Homebrew PCBs

Hi. I think I got a good technique to make fairly complicated PCBs, 
double-face, etc. The toner transfer technique allows me to do very thin 
traces, and it's very consistent. I'm really happy; anyway, what is 
really slowing me down at this point is the paper removal. I have to 
inspect the PCB very carefully before etching, as lots of tiny pieces of 
paper remain attached between traces. It is extremely frustrating; what 
do you suggest to do?

bye
as

Alessio,

Are you using magazine (glossy) paper? If that's the case, I think you are
referring to the paper residue left on the board after the board is soaked
in water and roughly cleaned-up.

Actually, I found out that I do not need to clean the board that well at
all. I use warmed up Ferric Chloride and it eats through that white paper
residue during etching. To make sure that happens, with gloves on and the
board immersed in Ferric Chloride, I run my fingers all over the board. That
makes sure that the etchant gets through the paper residue but areas/lines
covered with toner remain fine of course.

Here is the photo of a board I made a few days ago this way.
http://retromaster.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/ufe-a500-kbd-bottom.jpg

I wish I had taken a photo just before etching to show how the board looks
with the white paper residue I am talking about.

Hope this helps,
-Tolga

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 8:02 AM, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi. I think I got a good technique to make fairly complicated PCBs,
> double-face, etc. The toner transfer technique allows me to do very thin
> traces, and it's very consistent. I'm really happy; anyway, what is
> really slowing me down at this point is the paper removal. I have to
> inspect the PCB very carefully before etching, as lots of tiny pieces of
> paper remain attached between traces. It is extremely frustrating; what
> do you suggest to do?
>
> bye
> as
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is a trick to this.

Grab a piece of foam rubber, flexible polyurethane foam. Moisten it
with water and rub the PCB down with it.
The foam rubber will grab the paper really well and remove all of it
reliably. It doesn't damage the toner.

Much better than rubbing your thumb sore.

ST

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
> Hi. I think I got a good technique to make fairly complicated PCBs,
> double-face, etc. The toner transfer technique allows me to do very thin
> traces, and it's very consistent. I'm really happy; anyway, what is
> really slowing me down at this point is the paper removal. I have to
> inspect the PCB very carefully before etching, as lots of tiny pieces of
> paper remain attached between traces. It is extremely frustrating; what
> do you suggest to do?
>
> bye
> as
>
>
>

On 06/12/2010 10:48 PM, Tolga Abaci wrote:

> Are you using magazine (glossy) paper? If that's the case, I think you are

No, I use sheets of photo paper. It is very convenient, but maybe 
cutting magazines works with the same reliability in the printer? I will 
try.

I have to say that, I do not recall any of those residues having left an 
unetched spot or ruined a board. Maybe I've always cleaned them very 
well OR the etchant goes actually through it. Again, once I tried to use 
a paper cup to hold the etchant (luckily inside a plastic dish) and 
after few minutes the etchant ate all the base of the cup :)

So maybe all the concerns with paper residues are unnecessary?


bye
as

On 06/13/2010 12:26 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> Grab a piece of foam rubber, flexible polyurethane foam. Moisten it
> with water and rub the PCB down with it.

This is the one used for packaging and similar?

bye
as

Yes, you want the slightly yellowish stuff not the new white eco
friendly polypropylene or polyethylene foam.
The same kind used in cheap seat cushioning and such.

ST

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
> On 06/13/2010 12:26 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>
>> Grab a piece of foam rubber, flexible polyurethane foam. Moisten it
>> with water and rub the PCB down with it.
>
> This is the one used for packaging and similar?
>
> bye
> as

Alessio,

It's been my experience that the etchant dissolves the paper completely, and
it hasn't been necessary for me to do any paper cleanup whatsoever.  There's
substantial paper residue left before etching, but I just leave it in place.

Like Tolga above, I use magazine paper for transfer and warmed FeCl for
etching.  The paper residue may affect other methods differently.

-Andrew


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Use a MrClean Magic Eraser,

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/25317

Baxter

I've used a toothbrush with good results...

PG

On 14/06/2010, at 9:12 AM, bebx2000 wrote:

> 
> 
> Use a MrClean Magic Eraser,
> 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/25317
> 
> Baxter
> 
>

On 06/13/2010 07:41 AM, Andrew Villeneuve wrote:

> Like Tolga above, I use magazine paper for transfer and warmed FeCl for
> etching.  The paper residue may affect other methods differently.

With the muriatic acid method this does not work - I've tested this 
morning and the results are terrible :(

bye
as

On 06/14/2010 11:00 AM, Alessio Sangalli wrote:

> With the muriatic acid method this does not work - I've tested this
> morning and the results are terrible :(

Wait!!! This was before cleaning the etched board with acetone! It 
looked like a mess, but now that I removed the toner it is actually 
pretty nice!!!

Only thing I misaligned the two faces :( and I have to redo everything

bye
as

Congrats on a job well done - isn't it a good feeling when a board turns out good?  As many as I've etched, it still gives me a warm glow to see a fresh etched board that looks good.

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

>
> On 06/14/2010 11:00 AM, Alessio Sangalli wrote:
> 
> > With the muriatic acid method this does not work - I've tested this
> > morning and the results are terrible :(
> 
> Wait!!! This was before cleaning the etched board with acetone! It 
> looked like a mess, but now that I removed the toner it is actually 
> pretty nice!!!
> 
> Only thing I misaligned the two faces :( and I have to redo everything
> 
> bye
> as
>

On 06/14/2010 07:43 PM, sailingto wrote:
> Congrats on a job well done - isn't it a good feeling when a board
> turns out good?  As many as I've etched, it still gives me a warm
> glow to see a fresh etched board that looks good.

I've even etched a love PCB for my wife tonight, she was so happy :)

And I did not have to painfully clean the board from all paper... just 
roughly removed the paper and threw the board in the etchant. With the 
time saved I drilled the boards for another project.

bye!
as

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi. I think I got a good technique to make fairly complicated PCBs, 
> double-face, etc. The toner transfer technique allows me to do very thin 
> traces, and it's very consistent. I'm really happy; anyway, what is 
> really slowing me down at this point is the paper removal. I have to 
> inspect the PCB very carefully before etching, as lots of tiny pieces of 
> paper remain attached between traces. It is extremely frustrating; what 
> do you suggest to do?
> 
> bye
> as
>


Try different paper until you get one that doesn't do that. I've found that a few different catalogs are printed on paper that leaves very little residue, one in particular leaves virtually none at all.

If there is any, scrub it off with your finger under running water, properly transferred toner is pretty tough stuff.

I'm sure that there are 101 different opinions on direct toner transfer, and which papers to use.  I don't proclaim expertise, but I will pass along a few observations and some tricks that worked for me.



I have not had luck with magazine paper.  My printer, a Samsung ML2510, simply won't print dark enough on it for some reason.

Staples Photo Supreme (the lighter 200G/M paper) seems to work well, but there are some tricks to using it.  I did not have problems with melting using this paper at high temperatures.

1. Board preparation is critical, I polish the copper with Flitz then rinse with acetone for a shiny polished surface.  The matte surface left by a scouring pad did not adhere well. 

2. Pressure when heating is critical as well.  I'm using an iron on the highest setting and found that it took a good hard lean to provide sufficient pressure.

3. Soaking overnight in a solution of automatic dishwasher detergent did a good job of loosening the paper which can be peeled back as a single sheet revealing the mask on the copper.   

4. The gloss coating will stick to the mask and copper and is not water soluble.  Fortunately it is fragile and can easily be removed by laying down rows of packing tape and peeling them off.  If the mask peels off as well then the mask was not properly fused to the copper and might not have etched well.


My first attempt with this paper took four tries before I got a fully successful transfer. Since then I have usually been successful on the first try.

YMMV, disclaimers, etc..

-Chris

Hi,

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
> ... what is 
> really slowing me down at this point is the paper removal.

No paper removal required with inkjet transparencies.  If you use the ironing method, you can see how toner is melting and where you need more heat/pressure.  Let it cool to the touch and transparency lifts right off with all toner left on the copper.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/793762311/pic/2135995623/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Regards,
Dennis

Me, I'm puting soap (Ivory) on my paper for 3 minutes, when the board
is still very hot. Then I pour boiling water on it.

I let it in the water for 5 minutes, and then when I remove the paper,
there is none let on the board. You can keep it on the water longer. I
saw a message here recently saying it's better if you let it in the
water overnight. But to long for me ;)

I sometime have to scrub with my fingers a bit, but that's all.

JM

2011/1/8 D <dl5012@...>:

> Hi,
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>> ... what is
>> really slowing me down at this point is the paper removal.
>
> No paper removal required with inkjet transparencies.  If you use the ironing method, you can see how toner is melting and where you need more heat/pressure.  Let it cool to the touch and transparency lifts right off with all toner left on the copper.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/793762311/pic/2135995623/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
>
> Regards,
> Dennis
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Dennis,
can you tell me your process you used?
not sure if you used inkjet with a lazerjet as a two step process?
Robert, 

> 
> No paper removal required with inkjet transparencies.  If you use the ironing method, you can see how toner is melting and where you need more heat/pressure.  Let it cool to the touch and transparency lifts right off with all toner left on the copper.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/793762311/pic/2135995623/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
>

Hi Robert,

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bob@...> wrote:
> can you tell me your process you used?
> not sure if you used inkjet with a lazerjet as a two step process?

The process is pretty much the same as with paper.

I use inkjet transparencies in a laser printer.  My experience is that some brands of transparencies will work; I use HP.  I use a Lexmark Optra E+ printer with OEM and refills; no difference in transfer quality.  I used the same printer for paper transfers.

Iron until toner has melted sufficiently.  I iron until drill holes are almost closed to use as a pilot hole.  I use a paper towel between the transparency and iron to keep it from melting.

I wait until the board has cooled to the touch and start lifting at one corner.  If you find places where toner didn't transfer well before completely removing the transparency, it's easy to realign and iron more.

Then etch...

Regards,
Dennis

Thanks Dennis
I will give it a try but I think the Brothers Learjet has much higher 
temperature.
I will check that out.
Robert

On 1/8/2011 9:03 PM, D wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob"<bob@...>  wrote:
>> can you tell me your process you used?
>> not sure if you used inkjet with a lazerjet as a two step process?
> The process is pretty much the same as with paper.
>
> I use inkjet transparencies in a laser printer.  My experience is that some brands of transparencies will work; I use HP.  I use a Lexmark Optra E+ printer with OEM and refills; no difference in transfer quality.  I used the same printer for paper transfers.
>
> Iron until toner has melted sufficiently.  I iron until drill holes are almost closed to use as a pilot hole.  I use a paper towel between the transparency and iron to keep it from melting.
>
> I wait until the board has cooled to the touch and start lifting at one corner.  If you find places where toner didn't transfer well before completely removing the transparency, it's easy to realign and iron more.
>
> Then etch...
>
> Regards,
> Dennis
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>