plated on the tracks to act as a etch resist in a
>ammonical type etching solution. The tin overhangs the track
>a small amount and then breaks off creating slivers of tin
>and potential short circuits. I scrub the boards with a
>stiff nylon brush to remove the tin slivers.
>
>Going by what a couple of professionals have said and also
>from someone who built their own hobby spray etching
>machine, is that spray etching is the only way to get
>uniform etching and minimize etch undercut.

>I had some thought on the spray etcher design. I was going
>use some 20 mm PVC pipe and 4 pipe elbows to make up a
>rectangle frame which fits internal to the tank. A flexible
>rubber hose connects the pump outlet to the PVC pipe at some
>point where etchant is pumped in. Four spray nozzles are
>also fitted to the rectangular pipe frame such that they
>spray inwards to the center of the tank. The PCB will then
>hang vertically in the center of the tank and the PVC
>rectangular frame will sit horizontally and oscillate up and
>down spanning the PCB height. The mechanism to drive the
>oscillating rectangular frame will consist of eight pulleys,
>one at each inside corner of the tank. A cord will run
>passed the pulleys so when they rotate there are vertical
>cords moving at all four corners at the tank walls. The
>rectangular frame is attached to the vertical cords so it
>moves up and down as the pulleys rotate.
>A DC motor mounted outside on the tank lid will drive the
>inside pulleys via a belt. Two small holes in the lid will
>be needed to pass a drive belt.
>
>These nozzles are about AU$10 each
>http://www.bete.com/metric/products/pages/spn.htm

>I haven't yet found a solution for the pump.

>Adam
>
>
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> I agree with Stefan that building a rotary kind of spray etcher is
>> most likely a lot easier. I do have one that I boght a while ago. I
>> first was happy, but over time it turned out that it does not create
>> reliable reproduceable results. That's however not due to it's
>> principle of operation but more because of some bad ideas on behalf of
>> the manufacturer.
>>
>> I created a little homepage for you showing pictures of the
>> (depreciated) etcher I have and most importantly a little video of the
>> MUCH better Bungard spray etchers which should give you some good
>> ideas on how to build your own.
>>
>> www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>>>Anyone here every built a spray etcher ?
>>>I'm looking at building a spray etcher on the cheap, but I cannot
>>>find a suitable pump. Pressure requirements are fairly high for
>>>sprays nozzles to work effectively. The pump must be capable of
>>>at least 10 meter head (1 bar), but all low cost fountain pumps
>>>are rated no more than 4 meters head. Getting hold of a pump is
>>>the killer. Example, the Iwaki MD-70RZ has 16 meter head but
>>>sells for AU$500. The etchant I'm using won't effect stainless steel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

> @markus:
>
> i think your pump principle is like those medical "silicon hose

> pumps".
> they are used for pumping blood and other liquids.
> the advantage is the silicone hose can be replaced easily, making
> sterilization
> unneccesary, the expensive pump motor, casing etc. is reused...
>
> i have no idea where a rc plane builder may need such a pump (i'm

> involved
> in that now...). maybe for tank refueling on glow engine planes (i

> electric power).
>
> but i think this is not a pump for spray etching, it it a slow pump.
>
>
> what pump i suggest:
>
> it is not too hard to build a centrifugal pump.
> you can look for small aquarium pumps too.
> if you get a EHEIM pump (look at pc watercooling supplys)
> you may isolate the permanent magnet with thick laquer and that's

> it uses ceramic shaft, all other things are plastic i think (only

> permanent magnet rotor not).
>
> these are very good pumps and i think they would be well suited.
> (the winding is totally encased in plastic)
> (i cool my pc with it, so i know it... you can't hear these pumps

> meter away...)
>
> another option is to build the pump immersed in the etchant.
> the shaft goues up to the top and there is a motor mounted.
> use a plastic shaft or a (expensive) metal which is not etched.
>
> would be very easy to build from a small centrifugal pump where you

> take the motor out.
>
> do not try to use any commercial pump which uses some kind of

> a stuffing box.
> the etchant will get through and corrode the motor.
>
> the centrifugal pump is not very critical design, only needs a

> rotor.
> (easiest is taking one from another pump).
> piston pumps are difficult to keep sealed, with metal in the

>
> st

> The term is Peristaltic.
>
> "produced by the successive contraction of the muscular fibers of their
> walls, forcing their contents onwards; as, peristaltic movement. "
>
> This style pump offers dosing or low volume delivery of the fulids in
> question. Commercial dishwashers use these for soap.
>
> Not really high pressures, but higher than some other styles.
>
>
> Aquarium pumps can only deliver a very low pressure, nothing near what is
> needed to use a spray nozzle like the link listed, not even close. They
> are designed to move liguids in a tank, not create pressures in a pipe.
> However, some other spray nozzel would be possible, more of a flooding,
> dripping than a pressure washing.
>
> IF, chemical action was increased by new etchant and not by pressure,
> then a fish pump might work.
>
> Small chemical pumps are hard to come by, but you might try one of the
> professional spray systems for a parts replacement. Maybe you can get
> them to send a data sheet so you can figure out what the pump is like ?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> @markus:
>>
>> i think your pump principle is like those medical "silicon hose
> rotrary
>> pumps".
>> they are used for pumping blood and other liquids.
>> the advantage is the silicone hose can be replaced easily, making
>> sterilization
>> unneccesary, the expensive pump motor, casing etc. is reused...
>>
>> i have no idea where a rc plane builder may need such a pump (i'm
> kind of
>> involved
>> in that now...). maybe for tank refueling on glow engine planes (i
> only use
>> electric power).
>>
>> but i think this is not a pump for spray etching, it it a slow pump.
>>
>>
>> what pump i suggest:
>>
>> it is not too hard to build a centrifugal pump.
>> you can look for small aquarium pumps too.
>> if you get a EHEIM pump (look at pc watercooling supplys)
>> you may isolate the permanent magnet with thick laquer and that's
> it.
>> it uses ceramic shaft, all other things are plastic i think (only
> the
>> permanent magnet rotor not).
>>
>> these are very good pumps and i think they would be well suited.
>> (the winding is totally encased in plastic)
>> (i cool my pc with it, so i know it... you can't hear these pumps
> from 1
>> meter away...)
>>
>> another option is to build the pump immersed in the etchant.
>> the shaft goues up to the top and there is a motor mounted.
>> use a plastic shaft or a (expensive) metal which is not etched.
>>
>> would be very easy to build from a small centrifugal pump where you
> simply
>> take the motor out.
>>
>> do not try to use any commercial pump which uses some kind of
> sealing like
>> a stuffing box.
>> the etchant will get through and corrode the motor.
>>
>> the centrifugal pump is not very critical design, only needs a
> balanced
>> rotor.
>> (easiest is taking one from another pump).
>> piston pumps are difficult to keep sealed, with metal in the
> etchant.
>>
>> st
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>i think your pump principle is like those medical "silicon hose rotrary
>pumps".
>they are used for pumping blood and other liquids.
>the advantage is the silicone hose can be replaced easily, making
>sterilization
>unneccesary, the expensive pump motor, casing etc. is reused...
>
>i have no idea where a rc plane builder may need such a pump (i'm kind of
>involved
>in that now...). maybe for tank refueling on glow engine planes (i only use
>electric power).

>but i think this is not a pump for spray etching, it it a slow pump.

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:37:41 +0200, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

>> i think your pump principle is like those medical "silicon hose rotrary
>> pumps".
>> they are used for pumping blood and other liquids.
>> the advantage is the silicone hose can be replaced easily, making
>> sterilization
>> unneccesary, the expensive pump motor, casing etc. is reused...
>>
>> i have no idea where a rc plane builder may need such a pump (i'm kind
>> of involved
>> in that now...). maybe for tank refueling on glow engine planes (i only
>> use electric power).
>
> Yep, tank refueling is what they are used for.
>
>> but i think this is not a pump for spray etching, it it a slow pump.
>
> Would that not change if a motor is used? The tube could have a
> dameter of say 1/2" and this would transport quite a bit of etchant in
> a short tim - no? I can imagine that such a pump could do but then I
> don't have experience with pumps. It just apealed me because they seem
> to be easy to build and - based on their principle of operation they
> of course also would resist the etchant.
>
> Markus
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> The term is Peristaltic.
>
> "produced by the successive contraction of the muscular fibers of
> their walls, forcing their contents onwards; as, peristaltic
> movement. "
>
> This style pump offers dosing or low volume delivery of the fulids in
> question. Commercial dishwashers use these for soap.
>
> Not really high pressures, but higher than some other styles.

>
> Would that not change if a motor is used? The tube could have a
> dameter of say 1/2" and this would transport quite a bit of etchant

> a short tim - no? I can imagine that such a pump could do but then I
> don't have experience with pumps.

> Markus

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:37:37 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Using larger diameter silicone tubing means it isn't hard to fully
> collapse the tube for a peristaltic pump. And you always use 3 ball
> bearing rollers, can't just rub. A geared surplus DC motor or a
> stepping motor should work for this.
>
> To maintain pressure you could have a small reservoir tank. Sealed,
> with air inside. If you pump until it is half full, you've got 1
> atmosphere of pressure. You could even rig up a few photosensors to
> control the speed of the motor to regulate pressure.
>
> I was thinking of a pump idea for something else that may work here:
>
> Two one way valves (those little rubber ones you can get from a pet
> store for aquariums) rigged to a cavity. One wall of the cavity is a
> rubber membrane with a small woofer sealed to it. Not -quite-airtightso
> barometric changes don't bottom out the woofer. Experiment with a
> signal generator and find the best pumping frequency when it is
> pumping fluid.
>
> No idea how scalable that is or if it would provide sufficient
> flow/pressure. Maybe the outlet oneway valve could be exposed and it
> would spray out of that with sufficient flow (I'm talking about the
> ones that look like a flattened baby bottle nipple).
>
> Since the woofer has a back, too, potentially you could make a
> doublesided pump. Otherwise all that energy just goes into making your
> workshop noisy. Then you could seal the woofer in completely as
> barometric changes would make no difference, and rely on slow
> diffusion through the cone to keep pressure equalized across the woofer.
>
> There, I just gave away a good idea I probably should have kept to
> myself and developed, and offered for sale. :'/
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> For more details on operation principle, max flowrates, max pressures on
> peristaltic pumps (the ones that are using rollers combined with silicone
> or other tubing) visit thye following site: www.masterflex.com

> Hello Stefan,
>

>
> For more details on operation principle, max flowrates, max pressures on
> peristaltic pumps (the ones that are using rollers combined with silicone
> or other tubing) visit thye following site: www.masterflex.com
>
> My small business is the maintenance and repair of various medical
> equipment and I can assure you that no liquid is flowingback!
>

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:54:40 +0200, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

>> For more details on operation principle, max flowrates, max pressures
>> on
>> peristaltic pumps (the ones that are using rollers combined with
>> silicone
>> or other tubing) visit thye following site: www.masterflex.com
>
> Hmmm, seems like the page is down or such? I can't access it from
> here. Could someone confirm that the page is working?
>
> Markus
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> I have tried to use the natrium persulfate (Na2S2O8) for etching and
> remember reading somewhere that it can be regenerated. Any pointers
> where I could find more...
>
> Thanks, Radek
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> What you describe there is a simple membrane pump.
> thousands sold each year (a lot of them for air pumping).
> i tried it with a speaker @50hz, speaker diameter about 12cm.
> the membrane hat to be sealed (used silicone).
> with air id did make some suction (wanted it for vacuum-bag lamination).
> but not very much, very low efficiency. (@50hz)
> (membrane pp amplitude was 5mm - then it smoked, stopped to move and i
> discarded it ;-))

>
> Acording to Bungard the etching process of THEIR machines is total
> uniform - as oposed to the (el cheapo) machine I unfortunately first
> bought. I must admitt though that I don't have first hand experience
> with their machines. As soon as time permits - that's currently a bit
> a problem :) - I will take a closer look at this. I may end up buying
> one of those Bungard machines but we will see.
>

>
> I totaly agree on this one. IMHO serious (fine artwork) kind of PCB's
> can't be etched with those. I had one myself but it's sitting on the
> shelf now.

> I agree here too, but I think that the rotary principle is suffiently
> good to do this. Again, I can't proofe this at the very moment.

>
>
> This sounds like a good concept (and thanks for the pointer to the
> nozzles).

> Please keep us up to date on your progress. Etching is
> really the only step left here that does not work too well at the
> moment.

>>I haven't yet found a solution for the pump.
>
> Yes, I figure this is getting difficult. Have you ever considered
> building the pump also? I was thinking about having a PVC tube formed
> as a circle and then some kind of rotor equiped.....

>
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>>
>> Acording to Bungard the etching process of THEIR machines is total
>> uniform - as oposed to the (el cheapo) machine I unfortunately first
>> bought. I must admitt though that I don't have first hand experience
>> with their machines. As soon as time permits - that's currently a bit
>> a problem :) - I will take a closer look at this. I may end up buying
>> one of those Bungard machines but we will see.
>>
>
>
>What is the price of the Bungard etching machine ?

>>
>> I totaly agree on this one. IMHO serious (fine artwork) kind of PCB's
>> can't be etched with those. I had one myself but it's sitting on the
>> shelf now.
>
>Yep. :)
>
>
>
>> I agree here too, but I think that the rotary principle is suffiently
>> good to do this. Again, I can't proofe this at the very moment.
>
>If you end up buying the machine please keep the group informed
>on how well it works. I would be very interested to know.

>> This sounds like a good concept (and thanks for the pointer to the
>> nozzles).
>
>I actually put the wrong link to the nozzle. It should be
>http://www.bete.com/metric/products/pages/nf.htm
>At the moment I'm looking at getting a total of 6 x NF10 with 65
>degree fan angle and in 303 stainless steel. Just confirmed the
>price at AUD$10.45
>Because its an alkaline etchant I'm allowed to use stainless
>steel. Let me know if you want to know more details on the
>etching chemistry. It is electrically regeneratable.
>See http://www.elo-chem.com or google search "elo-chem"
>
>
>> Please keep us up to date on your progress. Etching is
>> really the only step left here that does not work too well at the
>> moment.
>
>Yep, I know what you mean. Once you get everything else working
>great, the quality of the etching step suddenly becomes an issue.
>
>>>I haven't yet found a solution for the pump.
>>
>> Yes, I figure this is getting difficult. Have you ever considered
>> building the pump also? I was thinking about having a PVC tube formed
>> as a circle and then some kind of rotor equiped.....
>
>I know the pump your talking about. I read all the other replies
>too. It appearing that the only pump to use is the magnetic drive
>centrifugal pump. The one I have in mind is the MD-70RZ(T), see;
>http://www.iwakiwalchem.com/iwaki/literature/Specsheets/MD5570100.pdf
>My uncle is a sales rep for Iwaki pumps, so if he will discount I
>will seriously think about taking the plunge.
>
>According to the graph it should pump 20 L/minute at 1.5 bar.
>Using this information the nozzle type can be calulated.
>
>The challenge now is to design the spray nozzle configuration so
>it etches uniformly. I've been told there is no simple solution
>for working out all the variables. There are things such as the
>number of nozzles, nozzle to nozzle spacing, distance from the
>panel, amount of overlap of the spray pattern, the fan angle, the
>jet incident angle to the panel, the linear sweeping speed of the
>jets, ect. Its one of those things that you just have to play
>with until you get it right. I might have to buy some cheap
>phenolic copper clad to experiment with.
>
>Adam

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> What you describe there is a simple membrane pump.
>> thousands sold each year (a lot of them for air pumping).
>> i tried it with a speaker @50hz, speaker diameter about 12cm.
>> the membrane hat to be sealed (used silicone).
>> with air id did make some suction (wanted it for vacuum-bag lamination).
>> but not very much, very low efficiency. (@50hz)
>> (membrane pp amplitude was 5mm - then it smoked, stopped to move and i
>> discarded it ;-))
>
> Phew, I don't feel so bad then.
>
> I wouldn't expect a diaphram style pump to be very good at pulling a
> vacuum.
>
> Steve

>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> The MK2 costs EUR 249
> the Turbo EZ is EUR 437 and
> the Turbo DZ is EUR 550
>
> I haven't made up my mind yet wether I'm going to buy one of

> not. I'm currently held busy elsewhere and will get back to

> and a decision as soon as time permits. I mean building one

> also going to cost money so the result of a homebuilt one

> have to be better or then I must be sure that time and money will
> result in a lower price (which based on the exeperience with

> the through plating machine I somehow doubht).
>
>
>
> The biggest chalange with home built machines that you design

> is (IMHO) that you always must take the risk of buying parts

> try if it works out well and there is some (not so low)

> stuff that you buy where you end up with the conclusion that

> not work well hence the money for it is most often lost. It's

> lot easier to build something after plans or such based on other
> peoples experience than develop all by yourself although the

> undoubtly much more fun.
>
> With regard to the rotary spray etcher I really somehow doubht

> worth the effort to design one bymyself because the prices -

> not really cheap - are still in a range where building one myself
> could turn out to be a bad deal. This was very different with the
> through plating machine where nothing in a compareable

> quality of course) was available. This statement is however

> related to your plans of building the kind of machine you are

> of cause I do agree that this machine will be much closer to

> use in professional board shops.
>
> Markus
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

>
>

> From the prices you listed, it seems the MK2 etching system
>costs about the same as the MD-70RZ pump I'm looking at buying
>for the spray etcher. To decide if it is worthwhile building a
>spray etcher using this pump then it will have to be perform a
>lot better than the MK2 machine.

>I understand your arguments on home built machines. From my
>experience I believe in general its not worth your time and money
>building something yourself if it is already commercially
>available and all you are interested in at the end of the day is
>something to do the job.

>As you mentioned there are other risks
>with home build equipment, like the finances of reiterating
>designs before having something finally workable. There is a
>learning curve which may or many not be enjoyable for you.

> It
>sounds like you have also had some disappointing results with
>some past projects.

>I can tell you I've had my fair share of
>disaster projects. I'm almost too embarrassed to mention them
>all, and would hate to think the amount of money I've wasted over
>the past three years.

> I cannot tell you whether you should buy
>the rotary spray etcher since I'm unfamiliar with its concept.

>If
>you were to make one then I would recommend using the spray
>nozzle/pump approach because it is a more proven method of
>etching PCBs. I am still pondering over the design so it can be
>constructed with minimal effort, which is the aim. My reasons for
>build my own spray etcher are;
>
>* I have enough evidence to show a well setup spray etcher gives
>the best quality etching.
>* Commercial spray etchers (not the rotating tube type) are many
>times more expensive than the cost of parts to build my own.
>* Based on the things I've learnt from building other chemical
>processing equipment, this does not look like an extremely
>complicated project.
>* I enjoy tinkering in the workshop and creating things.
>* I am not time constrained.

>When I have something working I will publish the construction
>details on my web address for anyone else who is interested.

> I
>get the feeling there aren't too many fanatics like you and me
>out there who will actually be silly enough to attempt home
>brewed through hole plated PCBs :)
>
>Adam

>
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>
>
> > The MK2 costs EUR 249
> > the Turbo EZ is EUR 437 and
> > the Turbo DZ is EUR 550
> >
> > I haven't made up my mind yet wether I'm going to buy one of
>those or
> > not. I'm currently held busy elsewhere and will get back to
>this topic
> > and a decision as soon as time permits. I mean building one
>myself is
> > also going to cost money so the result of a homebuilt one
>either would
> > have to be better or then I must be sure that time and money will
> > result in a lower price (which based on the exeperience with
>building
> > the through plating machine I somehow doubht).
> >
> >
> >
> > The biggest chalange with home built machines that you design
>yourself
> > is (IMHO) that you always must take the risk of buying parts
>to just
> > try if it works out well and there is some (not so low)
>percentage of
> > stuff that you buy where you end up with the conclusion that
>it does
> > not work well hence the money for it is most often lost. It's
>quite a
> > lot easier to build something after plans or such based on other
> > peoples experience than develop all by yourself although the
>latter is
> > undoubtly much more fun.
> >
> > With regard to the rotary spray etcher I really somehow doubht
>if it's
> > worth the effort to design one bymyself because the prices -
>although
> > not really cheap - are still in a range where building one myself
> > could turn out to be a bad deal. This was very different with the
> > through plating machine where nothing in a compareable
>pricerange (and
> > quality of course) was available. This statement is however
>not really
> > related to your plans of building the kind of machine you are
>thinking
> > of cause I do agree that this machine will be much closer to
>what they
> > use in professional board shops.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks
>and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

>Markus, and others who have done these things on a limited budget:
>Would you please describe your process, or provide a pointer to some
>such description on the web?

>I have made a few small double sided boards using photosensitized
>boards, but haven’t attempted PTH’s or multilayers.

>I have heard of a product that might be of use in making multiplayer
>boards: There are thin sheets of copper on some sort of insulating
>backing material. The sheets are thin and flexible enough that they can
>be run through a laser printer. (Small pieces can be cut out and taped
>to a full-size sheet of paper before sending through the printer.) The
>laser toner protects the copper, so the copper sheet can then be etched
>immediately. I read about this product and how to use it in a hobbyist
>electronics magazine around 1995. Some hobbyist supply company offered
>to sell small quantities of the material. The cost for ten 8 ½ x 11
>inch sheets was less than $100 – maybe much less, I don’t remember.

----- Original Message -----
From: Markus Zingg
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] pump for spray etching


> For more details on operation principle, max flowrates, max pressures on
> peristaltic pumps (the ones that are using rollers combined with silicone
> or other tubing) visit thye following site: www.masterflex.com

Hmmm, seems like the page is down or such? I can't access it from
here. Could someone confirm that the page is working?


Markus

It is down at the moment. They probably do sometime of system maintenance Friday evening. A friend of mine used to work for them. I asked about getting a free pump for pcb etching, and he said that the flow rate would be way too low so I never pursued it.

Thanks
Ron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >Markus, and others who have done these things on a limited budget:
> >Would you please describe your process, or provide a pointer to

> >such description on the web?
>
> Adam and I both have independantly developped a through hole plating
> setup. I can't tell much about Adam's (I figure though he will give
> you informations) but I do have a page set up that showes the

> I built on my own.
>
> www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps
>
> The pages are not absolutely up to date but should give lot's of
> information. With my "apraoch" the key point to understand is that I
> do not mix my chemicals "on my own" but use the same chemistry as

> deliverd to board houses. I have mine from Bungard, but it seems

> they have it from "J-Kem International" (who ever this might be). I
> don't care cause those huge firms usually don't deliver small enough
> quantities as Bugnard does. Another way might be to contact a board
> house and ask if they mey sell some of their chemistry. I figure

> may do once they understand that this is about hobbyists use etc.
>
> The remaining part then is to create the tanks and the electronics
> needed for agitation and mainly for the electrolytic process itself.
>
> Once these "investments" are made, producing throughplates PCB's
> becomes very cheap, painless and fast. All you need is copper clated
> material and of course laminate. There is thin copper clated FR4
> material available also at reasonable prices. I use 0.5mm for the
> inner layer and 0.3mm for the outer layers in case of a four layer
> board thereby getting four layer board of the same thinkness as

> made by boardhouses.
>
> The process is not that different from creating double sided PCB's

> that you first laminate, expose and developp and etch the inner

> then glue the outer layers onto the two sides. Then you drill holes
> (not before this) so as the drill goes through the copper of the

> layers at those places where it should (the layout must be made so

> the pads don't have holes). If you then through plate this "stack"

> outer surfaces are conneted to the inner layers whre they should.

> this point on there is no difference in createing a double sided

> that said you simply laminate the outer layers, expose and developp
> and etch it.
>
> A key point is aligning the layers. I do this with two special
> diagonaly psoitioned holes of 3mm diameter that I drill through all
> the layers as the first step. The films I use to expose also get

> holes. My english is unfortunately not good enough to describe how I
> manage to create precisely positioned 3mm diameter holes into the
> films but I "stamp"? them out using a little tool I built by myself.
> To create this tool I used 3mm diameter silver steel and used a

> drill to drill a hole into one end. This results in a very sharp

> Anyways, once the holse are within the layers and the films, all can
> be precisely alligned using 3mm sized pin's. Since I do not have a

> drill yet (well, I'm in the process of building one myself but since
> I'm currently held busy with other stuff it's laying around for some
> months now) I'm actualy laminating a layout to one of the outer

> at an early stage using a film where the holes of the vias and pads
> are not covered. This laminate get's then only exposed and

> and then serves as a help in hand drilling the holes into the

> places. Btw, this method of using pin's works so nicely that I also
> use it for double sided PCB's to alling the film which before always
> used to be a bit trickey.
>
> An important thing is also the glueing. It's very important to make
> sure that glue is everywhere and that there are no air inclusions
> between the layers. I asure this by glueing both sides in one shot,
> applying the glue to the INNER layer only and by only applying a
> fairly thinn layer of glue (2 components glue that dryes in 5

> from the hardware store is fine. I.e. 5 min epoxy or similar). The
> reason why I apply the glue to the inner layer is that it's

> by the artwork and by doing so it's obvious that those parts without
> copper get enough glue so as there is no air at those spots later

> After having applied the glue to the inner layer, I position the

> layers again using the two 3mm pins and apply as much pressure as I
> can. I created a little wooden construction for this purpose that
> holds two vices positioned in such a way so as I can apply pressure

> an as big area of the PCB as possible. Of yourse, during this

> the PCB is covered by two wood pieces so as it does not get

> or bent by the vices and also to more evenly apply the pressure.
>
> That's mostly it. It sounds a lot more complicated than it actually
> is. In fact the key point is to have a through hole station. The

> same principle can be used to create 6 layers or more. The only
> difference is that you have to glue twice. The holes are however
> always only drilled after glueing the most outher layers.
>
> If you also apply a solder stop mask to the outer layers (I do have
> one that can be laminated, exposed an developped - again Bungard is
> your friend) the look and feel of such a PCB is identical to one

> by a board house. Since I most often use this only for prototypes I
> don't apply solder stop mask very often but it works quite well.
>
> >I have made a few small double sided boards using photosensitized
> >boards, but haven't attempted PTH's or multilayers.
>
> I figure you are in the same boat as most homebrewers here then.
>
> >I have heard of a product that might be of use in making

> >boards: There are thin sheets of copper on some sort of insulating
> >backing material. The sheets are thin and flexible enough that

> >be run through a laser printer. (Small pieces can be cut out and

> >to a full-size sheet of paper before sending through the

> >laser toner protects the copper, so the copper sheet can then be

> >immediately. I read about this product and how to use it in a

> >electronics magazine around 1995. Some hobbyist supply company

> >to sell small quantities of the material. The cost for ten 8 ½ x

> >inch sheets was less than $100 – maybe much less, I don't remember.
>
> I never heard of such a product, but IMHO $100 for this size is way
> too much. For that price I would have my boards made by a board

>
> As stated in my other post, I have a hard time to understand why
> people seem to be so shy of using this aproach. Hey, it's nothing

> than 5 tanks with chemicals in them - really no rocket sience to

> use it this way.
>
> Markus

>Hi, Markus
>
>I am also a homebrewer and like to handle the PTH thing also myself.
>
>Got on this moment only two questions:
>1: the cuvets (fluid units)where they made off and how they glued
>together (type of gleu)

>2: chemical 1# part, is it electroless chem. cu. because some systems
>use a pasta
>if it is possible the names of the chems.

>i already use dry film - spray etch and cnc drilling and works for
>several years now .

>many greatfull thanks in adv.

> i already use dry film - spray etch and cnc drilling and works for
> several years now .
>

>
>
> roel_cnc wrote:
> > i already use dry film - spray etch and cnc drilling and works

> > several years now .
> >
>
> How do you apply the dry film ?

> I have been applying dry film with a wetted hand roller, see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/2709
>
>
> And I'm really interested how you managed to get a spray
> etching machine for home use, and would also be curious in
> the concept of its design. ? I am in the process of
> designing my own.

>
> Adam

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
>>
>>roel_cnc wrote:
>>
>>>i already use dry film - spray etch and cnc drilling and works
>
> for
>
>>>several years now .
>>>
>>
>>How do you apply the dry film ?
>
> not with (boiling)water - it wolnd be a dry film anymore :)
> I used in the past a aloy plate aprox. 30 mm thick and build a heater
> from a washing machine:) in, and a thermo unit from an oven to
> control temp.(+/-100 C.)
> clean the board putt the film on and lay it on the heated element-
> instant roll with a soft one over it pressing hard off cause.
> i still use this for the soldermask dry film part
>
> the resist (new way) i use this moment parts from an big copier
> silicon roll with heater inside - works awesome.
>
> remember there are 2 sorts off film the resist and soldermask ive got
> from both 2 rolls 25 meters eatch as samples :)
>
>
>
>
> the spray etcher i build has on both sides a ring off pvc pipe (used
> as air-pressure tube in factory's) with nozzles from a carwash unit.
> just washing your car sometimes with the right wrench :) wil do.
> same unit for development but cheaper pump
>
> the pump is the most expensive part off all got some docs somewere
> around - and dont forget a real pump use atleast 1 to 1,5hp motor
>

> What type of etching solution do you use ? I assume
> everything is plastic, including the nozzles. A 1,5hp pump
> definitely is a good size. I was thinking of using more like
> 1/4 hp centrifuge pump. to give 1,5 bar at 20 liters/minute.
> That should be enough for a single sided spray etch with
> sweeping spray nozzles. Does the spray oscillate in any way
> or is both the PCB and the spray stay still during the
> entire etching time ?
>
> I do not have any solder mask material yet. Does the
> soldermask you own work by photo imaging ? If so then does
> it also develop in 1% sodium carbonate ?

>
>
>>What type of etching solution do you use ? I assume...
>
> the pcb oscillate about 10 cm

> 10 nozzles per side makes 20 off it
> volume off etch is about 25 liters
> i use the fe3 the brown fluid.

> the soldermask works the same way - only after developing extra uv
> cure and after that an oven cure for 60 min at 159 C if you can get
> the same film (dynachem laminar DM)

>
>
> roel_cnc wrote:
> >
> >
> >>What type of etching solution do you use ? I assume...
> >
> > the pcb oscillate about 10 cm
>
> Does it oscillate side to side movement or is it spinning ?
>
> > 10 nozzles per side makes 20 off it
> > volume off etch is about 25 liters
> > i use the fe3 the brown fluid.
>
> Is your pump a centrifugal or a diaphragm type ?
> Do you have a model number for the pump ?
> I found a company, www.flojet.com (web site seems to be down at
> the moment). They make a large range of relatively small electric
> diaphragm pumps. These pumps are higher pressure and low volume
> compared to centrifuge type. You probably know that spray nozzles
> need good pressure to work effectively.
> Did you consider using proper chemical etching nozzles ?
> What is the spray pattern on the nozzles you are using ? Fan or
> cone type ?
> I have read that the spray pattern and the positioning of the
> nozzles is critical for uniform etching. Did you experiment with
> different nozzle configurations until you were happy with the
> etching results ?
>
>
> > the soldermask works the same way - only after developing extra

> > cure and after that an oven cure for 60 min at 159 C if you can

> > the same film (dynachem laminar DM)
>
> Thanks, it seems I should try and get hold of some of this
> soldermask. I wonder if its more expensive than photoresist.
> Here is the datasheet for the laminar DM;
> http://www.interflux.pl/wwwpages/products/shipley/laminar-dm.pdf
>
> I guess its not possible for soldermask to be stripped off the
> board after it is fully cured. Methylene chloride paint stripper
> should work, but that will kill the epoxy laminate material too.

> are from Bungard. It's the "entry chemicals set" for their "Compacta
> 30" throughplating machine (which is btw. in a completely different
> league than my machine - IMHO ~8000$). This set is reasonably priced
> and because the Compacta 30 operates with 15 and 30 litter tanks as
> oposed to my machine (2 and 5 liters) the chemicals obviousely last
> longer. Everythnig (chemical wise) is included in this set. I also
> ordered replacement Anodes for this same "Compacta 30" model cause
> they are well suited for my machine also.

>>> I can send you a pdf describing the baths a bit more closely <<<<

> Markus

> I honestly don't fully understand this question. Again, the chemicals
> are from Bungard. It's the "entry chemicals set" for their "Compacta
> 30" throughplating machine (which is btw. in a completely different
> league than my machine - IMHO ~8000$). This set is reasonably priced
> and because the Compacta 30 operates with 15 and 30 litter tanks as
> oposed to my machine (2 and 5 liters) the chemicals obviousely last
> longer. Everythnig (chemical wise) is included in this set. I also
> ordered replacement Anodes for this same "Compacta 30" model cause
> they are well suited for my machine also. I can....

>
>
> A two stage counterflow rinse stage would consist of two
> tanks next to each other, the first tank (the tank you first
> dip) has about 1" higher liquid level than the second tank.
> The wall between the two tanks has a open hole so the first
> tank pours into the second tank when its liquid level goes
> above this hole. The second tank has an effluent hole about
> 1" below this level. If you are a bit interested in
> counterflow rinsing then check out;
> http://www.justoffbase-tools.co.uk/tools.asp?parent=1I2433P1056M0

>
> some links
>
> www.hendor.com for pumps i use m62 6000 liters p/h
> thats why i use 25 liters of etch and dont forget the anti foam
> additif or it will rise up to the sealing. :)
> www.bete.com for the nozzles i use similar to the nfs12 Fan 120°
> 4L p/m 20x that makes a total of 4800 L p/h
> heater is a 1 kw flat wire teflon coated no url aviable yet
>

> and I also got the liquid levels mixed up, The second tank
> has a higher level than the first tank.

> From what I imagine, you have all the tanks close to each
>other and you dip the boards in the appropriate order in
>each bath.

>Obviously you must rinse between baths so that
>the subsequent baths do not become cross contaminated at any
> appreciable rate. I'm wondering how you do the rinsing. Do
>you have the tanks near a water tap, and simply lift the
>board from the process tank, wait 20 seconds to finish
>dripping, move to the running water tap, rinse, wait another
>20 seconds to drip, then proceed to the next process tank?

>I am thinking of building my own processing tanks, but
>wondering if its worth including the rinse tanks after each
>stage. Like you I have managed to weld 3 mm PVC plastic
>sheet (the gray stuff) and I bought a secondhand hot air
>welder for this job. I also built a plastic sheet bender
>using a hot element wire running a line in the middle of the
>piece of particle board. I found it impossible to get
>straight and neat right angle bends using only a hot air
>gun.

>The best way to construct a series of small narrow
>tanks is to divide a big tank into small ones by welding
>dividers inside. In this way 10 or 15 separate baths could
>easily be built with the least amount of welding and materials.

> A two stage counterflow rinse stage would consist of two
>tanks next to each other, the first tank (the tank you first
>dip) has about 1" higher liquid level than the second tank.
>The wall between the two tanks has a open hole so the first
>tank pours into the second tank when its liquid level goes
>above this hole. The second tank has an effluent hole about
>1" below this level. If you are a bit interested in
>counterflow rinsing then check out;
>http://www.justoffbase-tools.co.uk/tools.asp?parent=1I2433P1056M0
>
>Theoretically a 20cm x 20cm PCB will need 100 mL of fresh
>water added each rinse cycle to keep the concentration of
>the second rinse tank 1/1000 of the process tank in a two
>stage counterflow rinse system.
>If 3 stage counterflow rinse is used the concentration of
>the final tank is reduced to 0.005% or 50 ppm. Ok its clear
>2 stage rinsing is more than enough for the job.

>In your setup, is it possible to empty individual baths ? I
>was thinking of welding small block of plastic to the tank
>bottom and then tap a 3/4" BSP thread into this block for
>screwing in a drum tap. Something like shown
>http://www.justoffbase-tools.co.uk/tools.asp?parent=1I2433P1056M0

>My aim is to have then entire PCB processing equipment in
>the one area so I can make a board without having to run
>around over the place. By including rinse tanks I think it
>will make the job easier to control. Would you agree ?

> Yes, however the tanks are SEPERATED from each other by a ~1" sized
> gap. That's needed cause the temperature of the baths must be
> controlled individually. That's important here and I mention it to
> give another indication why creating a tank and puting in walls is a
> bad idea here.

>
> Ok, here we go:

> bath #1 is a Cleaner Conditioner that must be run at 65-70 degrees
> celsius (149 - 158 farenheit) the PCB must reside in this bath for 7
> minutes. Thereafter there is a 1 minutes static rinse followed by 1
> minute spray rinse .

> I rinse the pcb's simply in a water tank, then go to the wall water
> outlet? (don't know the propper english term) and rinse it there for
> another minute. I use a kitchen timer watch to controll the durations
> and take very much care to stay within these times and temperatures. I
> never had a problem yet by doing so.

>
> I wanted to do something with such a drum tap but haven't found them
> here. Since with my station the tanks simply are standing within the
> grid takeing them out even if they are full is no problem. Once they
> are out they can easily be emptied into normal plastic tanks. In
> general this is definately a very good idea cause some of the fluids
> tend to "vaporize" away if the tanks are not closed - which is hard to
> achive. So, if you can empty the tanks whenever the station is not
> needed this is definately the best solution. Aditionally you will find
> that the stations remains a lot cleaner over time this way.

>>My aim is to have then entire PCB processing equipment in
>>the one area so I can make a board without having to run
>>around over the place. By including rinse tanks I think it
>>will make the job easier to control. Would you agree ?
>
>
> Yes, I agree that having the rinse tanks close is a good idea. I don't
> know though if you manage to have a good spray rinse situation without
> too much hazzle though.

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
>
> To Markus,
> Why are the anodes bagged/enveloped with clothes!
>
> i did try that welding part on some hobby glas and pvc sheets with no
> luck at all- even after a week or 4 no real (strong)rigid weldings
> are posible.
> I created me a vacuum unit - that do the job perfect :))
>
> gr. Roel
>

>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
>
>To Markus,
>Why are the anodes bagged/enveloped with clothes!
>
>i did try that welding part on some hobby glas and pvc sheets with no
>luck at all- even after a week or 4 no real (strong)rigid weldings
>are posible.
>I created me a vacuum unit - that do the job perfect :))
>
>gr. Roel

>Hi Markus
> the tanks are ready so no more welding or glue :))
>But i will try again with the info pdf from >>Adam<< <(thanks)
>the idea of vacuming i found on the net
>www.xs4all.nl/~atmel/thermomoulage1.avi
> www.xs4all.nl/~atmel/thermomoulage2.avi
>practical the same as i have build
>and about 5 min per tank to make
> pics will come as soon i get hold on to a camera
>
>Question why are the anodes on your pics covert with clothes!
> next the heated tanks do they have air agitation otherwise it get a
>more hot to the element as eslewere in the tank!

>perhaps we should talk more ore less about the hazards and
>power .psu. thats involved for the people who's gonna trie to build

>>Hi Markus
>>
>>Question why are the anodes on your pics covert with clothes!
>> next the heated tanks do they have air agitation otherwise it get a
>>more hot to the element as eslewere in the tank!
>
>
> Uh, yes, I forgot to answer this part. They are here to keep small
> copper wires that will be created by the process away from the PCB
> where they obviousely could create short cuts. For a homebrew station
> - due to the smaller number of runs - maybe not that much of an issue,
> but they were part of the anode package as I bought it.
>

>What small copper wires are you talking about ?

> I thought
>the anode and cathode (PCB) are well separated so there
>cannot be any possibility of contact.
>
>Anode bags are very often used in many types of plating
>baths. I know that for bright acid copper sulfate plating
>the bags are used to inhibit solution flow around the anode
>surface and preserve the black (or dark brown) film that
>normally forms. I am using Macuspec 9241 brightener from
>Macdermid and the data sheet stresses that anode bags must
>be used. Well, since it didn't give any reasons why anode
>bags must be used I didn't believe it and so I didn't use
>any. Hmmm, yep, I soon learned why the bags are important.
>The black film on anodes that's formed during plating is
>very fragile and may easily strip off with air bubble
>agitation. In these conditions the film is continuously
>forming and releasing into the solution. After plating just
>one PCB I could see enough precipitate produced that the
>bottom of the tank was covered with a dark powder. I
>installed the proper anode bags and it solved the problem
>totally. I later read in plating books that the anode film
>in bright acid copper plating is important for correct
>dissolution of the anode.
>
>Interesting , originally when I was plating with no
>additives (200g/L H2S04 , 75g/L CuS04.5H20), the anodes
>would not form this dark brown film, and would be more
>stable. But there were still some anode film and small
>amount of copper powder would release into the bath.
>
>I also found that plating with low acid high copper
>(75g/L H2S04 , 200g/L CuS04.5H20) then anodes dissolve much
>cleaner and remain pink, but of course this bath has
>terrible plating uniformity and is why no one uses it to
>plate PCBs.
>
>The anode bags are normally polypropylene fabric, that looks
>very much like white denim. You could probably use 2 or 3
>layers of 100% polyester fabric. I would first put it in
>some 200g/L sulfuric acid for a week so that any thing in it
>that might react with the acid will do so before in goes
>into your plating tank.
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

> Hi Adam
>
> >What small copper wires are you talking about ?
>
> Good question :) That's what someone told me they
> are used for. Well,
> I used the station during some runs without those
> bags and could not
> see a difference in the results. There are also no
> visible wires or
> such, so maybe they surf another purpose - hell,
> most likely the one
> you describe.
>
> I also use brigthner and the anodes also became this
> dark "patina"
> which I was told is good/important for the process.
> I do have the bags
> mounted and since I have them I never felt motivated
> to try without.
> Might be that I under estimate their effect. I must
> say though that I
> don't use air agitation in my tanks.
>
> Markus

> Hi Adam
>
>
>>What small copper wires are you talking about ?
>
>
> Good question :) That's what someone told me they are used for. Well,
> I used the station during some runs without those bags and could not
> see a difference in the results. There are also no visible wires or
> such, so maybe they surf another purpose - hell, most likely the one
> you describe.
>
> I also use brigthner and the anodes also became this dark "patina"
> which I was told is good/important for the process. I do have the bags
> mounted and since I have them I never felt motivated to try without.
> Might be that I under estimate their effect. I must say though that I
> don't use air agitation in my tanks.
>

>Markus,
>
>I am in the process of building a copper plating
>station for thru-hole plating. What you are describing
>is very similar to the descriptions that I have read
>about while researching this topic. Is there a website
>with pictures and/or describing what you have done?
>
>I am very interested in how you physically set your
>plating station as the chemistry you are employing.
>
>
>Best regards
>
>Marvin Dickens

> Hi Marvin
>
> Yes, I created a little site about the station. See
> here:
>
> www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps
>
> Markus
>

>Hello Markus!
>
>Your station is most excellent! Questions:
>
>1.) What/who's chemistry are you using?

>2.) How many volts/amps do you? Are you
> using a formula to calculate
> voltage/amperage verses board size?

>3.) What is the composition of your anodes
> and what is thier weight/size?

>Before I saw what you had done, I had already begun
>construction of a similar thru-hole plating system.
>Like you, I came to the conclusion that what I needed
>was a station that was built on time tested
>technology. In other words, I wanted to build a
>smaller version of
>what large companies use to thru-hole plate (In fact,
>all of the tools/fixtures/equipment I have made are
>based on proven industry technology).
>
>Currently, I have the tank, card holders and
>circulation system completed. I still have
>build/engineer the rectifier (power supply), purchase
>anodes and descide on a chemistry. My plan is to
>complete this station, work the kinks/problems out and
>then build a tinning station.

>Your station is of professional quality. Further,
>I am impressed (Not that it really matters...).

>FWIW, you may want to cross post/link your station
>to:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electroplating

> Hello Markus!
>
> Your station is most excellent! Questions:
>
> 1.) What/who's chemistry are you using?
> 2.) How many volts/amps do you? Are you
> using a formula to calculate
> voltage/amperage verses board size?
> 3.) What is the composition of your anodes
> and what is thier weight/size?
>
>
> Before I saw what you had done, I had already begun
> construction of a similar thru-hole plating system.
> Like you, I came to the conclusion that what I needed
> was a station that was built on time tested
> technology. In other words, I wanted to build a
> smaller version of
> what large companies use to thru-hole plate (In fact,
> all of the tools/fixtures/equipment I have made are
> based on proven industry technology).
>
> Currently, I have the tank, card holders and
> circulation system completed. I still have
> build/engineer the rectifier (power supply), purchase
> anodes and descide on a chemistry. My plan is to
> complete this station, work the kinks/problems out and
> then build a tinning station.
>
> Your station is of professional quality. Further,
> I am impressed (Not that it really matters...).
> FWIW, you may want to cross post/link your station
> to:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electroplating
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Marvin Dickens
>

> Hi,
>
> info to Adam and Markus :)
> Buy me new wire and sheet pvc today.!
> pitty is wire gose only per 2 kilo's
>
> Its fantastic and strong (AWESOME)
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
> to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
> small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
> in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
> sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
> triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
> break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
> at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
> is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
> the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
> and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
> too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
> much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
> everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
> the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
> contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>
> Adam

On 5 Nov 2003, at 07:40, markuszingg wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>> This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
>> to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
>> small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
>> in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
>> sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
>> triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
>> break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
>> at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
>> is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
>> the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
>> and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
>> too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
>> much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
>> everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
>> the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
>> contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>>
>> Adam
>
> Hi Adam
>
> The trick that I use is the hot air welding gun itself. It's
> temperature is automatically controlled and it is having a digital
> display showing the temperature which also can be used to set the
> temperature requested. It then takes the gun probably 10 seconds or
> so to reach a new temeparature level and it then stays there. This
> really helps a lot in getting consistent good results.
>
> Markus
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/bGYolB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
Simon Whitehead
s.whitehead@...

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
>>This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
>>to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
>>small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
>>in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
>>sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
>>triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
>>break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
>>at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
>>is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
>>the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
>>and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
>>too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
>>much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
>>everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
>>the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
>>contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>>
>>Adam
>
>
> Hi Adam
>
> The trick that I use is the hot air welding gun itself. It's
> temperature is automatically controlled and it is having a digital
> display showing the temperature which also can be used to set the
> temperature requested. It then takes the gun probably 10 seconds or
> so to reach a new temeparature level and it then stays there. This
> really helps a lot in getting consistent good results.
>
> Markus
>
>
>

>Markus,
>
>Which hot air gun do you use?
>
>Simon
>
>On 5 Nov 2003, at 07:40, markuszingg wrote:
>
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
>> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>>> This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
>>> to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
>>> small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
>>> in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
>>> sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
>>> triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
>>> break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
>>> at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
>>> is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
>>> the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
>>> and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
>>> too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
>>> much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
>>> everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
>>> the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
>>> contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>
>> Hi Adam
>>
>> The trick that I use is the hot air welding gun itself. It's
>> temperature is automatically controlled and it is having a digital
>> display showing the temperature which also can be used to set the
>> temperature requested. It then takes the gun probably 10 seconds or
>> so to reach a new temeparature level and it then stays there. This
>> really helps a lot in getting consistent good results.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> ---------------------~-->
>> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
>> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
>> Canada.
>> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/bGYolB/TM
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ~->
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Simon Whitehead
>s.whitehead@...
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

> Seinel Modell HL2305 LCD
>
> I really can highly recomend this one. It's not even that expensive.
>
> http://www.steinel.de/englisch/index.html
>
> there click on "Products for DIY ers" then on "Hot Air Guns" it's the
> first one on the left.
>
> Markus
>
>
>>Markus,
>>
>>Which hot air gun do you use?
>>
>>Simon
>>
>>On 5 Nov 2003, at 07:40, markuszingg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
>>><adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>>>
>>>>This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
>>>>to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
>>>>small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
>>>>in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
>>>>sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
>>>>triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
>>>>break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
>>>>at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
>>>>is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
>>>>the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
>>>>and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
>>>>too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
>>>>much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
>>>>everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
>>>>the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
>>>>contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>>>>
>>>>Adam
>>>
>>>Hi Adam
>>>
>>>The trick that I use is the hot air welding gun itself. It's
>>>temperature is automatically controlled and it is having a digital
>>>display showing the temperature which also can be used to set the
>>>temperature requested. It then takes the gun probably 10 seconds or
>>>so to reach a new temeparature level and it then stays there. This
>>>really helps a lot in getting consistent good results.
>>>
>>>Markus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>>---------------------~-->
>>>Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
>>>Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
>>>Canada.
>>>http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
>>>http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/bGYolB/TM
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>~->
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Simon Whitehead
>>s.whitehead@...
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>A friend of mine has got one of those Steinel LCD guns, I
>should of tried it before spending my money on that old and
>used Leister hot air welder. The air pressure from a hot air
>welder is a lot higher than a heat gun, so I'm not sure how
>well it will work, but if you had successfully built your
>tanks from it then I cannot see any major problem with using
>a general purpose hot air gun. All the reducing nozzles for
>hot air guns also have a side vent that can get annoying.
>The side vent is probably there to prevent too much
>restriction of air flow.
>
>Adam
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>
>> Seinel Modell HL2305 LCD
>>
>> I really can highly recomend this one. It's not even that expensive.
>>
>> http://www.steinel.de/englisch/index.html
>>
>> there click on "Products for DIY ers" then on "Hot Air Guns" it's the
>> first one on the left.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>>>Markus,
>>>
>>>Which hot air gun do you use?
>>>
>>>Simon
>>>
>>>On 5 Nov 2003, at 07:40, markuszingg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
>>>><adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
>>>>>to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
>>>>>small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
>>>>>in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
>>>>>sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
>>>>>triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
>>>>>break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
>>>>>at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
>>>>>is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
>>>>>the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
>>>>>and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
>>>>>too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
>>>>>much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
>>>>>everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
>>>>>the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
>>>>>contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>>>>>
>>>>>Adam
>>>>
>>>>Hi Adam
>>>>
>>>>The trick that I use is the hot air welding gun itself. It's
>>>>temperature is automatically controlled and it is having a digital
>>>>display showing the temperature which also can be used to set the
>>>>temperature requested. It then takes the gun probably 10 seconds or
>>>>so to reach a new temeparature level and it then stays there. This
>>>>really helps a lot in getting consistent good results.
>>>>
>>>>Markus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>>>---------------------~-->
>>>>Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
>>>>Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
>>>>Canada.
>>>>http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
>>>>http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/bGYolB/TM
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>~->
>>>>
>>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Simon Whitehead
>>>s.whitehead@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

> On the web page of Steinel I posted you also can see the accessories
> available. I use the "Reduction nozzle, 9 mm" to bend the material and
> the "Welding nozzle" for the real welding operation. Works quite
> nicely.
>
> Markus
>
>
>>A friend of mine has got one of those Steinel LCD guns, I
>>should of tried it before spending my money on that old and
>>used Leister hot air welder. The air pressure from a hot air
>>welder is a lot higher than a heat gun, so I'm not sure how
>>well it will work, but if you had successfully built your
>>tanks from it then I cannot see any major problem with using
>>a general purpose hot air gun. All the reducing nozzles for
>>hot air guns also have a side vent that can get annoying.
>>The side vent is probably there to prevent too much
>>restriction of air flow.
>>
>>Adam
>>
>>Markus Zingg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Seinel Modell HL2305 LCD
>>>
>>>I really can highly recomend this one. It's not even that expensive.
>>>
>>>http://www.steinel.de/englisch/index.html
>>>
>>>there click on "Products for DIY ers" then on "Hot Air Guns" it's the
>>>first one on the left.
>>>
>>>Markus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Markus,
>>>>
>>>>Which hot air gun do you use?
>>>>
>>>>Simon
>>>>
>>>>On 5 Nov 2003, at 07:40, markuszingg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
>>>>><adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>This weekend I played around with my hot air welder again, trying
>>>>>>to get better practice. I bought three types or welding rod, and
>>>>>>small and large triangle type and a 3 mm round, each type comes
>>>>>>in 50 rods per pack. I found triangle is the best. For 4.5mm
>>>>>>sheet I use the larger triangle, for 3 mm sheet I use the small
>>>>>>triangle rods. Practice on lots of scrap pieces and then try and
>>>>>>break the weld when cooled. A *really* good weld will not break
>>>>>>at the weld, but rather the sheet its self will break. The trick
>>>>>>is to get the right temperature setting and nozzle distance from
>>>>>>the work piece. There is a fine line between burning the plastic
>>>>>>and not heating it enough to properly fuse. If the temperature is
>>>>>>too low then it takes too long to melt the plastic and so too
>>>>>>much heat transfers to the bulk of the material, which makes
>>>>>>everything deform and then you cannot push hard of the rod. If
>>>>>>the heat is too hot then it very easy to burns the plastic which
>>>>>>contaminates it with carbon and produces a weak weld.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Adam
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Adam
>>>>>
>>>>>The trick that I use is the hot air welding gun itself. It's
>>>>>temperature is automatically controlled and it is having a digital
>>>>>display showing the temperature which also can be used to set the
>>>>>temperature requested. It then takes the gun probably 10 seconds or
>>>>>so to reach a new temeparature level and it then stays there. This
>>>>>really helps a lot in getting consistent good results.
>>>>>
>>>>>Markus
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>>>>---------------------~-->
>>>>>Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
>>>>>Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
>>>>>Canada.
>>>>>http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
>>>>>http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/bGYolB/TM
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>~->
>>>>>
>>>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>>>
>>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Simon Whitehead
>>>>s.whitehead@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>I can see the 3 mm sheet being bent that way say upto 300 mm
>in length. I made a plastic bender because I was planing on
>doing larger tanks 450 mm length on 4.5mm thick PVC. You
>seem to have done things quite nicely with what you've got.
>
>What thickness material are you using ?

>Did you have to reinforce all the welding zones with blocks
>of wood before you started welding so that the "hobby glass"
>sheets didn't bend under the heat ?

>I found that I had to make special wooden frame inserted
>into the tank so that during welding the pressure of the
>welding rod didn't collapse the sheets.

> From your past posts on the "hobby glass" I get the feeling
>this is ridged clear pvc sheeting. Try burning some and see
>how it compares to flame color/smoke smell to some real PVC.
>PVC is very difficult to get burning by its self and
>produces a harsh smelling smoke, (HCl fumes).

>I can see the 3 mm sheet being bent that way say upto 300 mm
>in length. I made a plastic bender because I was planing on
>doing larger tanks 450 mm length on 4.5mm thick PVC. You
>seem to have done things quite nicely with what you've got.
>
>What thickness material are you using ?

>Did you have to reinforce all the welding zones with blocks
>of wood before you started welding so that the "hobby glass"
>sheets didn't bend under the heat ?

>I found that I had to make special wooden frame inserted
>into the tank so that during welding the pressure of the
>welding rod didn't collapse the sheets.

> From your past posts on the "hobby glass" I get the feeling
>this is ridged clear pvc sheeting. Try burning some and see
>how it compares to flame color/smoke smell to some real PVC.
>PVC is very difficult to get burning by its self and
>produces a harsh smelling smoke, (HCl fumes).

> A friend of mine has got one of those Steinel LCD guns, I should of tried
> it before spending my money on that old and used Leister hot air welder.
> The air pressure from a hot air welder is a lot higher than a heat gun,
> so I'm not sure how well it will work, but if you had successfully built
> your tanks from it then I cannot see any major problem with using a
> general purpose hot air gun. All the reducing nozzles for hot air guns
> also have a side vent that can get annoying. The side vent is probably
> there to prevent too much restriction of air flow.
>
> Adam
>

> Hi Adam
>
>
>>I can see the 3 mm sheet being bent that way say upto 300 mm
>>in length. I made a plastic bender because I was planing on
>>doing larger tanks 450 mm length on 4.5mm thick PVC. You
>>seem to have done things quite nicely with what you've got.
>>
>>What thickness material are you using ?
>
>
> 2mm and 4mm.
>
>
>>Did you have to reinforce all the welding zones with blocks
>>of wood before you started welding so that the "hobby glass"
>>sheets didn't bend under the heat ?
>
>
> They too bend under heat. What I did was first (using the 9mm reducion
> nozzle) bend a long sheet (25x65cm) to a 'U' shape. I did this by
> first bending one side, placing the sheet on a table into a 90degree
> angle and let it cool out, then bend the second side. I thereafter
> palced a thick wood block on the table as a base (in order to prevent
> burning the table) and also created a little peace of wood that fit's
> into the 'U' measuring ~4.5cm x 3cm using 5mm think wood. I then could
> put the 'U' onto the side part (9x30cm) and place the wood into the
> 'U' to prevent it from loosing shape. I then used one hand to hold the
> 'U' down and also feed the plastic into the welder (of course this
> time unsing the welding nozzle) and the other to hold the hot air gun.
> It takes some practice but onece you figured it out it works not that
> bad. You somehow miss a third hand :))
>
>
>>I found that I had to make special wooden frame inserted
>>into the tank so that during welding the pressure of the
>>welding rod didn't collapse the sheets.
>
>
> See above, you probably did the same thing then.
>
>
>>From your past posts on the "hobby glass" I get the feeling
>>this is ridged clear pvc sheeting. Try burning some and see
>>how it compares to flame color/smoke smell to some real PVC.
>>PVC is very difficult to get burning by its self and
>>produces a harsh smelling smoke, (HCl fumes).
>
>
> I'm currently not at home, so can't try this right away. I happen to
> know how PVC smells when burning. Some 22 years ago I happend to learn
> tool maker as my first profession where we were building molds to
> fabricate plastic parts. I have a collection of the diverse plastic
> base materials somewhere. Have to grab that out and compare the
> flames/fumes of them with the glass I'm using.
>
> Markus
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>Thanks for the descriptions. What are the internal
>dimensions of the tanks.

>From your web pages I can see 4
>smaller ones and one larger one for the copper
>electroplating. From your pictures the tanks look like they
>were made from 3 mm sheet.

>Did you consider putting an outer
>lip on the tops of the tanks ?

>I found that using lots of spring clamps are VERY helpful
>when welding. I clamp a large piece of chipboard to the
>bench so it hung out about 40 cm, I then could do all my
>work on this board and easily clamp things from underneath
>using sliding G clamps.

>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> Hi Adam
>>
>>
>>>I can see the 3 mm sheet being bent that way say upto 300 mm
>>>in length. I made a plastic bender because I was planing on
>>>doing larger tanks 450 mm length on 4.5mm thick PVC. You
>>>seem to have done things quite nicely with what you've got.
>>>
>>>What thickness material are you using ?
>>
>>
>> 2mm and 4mm.
>>
>>
>>>Did you have to reinforce all the welding zones with blocks
>>>of wood before you started welding so that the "hobby glass"
>>>sheets didn't bend under the heat ?
>>
>>
>> They too bend under heat. What I did was first (using the 9mm reducion
>> nozzle) bend a long sheet (25x65cm) to a 'U' shape. I did this by
>> first bending one side, placing the sheet on a table into a 90degree
>> angle and let it cool out, then bend the second side. I thereafter
>> palced a thick wood block on the table as a base (in order to prevent
>> burning the table) and also created a little peace of wood that fit's
>> into the 'U' measuring ~4.5cm x 3cm using 5mm think wood. I then could
>> put the 'U' onto the side part (9x30cm) and place the wood into the
>> 'U' to prevent it from loosing shape. I then used one hand to hold the
>> 'U' down and also feed the plastic into the welder (of course this
>> time unsing the welding nozzle) and the other to hold the hot air gun.
>> It takes some practice but onece you figured it out it works not that
>> bad. You somehow miss a third hand :))
>>
>>
>>>I found that I had to make special wooden frame inserted
>>>into the tank so that during welding the pressure of the
>>>welding rod didn't collapse the sheets.
>>
>>
>> See above, you probably did the same thing then.
>>
>>
>>>From your past posts on the "hobby glass" I get the feeling
>>>this is ridged clear pvc sheeting. Try burning some and see
>>>how it compares to flame color/smoke smell to some real PVC.
>>>PVC is very difficult to get burning by its self and
>>>produces a harsh smelling smoke, (HCl fumes).
>>
>>
>> I'm currently not at home, so can't try this right away. I happen to
>> know how PVC smells when burning. Some 22 years ago I happend to learn
>> tool maker as my first profession where we were building molds to
>> fabricate plastic parts. I have a collection of the diverse plastic
>> base materials somewhere. Have to grab that out and compare the
>> flames/fumes of them with the glass I'm using.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

> Hi Adam
>
> Sorry for the late reply - terribly busy times here.

>
>
>>Thanks for the descriptions. What are the internal
>>dimensions of the tanks.
>
>
> They are made to contain 2 and 4.5 liters respectively with a certain
> "security" zone so as I don't have to fill them completely up. The
> dimensions are therefore 4x25x29 cm with side pannels sized 9x30. The
> bigger tank is identical except that it's 9 cm wide. All these
> measures are internal dimesions.
>

>

> like a good idea.

>
> Hmmm, I unfortunately don't understand english good enough to know
> what you mean. If you could make a picuture of that process I'm sure
> it would become much clearer.