Homebrew_PCBs

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:09 PM, micro_minded <iceblu3710@...> wrote:

>
>
> Has anybody tried printing a solder mask onto their boards?
>
> I currently used pcb-fab-in-a-box with the GBC laminator and I can get 6mil
> traces and perfect boards every single time.
>
> I have been looking for a supplier in canada for dry film solder resist and
> found nobody, only this company in germany:
>
>
> http://www.octamex.de/shop/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=31&category_id=5848924494118370762daa6f026e22f7&
>
> and this guy using it:
>
> http://www.gerold-online.de/cms/en/uc-projects/soldermask.html
>
> My question is could you print on a flatbed modified printer 4 or 5 layers
> of color to build up an effective solder mask?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:55 AM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> Andrew, the "Fab-in-a-box" solution does give good results, and if yo
> purchase it from them, it is EXPENSIVE!!! BUT there are MUCH less expensive
> ways of going that route. The laminator can be ordered direct from MyBinding
> for $25 shipped, (used to be the same low/high setting heat laminator, but
> that version is sold out, so for $25 they only have a high heat version -
> all that's needed.
>
> The toner transfer paper can be ordered from DigiKey for about $17 shipped,
> and that is enough paper to make hundreds of boards by reusing the same
> paper several times - that is my approach. There are other papers that work
> almost as well that are free - as in magazine paper, OR the well know HP
> Presentation paper - just a tad harder to get off before etching.
>
> Good luck and have fun.
>
> Ken H>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
>
> There are definitely cheaper alternatives to the printing and etching parts
> of the product, but the solder resist masking seems to be thing that the
> fab-in-a-box system has working really well, and I haven't seen any cheap
> alternatives to that yet.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:55 AM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Andrew, the "Fab-in-a-box" solution does give good results, and if yo
> > purchase it from them, it is EXPENSIVE!!! BUT there are MUCH less expensive
> > ways of going that route. The laminator can be ordered direct from MyBinding
> > for $25 shipped, (used to be the same low/high setting heat laminator, but
> > that version is sold out, so for $25 they only have a high heat version -
> > all that's needed.
> >
> > The toner transfer paper can be ordered from DigiKey for about $17 shipped,
> > and that is enough paper to make hundreds of boards by reusing the same
> > paper several times - that is my approach. There are other papers that work
> > almost as well that are free - as in magazine paper, OR the well know HP
> > Presentation paper - just a tad harder to get off before etching.
> >
> > Good luck and have fun.
> >
> > Ken H>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:39 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> I did not realize Pulsar had any solder resist masking options. I have
> tried the green foil, but that's for sealing the toner, not to function as a
> solder resist - OR that is my understanding anyway. I've tried the green
> foil, and didn't work all that good for me. It's not really needed anyway as
> a good hot toner transfer seals the toner as well as needed for good
> etching.
>
> If you are referring to a different product, please provide a link - I'd
> like to look at it. A solder resist mask would be neat - look good anyway. I
> use oversized pads and traces with a tad of extra spacing so am able to get
> by without solder resist mask pretty good.
>
> Ken H.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
> >
> > There are definitely cheaper alternatives to the printing and etching
> parts
> > of the product, but the solder resist masking seems to be thing that the
> > fab-in-a-box system has working really well, and I haven't seen any cheap
> > alternatives to that yet.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:55 AM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andrew, the "Fab-in-a-box" solution does give good results, and if yo
> > > purchase it from them, it is EXPENSIVE!!! BUT there are MUCH less
> expensive
> > > ways of going that route. The laminator can be ordered direct from
> MyBinding
> > > for $25 shipped, (used to be the same low/high setting heat laminator,
> but
> > > that version is sold out, so for $25 they only have a high heat version
> -
> > > all that's needed.
> > >
> > > The toner transfer paper can be ordered from DigiKey for about $17
> shipped,
> > > and that is enough paper to make hundreds of boards by reusing the same
> > > paper several times - that is my approach. There are other papers that
> work
> > > almost as well that are free - as in magazine paper, OR the well know
> HP
> > > Presentation paper - just a tad harder to get off before etching.
> > >
> > > Good luck and have fun.
> > >
> > > Ken H>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Ken,
>
> You're right, I was actually thinking about this product in my last post:
>
> http://www.lpkfusa.com/boardfinish/promask.htm
>
> The price point is targeting "small shop" more than "homebrew", but if the
> marketing is to be believed, it produces fab-plant quality results. They've
> posted a video of the kit in action.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL1IuoUtVbw
>
> Getting set up with this thing runs you US$650 for the materials to run 20
> boards, and you'll need to have a UV developer table to use it, since it
> uses photo masking for the resist mask.
>
> You might be able to get by with skipping their starter set and just buying
> the consumables for $200 (look at their store on the website), but it's
> still pretty steep if, like me, you just thought solder mask "would be
> neat".
>
> -Andrew
>
>

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:27 AM, micro_minded <iceblu3710@...> wrote:

>
>
> I just ran into this website (
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm) that
> references this group. Turned an Epson into a flatbed printer.
>
> You can pick up an Epson R220 and the CISS ink cart on ebay for $40 each (
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Compatible-CISS-ink-Epson-R340-RX600-R300-R200-R220-/380120801532?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Toner&hash=item5880f720fc#ht_4561wt_940)
>
>
> I have a lot of posts to read through still but I'm guessing some members
> here use think inkjet method and other use the laser printer method. That
> website says people have had good luck printing on a solder mask and
> component layer as I want to do. Looks like the ink can handle the reflow
> oven temperatures and should provide enough of a mask to keep solder paste
> from flowing down the tracks no?
>
> Anyways enough pondering for tonight, need to find some pics/posts and see
> what others have got to work.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 4:11 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> Tolga, I am VERY impressed with your PCB work. I've spent a good bit of
> time reading and looking at photos - those are some VERY good double sided
> boards. I like your method of making the vias - I have some tiny rivets I
> use the same way.
>
> I sure wish I had found your website back when I first started fooling with
> PCB - Your idea on drilling first, then putting the transfer on to aid in
> lining up holes is something I will try. I don't have a CNC to drill with.
>
> Thanks for the good ideas and webpage.
>
> Ken H>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Actually, there is another method that I've been experimenting with. It's
> based on toner transfer and a glass paint called Pebeo Vitrea 160.
>
> You can see some of the results I've obtained here:
> http://retromaster.wordpress.com/pcb-making/. Just go down to the soldermask
> section for the details.
>
> Also, be sure to check out the "Remaining Issues" section. The way it was
> applied on the board there, the soldermask is not very strong, as it came
> off in several places (it is still a lot better than a PCB without a
> soldermask). This is how it ended-up:
> http://retromaster.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/ufe-sdram-la.jpg
>
> I've experimented with the two-step cure idea mentioned there, and that
> seems to produce a much stronger soldermask that does not come off easily.
> I'll soon update the PCB with results of the improved process.
>

>
>
> I also use a CNC machine to drill holes. I have an old XY stage that
> was given to me, and I built a Z stage that drives a Dremel. I'm using
> Allegro chips, A3955 and A2919 and running the voltage at ~26V. I get
> good torque and speed. I use the microstep feature to drop the current
> when not moving, to 10-15%. Even with a light table, I was never able
> to get the pattern to line up with the holes anywhere near as well as
> you do. I wrote some software that allows me to jog to 3 corners of the
> pattern and translate the hole coordinates to match, so now I transfer,
> drill and etch. I'm getting much better results. My drills may not be
> sharp enough, because if I etch then drill, the pad on the bottom tends
> to lift. But they are tough. During debug, signals got mixed up, and
> the XY stage took off while the drill was at the bottom, and it milled a
> slot in the board rather than break. It was a .035 drill. ;)
>
> I also like your via method. I tried it in a vise on a defective board,
> and the first try was perfect! The 2nd and 3rd were less perfect, the
> wire tend to push to one side of the board and all of the peening occurs
> on one side only. It takes a bit of care to get both sides to peen over
> adequately, but it can be done, and the results are worth it.
>
> Kerry
>
>
> Tolga Abaci wrote:
> > Actually, there is another method that I've been experimenting with. It's
> > based on toner transfer and a glass paint called Pebeo Vitrea 160.
> >
> > You can see some of the results I've obtained here:
> > http://retromaster.wordpress.com/pcb-making/.<http://retromaster.wordpress.com/pcb-making/>Just go down to the soldermask
> > section for the details.
> >
> > Also, be sure to check out the "Remaining Issues" section. The way it was
> > applied on the board there, the soldermask is not very strong, as it came
> > off in several places (it is still a lot better than a PCB without a
> > soldermask). This is how it ended-up:
> > http://retromaster.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/ufe-sdram-la.jpg
> >
> > I've experimented with the two-step cure idea mentioned there, and that
> > seems to produce a much stronger soldermask that does not come off
> easily.
> > I'll soon update the PCB with results of the improved process.
> >
>
>
>

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 7:26 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> > sense. How will you know where to drill the holes without a CNC? Or do
> you
> > plan to get one? Perhaps I am missing something.
>
> Well, not sure if drilling first will work or not, my idea was to print
> drill pattern on thin paper so holes 'n vias could be seen from back side,
> put TT paper on one side of PCB, run thru laminator once to stick paper in
> place. That would cause the drill pattern of all holes to be visible, then
> drill thru this thin paper.
>
> With all the holes drilled, I was hoping lining up both sides of TT paper
> to the existing drilled holes would improve hole registration. Currently my
> double sided boards have most of the traces on one side, with only a few on
> the other side. This keeps the holes to a minimum.
>
> As I write this, I'm not sure it will work - maybe I'll get to try later
> this week.
>
> Ken H>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > sense. How will you know where to drill the holes without a CNC? Or
> do you
> > plan to get one? Perhaps I am missing something.
>
> Well, not sure if drilling first will work or not, my idea was to
> print drill pattern on thin paper so holes 'n vias could be seen from
> back side, put TT paper on one side of PCB, run thru laminator once to
> stick paper in place. That would cause the drill pattern of all holes
> to be visible, then drill thru this thin paper.
>
> With all the holes drilled, I was hoping lining up both sides of TT
> paper to the existing drilled holes would improve hole registration.
> Currently my double sided boards have most of the traces on one side,
> with only a few on the other side. This keeps the holes to a minimum.
>
>
> As I write this, I'm not sure it will work - maybe I'll get to try
> later this week.
>
> Ken H>
>

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:59 AM, micro_minded <iceblu3710@...> wrote:

>
>
> Amazing work you have done, got me lookin for some of this glass paint.
> Turns out I can get any color they make in a 45ml jar for $5 at a local
> framing and art supply store.
>
> Now I gotta get an aquarium pump and make a cheap airbrush and run some
> tests.
>
> For anyone else interested here are some good pics: (not mine)
>
> http://dc220.4shared.com/img/287468073/eb7cf589/8d595cd12f0cfff9846a1a2b710af6.jpg?rnd=0.039624984953933406&sizeM=3
>
> http://dc220.4shared.com/img/287468074/7518602a/6f30e7c2e89f6575f3b97102893a7d.jpg?rnd=0.5840545487154954&sizeM=3
>
> http://dc220.4shared.com/img/287468070/7275a433/27e0b0340c384e8520cb5238854dc9.jpg?rnd=0.3785841829252953&sizeM=3
>
> If I can get results like that I will be plenty happy. Makes me wonder
> though if this paint can be injected into an ink cartridge and be printable.
> I know nothing if modding inkjets or how think their inks are. Anybody
> comment?
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Tolga Abaci <tolga.abaci@...> wrote:
>
> I am not sure if the paint would work in an inkjet head. It is water-based,
> I guess that's good. On the other hand, it's quite thick. Maybe if it's
> thinned enough and printed in several layers it would work. You need to have
> a fairly thick layer of this paint to get it work well as a soldermask.
>
> For me, this method was quite attractive for two reasons: First, the paint
> is cheap and available everywhere. Second, I already got the toner transfer
> process working well, and this is quite compatible with it, it was a mere
> extension.
>
> Right now, it looks like curing the paint in two steps is the key... The
> first cure (low temp - 120C) gets the paint strong enough to resist solvent,
> but not too resistant so that the solvent would remove only the toner-masked
> areas. The second cure (high temp - 160C) really fixes the paint in place
> and makes it solvent resistant.
>

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:38 PM, R. Ian Lee <ian@...> wrote:
> "Anyone know of a cheap way to make an airbrush?"
>
> Try in the toy dept at Walmart or other craft store that has modelling
> supplies. You can get a cheap airbrush that runs off canned air. Been many
> years since I've bought one, but I'm thinking you can probably get the whole
> setup for under $30.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:18 PM, micro_minded <iceblu3710@...> wrote:

>
>
> Have you tried ramping up the temp to 220C to see if the paint can
> withstand reflow temperatures?
>
> I have moved away from PTH design and onto SMT only and have had difficulty
> with paints, toners and reflowing. I use the pulsonix transfer setup and it
> works great but if you use toner as a soldermask or even as a component
> layer it melts/burns and can run into solder joints and ruin things.
> Hopefully this paint will stay in place and not liquefy.
>
> I'm planning on going out to grab some in a few hours and do some testing
> this weekend with fully fabbed boards and liquid tin at the end.
>
> Anyone know of a cheap way to make an airbrush? I don't have a compressor
> but I did find a $26 airbrush that might work:
>
> http://www.kmstools.com/badger-model-250-airbrush-set-73
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Tolga Abaci <tolga.abaci@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure if the paint would work in an inkjet head. It is
> water-based,
> > I guess that's good. On the other hand, it's quite thick. Maybe if it's
> > thinned enough and printed in several layers it would work. You need to
> have
> > a fairly thick layer of this paint to get it work well as a soldermask.
> >
> > For me, this method was quite attractive for two reasons: First, the
> paint
> > is cheap and available everywhere. Second, I already got the toner
> transfer
> > process working well, and this is quite compatible with it, it was a mere
> > extension.
> >
> > Right now, it looks like curing the paint in two steps is the key... The
> > first cure (low temp - 120C) gets the paint strong enough to resist
> solvent,
> > but not too resistant so that the solvent would remove only the
> toner-masked
> > areas. The second cure (high temp - 160C) really fixes the paint in place
> > and makes it solvent resistant.
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> I have made a little tin template for my little PCB's I bend the one edge and one end to act as a guide, place the pcb into the corner .... go to my little dremel drill stand, and within a minute or two (I'd say a minute) I have all 20 + holes drilled. My tin template was the top of the vegetable can that we had for lunch.. Remember my board is only 1x 1.5 inches.. I drilled ten night before last, with all the change of pieces in less than 15 minutes.
>
>
> Harvey L. McRae
> 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
>
> Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sailingto
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:26 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printing on a solder mask
>
>
>
> > sense. How will you know where to drill the holes without a CNC? Or do you
> > plan to get one? Perhaps I am missing something.
>
> Well, not sure if drilling first will work or not, my idea was to print drill pattern on thin paper so holes 'n vias could be seen from back side, put TT paper on one side of PCB, run thru laminator once to stick paper in place. That would cause the drill pattern of all holes to be visible, then drill thru this thin paper.
>
> With all the holes drilled, I was hoping lining up both sides of TT paper to the existing drilled holes would improve hole registration. Currently my double sided boards have most of the traces on one side, with only a few on the other side. This keeps the holes to a minimum.
>
> As I write this, I'm not sure it will work - maybe I'll get to try later this week.
>
> Ken H>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On 8/08/2011 8:58 PM, abuakif wrote:
>
> I did try using toner transfer technique (laminator + magazine) but my
> drill stand is not really fixed. I am thinking on getting the Proxxon
> later. In Malaysia, all the tools are probably a lot more expensive
> than the one in the States (I used to live and studied in St Louis for
> almost 10 years back in 1995 - 2001).
>
> Anyway, I just came back from a hardware store getting a airbrush
> compressor and just ordered Pebeo Vitrea 160 from Kuala Lumpur. Also,
> I just purchased an oven. These few days will be focused on getting
> the solder mask and silkscreen using the technique described by
> Retromaster.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have made a little tin template for my little PCB's I bend the one
> edge and one end to act as a guide, place the pcb into the corner ....
> go to my little dremel drill stand, and within a minute or two (I'd
> say a minute) I have all 20 + holes drilled. My tin template was the
> top of the vegetable can that we had for lunch.. Remember my board is
> only 1x 1.5 inches.. I drilled ten night before last, with all the
> change of pieces in less than 15 minutes.
> >
> >
> > Harvey L. McRae
> > 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> > Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
> >
> > Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: sailingto
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:26 AM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printing on a solder mask
> >
> >
> >
> > > sense. How will you know where to drill the holes without a CNC?
> Or do you
> > > plan to get one? Perhaps I am missing something.
> >
> > Well, not sure if drilling first will work or not, my idea was to
> print drill pattern on thin paper so holes 'n vias could be seen from
> back side, put TT paper on one side of PCB, run thru laminator once to
> stick paper in place. That would cause the drill pattern of all holes
> to be visible, then drill thru this thin paper.
> >
> > With all the holes drilled, I was hoping lining up both sides of TT
> paper to the existing drilled holes would improve hole registration.
> Currently my double sided boards have most of the traces on one side,
> with only a few on the other side. This keeps the holes to a minimum.
> >
> > As I write this, I'm not sure it will work - maybe I'll get to try
> later this week.
> >
> > Ken H>
> >
> >
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Boman33" <boman33@...> wrote:
>
> An alternative to a regular or specialized drillpress is to buy a small air
> grinder for 1/8" bits. It has very high RPM, about 50,000 and perfect for
> the carbide drill bits. Attach it to a small linear precision slide, cheap
> on eBay, and you have the basis for a very accurate and efficient system.
>
> I built one about 20 years ago and I added an air operated cylinder to
> drive it from a footswitch. I also set up a laser pointer to make it even
> faster to drill. The grinder is only about $ 22 from Harbor Freight. See:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/grinders/1-8-eighth-inch-air-micro-di
> e-grinder-47869.html
>
>
>
> Bertho
>
> ======================
>
>
>
> From abuakif Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 06:59
> I did try using toner transfer technique (laminator + magazine) but my drill
> stand is not really fixed. I am thinking on getting the Proxxon later. In
> Malaysia, all the tools are probably a lot more expensive than the one in
> the States (I used to live and studied in St Louis for almost 10 years back
> in 1995 - 2001).
>
> Anyway, I just came back from a hardware store getting a airbrush compressor
> and just ordered Pebeo Vitrea 160 from Kuala Lumpur. Also, I just purchased
> an oven. These few days will be focused on getting the solder mask and
> silkscreen using the technique described by Retromaster.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> an oven. These few days will be focused on getting the solder mask and
> silkscreen using the technique described by Retromaster.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>