Homebrew PCBs

Hi, I have yet to find a suitable container for the etchant (I use the 
muriatic acid thing).

It is true I can use any sort of plastic container: I even have one of 
those kits, with acquarium pump and bubbler and heater, but the main 
problem is that it is basically impossible to store safely, as it cannot 
be properly sealed. Pouring back to another, safer container can be 
still be problematic because of spills and such, and then I always have 
to wash everything, that takes time to do properly. Also, as I never do 
boards bigger than the standard 10x16 cm, I feel like a smaller 
container with "not so much" etchant would be so much better for my needs.

Any advice?

I have reached a point in my PCB making that I can do very fine boards, 
no problem, but I waste a lot of time in taking care of details, and I 
want to make the whole thing more streamlined.

bye
as

Maybe you could find a place where you could permanently store your etching
container, filled.
I put mine in a plastic box that can catch all the etchant (in case of a
spill), and covered the whole thing with another plastic box of the same
dimensions, as a lid. Keeps the dust out. The etchant container itself has a
cover too. None of the covers are air tight, but that doesn't seem to be a
problem. Keeping air exchange down with some kind of lid is enough.

ST

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...>wrote:

> Hi, I have yet to find a suitable container for the etchant (I use the
> muriatic acid thing).
>
> It is true I can use any sort of plastic container: I even have one of
> those kits, with acquarium pump and bubbler and heater, but the main
> problem is that it is basically impossible to store safely, as it cannot
> be properly sealed. Pouring back to another, safer container can be
> still be problematic because of spills and such, and then I always have
> to wash everything, that takes time to do properly. Also, as I never do
> boards bigger than the standard 10x16 cm, I feel like a smaller
> container with "not so much" etchant would be so much better for my needs.
>
> Any advice?
>
> I have reached a point in my PCB making that I can do very fine boards,
> no problem, but I waste a lot of time in taking care of details, and I
> want to make the whole thing more streamlined.
>
> bye
> as
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:50:57 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi, I have yet to find a suitable container for the etchant (I use the 
>muriatic acid thing).

I also use muriatic acid and H2O2.

I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the board.

Works well for me.

I would take the small container and put it in another larger, sealed
container to prevent spills.

Harvey

>
>It is true I can use any sort of plastic container: I even have one of 
>those kits, with acquarium pump and bubbler and heater, but the main 
>problem is that it is basically impossible to store safely, as it cannot 
>be properly sealed. Pouring back to another, safer container can be 
>still be problematic because of spills and such, and then I always have 
>to wash everything, that takes time to do properly. Also, as I never do 
>boards bigger than the standard 10x16 cm, I feel like a smaller 
>container with "not so much" etchant would be so much better for my needs.
>
>Any advice?
>
>I have reached a point in my PCB making that I can do very fine boards, 
>no problem, but I waste a lot of time in taking care of details, and I 
>want to make the whole thing more streamlined.
>
>bye
>as
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Harvey:

I am merely a "lurker" on the group, slowly ramping up
to do some etching.

When you say "muriatic acid" what percentage (i.e., 
strength)
is it?  Where do you buy it?

And the H2O2 is simply the 4% stuff you get at the corner
drugstore?

- Jim Tonne W4ENE




----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Harvey White" <madyn@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Etching container


> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:50:57 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Hi, I have yet to find a suitable container for the 
>>etchant (I use the
>>muriatic acid thing).
>
> I also use muriatic acid and H2O2.
>
> I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the 
> board.
>
> Works well for me.
>
> I would take the small container and put it in another 
> larger, sealed
> container to prevent spills.
>
> Harvey
>
>>
>>It is true I can use any sort of plastic container: I even 
>>have one of
>>those kits, with acquarium pump and bubbler and heater, 
>>but the main
>>problem is that it is basically impossible to store 
>>safely, as it cannot
>>be properly sealed. Pouring back to another, safer 
>>container can be
>>still be problematic because of spills and such, and then 
>>I always have
>>to wash everything, that takes time to do properly. Also, 
>>as I never do
>>boards bigger than the standard 10x16 cm, I feel like a 
>>smaller
>>container with "not so much" etchant would be so much 
>>better for my needs.
>>
>>Any advice?
>>
>>I have reached a point in my PCB making that I can do very 
>>fine boards,
>>no problem, but I waste a lot of time in taking care of 
>>details, and I
>>want to make the whole thing more streamlined.
>>
>>bye
>>as
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
>>Files, and Photos:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups 
>>Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups 
> Links
>
>
>

On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:27:10 -0400, you wrote:

>
>Harvey:
>
>I am merely a "lurker" on the group, slowly ramping up
>to do some etching.
>
>When you say "muriatic acid" what percentage (i.e., 
>strength)
>is it?  Where do you buy it?

30% I think.  It's the standard stuff you buy at the home big box
stores.
>
>And the H2O2 is simply the 4% stuff you get at the corner
>drugstore?
>

Yes.

Mixed 4 parts H2O2 to one part acid.  Does a wonderfully fast job of
etching for the first week, good for the second, slow for the third,
and lousy for the fourth.

May be regenerated by adding H2O2, however, will eventually change
into Cuprous Chloride etchant.

Do this by encouraging it and bubbling air through it when etching.
That regenerates the oxygen.  When it turns a green color, it's
probably about right (there's an excellent link on it that I don't
have at the moment).  From then on, needs to have air bubbled through
it, but never deteriorates, could possibly use plating out the copper,
but I'm not really sure on that.

Not there on the etchant quite yet, but will be soon.

Easier to get than Ferric Chloride.

Harvey

>- Jim Tonne W4ENE
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Harvey White" <madyn@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:53 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Etching container
>
>
>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:50:57 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>>Hi, I have yet to find a suitable container for the 
>>>etchant (I use the
>>>muriatic acid thing).
>>
>> I also use muriatic acid and H2O2.
>>
>> I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the 
>> board.
>>
>> Works well for me.
>>
>> I would take the small container and put it in another 
>> larger, sealed
>> container to prevent spills.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>>>
>>>It is true I can use any sort of plastic container: I even 
>>>have one of
>>>those kits, with acquarium pump and bubbler and heater, 
>>>but the main
>>>problem is that it is basically impossible to store 
>>>safely, as it cannot
>>>be properly sealed. Pouring back to another, safer 
>>>container can be
>>>still be problematic because of spills and such, and then 
>>>I always have
>>>to wash everything, that takes time to do properly. Also, 
>>>as I never do
>>>boards bigger than the standard 10x16 cm, I feel like a 
>>>smaller
>>>container with "not so much" etchant would be so much 
>>>better for my needs.
>>>
>>>Any advice?
>>>
>>>I have reached a point in my PCB making that I can do very 
>>>fine boards,
>>>no problem, but I waste a lot of time in taking care of 
>>>details, and I
>>>want to make the whole thing more streamlined.
>>>
>>>bye
>>>as
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
>>>Files, and Photos:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups 
>>>Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
>> Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups 
>> Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On 05/31/2010 11:44 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> I put mine in a plastic box that can catch all the etchant (in case of a
> spill), and covered the whole thing with another plastic box of the same

Tha will not work for me, as I "share" the lab with many other people 
that could decide to move or touch at any time. Even if they are all 
expert persons, I need to have a safer solution to this problem :(

bye
as

On 05/31/2010 12:27 PM, Jim Tonne wrote:

> When you say "muriatic acid" what percentage (i.e.,
> strength)
> is it?  Where do you buy it?

I got mine at orchard hardware store, I think it was a gallon for 8 
bucks. I think there are slightly cheaper alternatives around.

> And the H2O2 is simply the 4% stuff you get at the corner
> drugstore?

Yes I get it at costco or walgreens if it is on sale. It is "flexible 
account" deductable, by the way.

bye
as

On 05/31/2010 11:53 AM, Harvey White wrote:

> I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the board.

Yes this is probably the simples yet most effective idea. I will look at 
Taret or Walmart next time I get there. Would you advice glass or 
plastic? Maybe glass for the internal and plastic for the external?

bye
as

On Mon, 31 May 2010 13:33:06 -0700, you wrote:

>On 05/31/2010 11:53 AM, Harvey White wrote:
>
>> I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the board.
>
>Yes this is probably the simples yet most effective idea. I will look at 
>Taret or Walmart next time I get there. Would you advice glass or 
>plastic? Maybe glass for the internal and plastic for the external?
>
>bye
>as
>
>
Watch the seals with the WalMart food containers. 

I had used a rectangular container with snap seals on all
four sides with FeCl for several years with no problems.

Last year I switched to CuCl and bought a new container.
A couple of months ago I pulled the container out to etch a 
board and noticed the snap seals had no snap. The gasket
material had turned white and brittle and was falling out. 
The container itself was otherwise in perfect condition. 
The contacts on several flashlight batteries stored near the 
etchant were black from the vapors.

When I was making the CuCl from HCl and copper, the 
gasket on the half gallon plastic food jar I was using
completely disappeared. Ditto an aquarium air stone.

It appears that unless the seal material has changed, 
CuCl eats things FeCl won't touch.

Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC

On Mon, 31 May 2010 13:33:06 -0700, you wrote:

>On 05/31/2010 11:53 AM, Harvey White wrote:
>
>> I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the board.
>
>Yes this is probably the simples yet most effective idea. I will look at 
>Taret or Walmart next time I get there. Would you advice glass or 
>plastic? Maybe glass for the internal and plastic for the external?

Glass would be more resistant, but then again, plastic is far cheaper
and does not break into tiny little pieces.  Plastic may be more
available.  The particular one I use holds a gallon and a half, about
5 liters, I think, and is made by "Rubbermaid".

Harvey

>
>bye
>as
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On 05/31/2010 03:38 PM, Harvey White wrote:

> available.  The particular one I use holds a gallon and a half, about
> 5 liters, I think, and is made by "Rubbermaid".

I am looking for something MUCH smaller anyway :) Thanks.

bye
as

I store the CuCl/Acid/H2O2 mix in the gallon jar that the HCl came in; it has all sorts of warnings about having a vented (possibly spillable) cap, which is basically what we want, right?

On 06/01/2010 02:12 AM, WestfW wrote:
> I store the CuCl/Acid/H2O2 mix in the gallon jar that the HCl came
> in; it has all sorts of warnings about having a vented (possibly
> spillable) cap, which is basically what we want, right?

Do we? Are you saying it is necessary to have a vented cap?

bye
as

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> On 06/01/2010 02:12 AM, WestfW wrote:
> > I store the CuCl/Acid/H2O2 mix in the gallon jar that the HCl came
> > in; it has all sorts of warnings about having a vented (possibly
> > spillable) cap, which is basically what we want, right?
> 
> Do we? Are you saying it is necessary to have a vented cap?
> 
> bye
> as
>

It's a good idea. I usually leave the cap just slightly loose on the bottle I store my etchant in. I sealed it tightly once and the next time I went to use it the bottle was bulged out all over and let out a good hiss when I opened it.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I have yet to find a suitable container for the etchant (I use the 
> muriatic acid thing).
> 
> It is true I can use any sort of plastic container: I even have one of 
> those kits, with acquarium pump and bubbler and heater, but the main 
> problem is that it is basically impossible to store safely, as it cannot 
> be properly sealed. Pouring back to another, safer container can be 
> still be problematic because of spills and such, and then I always have 
> to wash everything, that takes time to do properly. Also, as I never do 
> boards bigger than the standard 10x16 cm, I feel like a smaller 
> container with "not so much" etchant would be so much better for my needs.
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> I have reached a point in my PCB making that I can do very fine boards, 
> no problem, but I waste a lot of time in taking care of details, and I 
> want to make the whole thing more streamlined.
> 
> bye
> as
>


Pick up a plastic chemical storage bottle, they make them for just this purpose and they're not hugely expensive. Pouring it back in the bottle is simple, use a funnel and wear gloves just in case. I also lay down a plastic trash bag over the work surface to catch any spills and keep a jug of baking soda mixed in water nearby to neutralize any spilled acid.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Tonne" <tonne@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Harvey:
> 
> I am merely a "lurker" on the group, slowly ramping up
> to do some etching.
> 
> When you say "muriatic acid" what percentage (i.e., 
> strength)
> is it?  Where do you buy it?
> 
> And the H2O2 is simply the 4% stuff you get at the corner
> drugstore?
> 
> - Jim Tonne W4ENE
> 
>


I got mine at Cadman building supplies, I think it's 30% strength, at any rate it was under $10 for a gallon and works fine. I used 3% peroxide initially but now I use 40 volume (12%) I got from a beauty supply store. I add a capful of that to recharge the etchant when I don't feel like waiting for the air bubbling to do it.

The disadvantage of this method is that preparation and cleanup can take as
much time as all other tasks in making the board.
I understand the OP and why he doesn't want to deal with that each time he
etches.

Lacking a safe place that nobody disturbs I can't think of anything better
that a couple of nested plastic food containers. The problem is how to add
heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess.

ST



On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 10:44 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

>
> Pick up a plastic chemical storage bottle, they make them for just this
> purpose and they're not hugely expensive. Pouring it back in the bottle is
> simple, use a funnel and wear gloves just in case. I also lay down a plastic
> trash bag over the work surface to catch any spills and keep a jug of baking
> soda mixed in water nearby to neutralize any spilled acid.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi!


"The problem is how to add heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess".


See if this is a better solution for you:
http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> The disadvantage of this method is that preparation and cleanup can take as
> much time as all other tasks in making the board.
> I understand the OP and why he doesn't want to deal with that each time he
> etches.
> 
> Lacking a safe place that nobody disturbs I can't think of anything better
> that a couple of nested plastic food containers. The problem is how to add
> heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 10:44 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Pick up a plastic chemical storage bottle, they make them for just this
> > purpose and they're not hugely expensive. Pouring it back in the bottle is
> > simple, use a funnel and wear gloves just in case. I also lay down a plastic
> > trash bag over the work surface to catch any spills and keep a jug of baking
> > soda mixed in water nearby to neutralize any spilled acid.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> The disadvantage of this method is that preparation and cleanup can take as
> much time as all other tasks in making the board.
> I understand the OP and why he doesn't want to deal with that each time he
> etches.
> 
> Lacking a safe place that nobody disturbs I can't think of anything better
> that a couple of nested plastic food containers. The problem is how to add
> heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess.
> 
> ST
> 



It only takes maybe 2-3 minutes to pour the etchant into the tank and then pour it back when finished. For me it's at least a couple hours to draw the layout in the first place, then a few minutes to print it out, 5-10 minutes for the laminator to warm up, a few minutes to clean and prep the board, another minute or two to transfer the toner, a few minutes to soak the paper off, 5-15 minutes to etch, then cleanup. The time it takes to pour the etchant back into the storage bottle and rinse out the etching tank is almost trivial.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <richard.liberatoscioli@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
> 
> 
> "The problem is how to add heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess".
> 
> 
> See if this is a better solution for you:
> http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
> 
> 



For a product with "professional" in the title, that website reads like it was written by a 12 year old. 

IMO a bubble tank works really well, is cheap, easy to make, I really have few complaints.

For my bubbler I bought a piece of small acrylic tube, it was under a dollar for a whole piece. I used a heat gun to soften the tip and then squished it to seal, then I used a PCB drill bit to drill a number of tiny holes down the length and lastly heated with a heat gun and bent into an L shape so the part with the holes lays across the bottom of the tank. It was cheap, easy to make, and works pretty well.

well ..... I don't know about you James, but I'll take 4 babes sponging down my PCB over your "bubble tank" any day!  : )





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <richard.liberatoscioli@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> > 
> > 
> > "The problem is how to add heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess".
> > 
> > 
> > See if this is a better solution for you:
> > http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> For a product with "professional" in the title, that website reads like it was written by a 12 year old. 
> 
> IMO a bubble tank works really well, is cheap, easy to make, I really have few complaints.
> 
> For my bubbler I bought a piece of small acrylic tube, it was under a dollar for a whole piece. I used a heat gun to soften the tip and then squished it to seal, then I used a PCB drill bit to drill a number of tiny holes down the length and lastly heated with a heat gun and bent into an L shape so the part with the holes lays across the bottom of the tank. It was cheap, easy to make, and works pretty well.
>

Making the whole board takes no more than 10 minutes (I'm not counting the
etching since I don't stand there waiting for it to finish). Cleaning the
tank out each time would easily double the overall time for me, and
dramatically increase the mess factor, which is now virtualy zero (the
messiest part is rubbing the paper off over a trash bin).

If you count drawing the layout, the next guy counts soldering the board,
that's not really sensible.

ST

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 10:52 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

>
> It only takes maybe 2-3 minutes to pour the etchant into the tank and then
> pour it back when finished. For me it's at least a couple hours to draw the
> layout in the first place, then a few minutes to print it out, 5-10 minutes
> for the laminator to warm up, a few minutes to clean and prep the board,
> another minute or two to transfer the toner, a few minutes to soak the paper
> off, 5-15 minutes to etch, then cleanup. The time it takes to pour the
> etchant back into the storage bottle and rinse out the etching tank is
> almost trivial.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In article <hu6gld+s923@...>,
   James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
> For my bubbler I bought a piece of small acrylic tube,

I find that interesting because I had read that Acrylic doesn't like acids
very much and tends to "craze" after a while.

However, reading your other posts it sounds like you only expose it to
acid during the process whereas I wish to store the acid in my tank, as I
have been doing with my now, preety well past it, commercial tank for
years.

-- 
Midlands Midsummer Mug show, for all things RISC OS, July 10th 2010.
Stuart Winsor

Though I confess to only trying the sponge-etching process once, it was very
labor intensive and I had miserable results with it.

It took about 15-20 minutes of manually scrubbing the board, and still made
a considerable mess.

Also, though it worked well with my toner transfer pattern, it scrubbed all
my resist-ink corrections off the board, even the really dark traces.

I expect my method can be improved upon, but I found that using even a
simple etching tank was much quicker, even including all of the setup and
putting away.

-Andrew

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Richard <richard.liberatoscioli@...>wrote:

>
> See if this is a better solution for you:
>
> http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andrew!

For an normal scrubbed etch time of 1min for 1/2oz  and 2mins for 1oz copper, it took you 15-20 mins to etch your board? What were you using for etching solution ..... "chicken broth"???  : ( 

In trying any new process, most of the mistakes are made in the first and early attempts, you may want to revisit this method as it address many of the objectable issues by other means.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:

>
> Though I confess to only trying the sponge-etching process once, it was very
> labor intensive and I had miserable results with it.
> 
> It took about 15-20 minutes of manually scrubbing the board, and still made
> a considerable mess.
> 
> Also, though it worked well with my toner transfer pattern, it scrubbed all
> my resist-ink corrections off the board, even the really dark traces.
> 
> I expect my method can be improved upon, but I found that using even a
> simple etching tank was much quicker, even including all of the setup and
> putting away.
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Richard <richard.liberatoscioli@...>wrote:
> 
> >
> > See if this is a better solution for you:
> >
> > http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> On 05/31/2010 11:53 AM, Harvey White wrote:
> 
> > I use a sealable food container, suitably sized for the board.
> 
> Yes this is probably the simples yet most effective idea. I will look at 
> Taret or Walmart next time I get there. Would you advice glass or 
> plastic? Maybe glass for the internal and plastic for the external?
> 
> bye
> as
>


I would use plastic, either is fine but if you drop a glass jar of acid and it shatters you will have a huge mess. If you insist on using glass, make sure the lid contains no metal.

Andrew,
If you read the following link, especially the comments at the bottom by other readers, it might help. The one thing I don't like about the way the "sponge etching" process is illustrated, is that it does not take into account the environmental impact. The author talks about rinsing the PCB down the DRAIN. He has no regard for the environment.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/

...but it looks like the effectiveness of the etching process depends on your copper thickness.

Frank P.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:

>
> Though I confess to only trying the sponge-etching process once, it was very
> labor intensive and I had miserable results with it.
> 
> It took about 15-20 minutes of manually scrubbing the board, and still made
> a considerable mess.
> 
> Also, though it worked well with my toner transfer pattern, it scrubbed all
> my resist-ink corrections off the board, even the really dark traces.
> 
> I expect my method can be improved upon, but I found that using even a
> simple etching tank was much quicker, even including all of the setup and
> putting away.
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Richard <richard.liberatoscioli@...>wrote:
> 
> >
> > See if this is a better solution for you:
> >
> > http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

--- On Fri, 6/4/10, Frank P <qz9090@...> wrote:

From: Frank P <qz9090@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching container
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 6:35 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      Andrew,

If you read the following link, especially the comments at the bottom by other readers, it might help. The one thing I don't like about the way the "sponge etching" process is illustrated, is that it does not take into account the environmental impact. The author talks about rinsing the PCB down the DRAIN. He has no regard for the environment.



http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/



...but it looks like the effectiveness of the etching process depends on your copper thickness.



Frank P.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:

>

> Though I confess to only trying the sponge-etching process once, it was very

> labor intensive and I had miserable results with it.

> 

> It took about 15-20 minutes of manually scrubbing the board, and still made

> a considerable mess.

> 

> Also, though it worked well with my toner transfer pattern, it scrubbed all

> my resist-ink corrections off the board, even the really dark traces.

> 

> I expect my method can be improved upon, but I found that using even a

> simple etching tank was much quicker, even including all of the setup and

> putting away.

> 

> -Andrew

> 

> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Richard <richard.liberatoscioli@...>wrote:

> 

> >

> > See if this is a better solution for you:

> >

> > http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html

> >

> >

> >

> 

> 

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 06/02/2010 01:52 PM, James wrote:


> then cleanup. The time it takes to pour the etchant back into the
> storage bottle and rinse out the etching tank is almost trivial.

But, one gets late one minute at a time :)

bye
as

On 06/04/2010 10:50 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
> You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.

I think he was referring to (metal?) pipes and ducts...


bye
as

I see I have a very great benifit in making small boards..  I use a "Baby Food" Glass jar,  etch my little board, put the cap back on wipe off the outside, and put it back in the cupboard for the next time..   I only use two tablespoons of fluid, and I use it over and over..

But it's nice watching all you fellows, coming up with a better way..

Cheers.


Harvey L. McRae, 
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, BC. V1X2B3,
Phone 250-765-1000
www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: James 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 1:58 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching container


    


  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <richard.liberatoscioli@...> wrote:
  >
  > Hi!
  > 
  > 
  > "The problem is how to add heating and a bubbler to this without making a mess".
  > 
  > 
  > See if this is a better solution for you:
  > http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
  > 
  > 

  For a product with "professional" in the title, that website reads like it was written by a 12 year old. 

  IMO a bubble tank works really well, is cheap, easy to make, I really have few complaints.

  For my bubbler I bought a piece of small acrylic tube, it was under a dollar for a whole piece. I used a heat gun to soften the tip and then squished it to seal, then I used a PCB drill bit to drill a number of tiny holes down the length and lastly heated with a heat gun and bent into an L shape so the part with the holes lays across the bottom of the tank. It was cheap, easy to make, and works pretty well.



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2913 - Release Date: 06/02/10 02:57:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alessio,
The FeCl will damage your metal pipes and ducts in your home but I also believe that the copper that is etched shouldn't go down the drain. 

In my  opinion, FeCl may not be considered hazardous waste but it should be disposed of properly. In the area that I live, I was asked to take any FeCl I used to the local hazardous waste facility.

Frank P.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

>
> On 06/04/2010 10:50 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
> > You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.
> 
> I think he was referring to (metal?) pipes and ducts...
> 
> 
> bye
> as
>

I'm honestly not sure what the thickness of the board was - I don't still
have the packaging, but I know that the subsequent board I etched in an
etching container was from the same batch.

Also, I used the same bottle of FeCl in both situations.

I suspect I might get better results by heating the etching before sponging,
but most of the howtos I've read indicate that that's not necessary.

Maybe I wasn't using enough pressure?  I was trying to be careful to
maintain my Sharpie traces, but now I know that those are a lost cause, and
the toner isn't going anywhere, so I don't need to be so worried about
applying too much pressure.

I'm certain I could probably make the system work with some experimenting,
and I'd be happy to discuss the process I used with anyone who's trying to
troubleshoot where it went wrong.  But since it's supposed to be a
convenience shortcut, I'm not personally going to be pursuing it much
further when I already have something that "works for me".

-Andrew

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Richard <richard.liberatoscioli@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi Andrew!
>
> For an normal scrubbed etch time of 1min for 1/2oz and 2mins for 1oz
> copper, it took you 15-20 mins to etch your board? What were you using for
> etching solution ..... "chicken broth"??? : (
>
> In trying any new process, most of the mistakes are made in the first and
> early attempts, you may want to revisit this method as it address many of
> the objectable issues by other means.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:
>
> You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.
> 
> Malcolm
> 
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
>



You sure don't want to do that if you have any metal pipes or fittings. Not to mention it's illegal (in the US anyway) and the dissolved copper is highly toxic to marine life. 

Mix it with sodium hydroxide and you can pour off the saltwater that it makes and dump the precipitate in a sealed container to throw in the trash.

Malcolm,
Where do you get sodium hydroxide?
Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?

Thanks.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@> wrote:
> >
> > You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.
> > 
> > Malcolm
> > 
> > I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> >
> 
> 
> 
> You sure don't want to do that if you have any metal pipes or fittings. Not to mention it's illegal (in the US anyway) and the dissolved copper is highly toxic to marine life. 
> 
> Mix it with sodium hydroxide and you can pour off the saltwater that it makes and dump the precipitate in a sealed container to throw in the trash.
>

Frank

I don't use Sodium Hydroxide I just use the recommended method that was advised by the local council waste adviser when we used to dispose of 3 x 5 gallon lots at the company I worked for here in the UK. Just dilute it 5:1 with water and pour down the drain.

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

--- On Tue, 6/8/10, Frank P <qz9090@...> wrote:

From: Frank P <qz9090@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching container
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 6:24 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      Malcolm,

Where do you get sodium hydroxide?

Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?



Thanks.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

>

> 

> 

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@> wrote:

> >

> > You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.

> > 

> > Malcolm

> > 

> > I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

> >

> 

> 

> 

> You sure don't want to do that if you have any metal pipes or fittings. Not to mention it's illegal (in the US anyway) and the dissolved copper is highly toxic to marine life. 

> 

> Mix it with sodium hydroxide and you can pour off the saltwater that it makes and dump the precipitate in a sealed container to throw in the trash.

>





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 08/06/2010 18:24, Frank P wrote:
> Malcolm,
> Where do you get sodium hydroxide?
> Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?

My local hardware shop sells it.

Just pour it down the sink, it's used as a drain cleaner.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

I have to put my 2c in on this. Too many years ago when I was in high school I did a lot of PCB etching. I dumped it all down the drain. Many years later after I bought my parents house, I got my reward. The drain pipes were black iron and were eaten away. The ones not involved with my choice of disposal were in great shape. A question about some of the "dumping" going on. Are these "experts" being asked how to dispose of Ferric Chloride? or spent Ferric Chloride full of dissolved copper. The one with the dissolved copper is a hazardous waste. Where I live I can just put it in a safe container, label it and take it to our waste facility office for proper disposal.

Roger

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> On 08/06/2010 18:24, Frank P wrote:
> > Malcolm,
> > Where do you get sodium hydroxide?
> > Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?
> 
> My local hardware shop sells it.
> 
> Just pour it down the sink, it's used as a drain cleaner.
> 
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>

On 06/08/2010 01:42 PM, Leon Heller wrote:

>> Where do you get sodium hydroxide?
>> Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?
> Just pour it down the sink, it's used as a drain cleaner.

Warning: don't store sodium hydroxide (NaOH) in plastic soda bottles. 
Mine finally gave way last weekend, had a tub full of 1M NaOH (yes, I 
keep it all in a catch-basin, and good thing too).  Plastic is organic - 
NaOH dissolves organics - duh.  It still took about a year, though.

Sodium Hydroxide can be poured down the drain, yes.  It won't harm metal 
drainpipes, and won't dissolve PVC that quickly.  Etchant will dissolve 
metal pipes eventually, but will leave PVC alone.  In either case, *if* 
you pour anything down the drain, *first* dilute it a lot, and run the 
water for a while after to rinse the drain system out and further dilute it.

Your local waste transfer station can tell you what your other options 
are.  Ours has an annual hazardous waste day for such things.

The Ferric Chloride waste we used to dispose of WAS loaded with copper AND the advice was that the amount was of no significance when diluted. A tanker load may be more problematic.

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

--- On Tue, 6/8/10, pr0pert <propert@...> wrote:

From: pr0pert <propert@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching container
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 6:57 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      I have to put my 2c in on this. Too many years ago when I was in high school I did a lot of PCB etching. I dumped it all down the drain. Many years later after I bought my parents house, I got my reward. The drain pipes were black iron and were eaten away. The ones not involved with my choice of disposal were in great shape. A question about some of the "dumping" going on. Are these "experts" being asked how to dispose of Ferric Chloride? or spent Ferric Chloride full of dissolved copper. The one with the dissolved copper is a hazardous waste. Where I live I can just put it in a safe container, label it and take it to our waste facility office for proper disposal.



Roger



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

>

> On 08/06/2010 18:24, Frank P wrote:

> > Malcolm,

> > Where do you get sodium hydroxide?

> > Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?

> 

> My local hardware shop sells it.

> 

> Just pour it down the sink, it's used as a drain cleaner.

> 

> Leon

> -- 

> Leon Heller

> G1HSM

>





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Uhhh...  Drano?

On 06/08/2010 12:24 PM, Frank P wrote:
> Malcolm,
> Where do you get sodium hydroxide?
> Also, is your disposal method the "official, recommended" method of disposal?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James"<jamesrsweet@...>  wrote:
>    
>>
>>
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg<mparkerlisberg@>  wrote:
>>      
>>> You can flush Ferric Chloride down the drain, it is already used by water treatment plants.
>>>
>>> Malcolm
>>>
>>> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
>>>
>>>        
>>
>>
>> You sure don't want to do that if you have any metal pipes or fittings. Not to mention it's illegal (in the US anyway) and the dissolved copper is highly toxic to marine life.
>>
>> Mix it with sodium hydroxide and you can pour off the saltwater that it makes and dump the precipitate in a sealed container to throw in the trash.
>>
>>      
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>    


-- 
Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution.
Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

    --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803

There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
  -- Ed Howdershelt (Author)

On 08/06/2010 21:23, Dale J. Chatham wrote:
> Uhhh...  Drano?


I think that Drano is sodium hydroxide (we have something similar called 
Mr Muscle here in the UK), but it probably has other stuff in it.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Uhh...  The question was "where do I get NaOH?"

The answer was Drano.

I'm not sure how effective it is against Cu, though.

On 06/08/2010 04:27 PM, Leon Heller wrote:
> On 08/06/2010 21:23, Dale J. Chatham wrote:
>    
>> Uhhh...  Drano?
>>      
>
> I think that Drano is sodium hydroxide (we have something similar called
> Mr Muscle here in the UK), but it probably has other stuff in it.
>
> Leon
>    


-- 
Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution.
Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

    --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803

There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
  -- Ed Howdershelt (Author)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dale J. Chatham" <dale@...> wrote:
>
> Uhh...  The question was "where do I get NaOH?"
> 
> The answer was Drano.
> 
> I'm not sure how effective it is against Cu, though.
> 
>


It causes the dissolved Cu to precipitate out so you can dispose of it as solid waste.

Doh!  Of course it does.



On 06/09/2010 12:06 AM, James wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dale J. Chatham"<dale@...>  wrote:
>    
>> Uhh...  The question was "where do I get NaOH?"
>>
>> The answer was Drano.
>>
>> I'm not sure how effective it is against Cu, though.
>>
>>
>>      
>
> It causes the dissolved Cu to precipitate out so you can dispose of it as solid waste.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>    


-- 
Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution.
Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

    --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803

There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
  -- Ed Howdershelt (Author)