Homebrew PCBs

Hi Guys,

I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.

I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....

and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.

I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............

Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?

Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.

Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?

Best, Charlie

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:55:46 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi Guys,
>
>I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
>
>I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....

I have methods that are very reliable for 16 mil boards, decent for 12
mill boards, and occasionally chancy for 10 mil boards and 0.5 mm
chips.


>
>and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.

Then you're doing something fundamentally wrong.
>
>I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
>
>Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
>

Pulsar blue paper, toner transfer, CuCl etchant (ferric chloride
works).  Single or double sided boards.


>Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.

Firstly, where are you located (roughly).  That may help for some
hands on.

Secondly, the cleanliness of the board is critical, I use bon-ami
scouring powder (chemical and abrasive), sand with 1000 or 1200 grit
wet or dry, and then rinse with acetone.  Wear gloves.

Laser printer on Pulsar paper, avoid brother because of toner
temperature problems, older printer is better because you can set the
print density to maximum.

Print on paper first, tape pulsar paper (sized) to paper, run through
once.

Laminate.  Experience needed to get it right, typically four to 8
passes through laminator at laminator's maximum temperature.  Go
directly from laminator to room temperature water to soak paper.  Hold
paper onto board with laser label strip.  Also use same strip to hold
pulsar paper on 8 1/2 by 11 backing.

Green foil helps.  cut smaller than board, smooth on, run through at
least twice, allow to cool, pull off.  Transparent parts should be
absolutely clear.  Foil left on board should be shiny.

Fix bits of board not quite covered with sharpie marker or the
equivalent.

Etch in solution of your choice.  I suspend by wire, do not allow
boards to bang on each other, it can damage the surface.

Clean with solvent after rinsing, tin plate if desired.

Works for me.

Harvey


>
>Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?

I'd never bet my life on something like that, but it *did* take a bit
of experimenting to get the hang of the process variables.

H.

>
>Best, Charlie
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On 29/08/2010 13:55, gandolfreefer wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
>
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
>
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
>
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
>
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
>
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
>
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?


I get perfect results every time with photo-etch using positive resist 
pre-coated boards, down to 8/8 mil. I use a cheap HP DeskJet printer and 
Mega Electronics Premium film  for transparencies, and a home-made UV 
exposure unit, developing in NaOH. Etching is in hot FeCl3 with 
continuous agitation. A board takes me under 30 minutes to make. I've 
been making my own PCBs for over 40 years by a variety of methods, very 
successfully. I've never had any problems, apart from when I've used old 
board stock with my present method, and the resist has deteriorated.

I've never been able to get toner-transfer to work properly, though.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Well, I'm not sure how to put this to you, but most of them actually
work just fine.

First you should define what quality of boards you require, then we
can suggest which methods are suitable.
Please specifiy minimum trace width/spacing requirements, number of
layers, PTH or not plated, requirements for dimensional accuracy, and
whatever else you can think of.

I'm pretty sure we can help you get pretty much any method to work as
long as you are patient enough.

ST


On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 2:55 PM, gandolfreefer
<synchronousmosfet@...> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
>
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
>
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
>
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
>
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
>
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
>
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?
>
> Best, Charlie
>
>

I've been working on videos, which spell it all out.

I use the mechanical etch,through hole plate, dry film solder mask method.  I'm doing 8 mil traces with 6 mil clearances pretty consistently.  If I work hard I can get the clearnaces down to 4 mil, 
but thats an exception.

I'm working to document everything here.

http://www.voodooengineering.com

Its a work in progress but I try to add a page every week.

But also in the end, it would have been cheaper for me to outsource all my boards to China.  I can make them faster -- normally in one day and that would be expensive to outsource.  But the cost, with the copper board, mill, bits, chemicals, dry film, copper plate, time -- there isn't any cost savings if you could wait 3-4 weeks for the shipment from china.  I do get some fun and enjoyment out of making my own, so there's that factor.

bt

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gandolfreefer" <synchronousmosfet@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
> 
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
> 
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
> 
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
> 
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
> 
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
> 
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?
> 
> Best, Charlie
>

First I an not new to DIY PCB making. But I am relatively new the with the 
TT process.

About 10 years ago I bought 2 packages of TT paper. Pre PULSAR. Two years 
ago I tried some boards with it and did manage to make 5 useable PCBs.

Last month I bought the Personal laminator from Pulsar. It has the two heat 
ranges. I tried the instructions on the PULSAR website. But with only two 
passes through the laminator I was not getting 100% good transfers. So I 
tried 4 passes. I did get good transfers with 4 passes. So now I am using 
eight passes.

I used the DATAK tin plating solution I got pretty nice looking boards.

But drilling the boards was a problem. I have an original Dremel drill 
press. I also have carbide PCB drills. But I am 76 and my depth perception 
is in the tank. Even with that I did make two useable boards this past week.

My problem now is installing surface mount components. I may go back to 
through hole technology.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "gandolfreefer" <synchronousmosfet@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:55 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] oldie but newbie mystery of the universe


> Hi Guys,
>
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this 
> group a while back.
>
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular 
> method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, 
> photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software 
> programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of 
> etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the 
> water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after 
> etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
>
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, 
> I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, 
> no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
>
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and 
> be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last 
> try............
>
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them 
> still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the 
> moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air 
> off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, 
> etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
>
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, 
> by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the 
> sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I 
> can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
>
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your 
> life on?
>
> Best, Charlie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:36:28 -0700, you wrote:

>First I an not new to DIY PCB making. But I am relatively new the with the 
>TT process.
>
>About 10 years ago I bought 2 packages of TT paper. Pre PULSAR. Two years 
>ago I tried some boards with it and did manage to make 5 useable PCBs.
>
>Last month I bought the Personal laminator from Pulsar. It has the two heat 
>ranges. I tried the instructions on the PULSAR website. But with only two 
>passes through the laminator I was not getting 100% good transfers. So I 
>tried 4 passes. I did get good transfers with 4 passes. So now I am using 
>eight passes.
>
>I used the DATAK tin plating solution I got pretty nice looking boards.
>
>But drilling the boards was a problem. I have an original Dremel drill 
>press. I also have carbide PCB drills. But I am 76 and my depth perception 
>is in the tank. Even with that I did make two useable boards this past week.

If you have the capability, then arrange the drill press so that it
works by moving the drill up into the board.  Put a cheap closed
circuit TV camera with a magnifying lens over the PC board drill
center.  Use a piece of plastic, or tape, or red lines to make the
cross hairs for the camera.  

8 passes works for me, thank you.

Three or four passes works with the film.  I found that laying it
flat, burnishing it a little to make it stick, then four passes works.
I do not fold over the edge.


>
>My problem now is installing surface mount components. I may go back to 
>through hole technology.

See if you can find a used binocular microscope, you would want one
with about 10x to 15x maximum, rig up a decent light, and you want it
to focus with the lens about 3 to 4 inches above the board.

Harvey

That same camera would work for half of the microscope, but no depth
perception.

H.

>
>Bob Macklin
>K5MYJ
>Seattle, Wa.
>"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "gandolfreefer" <synchronousmosfet@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:55 AM
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] oldie but newbie mystery of the universe
>
>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this 
>> group a while back.
>>
>> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular 
>> method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, 
>> photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software 
>> programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of 
>> etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the 
>> water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after 
>> etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
>>
>> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, 
>> I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, 
>> no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
>>
>> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and 
>> be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last 
>> try............
>>
>> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them 
>> still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the 
>> moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air 
>> off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, 
>> etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
>>
>> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, 
>> by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the 
>> sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I 
>> can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
>>
>> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your 
>> life on?
>>
>> Best, Charlie
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
>> Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hello...

I make PCB boards for myself and had NO bad board's few year! (and make 
aprox one board per week)
The board's are single sided (I abandon homemade double sided- to much 
problems) and near all have at least some SMD's with 0.85mm pad raster. 
0.5mm woork's too.
There is procedure.

I print artwork to the advertising paper (stuf I got to the mailbox) 
Near all work nice. The problem with bad one is that pelling is hard to do.
Here is the 1'st catch. Printing with HP laserjet 1020/1019 just works 
nice. Printing with Brother 2030 give me bad unusable boards.

1. I clean my board with green kitchen pads. I make few round cutout's 
and stack it onto one bolt. So all the thing I put into drill machine 
and set to 600rpm speed. Then just touching this rotating 'cleaner' I 
clean board mechanicaly without any solvents. I do cleaning aprox one 
minute for 10x10 cm board.

2. I put paper with printed image onto board and put 6 times trought 
laminator modified to the aprox 180 degres celsius. I't work's just one 
pass with laminator temperature set on 200 degres C but lifetime of 
laminator is then on question. So I use 6 pass and 180 deg C. The 
laminator one is cheap chinesse type.

3. After lamination I put board imideatly under warm/hot watter. (aprox 
60 deg/C) and leave aprox one minute. After that I peel paper out. I try 
in every edge as seems that pelling from 'right' angle can be done 
without residue of paper. (I don't know why but it's probably some fibre 
orientation matter.) If some residue stay on board it came down with 
just little finger scrubbing. After that I leave board to dry.

4. I make correction on board with DALLO pen (it's for PCB repairing) 
but near all other permanent pen's works. The only area where the 
corrections are needed is big polygons. Inside this big areas are some 
pits and I repair that. The thin traces in my case are newer need repair.

5. I etch with solution of HCL(muratic acid?), H2O2(hydrogen peroxide) 
and water. The etcing time 1-2 minutes.

6, I clean board mechanicaly (by hand) rubbing with metal kitchen pads. 
I need les than minute to clean 10x10cm board. I do rubbing under cold 
tap water.

7. I had dissolved colophonium in metilated alcohol and protect my board 
with that.  that's all.

Slavko



gandolfreefer pravi:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
>
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
>
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
>
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
>
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
>
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
>
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?
>
> Best, Charlie
>
>

HI Charlie,

I too have been at it for about 3 years.  I cannot say with any certainty that any method is perfect.  I like toner transfer and I like the photo process.  Neither system has been perfect for me but both work well enough for my prototypes and misc. boards I create.

The photo process is certainly the most repeatable for me as long as I buy pre-coated boards - forget the dry film for reliability.

Toner transfer for me has been hit or miss. I am still not sure of the "Magic" combination that always works perfectly.  I know the paper type is critical but mfgs keep changing everything so you never know what you get.  Cleaning the boards is important but I have had perfect results by not cleaning them at all.  I suspect ambient temp and humidity might play a bigger role than anything with this process.

Some folks have great luck with magazine paper, I had horrid results because the ink on the page also transferred.  Some folks had great luck with a certain paper from Staples, I had really bad results.  Some swear by the iron, others swear by the laminator. I use both to get the best results. 

Some folks here have perfect results everytime with their process (TT or Photo) and others fight it over and over again.  I guess it all comes down to how cheap are you?

If you want a very good board the first time around and don't mind waiting a while for it, have a service make it for you.

If you don't mind trying and trying and trying and saving a few bucks, keep messing around with the process to see what works for you.  At some point you should stumble onto the magic combination.

All around I suspect there is some "Black magic" involved and finding it is different for each person.  The one thing I do know, no matter which process you use - have a Sharpie pen handy and inspect your boards BEFORE etching - it saves time.

Chris





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gandolfreefer" <synchronousmosfet@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
> 
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
> 
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
> 
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
> 
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
> 
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
> 
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?
> 
> Best, Charlie
>

I use their lightest weight glossy paper and have had great success with
it.  It's VERY close to a thin magazine paper

> Some folks had great luck with a certain paper from Staples, I had really
bad results.


-- 
Paul Mateer, AA9GG
Elan Engineering Corp.
www.elanengr.com
NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 08/30/2010 06:41 PM, Chris wrote:
> forget the dry film for reliability.

I've figured out how to laminate the dry film with nearly 100% success. 
  I have two ways - wet or dry.

Wet
---

Similar to Adam's method, I put the film stick-side up on a plastic 
sheet, rinse, and flip the sheet over onto the PCB.  This lets me 
squeegie out the water without actually touching the film (the plastic 
sheet protects it).  Once most of the water is squeegied out, I run it 
through the laminator set to 200 F (96 C) - below the boiling point of 
water, so no steam bubbles.

Dry
---

Get a clean sheet of paper a bit bigger than the PCB, plus a few inches 
more sticking out the top (the edge that goes into the laminator first). 
  Put the PCB on it.  Cut some film as wide as the PCB and 1-2 inches 
longer. Tape the leading edge of the film down (stick-side towards 
paper) just ahead of the PCB.  Cut two 2" long strips of paper, tape one 
to each trailing corner has handles.

Put the assembly on the feed side of the laminator set to 240 F and get 
it started.  Once the paper is grabbed, pick up the paper handles and 
lift the film off the pcb, pulling gently back and apart.  This makes 
sure the film first touches the pcb at the roller, so no air can be 
trapped.  The handles also let you put tension on the film right up to 
the moment it goes through the rollers.

(hmmm, I wonder if I can just put the board through upside-down so 
gravity keeps the film off for me)


In both cases, for double sided I just repeat on the other side.

The Dry method doesn't work on aluminum foil (for solder paste 
stencils), but I've yet to try the wet method with it.  The foil itself 
wrinkles on its way through the laminator, hopefully the wet-stuck film 
will help keep it straight.  Maybe I'll tape the foil to a carrier too.

You can make good boards, it all depends on the feature size you require.  I have done a few toner transfer with mixed results, my Borther laser printer is not very good for the TT process.  With a very hot iron I can make it work for very simple boards. 

Years back I did lots of double sided boards using Shipley's AZ111 positive photo resist.  In those days before low cost CAD software things were hand taped up with rubylith at 2X, then photo reduced to make working negatives and contact positives.  The blank boards were cleaned, spun coated with the AZ111, baked, exposed in a UV light box,developed and then etched in hot ammonium persulfate. Got nice chrisp lines but traces were limited to about .015" just due to the rubylity hand tape up. 

Craig 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gandolfreefer" <synchronousmosfet@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
> 
> I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
> 
> and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
> 
> I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
> 
> Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
> 
> Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
> 
> Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?
> 
> Best, Charlie
>

Slavko,

Thanks very much for your detailed response.

I am intrigued, and a little surprised, that you use any glossy advertising that just comes in the mail, but, hey, if it works, it works, and I do like the cost...:)

Sounds like you're doing batches, and that you've done quite a few over the last year; by the sounds of it, at least several hundred but it could be in the thousands.

And thanks for the printer rec...seems to me there are two critical parts to this process: the paper, and the printer.

However, the paper seems less of an issue by far than the printer.

This, of course, gives me an idea....for one of you entrepreneurs out there....start a cartridge refill service, where the toner has been specially designed for transfer onto PCB boards!!

Then it wouldn't matter the type of printer, and then I'll bet 99% of the difficulties with the toner transfer would ... go away.

Thanks again,

Best Regards, Charlie

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:

>
> Hello...
> 
> I make PCB boards for myself and had NO bad board's few year! (and make 
> aprox one board per week)
> The board's are single sided (I abandon homemade double sided- to much 
> problems) and near all have at least some SMD's with 0.85mm pad raster. 
> 0.5mm woork's too.
> There is procedure.
> 
> I print artwork to the advertising paper (stuf I got to the mailbox) 
> Near all work nice. The problem with bad one is that pelling is hard to do.
> Here is the 1'st catch. Printing with HP laserjet 1020/1019 just works 
> nice. Printing with Brother 2030 give me bad unusable boards.
> 
> 1. I clean my board with green kitchen pads. I make few round cutout's 
> and stack it onto one bolt. So all the thing I put into drill machine 
> and set to 600rpm speed. Then just touching this rotating 'cleaner' I 
> clean board mechanicaly without any solvents. I do cleaning aprox one 
> minute for 10x10 cm board.
> 
> 2. I put paper with printed image onto board and put 6 times trought 
> laminator modified to the aprox 180 degres celsius. I't work's just one 
> pass with laminator temperature set on 200 degres C but lifetime of 
> laminator is then on question. So I use 6 pass and 180 deg C. The 
> laminator one is cheap chinesse type.
> 
> 3. After lamination I put board imideatly under warm/hot watter. (aprox 
> 60 deg/C) and leave aprox one minute. After that I peel paper out. I try 
> in every edge as seems that pelling from 'right' angle can be done 
> without residue of paper. (I don't know why but it's probably some fibre 
> orientation matter.) If some residue stay on board it came down with 
> just little finger scrubbing. After that I leave board to dry.
> 
> 4. I make correction on board with DALLO pen (it's for PCB repairing) 
> but near all other permanent pen's works. The only area where the 
> corrections are needed is big polygons. Inside this big areas are some 
> pits and I repair that. The thin traces in my case are newer need repair.
> 
> 5. I etch with solution of HCL(muratic acid?), H2O2(hydrogen peroxide) 
> and water. The etcing time 1-2 minutes.
> 
> 6, I clean board mechanicaly (by hand) rubbing with metal kitchen pads. 
> I need les than minute to clean 10x10cm board. I do rubbing under cold 
> tap water.
> 
> 7. I had dissolved colophonium in metilated alcohol and protect my board 
> with that.  that's all.
> 
> Slavko
> 
> 
> 
> gandolfreefer pravi:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > I started trying to make my own PCB's three years ago, and joined this group a while back.
> >
> > I am wondering if any of you feel 100% confident about any particular method. I've tried 'em all - I've got a stack of laminators, chemicals, photo-exposers, rub-on stuff, special papers, twenty $IR#@!! software programs, the fancy bubbler etcher, enough bottles of every type of etchant ever invented to kill half of Philadelphia if I poured them in the water supply, even the fancy stuff that tin-plates the copper after etching, and - oh, yeah - three printers....
> >
> > and I gotta tell ya, at the risk of sounding like a complete incompetent, I cannot for the life of me get a decent quality PCB no matter what I do, no matter what website I go to, no matter who's kit I buy.
> >
> > I'm just about to give up and just order the d*'d things from Sunstone and be done with it, but i thought I'd give this onnnnnnnnnnnnne last try............
> >
> > Is there ONE method for DIY'ing PCB boards that WORKS?? Or are all of them still "tweaky" random-chance methods, depending upon the phase of the moon, the humidity, what type of local mold spores are blowing in the air off the surrounding desert, whether your girlfriend is having her period, etc......for the %(^$#!!! method to actually work?
> >
> > Honestly, I'm a perfectly good DIY'er who has made stuff on lathes, mills, by hand, in metal, wood, plastic, I mean just about everything under the sun, and some of the stuff I've made would knock your eyes out...but I can't seem to get a DIY PCB method I can depend on.
> >
> > Anybody out there with a proven method and equipment that You'd bet your life on?
> >
> > Best, Charlie
> >
> >
>