Homebrew PCBs

Ok I have enough of "score and snap" method (utility knife, glass 
cutter, the best was the pen with carbite tip but still required too 
much work) and the paper shear I have access to won't even begin to cut 
the PCB material I have. So I followed the suggestion found on a old 
thread, to get a 4" saw blade as I have found this one on sale at HF:

http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-tile-saw-with-wet-tray-3733.html

Now, Baxter some time ago suggested this saw blade:

http://www.lopacki.com/sawblades/#f

I just wanted to check it's the first one, "Fine Cut Diamond Saw Blade" 
for 8 dollars. On the same page there is also a "Coarse Cut Diamond Saw 
Blade" and a "Ultra thin" one

Thank you

bye!
as

Alessio,

I have the QEP 4" diamond saw. It came with a blade that looks to be about 1.4 mm thick. This is ok for tile, but a bit thick for PCB work. I intend to order the fine cut blade. The Lopacki site offers these at a great price, but shipping is $6.

Baxter

On 09/01/2010 06:08 PM, bebx2000 wrote:
>
>
> Alessio,
>
> I have the QEP 4" diamond saw. It came with a blade that looks to be
> about 1.4 mm thick. This is ok for tile, but a bit thick for PCB
> work. I intend to order the fine cut blade. The Lopacki site offers
> these at a great price, but shipping is $6.

Thanks! I will order mine also. Are you in US? I could buy two
and send you the second one by regular mail to save on shipping costs.

In any case I will send them an email because they claim that:

"PLEASE NOTE:  Prices below are approximate, we charge actual shipping 
cost on all orders, there is no handling charge. If you need actual cost 
prior to ordering please call or email."

bye
as

Are there any problems running the diamond saw dry?
I am thinking about cutting apart finished assembled SMT boards.
Any vibration problems damaging components?  Especially crystals?
Bertho

On 09/01/2010 06:08 PM, bebx2000 wrote:

> work. I intend to order the fine cut blade. The Lopacki site offers
> these at a great price, but shipping is $6.

The guy responded to my inquiry about shipping costs:

The shipping on a 4" blade 1.50 on a 6" blade 4.90

So it makes sense to just buy it directly :)

bye
as

Is the QEP saw about the same as the HF saw?  One better than other?

With the QEP saw selling for $49 at Home Depot and comes with a 7" diamond blade, that makes them about the same price, AND Home depot is a LOT closer to me.

Thanks for any info.

Ken H.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "bebx2000" <bebx2000@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> Alessio,
> 
> I have the QEP 4" diamond saw. It came with a blade that looks to be about 1.4 mm thick. This is ok for tile, but a bit thick for PCB work. I intend to order the fine cut blade. The Lopacki site offers these at a great price, but shipping is $6.
> 
> Baxter
>

I bought my 4" QEP saw at Lowes about 6mo. ago. The price was $54 and I had a coupon for $10 off on a $50 or greater purchase. The Harbor Freight model looks the same. They both have the angle cutting jig. My saw has very little vibration and runs at 3600 rpm (1.5 amp, made in Taiwan). The arbor is attached directly to the motor shaft. These saws are not industrial grade. Reviewers would bitch about the motor going sour after trying to cut a whole housefull of tile. They will last forever cutting FR-4.

My last use of the saw was dry. The cuts seemed the same as wet, but with plenty of fine white powder inside the tank. After the first cut, I put on a dust mask. I think it is better to use the saw wet to keep fiberglass dust out of the motor bearings.

As the saying goes, "ask and ye shall receive". This thread reminded me to order the thin blade. I did and my invoice says $6 shippng, not $1.50.

Baxter

Thank you for such a detailed report - I am using a shear type paper cutter now for FR4 which works pretty good for .032", but .062" is harder.  I've been thinking about one of those diamond saws.

Thank you again,

Ken H>

>> Are there any problems running the diamond saw dry?
>> I am thinking about cutting apart finished assembled SMT boards.
>> Any vibration problems damaging components? Especially crystals?
>> Bertho

The reason the saw is used with water is to stop the diamodiferous grit on the rim from being detached when hot. The grit is pressed into the blade rim (usually aluminum alloy), heating causes the grit to un-bond from the rim. Secondly, the water clears away the accumulated swarf giving a faster cut. For all intents and purposes, keep it wet to save the blade. Unless the board is being assembled by a manufacturer, why not cut the board before populating it? This will alleviate any vibration problems and ingress of water into sensitive components





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Howard for a detailed answer.
The boards are built as an array on a Pick & Place machine and I want to cut
them apart afterwards when building prototypes.
For production they will be either scored or routed with break-off tabs.
Bertho
================================

From: Howard Chester    Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 07:34
  
>> Are there any problems running the diamond saw dry?
>> I am thinking about cutting apart finished assembled SMT boards.
>> Any vibration problems damaging components? Especially crystals?
>> Bertho

The reason the saw is used with water is to stop the diamodiferous grit on
the rim from being detached when hot. The grit is pressed into the blade rim
(usually aluminum alloy), heating causes the grit to un-bond from the rim.
Secondly, the water clears away the accumulated swarf giving a faster cut.
For all intents and purposes, keep it wet to save the blade. Unless the
board is being assembled by a manufacturer, why not cut the board before
populating it? This will alleviate any vibration problems and ingress of
water into sensitive components

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33" <boman33@...> wrote:
>
> Are there any problems running the diamond saw dry?
> I am thinking about cutting apart finished assembled SMT boards.
> Any vibration problems damaging components?  Especially crystals?
> Bertho
>

Dust.

Will it damage your components? Dunno, but I would think not unless it somehow causes a chip not to connect properly in a socket (e.g., if you pulled a chip and reinserted it, the dust might cause a poor connection).

On the other hand, I am fairly confident it WILL damage your lungs. Wear a dust mask!

>> Thanks Howard for a detailed answer.

>> The boards are built as an array on a Pick & Place machine and I want to cut

>> them apart afterwards when building prototypes.

>> For production they will be either scored or routed with break-off tabs.

>> Bertho

Not a problem.I work with Diamond cutting and drilling products on an industrial scale - I'm a electro mech fitter in controlled Demolition as my day job. (cuts of 2meters and 750mm dia holes in reinforced concrete) ! These machines and drills must be fully re-tested both mech & Elect even if they are only used for an hour. If you have to cut dry, allow the blade to cool for a minute between cuts. As other members have suggested, wearing a paper filter type mask is a must and wearing a good set of safety glasses a definite,   chester



      

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Thanks Chester,
That sounds like a neat job:  Getting a chance to blow things up and get paid for it☺
Have a great weekend,
Bertho
=====================================

From: Howard Chester   Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 22:09
  
>> Thanks Howard for a detailed answer.

>> The boards are built as an array on a Pick & Place machine and I want to cut

>> them apart afterwards when building prototypes.

>> For production they will be either scored or routed with break-off tabs.

>> Bertho
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a problem.  I work with Diamond cutting and drilling products on an industrial scale - I'm a electro mech fitter in controlled Demolition as my day job. (cuts of 2meters and 750mm dia holes in reinforced concrete) ! These machines and drills must be fully re-tested both mech & Elect even if they are only used for an hour. If you have to cut dry, allow the blade to cool for a minute between cuts. As other members have suggested, wearing a paper filter type mask is a must and wearing a good set of safety glasses a definite,   chester

> Now, Baxter some time ago suggested this saw blade:
> 
> http://www.lopacki.com/sawblades/#f
> 

I tried my new 8 mil Diamond saw blade (dry) and it makes perfect, fine cuts in  FR-4 with virtully no dust. It is much better than the thicker tile blade supplied with the saw. Also, I was only charged $1.50 for shipping even though the standard shipping at checkout was shown as $6. It is nice to find an online retailer who doesn't ripoff on the shipping.

Baxter

On 09/04/2010 05:23 PM, bebx2000 wrote:

> I tried my new 8 mil Diamond saw blade (dry) and it makes perfect,
> fine cuts in  FR-4 with virtully no dust. It is much better than the
> thicker tile blade supplied with the saw. Also, I was only charged
> $1.50 for shipping even though the standard shipping at checkout was
> shown as $6. It is nice to find an online retailer who doesn't ripoff
> on the shipping.

I told you :)

I am placing the order now.

I have an off-topic question: do you think that blade can cut books? I 
would be interested in cutting away the edge of several books so that I 
can scan them with an auto-feed scanner.

bye!
as

> 
> I have an off-topic question: do you think that blade can cut books? I 
> would be interested in cutting away the edge of several books so that I 
> can scan them with an auto-feed scanner.
> 
> bye!
> as
>

perhaps... However, I think diamond cutting works best on harder materials.

Baxter

I would try going to a local printer who might have a paper shear. I think they could get excelent results for only a few dollars, and the results might allow them to be fed with your paper feed.

These shears are quickly set up by compressing the paper stack in a clamping mechanism and then shearing them with a razor sharp cutting blade. 

Good luck! 

-----Original Message-----
From: bebx2000 <bebx2000@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 8, 2010 11:54 pm
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw


  
    
                  


> 
> I have an off-topic question: do you think that blade can cut books? I 
> would be interested in cutting away the edge of several books so that I 
> can scan them with an auto-feed scanner.
> 
> bye!
> as
>

perhaps... However, I think diamond cutting works best on harder materials.

Baxter


    
             

  
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Na 9.9.2010 9:26, rrrydman@... je pisal:
>   I would try going to a local printer who might have a paper shear. I think they could get excelent results for only a few dollars, and the results might allow them to be fed with your paper feed.
>
> These shears are quickly set up by compressing the paper stack in a clamping mechanism and then shearing them with a razor sharp cutting blade.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>

Paper shear works very nice for few cuts. FR4 laminate is glass epoxy 
and that stuff make cutting blade dull very quick.

On 09/09/2010 12:53 AM, Slavko Kocjancic wrote:

> Paper shear works very nice for few cuts. FR4 laminate is glass epoxy
> and that stuff make cutting blade dull very quick.

In this case I wanted to cut a book

bye
as

Commercial paper shears are an entirely different animal. These typically are large machines for commercial book binding. The have multi ton presses to shear volumes of posters, book pages, and catalogues. The will have no difficulty shear the binding off a book. They will leave a clean edge. They are quickly set up by clamping the book or stack of paper to the cutting bed, then a large razor sharp blade is brought down with tremendous force using a hydraulic pressure or a mechanical leverage system. I have used these to cut stacks of boxes at a previous employment. 
I would not expect a print house, publishing firm , to charge more than a few dollars to do this, although scheduling might take a day or two. Maybe not just go in and do it on the spot, but leave for a day or two. Ask around at commercial print houses. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:53 am
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw


  
    
                  
  Na 9.9.2010 9:26, rrrydman@... je pisal:
>   I would try going to a local printer who might have a paper shear. I think they could get excelent results for only a few dollars, and the results might allow them to be fed with your paper feed.
>
> These shears are quickly set up by compressing the paper stack in a clamping mechanism and then shearing them with a razor sharp cutting blade.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>

Paper shear works very nice for few cuts. FR4 laminate is glass epoxy 
and that stuff make cutting blade dull very quick.

    
             

  
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Find a sheetmetal shop they usually have a jump shear that can cut 1/4 inch thick aluminum..A metal shear blade has a different cutting angle
that is more obtuse than a paper shear.Cutting copper clad on a paper shear can nick the blade and the paper or books that they produce will no
longer have a clean edge and make the book binder a very unhappy person..
I used to have a access to a jump shear at work untill they dismantled our machine shop..My uncle had a paper shear and the blade on that was like a sharp knife..a sheet metal shop is your best bet and they will probable let you use it for free.(just watch your fingers when you use it!).They may even have a small version you can cut them on..

--- On Thu, 9/9/10, rrrydman@... <rrrydman@...> wrote:

> From: rrrydman@... <rrrydman@...>
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, September 9, 2010, 1:22 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       
> 
>  Commercial paper shears are an entirely different animal.
> These typically are large machines for commercial book
> binding. The have multi ton presses to shear volumes of
> posters, book pages, and catalogues. The will have no
> difficulty shear the binding off a book. They will leave a
> clean edge. They are quickly set up by clamping the book or
> stack of paper to the cutting bed, then a large razor sharp
> blade is brought down with tremendous force using a
> hydraulic pressure or a mechanical leverage system. I have
> used these to cut stacks of boxes at a previous employment.
> 
> 
> I would not expect a print house, publishing firm , to
> charge more than a few dollars to do this, although
> scheduling might take a day or two. Maybe not just go in and
> do it on the spot, but leave for a day or two. Ask around at
> commercial print houses. 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...>
> 
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:53 am
> 
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw
> 
> 
> 
> Na 9.9.2010 9:26, rrrydman@...m
> je pisal:
> 
> >   I would try going to a local printer who might have
> a paper shear. I think they could get excelent results for
> only a few dollars, and the results might allow them to be
> fed with your paper feed.
> 
> >
> 
> > These shears are quickly set up by compressing the
> paper stack in a clamping mechanism and then shearing them
> with a razor sharp cutting blade.
> 
> >
> 
> > Good luck!
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Paper shear works very nice for few cuts. FR4 laminate is
> glass epoxy 
> 
> and that stuff make cutting blade dull very quick.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>      
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

My suggestions for a print house paper shear are intended to pertain to the person requesting how to shear a book suitable for a paper feeder on a scanning machine ... I do not think a publishing house will be willing to shear FRP.

-----Original Message-----
From: michael tenore <wb2lcw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw


  
    
                  
Find a sheetmetal shop they usually have a jump shear that can cut 1/4 inch thick aluminum..A metal shear blade has a different cutting angle
that is more obtuse than a paper shear.Cutting copper clad on a paper shear can nick the blade and the paper or books that they produce will no
longer have a clean edge and make the book binder a very unhappy person..
I used to have a access to a jump shear at work untill they dismantled our machine shop..My uncle had a paper shear and the blade on that was like a sharp knife..a sheet metal shop is your best bet and they will probable let you use it for free.(just watch your fingers when you use it!).They may even have a small version you can cut them on..

--- On Thu, 9/9/10, rrrydman@... <rrrydman@...> wrote:

> From: rrrydman@... <rrrydman@...>
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, September 9, 2010, 1:22 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       
> 
>  Commercial paper shears are an entirely different animal.
> These typically are large machines for commercial book
> binding. The have multi ton presses to shear volumes of
> posters, book pages, and catalogues. The will have no
> difficulty shear the binding off a book. They will leave a
> clean edge. They are quickly set up by clamping the book or
> stack of paper to the cutting bed, then a large razor sharp
> blade is brought down with tremendous force using a
> hydraulic pressure or a mechanical leverage system. I have
> used these to cut stacks of boxes at a previous employment.
> 
> 
> I would not expect a print house, publishing firm , to
> charge more than a few dollars to do this, although
> scheduling might take a day or two. Maybe not just go in and
> do it on the spot, but leave for a day or two. Ask around at
> commercial print houses. 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...>
> 
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:53 am
> 
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Diamond saw
> 
> 
> 
> Na 9.9.2010 9:26, rrrydman@...
> je pisal:
> 
> >   I would try going to a local printer who might have
> a paper shear. I think they could get excelent results for
> only a few dollars, and the results might allow them to be
> fed with your paper feed.
> 
> >
> 
> > These shears are quickly set up by compressing the
> paper stack in a clamping mechanism and then shearing them
> with a razor sharp cutting blade.
> 
> >
> 
> > Good luck!
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Paper shear works very nice for few cuts. FR4 laminate is
> glass epoxy 
> 
> and that stuff make cutting blade dull very quick.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>      
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


    
             

  
 


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