Homebrew PCBs

I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of 
the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is 
pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
<http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>

Mark

Wow, great job mark.  How long did this take you?

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

> I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of
> the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is
> pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
>
> Mark
>
>
-- 
Erik L. Knise
Pacific Shipping Company
Seattle, WA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That sure looks GOOD!!! If my Toner Transfer wasn't working so good I'd sure be looking at your process - Didn't you say you are still working on getting double sided to line up?

Thank you for sharing all your GREAT work.

Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

>
> I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of 
> the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is 
> pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
> 
> Mark
>

Took me about a week to do the documentation, but I've been playing 
with DLP for over a year, though I didn't get serious till 2-3 months ago.

Mark

At 12:49 PM 5/13/2010, you wrote:

>Wow, great job mark.  How long did this take you?
>
>On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
> > I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of
> > the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is
> > pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
>--
>Erik L. Knise
>Pacific Shipping Company
>Seattle, WA
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I have the theory for ds worked out, but I haven't implemented 
it.  The X axis is fixed by the paper guide, but will probably need 
to be changed to something longer. The Y (motion) axis needs a sensor 
that tells the mcu when the moving pcb has reached a point 
approximately where the Paper In Sensor was. It is this sensor that 
(I think) starts the timing for the actual print. A slot in the 
carrier with an optical sensor should work fine. The rest is just a 
tweak in the software.

Mark

At 02:19 PM 5/13/2010, you wrote:

>That sure looks GOOD!!! If my Toner Transfer wasn't working so good 
>I'd sure be looking at your process - Didn't you say you are still 
>working on getting double sided to line up?
>
>Thank you for sharing all your GREAT work.
>
>Ken H>
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> >
> > I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of
> > the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is
> > pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hello Mark
I have purchased an E260D printer ... I don't yet have an isolated 
"CLEAN" workbench that I can give to this project but I have 
disassembled the printer to various degrees and reassembled it to get 
practice. When I feel comfortable, (can reassemble without referring to 
the manual or pictures) I will start cutting wires, plastic and metal. 
Thanks for all you have done to show how this modification is done.
Jim KI6MZ

Mark Lerman wrote:

> I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of 
> the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is 
> pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

The theory is sound, but I believe you're going to have to improve upon the
alignment accuracy that was originally in the printer to make usable
double-sided prints...most laser printers I've encountered have variations
in the printing alignment of well over 2mm from one page to the next.  This
kind of deviation would be imperceptible when printing documents, but
unusable when trying to align boards.

I suspect you can probably overcome this with some clever timing in your
MCU.  Off the top of my head, running the board though a photointerrupter
instead of using a mechanical alignment switch would probably improve
accuracy.

-Andrew

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I have the theory for ds worked out, but I haven't implemented
> it. The X axis is fixed by the paper guide, but will probably need
> to be changed to something longer. The Y (motion) axis needs a sensor
> that tells the mcu when the moving pcb has reached a point
> approximately where the Paper In Sensor was. It is this sensor that
> (I think) starts the timing for the actual print. A slot in the
> carrier with an optical sensor should work fine. The rest is just a
> tweak in the software.
>
> Mark
>
>
> At 02:19 PM 5/13/2010, you wrote:
> >That sure looks GOOD!!! If my Toner Transfer wasn't working so good
> >I'd sure be looking at your process - Didn't you say you are still
> >working on getting double sided to line up?
> >
> >Thank you for sharing all your GREAT work.
> >
> >Ken H>
> >
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of
> > > the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is
> > > pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> > > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
>
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll try it in the next week or so and let you know.
Mark


At 06:55 PM 5/14/2010, you wrote:

>The theory is sound, but I believe you're going to have to improve upon the
>alignment accuracy that was originally in the printer to make usable
>double-sided prints...most laser printers I've encountered have variations
>in the printing alignment of well over 2mm from one page to the next.  This
>kind of deviation would be imperceptible when printing documents, but
>unusable when trying to align boards.
>
>I suspect you can probably overcome this with some clever timing in your
>MCU.  Off the top of my head, running the board though a photointerrupter
>instead of using a mechanical alignment switch would probably improve
>accuracy.
>
>-Andrew
>
>On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I have the theory for ds worked out, but I haven't implemented
> > it. The X axis is fixed by the paper guide, but will probably need
> > to be changed to something longer. The Y (motion) axis needs a sensor
> > that tells the mcu when the moving pcb has reached a point
> > approximately where the Paper In Sensor was. It is this sensor that
> > (I think) starts the timing for the actual print. A slot in the
> > carrier with an optical sensor should work fine. The rest is just a
> > tweak in the software.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > At 02:19 PM 5/13/2010, you wrote:
> > >That sure looks GOOD!!! If my Toner Transfer wasn't working so good
> > >I'd sure be looking at your process - Didn't you say you are still
> > >working on getting double sided to line up?
> > >
> > >Thank you for sharing all your GREAT work.
> > >
> > >Ken H>
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have posted the final pictures of the process, including a photo of
> > > > the first board run through the converted printer. If anyone is
> > > > pursuing this technique, please let me know how you are doing.
> > > > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> >
> > >
> > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Mark,
I've been following a similar path, but with the Xerox/Tektronix Phaser solid wax ink printers.
I have a 8400 and an 850D that I run 8mil thick flexible single sided stock in the manual feed path.
It works well to a point, except sometimes I have to preheat the board going in. 

It's been hit and miss as I think I've been running into electrostatic issues similar to what you've
been working through.

I'm going to try the Carbomer/alcohol/water shared by David yahoo@... (www.laserpcb.com), 
1 cup water, 1 cup isopropyl alchohol, 4 tablespoons Carbomer 940

To see if that helps bring the line resolution down.
---------------------------------------------

***Your toner method has really good advantages that are leading me to abandon the solid wax printers:

1) Your line resolution looks better.  
2) If the transfer has issues, your method is much easier to dust off clean and redo. I have to strip the wax off & re-clean.

I have a E260DN ready to do your modifications( You do very impressive-creative work, process, and docs!! )
-Bought a small lab supply 0-10kv for experimenting just in case.

Questions:
1)I had a question about your instruction/comment below:
"Interestingly, using an un-coated aluminum carrier will not work –
it seems to require much less transfer voltage!"

Sorry if I sound dense, but does this mean "the coated carrier makes it require much less transfer voltage"

2) It seems as if the carrier and the PCB with the help of the KY make a simple capacitor
between the carrier's( expoxy insulated) inner plate
and the PCB surface. I was wondering if some of the
KY is conductive somewhat, and is it touching/bridging to the PCB surface
copper. Just curious on what you think?

Thanks,
-Lee

At 03:02 PM 5/17/2010, you wrote:
>Hi Mark,
>I've been following a similar path, but with the 
>Xerox/Tektronix Phaser solid wax ink printers.
>I have a 8400 and an 850D that I run 8mil thick 
>flexible single sided stock in the manual feed path.
>It works well to a point, except sometimes I 
>have to preheat the board going in.
>
>It's been hit and miss as I think I've been 
>running into electrostatic issues similar to what you've
>been working through.
>
>I'm going to try the Carbomer/alcohol/water 
>shared by David yahoo@... (www.laserpcb.com),
>1 cup water, 1 cup isopropyl alchohol, 4 tablespoons Carbomer 940
>
>To see if that helps bring the line resolution down.
>---------------------------------------------


I'm pretty sure what Dave's gel does is help the 
powered toner stick to the board as it passed 
through the fuser. He uses it in an intact laser 
printer on copper foil, not copper clad board.




>***Your toner method has really good advantages 
>that are leading me to abandon the solid wax printers:
>
>1) Your line resolution looks better.


I suspect the resolution of this process is a 
function of the resolution of the laser printer 
and the etching process. Thin traces (3 mil) are 
easy, but 3 mil traces with 3 mil spaces between 
them is not so easy. That's where the ability to 
decrease the toner density comes in handy. Using 
the toner density at maximum (via the E260 
utility program) makes it easy to get dense 
lines, but there really is too much toner if you 
want the lines close together. For that you have 
to back the density to about half (5 out of 10). 
Then you have to be able to fuse it without skips 
or smudging. Dave's gel certainly might be useful here.



>2) If the transfer has issues, your method is 
>much easier to dust off clean and redo. I have to strip the wax off & re-clean.
>
>I have a E260DN ready to do your modifications( 
>You do very impressive-creative work, process, and docs!! )
>-Bought a small lab supply 0-10kv for experimenting just in case.
>
>Questions:
>1)I had a question about your instruction/comment below:
>"Interestingly, using an un-coated aluminum carrier will not work ­
>it seems to require much less transfer voltage!"
>
>Sorry if I sound dense, but does this mean "the 
>coated carrier makes it require much less transfer voltage"



Oddly, it means exacly what it says. A coated 
aluminum carrier works perfectly with either a ds 
or ss pcb taped on top of it with ky between the 
carrier and board. The internal hv transfer 
voltage (as measured with my Fluke HV probe) is 
about 1600 volts. If I use a plain piece of 
aluminum as a carrier, the required voltage seems 
to be MUCH less. Unfortunately, by the time I did 
that experiment I had removed the external 
supply, but I can tell from the horribly 
distorted image that the voltage is way too high.





>2) It seems as if the carrier and the PCB with 
>the help of the KY make a simple capacitor
>between the carrier's( expoxy insulated) inner plate
>and the PCB surface. I was wondering if some of the
>KY is conductive somewhat, and is it touching/bridging to the PCB surface
>copper. Just curious on what you think?




The ky is mildly conductive, but I don't think it 
is bridging the sides of the board. In the past I 
experimented with soldering copper foil across 
the sides and it seemed to make no difference.


Good luck to you - let me know how things work for you.

Mark

>Thanks,
>-Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>