Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-07 by Frank P
There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Thread
Best Way to Cut PCB
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-07 by studleylee
I use a harbor freight shear/bend/roll thing that I shimmed to have
a steeper cutting angle.
http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
if you wait for sales, I got mine for about $380
smaller version:
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-bench-top-shear-brake-90757.html
a steeper cutting angle.
http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
if you wait for sales, I got mine for about $380
smaller version:
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-bench-top-shear-brake-90757.html
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-09 by Frank P
Studleylee,
Thanks for your input but you solutions seem a bit pricey. There must be another way.... ?
Thanks for your input but you solutions seem a bit pricey. There must be another way.... ?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "studleylee" <indigo_red@...> wrote:
>
> I use a harbor freight shear/bend/roll thing that I shimmed to have
> a steeper cutting angle.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
>
> if you wait for sales, I got mine for about $380
>
> smaller version:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-bench-top-shear-brake-90757.html
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-09 by sailingto
I use a HF paper cutter - this is the one I use:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-x-9-3-4-quarter-inch-paper-cutter-9805.html
I move the PCB out to mid ways and it cuts pretty good up to .062", but the .032" is better. I wish I had got this one - it's larger and - I think it would have cut the .062" with less pressure:
http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-x-15-inch-paper-cutter-90874.html
This cuts about as well as anything going - MUCH less hassle than saws and such like. The shear listed before would be my choice, BUT for nearly $400 vs $13...... Hard choice.... well, maybe not.
Ken H>
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-x-9-3-4-quarter-inch-paper-cutter-9805.html
I move the PCB out to mid ways and it cuts pretty good up to .062", but the .032" is better. I wish I had got this one - it's larger and - I think it would have cut the .062" with less pressure:
http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-x-15-inch-paper-cutter-90874.html
This cuts about as well as anything going - MUCH less hassle than saws and such like. The shear listed before would be my choice, BUT for nearly $400 vs $13...... Hard choice.... well, maybe not.
Ken H>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-09 by Simao Cardoso
Frank P wrote:
cut pcb's. Once i had access to relevant pcb equipment and i used a pen
like tool with a carbide end to cut the big laminates to fit the shear
and with it cut to fit the cnc. Before the scriber tool i used a hand
tool with a sharpen hss bit, it was sharpen with the flute in favor to
the cut but required constant resharpening. The laminates were one
common from Isola Italy and was super easy with the scriber but
difficult in the shear.
Now, with my equipment, i buy laminates online cut to size, this one is
from Panasonic made somewhere in asia. It is lighter (cheaper postage)
but super stronger (both are fr4) i can't cut it with the scriber is
really hard. I got to use the big strong scissor used to cut metal
sheets, is like a handy shear and this laminate is really easy with it.
But it has about 8cm cut size, i can only cut 16cm max length or so. But
the cut is almost perfect, sand paper do the rest. If cut with the
scriber the grinder is a good option for finish.
My advice is, if you are thinking to spend more than the casual lunch
money build/buy a cnc router (i did).
Simão
>Besides i own 3 types of table saw's never cross my mind using them to
> Thanks for your input but you solutions seem a bit pricey. There must
> be another way.... ?
cut pcb's. Once i had access to relevant pcb equipment and i used a pen
like tool with a carbide end to cut the big laminates to fit the shear
and with it cut to fit the cnc. Before the scriber tool i used a hand
tool with a sharpen hss bit, it was sharpen with the flute in favor to
the cut but required constant resharpening. The laminates were one
common from Isola Italy and was super easy with the scriber but
difficult in the shear.
Now, with my equipment, i buy laminates online cut to size, this one is
from Panasonic made somewhere in asia. It is lighter (cheaper postage)
but super stronger (both are fr4) i can't cut it with the scriber is
really hard. I got to use the big strong scissor used to cut metal
sheets, is like a handy shear and this laminate is really easy with it.
But it has about 8cm cut size, i can only cut 16cm max length or so. But
the cut is almost perfect, sand paper do the rest. If cut with the
scriber the grinder is a good option for finish.
My advice is, if you are thinking to spend more than the casual lunch
money build/buy a cnc router (i did).
Simão
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-09 by Harvey McRae
I just required 20 (1 x 1.5 inch) PC Boards. I fully polished the larger piece....I have a regular size table saw, which I put the finest blade that I own in place. I set the 1 inch guide, took a piece of 1/8th masonite and cut through this to make a new base.... I now cut all my 1 inch strips.... Reset the guide for 1.5 inch and cut the strips into 1 1/2 pieces. The edges were a little rough but I just run them past my grinding wheel to take the corner off. I cut these with the copper clad side facing up.....I think my next attempt will be copper side down. In fact my last couple of cuts I made face down and they were not near as rough.
Carefull on the fingers, I realize I am working very close to that saw blade.. Remember fingers cut even better than a PC Board.. They even leave more of a mess..
I too am watching these answers, as I am open to suggestions for a better way than what I have..
Cheers.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
Carefull on the fingers, I realize I am working very close to that saw blade.. Remember fingers cut even better than a PC Board.. They even leave more of a mess..
I too am watching these answers, as I am open to suggestions for a better way than what I have..
Cheers.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank P
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 12:45 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
Studleylee,
Thanks for your input but you solutions seem a bit pricey. There must be another way.... ?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "studleylee" <indigo_red@...> wrote:
>
> I use a harbor freight shear/bend/roll thing that I shimmed to have
> a steeper cutting angle.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
>
> if you wait for sales, I got mine for about $380
>
> smaller version:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-bench-top-shear-brake-90757.html
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-09 by Harvey McRae
I tried my paper cutter, but taking off a piece that you want to use, is hopeless. The piece to the inside of the blade is cut quite smooth, but the cutoff piece just splinters to bits..
That's why I reverted bask to my Table saw.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
That's why I reverted bask to my Table saw.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: sailingto
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 2:10 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
I use a HF paper cutter - this is the one I use:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-x-9-3-4-quarter-inch-paper-cutter-9805.html
I move the PCB out to mid ways and it cuts pretty good up to .062", but the .032" is better. I wish I had got this one - it's larger and - I think it would have cut the .062" with less pressure:
http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-x-15-inch-paper-cutter-90874.html
This cuts about as well as anything going - MUCH less hassle than saws and such like. The shear listed before would be my choice, BUT for nearly $400 vs $13...... Hard choice.... well, maybe not.
Ken H>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by sailingto
Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
Ken H>
Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
Ken H>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Andrew
There's been a lot of discussion, quite recently, about this as well. My vote is for a metal-cutting bandsaw and fine-tooth metal-cutting blade -- about $160 from Harbor Freight (on sale or with 20% coupon). Yes, that's a lot to pay just to cut PCB, but if you have any need to cut metal on any sort of regular basis, this will work for both tasks.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Harvey McRae
!!!!!!!!If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.!!!!!!!!!!
I'm putting on a little clinic on etching boards for our model railroad group. Although I have been aware of having to put on this clinic for two months, I dilly dalied around until last night when I am scheduled to do this clinic on this coming wednesday night...
Further to this, I am making up a little parts bag, and each person will etch his own board.....(I have pre-drilled the holes) then each one puts the parts together solders them in place, and hopefully after a couple of evenings working as a group, each member will go home with a "working" model of a dual flashing light.
Pray for me for Wednesday night, that all goes well.. This is the first clinic I have done on this subject.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
I'm putting on a little clinic on etching boards for our model railroad group. Although I have been aware of having to put on this clinic for two months, I dilly dalied around until last night when I am scheduled to do this clinic on this coming wednesday night...
Further to this, I am making up a little parts bag, and each person will etch his own board.....(I have pre-drilled the holes) then each one puts the parts together solders them in place, and hopefully after a couple of evenings working as a group, each member will go home with a "working" model of a dual flashing light.
Pray for me for Wednesday night, that all goes well.. This is the first clinic I have done on this subject.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: sailingto
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:02 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
Ken H>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by sailingto
Understood Harvey, this is more of a "one time deal" -
Harvey - you are a GREAT guy doing all this work for the group. Model railroading has always amazed me how much effort folks put into it - whole rooms are dedicated to the project.... come to think of it, a whole room (and more) is dedicated to my ham radio :)
Have fun and GOOD LUCK with the project.
73 de Ken H>
Harvey - you are a GREAT guy doing all this work for the group. Model railroading has always amazed me how much effort folks put into it - whole rooms are dedicated to the project.... come to think of it, a whole room (and more) is dedicated to my ham radio :)
Have fun and GOOD LUCK with the project.
73 de Ken H>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by idbruce
Okay this is my first post. After trying several different methods with undesirable results, I finally tried something I read about on someone elses post elsewhere. For those of you who have a table saw, try using a metal cutting abrasive blade. After cutting pcb, use fine file to remove excess debris. This method worked well for me with satisfactory results. However I am thinking of creating a miniature table saw that uses a dremel rotary tool with a 545 Diamond Cutting Wheel. I believe this would be the perfect solution, but I have not tried it yet.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by rlspell2000
This seems to work pretty good...
http://cgi.ebay.com/12-INCH-BENCH-METAL-SHEAR-CUT-ROUND-1-2-CUT-PLATE-1-8-/310195137016
For trimming notches, etc, I use the metal band saw.
http://cgi.ebay.com/12-INCH-BENCH-METAL-SHEAR-CUT-ROUND-1-2-CUT-PLATE-1-8-/310195137016
For trimming notches, etc, I use the metal band saw.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by sailingto
Over $200 but it would cut thick PCB for sure. It would have the same problem as the HF paper cutter I linked to, thin strips cut off would tend to curl.
Ken
Ken
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Frank P
$13 is more in my budget than a table saw. ;-)
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> I use a HF paper cutter - this is the one I use:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-x-9-3-4-quarter-inch-paper-cutter-9805.html
>
> I move the PCB out to mid ways and it cuts pretty good up to .062", but the .032" is better. I wish I had got this one - it's larger and - I think it would have cut the .062" with less pressure:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-x-15-inch-paper-cutter-90874.html
>
> This cuts about as well as anything going - MUCH less hassle than saws and such like. The shear listed before would be my choice, BUT for nearly $400 vs $13...... Hard choice.... well, maybe not.
>
> Ken H>
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Frank P
Harvey,
On one webpage, I saw a person cutting perf board with a dremel fitted with a cutting wheel and placed in a vise. The dremel was mounted horizontally so the blade was vertical.
This might be a feasible approach, but the cutting was done free hand. I think a jig formed like a tablesaw to support the PCB board would be a better solution.
But, of course, there must be a more efficient way.... ?
On one webpage, I saw a person cutting perf board with a dremel fitted with a cutting wheel and placed in a vise. The dremel was mounted horizontally so the blade was vertical.
This might be a feasible approach, but the cutting was done free hand. I think a jig formed like a tablesaw to support the PCB board would be a better solution.
But, of course, there must be a more efficient way.... ?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> I just required 20 (1 x 1.5 inch) PC Boards. I fully polished the larger piece....I have a regular size table saw, which I put the finest blade that I own in place. I set the 1 inch guide, took a piece of 1/8th masonite and cut through this to make a new base.... I now cut all my 1 inch strips.... Reset the guide for 1.5 inch and cut the strips into 1 1/2 pieces. The edges were a little rough but I just run them past my grinding wheel to take the corner off. I cut these with the copper clad side facing up.....I think my next attempt will be copper side down. In fact my last couple of cuts I made face down and they were not near as rough.
>
> Carefull on the fingers, I realize I am working very close to that saw blade.. Remember fingers cut even better than a PC Board.. They even leave more of a mess..
>
> I too am watching these answers, as I am open to suggestions for a better way than what I have..
>
> Cheers.
>
> Harvey L. McRae
> 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
>
> Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank P
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 12:45 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>
>
>
> Studleylee,
> Thanks for your input but you solutions seem a bit pricey. There must be another way.... ?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "studleylee" <indigo_red@> wrote:
> >
> > I use a harbor freight shear/bend/roll thing that I shimmed to have
> > a steeper cutting angle.
> >
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
> >
> > if you wait for sales, I got mine for about $380
> >
> > smaller version:
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-bench-top-shear-brake-90757.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Frank P
I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>
> Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
>
> Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
>
> If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
>
> In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
>
> Ken H>
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Stefan Trethan
Yes they do.
Proxxon also makes small circular saws.
A saw like this with a carbide blade produces the cleanest cuts of all
the tools I tried.
However it is so loud, and a dust hazard, I prefer to use the lever shear.
ST
Proxxon also makes small circular saws.
A saw like this with a carbide blade produces the cleanest cuts of all
the tools I tried.
However it is so loud, and a dust hazard, I prefer to use the lever shear.
ST
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Frank P <qz9090@...> wrote:
> I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Ian
Unfortunately, I don't have one at the present to test with but I would think that a band saw would yield better (cleaner) results and would be much safer than a table saw. Home Depot sells a small 9" model for $119 that would be perfect for this task.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Ian
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Ian
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@> wrote:
> >
> > Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
> >
> > Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
> >
> > If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
> >
> > In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
> >
> > Ken H>
> >
>
RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Henry Liu
p
Sent from my HTC Touch Pro2 on the Now Network from Sprint�.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank P <qz9090@...>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:53 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
"sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial
offering.
Sent from my HTC Touch Pro2 on the Now Network from Sprint�.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank P <qz9090@...>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:53 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
"sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
> Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well
>off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
> Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut
>- being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
> If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself
>table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I
> In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny
needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial
offering.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Ken H>
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Harvey McRae
Thanks Frank for that suggestion...The dremel works fine for cutting one little piece.. Where I needed 20 i needed a faster proceedure.. I have been there and done that, as the saying goes for the dremel route.
Any suggestion is a good suggestion as you never know what the person on the other end has tried..
Thanks again.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Phone - 250-765-1000
Harvey's Cell - 250-808-4466
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
Any suggestion is a good suggestion as you never know what the person on the other end has tried..
Thanks again.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Phone - 250-765-1000
Harvey's Cell - 250-808-4466
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank P
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
Harvey,
On one webpage, I saw a person cutting perf board with a dremel fitted with a cutting wheel and placed in a vise. The dremel was mounted horizontally so the blade was vertical.
This might be a feasible approach, but the cutting was done free hand. I think a jig formed like a tablesaw to support the PCB board would be a better solution.
But, of course, there must be a more efficient way.... ?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> I just required 20 (1 x 1.5 inch) PC Boards. I fully polished the larger piece....I have a regular size table saw, which I put the finest blade that I own in place. I set the 1 inch guide, took a piece of 1/8th masonite and cut through this to make a new base.... I now cut all my 1 inch strips.... Reset the guide for 1.5 inch and cut the strips into 1 1/2 pieces. The edges were a little rough but I just run them past my grinding wheel to take the corner off. I cut these with the copper clad side facing up.....I think my next attempt will be copper side down. In fact my last couple of cuts I made face down and they were not near as rough.
>
> Carefull on the fingers, I realize I am working very close to that saw blade.. Remember fingers cut even better than a PC Board.. They even leave more of a mess..
>
> I too am watching these answers, as I am open to suggestions for a better way than what I have..
>
> Cheers.
>
> Harvey L. McRae
> 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
>
> Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank P
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 12:45 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>
>
>
> Studleylee,
> Thanks for your input but you solutions seem a bit pricey. There must be another way.... ?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "studleylee" <indigo_red@> wrote:
> >
> > I use a harbor freight shear/bend/roll thing that I shimmed to have
> > a steeper cutting angle.
> >
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
> >
> > if you wait for sales, I got mine for about $380
> >
> > smaller version:
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-bench-top-shear-brake-90757.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-10 by Harvey McRae
Before you build your mini table saw, cut a few pieces by hand with the dremel.. I find that unless I'm running the Dremel tool at near top speed, it lacks on the power supply.. I don't think you would have enough power to do much cutting.
Also doesn't Dremel have a little table saw attachment.? I think they do.
Cheers.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Phone - 250-765-1000
Harvey's Cell - 250-808-4466
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
Also doesn't Dremel have a little table saw attachment.? I think they do.
Cheers.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Phone - 250-765-1000
Harvey's Cell - 250-808-4466
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: idbruce
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 6:29 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
Okay this is my first post. After trying several different methods with undesirable results, I finally tried something I read about on someone elses post elsewhere. For those of you who have a table saw, try using a metal cutting abrasive blade. After cutting pcb, use fine file to remove excess debris. This method worked well for me with satisfactory results. However I am thinking of creating a miniature table saw that uses a dremel rotary tool with a 545 Diamond Cutting Wheel. I believe this would be the perfect solution, but I have not tried it yet.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by James
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>I use a few different methods. When I have time, I go to my friend's machine shop and use the sheetmetal shear, obviously this isn't an option for everybody. I've also used a utility knife with a straightedge to score the board about halfway through then snap it off and sand the edge smooth. When I'm making a small cut, I clamp the PCB between two scraps of wood in a vise and use a hacksaw guided by the wood to make a straight cut. This also requires a bit of sanding to true up the edge.
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by grantfair2001
I use tin snips. The kind used to make straight cuts. I've seen them for $10.00. See:
http://www.princessauto.com/tools/hand-tools/cutting-tools/8043903-10-tin-snips?keyword=tin+snip
For larger cuts I use a sheet metal shear.I got mine for about $100 at Princess Auto (in Canada). Here's a a picture:
http://www.princessauto.com/shop-garage/fabrication-equipment/metal-benders-accessories/8096000-12-metal-hand-shear?keyword=shear
I thoght Harbor Freight would have the same or similiar items but I did not find them when I searched their websites. Maybe their straight cut aviation snips will work, but I have only used the kind shown above.
Long cuts with the snips are possible, just keep the cut edge of the pcb aligned with the snip blade. Don't cut all the way to the end of the snip as it may rip/damage the pcb.
Grant
http://www.princessauto.com/tools/hand-tools/cutting-tools/8043903-10-tin-snips?keyword=tin+snip
For larger cuts I use a sheet metal shear.I got mine for about $100 at Princess Auto (in Canada). Here's a a picture:
http://www.princessauto.com/shop-garage/fabrication-equipment/metal-benders-accessories/8096000-12-metal-hand-shear?keyword=shear
I thoght Harbor Freight would have the same or similiar items but I did not find them when I searched their websites. Maybe their straight cut aviation snips will work, but I have only used the kind shown above.
Long cuts with the snips are possible, just keep the cut edge of the pcb aligned with the snip blade. Don't cut all the way to the end of the snip as it may rip/damage the pcb.
Grant
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by Andrew
No, not really. The problem with that Ryobi is that it is designed for cutting wood, which means that the blade speed will be relatively high. This will tend to kill the blade very quickly, as it heats up due to friction, then loses its temper, then loses its teeth. This is the sort of saw that gives bandsaws a bad name for eating up blades when cutting PCB.
Much better are the saws designed for cutting metal, which move the blade about 1/10 the speed of a wood cutting saw. Along with a fine-tooth metal-cutting blade, you can cut PCB all day long without eating up the blade. Here's what you really need:
http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html
Much better are the saws designed for cutting metal, which move the blade about 1/10 the speed of a wood cutting saw. Along with a fine-tooth metal-cutting blade, you can cut PCB all day long without eating up the blade. Here's what you really need:
http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have one at the present to test with but I would think that a band saw would yield better (cleaner) results and would be much safer than a table saw. Home Depot sells a small 9" model for $119 that would be perfect for this task.
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
> Ian
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
> > >
> > > Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
> > >
> > > If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
> > >
> > > In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
> > >
> > > Ken H>
> > >
> >
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by bebx2000
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/25400
Baxter
>Try a 4" diamond saw ...
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/25400
Baxter
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by James
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <ian@...> wrote:
>Can you get carbide tipped blades for it? FR4 PCB is murder on saw blades, you need something really hard or it will dull very quickly.
> Unfortunately, I don't have one at the present to test with but I would think that a band saw would yield better (cleaner) results and would be much safer than a table saw. Home Depot sells a small 9" model for $119 that would be perfect for this task.
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
> Ian
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by Harvey McRae
Now you have given me a new idea.......Try a 4" diamond saw ...I have one of these wet saws in my shop but never thought to try that avenue. I have the blade that litterly has no teeth, that cuts through cement brick and blocks. Soon as I get to my next cutting project that is what I will try..
Thanks for the tip.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
Thanks for the tip.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: bebx2000
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Try a 4" diamond saw ...
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/25400
Baxter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by Frank P
Ian,
Its a little hard to see from the pictures, how big is it? At $119, I would imagine its a tabletop unit.
Its a little hard to see from the pictures, how big is it? At $119, I would imagine its a tabletop unit.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have one at the present to test with but I would think that a band saw would yield better (cleaner) results and would be much safer than a table saw. Home Depot sells a small 9" model for $119 that would be perfect for this task.
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
> Ian
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
> > >
> > > Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
> > >
> > > If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
> > >
> > > In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
> > >
> > > Ken H>
> > >
> >
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by Frank P
Harvey,
Thanks for your input.
Some of the more elaborate solutions (table saw, band saw, etc.) seem like a bit "over-kill" for me, if I am only making a PCB once in awhile.
I believe Ian suggested using a 545 Diamond Cutting bit with a Dremel tool.
If I needed a large quantity, I would agree with you, i.e. outsource it. Of course, that leads to another question, who do you order them from? ...but, I think that is another thread of discussion.
Thanks for your input.
Some of the more elaborate solutions (table saw, band saw, etc.) seem like a bit "over-kill" for me, if I am only making a PCB once in awhile.
I believe Ian suggested using a 545 Diamond Cutting bit with a Dremel tool.
If I needed a large quantity, I would agree with you, i.e. outsource it. Of course, that leads to another question, who do you order them from? ...but, I think that is another thread of discussion.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> Before you build your mini table saw, cut a few pieces by hand with the dremel.. I find that unless I'm running the Dremel tool at near top speed, it lacks on the power supply.. I don't think you would have enough power to do much cutting.
>
> Also doesn't Dremel have a little table saw attachment.? I think they do.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Harvey L. McRae
> 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
> Phone - 250-765-1000
> Harvey's Cell - 250-808-4466
> Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: idbruce
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 6:29 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>
>
>
>
>
> Okay this is my first post. After trying several different methods with undesirable results, I finally tried something I read about on someone elses post elsewhere. For those of you who have a table saw, try using a metal cutting abrasive blade. After cutting pcb, use fine file to remove excess debris. This method worked well for me with satisfactory results. However I am thinking of creating a miniature table saw that uses a dremel rotary tool with a 545 Diamond Cutting Wheel. I believe this would be the perfect solution, but I have not tried it yet.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by Frank P
So I decided to do some more research on the Internet on this subject and look what I found!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
Cheap and easy....but I wonder if it would work on copper clad...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
Cheap and easy....but I wonder if it would work on copper clad...?
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>
> Thanks.
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-11 by Harvey McRae
I checked the Dremel Catalogue, they have a router table but i do not see a table for a saw. There is a little saw guide, but I don't think it would be of any value in cutting small items.
Cheers.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
Cheers.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Rd.,
Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank P
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:35 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
Harvey,
Thanks for your input.
Some of the more elaborate solutions (table saw, band saw, etc.) seem like a bit "over-kill" for me, if I am only making a PCB once in awhile.
I believe Ian suggested using a 545 Diamond Cutting bit with a Dremel tool.
If I needed a large quantity, I would agree with you, i.e. outsource it. Of course, that leads to another question, who do you order them from? ...but, I think that is another thread of discussion.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> Before you build your mini table saw, cut a few pieces by hand with the dremel.. I find that unless I'm running the Dremel tool at near top speed, it lacks on the power supply.. I don't think you would have enough power to do much cutting.
>
> Also doesn't Dremel have a little table saw attachment.? I think they do.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Harvey L. McRae
> 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
> Phone - 250-765-1000
> Harvey's Cell - 250-808-4466
> Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: idbruce
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 6:29 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>
>
>
>
>
> Okay this is my first post. After trying several different methods with undesirable results, I finally tried something I read about on someone elses post elsewhere. For those of you who have a table saw, try using a metal cutting abrasive blade. After cutting pcb, use fine file to remove excess debris. This method worked well for me with satisfactory results. However I am thinking of creating a miniature table saw that uses a dremel rotary tool with a 545 Diamond Cutting Wheel. I believe this would be the perfect solution, but I have not tried it yet.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-12 by Eddie Stassen
The subject of cutting pcb's seems to pop up frequently and probably
should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
relatively simple problem. Unless you are running a production setup or
have lots of money to throw at an expensive shear, there is no reason to
run to power tools for the solution. Since the vast majority of pcb cuts
are straight, the score and snap method a still in my mind the best
method - cheap, safe, easy on the tools, lungs and ears and little
wasted material. The cuts come out fairly clean and a few swipes across
a sheet of 150 grit sandpaper is usually enough for a very smooth edge.
You can see the process in the first part if this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU. The tool is a carbide tipped
laminate cutter you can probably pick up at any hardware store, although
a glass cutter or even a sharp blade could possible also be used in a pinch.
For the occasional board that requires cutouts a mini hacksaw and a file
does the trick.
Just my 2c
Eddie
Frank P wrote:
should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
relatively simple problem. Unless you are running a production setup or
have lots of money to throw at an expensive shear, there is no reason to
run to power tools for the solution. Since the vast majority of pcb cuts
are straight, the score and snap method a still in my mind the best
method - cheap, safe, easy on the tools, lungs and ears and little
wasted material. The cuts come out fairly clean and a few swipes across
a sheet of 150 grit sandpaper is usually enough for a very smooth edge.
You can see the process in the first part if this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU. The tool is a carbide tipped
laminate cutter you can probably pick up at any hardware store, although
a glass cutter or even a sharp blade could possible also be used in a pinch.
For the occasional board that requires cutouts a mini hacksaw and a file
does the trick.
Just my 2c
Eddie
Frank P wrote:
>
> So I decided to do some more research on the Internet on this subject
> and look what I found!!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4>
>
> Cheap and easy....but I wonder if it would work on copper clad...?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
> >
> > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner
> transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
>
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-12 by Piers Goodhew
Wandering a little off-topic, but I'll keep it brief.
One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it, is the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range of topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
PG
One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it, is the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range of topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
PG
On 12/05/2010, at 6:02 PM, Eddie Stassen wrote:
> The subject of cutting pcb's seems to pop up frequently and probably
> should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
> by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-12 by Andrew Villeneuve
I agree, and I like that about this group. There's plenty of advise, but
nobody assumes you're doing it wrong if you're not using their method.
-Andrew
nobody assumes you're doing it wrong if you're not using their method.
-Andrew
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
>
>
> Wandering a little off-topic, but I'll keep it brief.
>
> One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it, is
> the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to
> TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they
> all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
>
> The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range of
> topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
>
> PG
>
> On 12/05/2010, at 6:02 PM, Eddie Stassen wrote:
>
> > The subject of cutting pcb's seems to pop up frequently and probably
> > should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
> > by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-12 by jamesmichaelnewton
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
>I experienced the same thing when I started reading! I couldn't keep all the different ideas straight in my head so I started building a wiki to organize it all. It's not totally complete, but it is a good start and has most of the common ideas. Please feel free to use the little form at the bottom of each page to contribute your ideas, or register and then "make this page YOURS!" to become a page editor if you like.
> Wandering a little off-topic, but I'll keep it brief.
>
> One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it, is the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
>
> The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range of topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
>
> PG
http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-12 by Frank P
Eddie,
Scoring sounds easy but if you're trying to cut a 2 by 3 inch piece from a 8 by 10, I would think the corners might create some difficulties.
This guy uses a hack saw and gets decent results...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUNmgFct1o&feature=related
Scoring sounds easy but if you're trying to cut a 2 by 3 inch piece from a 8 by 10, I would think the corners might create some difficulties.
This guy uses a hack saw and gets decent results...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUNmgFct1o&feature=related
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Stassen <eddie@...> wrote:
>
> The subject of cutting pcb's seems to pop up frequently and probably
> should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
> by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
> relatively simple problem. Unless you are running a production setup or
> have lots of money to throw at an expensive shear, there is no reason to
> run to power tools for the solution. Since the vast majority of pcb cuts
> are straight, the score and snap method a still in my mind the best
> method - cheap, safe, easy on the tools, lungs and ears and little
> wasted material. The cuts come out fairly clean and a few swipes across
> a sheet of 150 grit sandpaper is usually enough for a very smooth edge.
> You can see the process in the first part if this video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU. The tool is a carbide tipped
> laminate cutter you can probably pick up at any hardware store, although
> a glass cutter or even a sharp blade could possible also be used in a pinch.
>
> For the occasional board that requires cutouts a mini hacksaw and a file
> does the trick.
>
> Just my 2c
> Eddie
>
> Frank P wrote:
> >
> > So I decided to do some more research on the Internet on this subject
> > and look what I found!!
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4>
> >
> > Cheap and easy....but I wonder if it would work on copper clad...?
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner
> > transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
> >
>
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-12 by James
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
>There's so many methods that work with no clear winner as to what is "best". The important part is that you get acceptable boards. I experimented over time until I managed to get good consistent results with the smallest effort and lowest cost and have continued to refine, but it's far from the only way to do it.
> I agree, and I like that about this group. There's plenty of advise, but
> nobody assumes you're doing it wrong if you're not using their method.
>
> -Andrew
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Piers Goodhew
I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a lot of
wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think you
need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
But continuing to think aloud, we seem to have less than 10 general topics,
a page with a bit of a summary and then a URL that finds recent messages
might be a workable solution.
E.g. Really roughly:
*Cutting PCB*
Methods include Score & Snap, shears and band/rotary saws (using the more
fine/metal cutting blades). Small PCB's can be effectively cut using score
and snap, or tinsnips (if smaller than the blade length). Larger boards can
be cut with larger shears among others. [mention commonly tried things that
don't work well?]
Search for forum posts mentioning "cutting PCB":
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/msearch?query=pcb+cutting&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
But it works fairly well now: a newbie turns up, asks the same question, 10
well thought out answers arrive, several of them completely novel.
PG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:44 AM, jamesmichaelnewton <
jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think you
need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
But continuing to think aloud, we seem to have less than 10 general topics,
a page with a bit of a summary and then a URL that finds recent messages
might be a workable solution.
E.g. Really roughly:
*Cutting PCB*
Methods include Score & Snap, shears and band/rotary saws (using the more
fine/metal cutting blades). Small PCB's can be effectively cut using score
and snap, or tinsnips (if smaller than the blade length). Larger boards can
be cut with larger shears among others. [mention commonly tried things that
don't work well?]
Search for forum posts mentioning "cutting PCB":
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/msearch?query=pcb+cutting&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
But it works fairly well now: a newbie turns up, asks the same question, 10
well thought out answers arrive, several of them completely novel.
PG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:44 AM, jamesmichaelnewton <
jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wandering a little off-topic, but I'll keep it brief.
> >
> > One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it,
> is the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to
> TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they
> all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
> >
> > The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range
> of topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
> >
> > PG
>
> I experienced the same thing when I started reading! I couldn't keep all
> the different ideas straight in my head so I started building a wiki to
> organize it all. It's not totally complete, but it is a good start and has
> most of the common ideas. Please feel free to use the little form at the
> bottom of each page to contribute your ideas, or register and then "make
> this page YOURS!" to become a page editor if you like.
>
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
>
>
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by John McCormick
Ya I agree no offense but that massmind website is terrible.
There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting: http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/
It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage but I'm not an expert by any means.
There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting: http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/
It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage but I'm not an expert by any means.
--- On Thu, 5/13/10, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
From: Piers Goodhew <piers@...>
Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:34 AM
I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a lot of
wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think you
need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
But continuing to think aloud, we seem to have less than 10 general topics,
a page with a bit of a summary and then a URL that finds recent messages
might be a workable solution.
E.g. Really roughly:
*Cutting PCB*
Methods include Score & Snap, shears and band/rotary saws (using the more
fine/metal cutting blades). Small PCB's can be effectively cut using score
and snap, or tinsnips (if smaller than the blade length). Larger boards can
be cut with larger shears among others. [mention commonly tried things that
don't work well?]
Search for forum posts mentioning "cutting PCB":
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/msearch?query=pcb+cutting&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
But it works fairly well now: a newbie turns up, asks the same question, 10
well thought out answers arrive, several of them completely novel.
PG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:44 AM, jamesmichaelnewton <
jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wandering a little off-topic, but I'll keep it brief.
> >
> > One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it,
> is the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to
> TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they
> all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
> >
> > The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range
> of topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
> >
> > PG
>
> I experienced the same thing when I started reading! I couldn't keep all
> the different ideas straight in my head so I started building a wiki to
> organize it all. It's not totally complete, but it is a good start and has
> most of the common ideas. Please feel free to use the little form at the
> bottom of each page to contribute your ideas, or register and then "make
> this page YOURS!" to become a page editor if you like.
>
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Eddie Stassen
Frank P wrote:
is what I would nornally do), or otherwise cut a 2 inch notch first with
some other means e.g. hacksaw and them score and snap along the 3" side.
>Agreed, you would either have to cut a 2x8 inch strip off first (which
> Eddie,
> Scoring sounds easy but if you're trying to cut a 2 by 3 inch piece
> from a 8 by 10, I would think the corners might create some difficulties.
>
is what I would nornally do), or otherwise cut a 2 inch notch first with
some other means e.g. hacksaw and them score and snap along the 3" side.
>
>
> This guy uses a hack saw and gets decent results...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUNmgFct1o&feature=related
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUNmgFct1o&feature=related>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Eddie Stassen <eddie@...> wrote:
> >
> > The subject of cutting pcb's seems to pop up frequently and probably
> > should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
> > by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
> > relatively simple problem. Unless you are running a production setup or
> > have lots of money to throw at an expensive shear, there is no
> reason to
> > run to power tools for the solution. Since the vast majority of pcb
> cuts
> > are straight, the score and snap method a still in my mind the best
> > method - cheap, safe, easy on the tools, lungs and ears and little
> > wasted material. The cuts come out fairly clean and a few swipes across
> > a sheet of 150 grit sandpaper is usually enough for a very smooth edge.
> > You can see the process in the first part if this video:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU.
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU.> The tool is a carbide
> tipped
> > laminate cutter you can probably pick up at any hardware store,
> although
> > a glass cutter or even a sharp blade could possible also be used in
> a pinch.
> >
> > For the occasional board that requires cutouts a mini hacksaw and a
> file
> > does the trick.
> >
> > Just my 2c
> > Eddie
> >
> > Frank P wrote:
> > >
> > > So I decided to do some more research on the Internet on this subject
> > > and look what I found!!
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4>
> > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4>>
> > >
> > > Cheap and easy....but I wonder if it would work on copper clad...?
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner
> > > transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by jamesmichaelnewton
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John McCormick <mcjonster@...> wrote:
If you wanted to be a page editor, you would actually have to learn HTML. REAL HTML! That arcane "programming language" that people must go to school for years to understand. Instead of auto linking random words, you would actually have to type <a href="lcds.htm">lcd</a> so don't bother, start a wiki yourself instead.
In fact, I doubt I will anymore.
--
James.
>Seriously? It's more important to you that the site be pretty than that it have relevant content? wow... whatever...
> Ya I agree no offense but that massmind website is terrible.
>
> There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
> Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting: http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/The reason why that site has ads is that the ads pay for someone to maintain it. That's why it exists. There are very few saints in the engineering world. It makes just enough from those ads to pay my hosting bill and for the time I spend maintaining it.
>
> It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
> I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage but I'm not an expert by any means.And yet you feel qualified to slam my efforts. Thanks.
> --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:Nope, your right, it's a pile of shit. Just read above. But it's a pile of shit that works and has most of the /content/ and actual information that are important on it. To post something you would have to actually type or paste in your text, copy in the URL you wanted to reference (if there is one) and then depend on a human page editor (me) to link things and edit the page if it needed it. The horror!
>
>
> From: Piers Goodhew <piers@...>
> Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:34 AM
>
>
> I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a lot of
> wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
> syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
If you wanted to be a page editor, you would actually have to learn HTML. REAL HTML! That arcane "programming language" that people must go to school for years to understand. Instead of auto linking random words, you would actually have to type <a href="lcds.htm">lcd</a> so don't bother, start a wiki yourself instead.
> The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think youYeah, I wonder why I bother.
> need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
> it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
In fact, I doubt I will anymore.
--
James.
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Stefan Trethan
I like simple HTML websites.
I understand the concept of ads and accept them as a way to keep free
information online.
You have paid me personally a nice sum of that ad money in exchange
for hosting some of my info about direct inkjet printing.
That said, I still have to concur with the previous critics that your
page has some very serious drawbacks. They are serious to the extent
that I did not feel inclined to discover the other, no doubt very
interesting, information located there.
Some points I wish to list individually:
* There doesn't appear to be any structure apart from a general
sorting into topics, which are often not well named.
* Topics make no attempt at all to be complete. Individual comments
about one thing or the other seem to make up the content. Even if no
detailed information is available at least there should be a list of
all the common options. It is like someone wants to explain how to
bake a cake, and all he talks about is how the icing is applied.
* It is hard to see where the content ends and the ads and navigation
elements start, because it is all one color and style.
I am sorry, to me it is confusing and disorganized. My reaction to
your site, in as few words as possible: "huh, what's that?".
It's sad that you want to quit now, because this could have been a
very good thing, but on the other hand I can't help but feel it was a
bit of a wasted effort to start with if the majority of people can't
get to grips with the website.
Consider this, you have set this site up, you know every nook and
cranny and it makes perfect sense to you. But we haven't. If you write
a page for other people they should be able to use it.
I hope you'll not dwell on the criticism too much, it's really not
meant in bad spirit.
I'd help with a FAQ or wiki, as long as I can get my head around it,
hosting/moderation is stable and long-term, and an effort is made to
somehow allow all the differing opinions about how to do things to
co-exist.
ST
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 5:37 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
<jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
I understand the concept of ads and accept them as a way to keep free
information online.
You have paid me personally a nice sum of that ad money in exchange
for hosting some of my info about direct inkjet printing.
That said, I still have to concur with the previous critics that your
page has some very serious drawbacks. They are serious to the extent
that I did not feel inclined to discover the other, no doubt very
interesting, information located there.
Some points I wish to list individually:
* There doesn't appear to be any structure apart from a general
sorting into topics, which are often not well named.
* Topics make no attempt at all to be complete. Individual comments
about one thing or the other seem to make up the content. Even if no
detailed information is available at least there should be a list of
all the common options. It is like someone wants to explain how to
bake a cake, and all he talks about is how the icing is applied.
* It is hard to see where the content ends and the ads and navigation
elements start, because it is all one color and style.
I am sorry, to me it is confusing and disorganized. My reaction to
your site, in as few words as possible: "huh, what's that?".
It's sad that you want to quit now, because this could have been a
very good thing, but on the other hand I can't help but feel it was a
bit of a wasted effort to start with if the majority of people can't
get to grips with the website.
Consider this, you have set this site up, you know every nook and
cranny and it makes perfect sense to you. But we haven't. If you write
a page for other people they should be able to use it.
I hope you'll not dwell on the criticism too much, it's really not
meant in bad spirit.
I'd help with a FAQ or wiki, as long as I can get my head around it,
hosting/moderation is stable and long-term, and an effort is made to
somehow allow all the differing opinions about how to do things to
co-exist.
ST
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 5:37 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
<jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John McCormick <mcjonster@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ya I agree no offense but that massmind website is terrible.
>>
>> There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
>
> Seriously? It's more important to you that the site be pretty than that it have relevant content? wow... whatever...
>
>
>> Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting: http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/
>>
>> It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
>
> The reason why that site has ads is that the ads pay for someone to maintain it. That's why it exists. There are very few saints in the engineering world. It makes just enough from those ads to pay my hosting bill and for the time I spend maintaining it.
>
>
>> I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage but I'm not an expert by any means.
>
>
> And yet you feel qualified to slam my efforts. Thanks.
>
>
>> --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Piers Goodhew <piers@...>
>> Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:34 AM
>>
>>
>> I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a lot of
>> wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
>> syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
>
> Nope, your right, it's a pile of shit. Just read above. But it's a pile of shit that works and has most of the /content/ and actual information that are important on it. To post something you would have to actually type or paste in your text, copy in the URL you wanted to reference (if there is one) and then depend on a human page editor (me) to link things and edit the page if it needed it. The horror!
>
> If you wanted to be a page editor, you would actually have to learn HTML. REAL HTML! That arcane "programming language" that people must go to school for years to understand. Instead of auto linking random words, you would actually have to type <a href="lcds.htm">lcd</a> so don't bother, start a wiki yourself instead.
>
>
>> The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think you
>> need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
>> it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
>
> Yeah, I wonder why I bother.
>
> In fact, I doubt I will anymore.
>
> --
> James.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by mcjonster
As I mentioned Google sites has a free wiki template that is very easy to edit and free hosting intended just for this sort of situation: http://sites.google.com/
It is easier than HTML and has the nice wiki format if you use their html wiki.
If you can start it up and share the password with the list moderator I'm sure you can add editors so it will be self sustaining without relying on someone else's personal webspace.
I find it easier to search this group using yahoo search than go to massmind so makes it basically worthless.
Again I would just cut and paste everything and be done with it but I don't want to rip off the copyright. It would be better for original authors to use it.
It is easier than HTML and has the nice wiki format if you use their html wiki.
If you can start it up and share the password with the list moderator I'm sure you can add editors so it will be self sustaining without relying on someone else's personal webspace.
I find it easier to search this group using yahoo search than go to massmind so makes it basically worthless.
Again I would just cut and paste everything and be done with it but I don't want to rip off the copyright. It would be better for original authors to use it.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> I like simple HTML websites.
>
> I understand the concept of ads and accept them as a way to keep free
> information online.
>
> You have paid me personally a nice sum of that ad money in exchange
> for hosting some of my info about direct inkjet printing.
>
> That said, I still have to concur with the previous critics that your
> page has some very serious drawbacks. They are serious to the extent
> that I did not feel inclined to discover the other, no doubt very
> interesting, information located there.
>
> Some points I wish to list individually:
>
> * There doesn't appear to be any structure apart from a general
> sorting into topics, which are often not well named.
>
> * Topics make no attempt at all to be complete. Individual comments
> about one thing or the other seem to make up the content. Even if no
> detailed information is available at least there should be a list of
> all the common options. It is like someone wants to explain how to
> bake a cake, and all he talks about is how the icing is applied.
>
> * It is hard to see where the content ends and the ads and navigation
> elements start, because it is all one color and style.
>
> I am sorry, to me it is confusing and disorganized. My reaction to
> your site, in as few words as possible: "huh, what's that?".
> It's sad that you want to quit now, because this could have been a
> very good thing, but on the other hand I can't help but feel it was a
> bit of a wasted effort to start with if the majority of people can't
> get to grips with the website.
>
> Consider this, you have set this site up, you know every nook and
> cranny and it makes perfect sense to you. But we haven't. If you write
> a page for other people they should be able to use it.
>
> I hope you'll not dwell on the criticism too much, it's really not
> meant in bad spirit.
>
>
>
>
> I'd help with a FAQ or wiki, as long as I can get my head around it,
> hosting/moderation is stable and long-term, and an effort is made to
> somehow allow all the differing opinions about how to do things to
> co-exist.
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 5:37 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
> <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John McCormick <mcjonster@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Ya I agree no offense but that massmind website is terrible.
> >>
> >> There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
> >
> > Seriously? It's more important to you that the site be pretty than that it have relevant content? wow... whatever...
> >
> >
> >> Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting: http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/
> >>
> >> It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
> >
> > The reason why that site has ads is that the ads pay for someone to maintain it. That's why it exists. There are very few saints in the engineering world. It makes just enough from those ads to pay my hosting bill and for the time I spend maintaining it.
> >
> >
> >> I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage but I'm not an expert by any means.
> >
> >
> > And yet you feel qualified to slam my efforts. Thanks.
> >
> >
> >> --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Piers Goodhew <piers@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Piers Goodhew <piers@>
> >> Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
> >> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >> Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:34 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a lot of
> >> wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
> >> syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
> >
> > Nope, your right, it's a pile of shit. Just read above. But it's a pile of shit that works and has most of the /content/ and actual information that are important on it. To post something you would have to actually type or paste in your text, copy in the URL you wanted to reference (if there is one) and then depend on a human page editor (me) to link things and edit the page if it needed it. The horror!
> >
> > If you wanted to be a page editor, you would actually have to learn HTML. REAL HTML! That arcane "programming language" that people must go to school for years to understand. Instead of auto linking random words, you would actually have to type <a href="lcds.htm">lcd</a> so don't bother, start a wiki yourself instead.
> >
> >
> >> The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think you
> >> need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
> >> it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
> >
> > Yeah, I wonder why I bother.
> >
> > In fact, I doubt I will anymore.
> >
> > --
> > James.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Derward Myrick
I do not make many comments on anyones reply but this one I Feel that I must.
I do not think that any one put a gun to your head and made you look at his
site. As for the comment made by you about his site, ony statement, on your
comment would be much worse than what you said about his site.
Derward Myrick PE KD5WWI
I do not think that any one put a gun to your head and made you look at his
site. As for the comment made by you about his site, ony statement, on your
comment would be much worse than what you said about his site.
Derward Myrick PE KD5WWI
----- Original Message -----
From: John McCormick
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
Ya I agree no offense but that massmind website is terrible.
There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting: http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/
It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage but I'm not an expert by any means.
--- On Thu, 5/13/10, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
From: Piers Goodhew <piers@...>
Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:34 AM
I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a lot of
wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents, nice clean
syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think you
need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually doing
it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
But continuing to think aloud, we seem to have less than 10 general topics,
a page with a bit of a summary and then a URL that finds recent messages
might be a workable solution.
E.g. Really roughly:
*Cutting PCB*
Methods include Score & Snap, shears and band/rotary saws (using the more
fine/metal cutting blades). Small PCB's can be effectively cut using score
and snap, or tinsnips (if smaller than the blade length). Larger boards can
be cut with larger shears among others. [mention commonly tried things that
don't work well?]
Search for forum posts mentioning "cutting PCB":
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/msearch?query=pcb+cutting&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
But it works fairly well now: a newbie turns up, asks the same question, 10
well thought out answers arrive, several of them completely novel.
PG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:44 AM, jamesmichaelnewton <
jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wandering a little off-topic, but I'll keep it brief.
> >
> > One of the interesting things about this group, in my short time in it,
> is the almost complete lack of consensus - from CAD software to etchant, to
> TT/pos/neg/dry/wet, right down to the type of glue to use in a tank, they
> all get about 7 well-argued opinions pretty much covering the full spectrum.
> >
> > The lack of an FAQ or wiki or something and the relatively narrow range
> of topics used to puzzle me, but it's becoming clearer now.
> >
> > PG
>
> I experienced the same thing when I started reading! I couldn't keep all
> the different ideas straight in my head so I started building a wiki to
> organize it all. It's not totally complete, but it is a good start and has
> most of the common ideas. Please feel free to use the little form at the
> bottom of each page to contribute your ideas, or register and then "make
> this page YOURS!" to become a page editor if you like.
>
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Jack@coats.org
A FAQ should, IMHO, have some semblance of order.
Let me suggest...
Intro: A quick overview of what/why/where/who/when we like/use homebrewed PCBs.
Also, where to find the email discussion group (how to subscribe
and un-subscribe) and its archives.
Techniques:
Design/layout:
DIY by hand
software
'copy and paste' (using or modifying others designs)
Mechanical:
additive vs subtractive techniques
additive like via reprap, or laying down conductive
material on an insulating substrate
subtractive etching
other or combined methods?
Boards/materials used
material, its properties, including chemical and temprature
range/sensativity.
rigid
flexible
fiberglass
phenolic (sp)
others
single sided vs double sided
VIAs
rivets
wires through holes
plated through holes
Resist methods
drawing with resistive ink
manual
plotter
photo resist
inkjets
laser resist papers
laser resist on paper
laser direct on PCB
Etching
etchants
commerical
DIY
storage
dry
liquid
concentrate
reuse
disposal
nutralization
recycling
proper disposal methods (healthy and 'earth friendly')
Silk Screen & solder resist to cover non-soldered areas
Plating connections, include pro's, con's, relative pricing
gold
other
Holes
mounting
via's (see above)
component
drilling
by hand
cnc
Surface Mount compatable
Compliance
How to do things so that the files and resultant PCBs are viable
for regulatory agencies.
We want our FAQ users to understand their roll in making quality
products. Much of this
depends on where they are and use of the PCBs.
Suppliers
Group suppliers (discounts?)
commercial
list of commercial suppliers, generically what they sell,
their phone numbers and web sites, and general market area
(market areas are like North America, Europe, Asia,
Central Americal, Africa, Middle East, South Americal, Austraila,
New Zealand, etc, etc. Yes, I left a lot out, but this
is just a thought, please modify as appropriate)
Let me suggest...
Intro: A quick overview of what/why/where/who/when we like/use homebrewed PCBs.
Also, where to find the email discussion group (how to subscribe
and un-subscribe) and its archives.
Techniques:
Design/layout:
DIY by hand
software
'copy and paste' (using or modifying others designs)
Mechanical:
additive vs subtractive techniques
additive like via reprap, or laying down conductive
material on an insulating substrate
subtractive etching
other or combined methods?
Boards/materials used
material, its properties, including chemical and temprature
range/sensativity.
rigid
flexible
fiberglass
phenolic (sp)
others
single sided vs double sided
VIAs
rivets
wires through holes
plated through holes
Resist methods
drawing with resistive ink
manual
plotter
photo resist
inkjets
laser resist papers
laser resist on paper
laser direct on PCB
Etching
etchants
commerical
DIY
storage
dry
liquid
concentrate
reuse
disposal
nutralization
recycling
proper disposal methods (healthy and 'earth friendly')
Silk Screen & solder resist to cover non-soldered areas
Plating connections, include pro's, con's, relative pricing
gold
other
Holes
mounting
via's (see above)
component
drilling
by hand
cnc
Surface Mount compatable
Compliance
How to do things so that the files and resultant PCBs are viable
for regulatory agencies.
We want our FAQ users to understand their roll in making quality
products. Much of this
depends on where they are and use of the PCBs.
Suppliers
Group suppliers (discounts?)
commercial
list of commercial suppliers, generically what they sell,
their phone numbers and web sites, and general market area
(market areas are like North America, Europe, Asia,
Central Americal, Africa, Middle East, South Americal, Austraila,
New Zealand, etc, etc. Yes, I left a lot out, but this
is just a thought, please modify as appropriate)
><> ... JackWhatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Stefan Trethan
I think there are many good ideas in there.
I'd like to put my notes about toner transfer (especially creating a
laminator from used printer parts) and homemade drill stand somewhere.
I used to host them on my own site, but the webspace no longer exists.
Also I have a neat PCB holder for etching which I would like to
document some day. It allows clamping boards without getting dirty.
Four or five years ago I would have started the wiki, right now I
don't think I can muster the dedication, after all I only make a board
myself very rarely now, but I'd sure want to contribute, beats writing
the same thing over and over here.
ST
I'd like to put my notes about toner transfer (especially creating a
laminator from used printer parts) and homemade drill stand somewhere.
I used to host them on my own site, but the webspace no longer exists.
Also I have a neat PCB holder for etching which I would like to
document some day. It allows clamping boards without getting dirty.
Four or five years ago I would have started the wiki, right now I
don't think I can muster the dedication, after all I only make a board
myself very rarely now, but I'd sure want to contribute, beats writing
the same thing over and over here.
ST
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Jack@... <jack@...> wrote:
> A FAQ should, IMHO, have some semblance of order.
>
> Let me suggest...
>
> Intro: A quick overview of what/why/where/who/when we like/use homebrewed PCBs.
> Also, where to find the email discussion group (how to subscribe
> and un-subscribe) and its archives.
>
> Techniques:
> Design/layout:
> DIY by hand
> software
> 'copy and paste' (using or modifying others designs)
> Mechanical:
> additive vs subtractive techniques
> additive like via reprap, or laying down conductive
> material on an insulating substrate
> subtractive etching
> other or combined methods?
> Boards/materials used
> material, its properties, including chemical and temprature
> range/sensativity.
> rigid
> flexible
> fiberglass
> phenolic (sp)
> others
> single sided vs double sided
> VIAs
> rivets
> wires through holes
> plated through holes
> Resist methods
> drawing with resistive ink
> manual
> plotter
> photo resist
> inkjets
> laser resist papers
> laser resist on paper
> laser direct on PCB
>
> Etching
> etchants
> commerical
> DIY
> storage
> dry
> liquid
> concentrate
> reuse
> disposal
> nutralization
> recycling
> proper disposal methods (healthy and 'earth friendly')
>
> Silk Screen & solder resist to cover non-soldered areas
>
> Plating connections, include pro's, con's, relative pricing
> gold
> other
>
> Holes
> mounting
> via's (see above)
> component
> drilling
> by hand
> cnc
> Surface Mount compatable
>
> Compliance
> How to do things so that the files and resultant PCBs are viable
> for regulatory agencies.
> We want our FAQ users to understand their roll in making quality
> products. Much of this
> depends on where they are and use of the PCBs.
>
> Suppliers
> Group suppliers (discounts?)
> commercial
> list of commercial suppliers, generically what they sell,
> their phone numbers and web sites, and general market area
> (market areas are like North America, Europe, Asia,
> Central Americal, Africa, Middle East, South Americal, Austraila,
> New Zealand, etc, etc. Yes, I left a lot out, but this
> is just a thought, please modify as appropriate)
>
>><> ... Jack
> Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Sebastien Bailard
Hmmm ... you're welcome to use the RepRap wiki for all of that stuff. It's
more fun that way. :)
-Sebastien
more fun that way. :)
-Sebastien
On May 13, 2010 02:07:51 pm Stefan Trethan wrote:
> I think there are many good ideas in there.
>
> I'd like to put my notes about toner transfer (especially creating a
> laminator from used printer parts) and homemade drill stand somewhere.
> I used to host them on my own site, but the webspace no longer exists.
> Also I have a neat PCB holder for etching which I would like to
> document some day. It allows clamping boards without getting dirty.
>
> Four or five years ago I would have started the wiki, right now I
> don't think I can muster the dedication, after all I only make a board
> myself very rarely now, but I'd sure want to contribute, beats writing
> the same thing over and over here.
>
> ST
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Jack@... <jack@...> wrote:
> > A FAQ should, IMHO, have some semblance of order.
> >
> > Let me suggest...
> >
> > Intro: A quick overview of what/why/where/who/when we like/use homebrewed
> > PCBs. Also, where to find the email discussion group (how to subscribe
> > and un-subscribe) and its archives.
> >
> > Techniques:
> > Design/layout:
> > DIY by hand
> > software
> > 'copy and paste' (using or modifying others designs)
> > Mechanical:
> > additive vs subtractive techniques
> > additive like via reprap, or laying down conductive
> > material on an insulating substrate
> > subtractive etching
> > other or combined methods?
> > Boards/materials used
> > material, its properties, including chemical and temprature
> > range/sensativity.
> > rigid
> > flexible
> > fiberglass
> > phenolic (sp)
> > others
> > single sided vs double sided
> > VIAs
> > rivets
> > wires through holes
> > plated through holes
> > Resist methods
> > drawing with resistive ink
> > manual
> > plotter
> > photo resist
> > inkjets
> > laser resist papers
> > laser resist on paper
> > laser direct on PCB
> >
> > Etching
> > etchants
> > commerical
> > DIY
> > storage
> > dry
> > liquid
> > concentrate
> > reuse
> > disposal
> > nutralization
> > recycling
> > proper disposal methods (healthy and 'earth friendly')
> >
> > Silk Screen & solder resist to cover non-soldered areas
> >
> > Plating connections, include pro's, con's, relative pricing
> > gold
> > other
> >
> > Holes
> > mounting
> > via's (see above)
> > component
> > drilling
> > by hand
> > cnc
> > Surface Mount compatable
> >
> > Compliance
> > How to do things so that the files and resultant PCBs are viable
> > for regulatory agencies.
> > We want our FAQ users to understand their roll in making quality
> > products. Much of this
> > depends on where they are and use of the PCBs.
> >
> > Suppliers
> > Group suppliers (discounts?)
> > commercial
> > list of commercial suppliers, generically what they sell,
> > their phone numbers and web sites, and general market area
> > (market areas are like North America, Europe, Asia,
> > Central Americal, Africa, Middle East, South Americal, Austraila,
> > New Zealand, etc, etc. Yes, I left a lot out, but this
> > is just a thought, please modify as appropriate)
> >
> >><> ... Jack
> >
> > Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Jack@coats.org
The good thing with a wiki is that we should be able to have many
folks support it,
so the entire maintenance task doesn't have to go all on one persons shoulders.
But it does need some 'moderation' so we don't gather spam posts
folks support it,
so the entire maintenance task doesn't have to go all on one persons shoulders.
But it does need some 'moderation' so we don't gather spam posts
><> ... JackWhatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> I think there are many good ideas in there.
>
> I'd like to put my notes about toner transfer (especially creating a
> laminator from used printer parts) and homemade drill stand somewhere.
> I used to host them on my own site, but the webspace no longer exists.
> Also I have a neat PCB holder for etching which I would like to
> document some day. It allows clamping boards without getting dirty.
>
> Four or five years ago I would have started the wiki, right now I
> don't think I can muster the dedication, after all I only make a board
> myself very rarely now, but I'd sure want to contribute, beats writing
> the same thing over and over here.
>
> ST
>
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Jack@... <jack@...> wrote:
>> A FAQ should, IMHO, have some semblance of order.
>>
>> Let me suggest...
>>
>> Intro: A quick overview of what/why/where/who/when we like/use homebrewed PCBs.
>> Also, where to find the email discussion group (how to subscribe
>> and un-subscribe) and its archives.
>>
>> Techniques:
>> Design/layout:
>> DIY by hand
>> software
>> 'copy and paste' (using or modifying others designs)
>> Mechanical:
>> additive vs subtractive techniques
>> additive like via reprap, or laying down conductive
>> material on an insulating substrate
>> subtractive etching
>> other or combined methods?
>> Boards/materials used
>> material, its properties, including chemical and temprature
>> range/sensativity.
>> rigid
>> flexible
>> fiberglass
>> phenolic (sp)
>> others
>> single sided vs double sided
>> VIAs
>> rivets
>> wires through holes
>> plated through holes
>> Resist methods
>> drawing with resistive ink
>> manual
>> plotter
>> photo resist
>> inkjets
>> laser resist papers
>> laser resist on paper
>> laser direct on PCB
>>
>> Etching
>> etchants
>> commerical
>> DIY
>> storage
>> dry
>> liquid
>> concentrate
>> reuse
>> disposal
>> nutralization
>> recycling
>> proper disposal methods (healthy and 'earth friendly')
>>
>> Silk Screen & solder resist to cover non-soldered areas
>>
>> Plating connections, include pro's, con's, relative pricing
>> gold
>> other
>>
>> Holes
>> mounting
>> via's (see above)
>> component
>> drilling
>> by hand
>> cnc
>> Surface Mount compatable
>>
>> Compliance
>> How to do things so that the files and resultant PCBs are viable
>> for regulatory agencies.
>> We want our FAQ users to understand their roll in making quality
>> products. Much of this
>> depends on where they are and use of the PCBs.
>>
>> Suppliers
>> Group suppliers (discounts?)
>> commercial
>> list of commercial suppliers, generically what they sell,
>> their phone numbers and web sites, and general market area
>> (market areas are like North America, Europe, Asia,
>> Central Americal, Africa, Middle East, South Americal, Austraila,
>> New Zealand, etc, etc. Yes, I left a lot out, but this
>> is just a thought, please modify as appropriate)
>>
>>><> ... Jack
>> Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by jamesmichaelnewton
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm and then tell me what "structure" there should above and beyond what you see there? Specifically, what should I add?
Specifically, what topics are not well named?
You have time to slam my organization of the page and say I haven't named things well, but you don't have time to register, take the page, and fix it. or even to make specific suggestions to me so that I can incorporate them.
"It's bad" is not useful.
OH for god sake... what a pile of crap.
Does it occur to you that the ads might have value? That people advertise things that relate?
The ads I'm seeing on the page right now are for a CAD program, a design service and a PCB house that is specifically targeting the hobby user. Someone viewing that page might very well be interested in those things.
>This is exactly the sort of criticism that makes me nuts. Go look at
> I like simple HTML websites.
>
> I understand the concept of ads and accept them as a way to keep free
> information online.
>
> You have paid me personally a nice sum of that ad money in exchange
> for hosting some of my info about direct inkjet printing.
>
> That said, I still have to concur with the previous critics that your
> page has some very serious drawbacks. They are serious to the extent
> that I did not feel inclined to discover the other, no doubt very
> interesting, information located there.
>
> Some points I wish to list individually:
>
> * There doesn't appear to be any structure apart from a general
> sorting into topics, which are often not well named.
http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm and then tell me what "structure" there should above and beyond what you see there? Specifically, what should I add?
Specifically, what topics are not well named?
You have time to slam my organization of the page and say I haven't named things well, but you don't have time to register, take the page, and fix it. or even to make specific suggestions to me so that I can incorporate them.
"It's bad" is not useful.
> * Topics make no attempt at all to be complete. Individual commentsWhat? Sooo... if someone starts a wiki, and doesn't finish the entire thing in one whack, but just starts adding what is known and hopes for further content and assistance in the future, that makes the whole thing trash?
> about one thing or the other seem to make up the content. Even if no
> detailed information is available at least there should be a list of
> all the common options. It is like someone wants to explain how to
> bake a cake, and all he talks about is how the icing is applied.
OH for god sake... what a pile of crap.
> * It is hard to see where the content ends and the ads and navigationFirst off, they ARE a different style. The color, I agree, is the same. If you make them a different color, people don't look at them.
> elements start, because it is all one color and style.
Does it occur to you that the ads might have value? That people advertise things that relate?
The ads I'm seeing on the page right now are for a CAD program, a design service and a PCB house that is specifically targeting the hobby user. Someone viewing that page might very well be interested in those things.
> I am sorry, to me it is confusing and disorganized. My reaction toIt for damn sure is in a bad spirit and I'll tell you why: It would be one thing if you said: "You know, that site would be a lot better if you installed this style sheet on it, or if you set the font to X or the background to Y or if you added these categories or this outline or whatever" But you don't. You just say "it's bad" and you stop. You pretend to take time making a list, but the list also doesn't offer ANY advice on what to do to make it better.
> your site, in as few words as possible: "huh, what's that?".
> It's sad that you want to quit now, because this could have been a
> very good thing, but on the other hand I can't help but feel it was a
> bit of a wasted effort to start with if the majority of people can't
> get to grips with the website.
>
> Consider this, you have set this site up, you know every nook and
> cranny and it makes perfect sense to you. But we haven't. If you write
> a page for other people they should be able to use it.
>
> I hope you'll not dwell on the criticism too much, it's really not
> meant in bad spirit.
> I'd help with a FAQ or wiki, as long as I can get my head around it,Bull Shit. It's been there for years, you've been invited repeatedly, I'm always open to specific suggestions for improvements. You just want an excuse to do nothing.
> hosting/moderation is stable and long-term, and an effort is made to
> somehow allow all the differing opinions about how to do things to
> co-exist.
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-13 by Harvey & Betty McRae
I have tried the scoring method, but I must be doing something wrong, as
mine always break back under the copper cladding.
mine always break back under the copper cladding.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddie Stassen" <eddie@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
> Frank P wrote:
>>
>> Eddie,
>> Scoring sounds easy but if you're trying to cut a 2 by 3 inch piece
>> from a 8 by 10, I would think the corners might create some difficulties.
>>
> Agreed, you would either have to cut a 2x8 inch strip off first (which
> is what I would nornally do), or otherwise cut a 2 inch notch first with
> some other means e.g. hacksaw and them score and snap along the 3" side.
>>
>>
>> This guy uses a hack saw and gets decent results...
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUNmgFct1o&feature=related
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUNmgFct1o&feature=related>
>>
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Eddie Stassen <eddie@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > The subject of cutting pcb's seems to pop up frequently and probably
>> > should be addresses in a FAQ somewhere. I am always somewhat astounded
>> > by the number of expensive/complex solutions offered for such a
>> > relatively simple problem. Unless you are running a production setup or
>> > have lots of money to throw at an expensive shear, there is no
>> reason to
>> > run to power tools for the solution. Since the vast majority of pcb
>> cuts
>> > are straight, the score and snap method a still in my mind the best
>> > method - cheap, safe, easy on the tools, lungs and ears and little
>> > wasted material. The cuts come out fairly clean and a few swipes across
>> > a sheet of 150 grit sandpaper is usually enough for a very smooth edge.
>> > You can see the process in the first part if this video:
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU.
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1Uw-lI7BU.> The tool is a carbide
>> tipped
>> > laminate cutter you can probably pick up at any hardware store,
>> although
>> > a glass cutter or even a sharp blade could possible also be used in
>> a pinch.
>> >
>> > For the occasional board that requires cutouts a mini hacksaw and a
>> file
>> > does the trick.
>> >
>> > Just my 2c
>> > Eddie
>> >
>> > Frank P wrote:
>> > >
>> > > So I decided to do some more research on the Internet on this subject
>> > > and look what I found!!
>> > >
>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4>
>> > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Q_6-cRua4>>
>> > >
>> > > Cheap and easy....but I wonder if it would work on copper clad...?
>> > >
>> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > There has been a lot of discussion centered on the laser toner
>> > > transfer methods but how do you folks cut your copper clad sheets?
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Kerry Wentworth
jamesmichaelnewton wrote:
people complain that you used frozen strawberries. Well, I appreciate
your efforts. I think it's a very good start.
Kerry
> This is exactly the sort of criticism that makes me nuts.Amazing, isn't it? You make Strawberry Shortcake for everybody, and
people complain that you used frozen strawberries. Well, I appreciate
your efforts. I think it's a very good start.
Kerry
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Stefan Trethan
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:49 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
<jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
If you click the "holes" or "drill holes" you get the same scattered
comments about installing copper tubes as vias. That's not what I
understand as holes, or drilling holes, that's homebrew methods for
plating holes maybe. There isn't a bit of information about actually
making the holes.
the ads, or at least I might want to know I am reading a commercial ad
instead of the page content? The ones to the right are fine, but for
example the line inserted on top looks just the same as your links.
Maybe you should check your own copyright notice: "©2010 These pages
are served without commercial sponsorship".
Tricking people into clicking on ads is not commercial sponsorship?
You aren't interested to accept any criticism as maybe having a valid
point, but you want others to contribute to a flawed base.
This isn't something new, I had exactly the same thought when you
added the inkjet content years ago. I kept quiet and hoped the site
would improve, or maybe it was just me that didn't understand it, but
it didn't, and it isn't just me.
Anyway, now you know why I, and probably a few others, don't want to
actively contribute to your site. You've actually given me money to
host some stuff about inkjet printing, but you could have way more,
and all for free, if the environment was just a little more inviting.
Just look at the archive of this yahoo group too see how much people
will give.
ST
<jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
> Specifically, what topics are not well named?One example, Holes.
If you click the "holes" or "drill holes" you get the same scattered
comments about installing copper tubes as vias. That's not what I
understand as holes, or drilling holes, that's homebrew methods for
plating holes maybe. There isn't a bit of information about actually
making the holes.
> First off, they ARE a different style. The color, I agree, is the same. If you make them a different color, people don't look at them.Does it occur to you that I might not be interested to actually read
>
> Does it occur to you that the ads might have value? That people advertise things that relate?
>
the ads, or at least I might want to know I am reading a commercial ad
instead of the page content? The ones to the right are fine, but for
example the line inserted on top looks just the same as your links.
Maybe you should check your own copyright notice: "©2010 These pages
are served without commercial sponsorship".
Tricking people into clicking on ads is not commercial sponsorship?
You aren't interested to accept any criticism as maybe having a valid
point, but you want others to contribute to a flawed base.
This isn't something new, I had exactly the same thought when you
added the inkjet content years ago. I kept quiet and hoped the site
would improve, or maybe it was just me that didn't understand it, but
it didn't, and it isn't just me.
Anyway, now you know why I, and probably a few others, don't want to
actively contribute to your site. You've actually given me money to
host some stuff about inkjet printing, but you could have way more,
and all for free, if the environment was just a little more inviting.
Just look at the archive of this yahoo group too see how much people
will give.
ST
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Stefan Trethan
Same here.
I always thought they might use different PCB material than I tried.
Also there is the question about how deep one needs to score the boards?
ST
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Harvey & Betty McRae
<hlmcrae@...> wrote:
I always thought they might use different PCB material than I tried.
Also there is the question about how deep one needs to score the boards?
ST
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Harvey & Betty McRae
<hlmcrae@...> wrote:
> I have tried the scoring method, but I must be doing something wrong, as
> mine always break back under the copper cladding.
>
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Harvey & Betty McRae
I am a relatively new member.. I have enjoyed this site a great amount. I looked at another site, and I did not feel it was what I was wanting. I made a comment that a ceertain thread had been beaten to the ground, and I would like to see something else on the menu.. I was politely told that no one was twisting my arm to keep me on board, and if I was not happy then I should "Unsubscribe" which I did.
I feel this thread has been chewed, spit out, and rehashed far to long.. I say to you Stefan, no one is twisting your arm to stay with this group, and if you feel it is so worthless then follow the instructions that was given to me by the other group.
If your not that dissatisfied, that you want to leave the group, then shut up, sit down and quit making life misserable for the everyone else.
That's my thought on this thread.
Harvey ..
I feel this thread has been chewed, spit out, and rehashed far to long.. I say to you Stefan, no one is twisting your arm to stay with this group, and if you feel it is so worthless then follow the instructions that was given to me by the other group.
If your not that dissatisfied, that you want to leave the group, then shut up, sit down and quit making life misserable for the everyone else.
That's my thought on this thread.
Harvey ..
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Trethan
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:49 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
<jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
> Specifically, what topics are not well named?
One example, Holes.
If you click the "holes" or "drill holes" you get the same scattered
comments about installing copper tubes as vias. That's not what I
understand as holes, or drilling holes, that's homebrew methods for
plating holes maybe. There isn't a bit of information about actually
making the holes.
> First off, they ARE a different style. The color, I agree, is the same. If you make them a different color, people don't look at them.
>
> Does it occur to you that the ads might have value? That people advertise things that relate?
>
Does it occur to you that I might not be interested to actually read
the ads, or at least I might want to know I am reading a commercial ad
instead of the page content? The ones to the right are fine, but for
example the line inserted on top looks just the same as your links.
Maybe you should check your own copyright notice: "©2010 These pages
are served without commercial sponsorship".
Tricking people into clicking on ads is not commercial sponsorship?
You aren't interested to accept any criticism as maybe having a valid
point, but you want others to contribute to a flawed base.
This isn't something new, I had exactly the same thought when you
added the inkjet content years ago. I kept quiet and hoped the site
would improve, or maybe it was just me that didn't understand it, but
it didn't, and it isn't just me.
Anyway, now you know why I, and probably a few others, don't want to
actively contribute to your site. You've actually given me money to
host some stuff about inkjet printing, but you could have way more,
and all for free, if the environment was just a little more inviting.
Just look at the archive of this yahoo group too see how much people
will give.
ST
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Stefan Trethan
Harvey,
You should check again, we are not discussing this group, instead
<http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm>, made by James Newton.
This group is great, but no FAQ, nor should it attempt to be one. New
members are often confused by the great number of different methods
and topics, and the question "is there a FAQ" is regularly raised. I
agree that it would be valuable resource to point someone towards.
James mentioned that he runs a FAQ, which can be expanded by others as
needed. A discussion ensued about the style and framework of his site,
and some (including me) voiced their concerns with it and why they do
exactly as you suggest and stay away from it for now.
Anyway, I think the topic of a FAQ is still open. I hope someone sets
one up with which we can all live, so we can soon fill it up. Or maybe
James will feel inclined to make his more user friendly so more people
will contribute there.
ST
You should check again, we are not discussing this group, instead
<http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm>, made by James Newton.
This group is great, but no FAQ, nor should it attempt to be one. New
members are often confused by the great number of different methods
and topics, and the question "is there a FAQ" is regularly raised. I
agree that it would be valuable resource to point someone towards.
James mentioned that he runs a FAQ, which can be expanded by others as
needed. A discussion ensued about the style and framework of his site,
and some (including me) voiced their concerns with it and why they do
exactly as you suggest and stay away from it for now.
Anyway, I think the topic of a FAQ is still open. I hope someone sets
one up with which we can all live, so we can soon fill it up. Or maybe
James will feel inclined to make his more user friendly so more people
will contribute there.
ST
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Harvey & Betty McRae <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
> I am a relatively new member.. I have enjoyed this site a great amount. I looked at another site, and I did not feel it was what I was wanting. I made a comment that a ceertain thread had been beaten to the ground, and I would like to see something else on the menu.. I was politely told that no one was twisting my arm to keep me on board, and if I was not happy then I should "Unsubscribe" which I did.
>
> I feel this thread has been chewed, spit out, and rehashed far to long.. I say to you Stefan, no one is twisting your arm to stay with this group, and if you feel it is so worthless then follow the instructions that was given to me by the other group.
>
> If your not that dissatisfied, that you want to leave the group, then shut up, sit down and quit making life misserable for the everyone else.
>
> That's my thought on this thread.
>
> Harvey ..
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stefan Trethan
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:21 PM
> Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:49 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
> <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
> > Specifically, what topics are not well named?
>
> One example, Holes.
> If you click the "holes" or "drill holes" you get the same scattered
> comments about installing copper tubes as vias. That's not what I
> understand as holes, or drilling holes, that's homebrew methods for
> plating holes maybe. There isn't a bit of information about actually
> making the holes.
>
> > First off, they ARE a different style. The color, I agree, is the same. If you make them a different color, people don't look at them.
> >
> > Does it occur to you that the ads might have value? That people advertise things that relate?
> >
>
> Does it occur to you that I might not be interested to actually read
> the ads, or at least I might want to know I am reading a commercial ad
> instead of the page content? The ones to the right are fine, but for
> example the line inserted on top looks just the same as your links.
> Maybe you should check your own copyright notice: "©2010 These pages
> are served without commercial sponsorship".
> Tricking people into clicking on ads is not commercial sponsorship?
>
> You aren't interested to accept any criticism as maybe having a valid
> point, but you want others to contribute to a flawed base.
> This isn't something new, I had exactly the same thought when you
> added the inkjet content years ago. I kept quiet and hoped the site
> would improve, or maybe it was just me that didn't understand it, but
> it didn't, and it isn't just me.
>
> Anyway, now you know why I, and probably a few others, don't want to
> actively contribute to your site. You've actually given me money to
> host some stuff about inkjet printing, but you could have way more,
> and all for free, if the environment was just a little more inviting.
> Just look at the archive of this yahoo group too see how much people
> will give.
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Eddie Stassen
I use standard FR4 0.8 or 1.6mm s/s and d/s. I tend to apply a lot of
pressure and make 3 or 4 passes so I am through the copper and well into
the board. On the other side a bit less is needed, juts make sure you
are through the copper if double sided and have a decent scratch in the
board. I know thats not very scientific description, but you get a
'feel' for it after a few boards
I am not sure how well this works for other PCB types. I have some old
phenolic board and will give it a try.
Stefan Trethan wrote:
pressure and make 3 or 4 passes so I am through the copper and well into
the board. On the other side a bit less is needed, juts make sure you
are through the copper if double sided and have a decent scratch in the
board. I know thats not very scientific description, but you get a
'feel' for it after a few boards
I am not sure how well this works for other PCB types. I have some old
phenolic board and will give it a try.
Stefan Trethan wrote:
>
> Same here.
>
> I always thought they might use different PCB material than I tried.
> Also there is the question about how deep one needs to score the boards?
>
> ST
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Harvey & Betty McRae
> <hlmcrae@... <mailto:hlmcrae%40telus.net>> wrote:
> > I have tried the scoring method, but I must be doing something wrong, as
> > mine always break back under the copper cladding.
> >
>
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Leon Heller
On 14/05/2010 09:42, Eddie Stassen wrote:
quite a clean break. It only needs a bit of cleaning up with a file.
It's tough stuff, though. I don't use FR4 very often, FEC-1 is *much*
easier to cut.
Phenolic is easier.
Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM
> I use standard FR4 0.8 or 1.6mm s/s and d/s. I tend to apply a lot ofThat's what I do, as well. I put it in a vice to snap it, and I get
> pressure and make 3 or 4 passes so I am through the copper and well into
> the board. On the other side a bit less is needed, juts make sure you
> are through the copper if double sided and have a decent scratch in the
> board. I know thats not very scientific description, but you get a
> 'feel' for it after a few boards
>
> I am not sure how well this works for other PCB types. I have some old
> phenolic board and will give it a try.
quite a clean break. It only needs a bit of cleaning up with a file.
It's tough stuff, though. I don't use FR4 very often, FEC-1 is *much*
easier to cut.
Phenolic is easier.
Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Eddie Stassen
Leon Heller wrote:
I suspect phenolic, although soft, may have problems with
cracking/chipping.
> On 14/05/2010 09:42, Eddie Stassen wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but what is FEC-1?
>
>> I use standard FR4 0.8 or 1.6mm s/s and d/s. I tend to apply a lot of
>> pressure and make 3 or 4 passes so I am through the copper and well into
>> the board. On the other side a bit less is needed, juts make sure you
>> are through the copper if double sided and have a decent scratch in the
>> board. I know thats not very scientific description, but you get a
>> 'feel' for it after a few boards
>>
>> I am not sure how well this works for other PCB types. I have some old
>> phenolic board and will give it a try.
>>
>
>
> That's what I do, as well. I put it in a vice to snap it, and I get
> quite a clean break. It only needs a bit of cleaning up with a file.
> It's tough stuff, though. I don't use FR4 very often, FEC-1 is *much*
> easier to cut.
>
> Phenolic is easier.
>
> Leon
>
I suspect phenolic, although soft, may have problems with
cracking/chipping.
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Piers Goodhew
The thing about wikis is that, while they arguably turn you into a feeble-minded user who couldn't set the right DOCTYPE to save their life, they free you up to just work on content.
There are a few (not many) free wiki providers. No ads, no engineers to pay.
I've used "heavy" wikis like TWiki and MediaWiki, as well as "easy to use" ones like the Google one, and Apple's built-in-to-OSX one. The easy to use ones are a bit limiting, the heavy ones are a bit hard for less-experienced users.
www.wikia.com provides free wikis based on MediaWiki (which is what Wikipedia is built on). That'd be what I'd vote for - unless the Google stuff has changed a lot in the last year or so, it was pretty limited.
Here's one of many reasons wikis are nice: while writing an article (say on vias) you could make a link to [Plated Through Holes] - an article that doesn't exist, but obviously should. When anyone clicks that link, they're told "it doesn't exist, would you like to create it" and all they have to do is say "OK" and they're editing the page. They grow organically from the top down.
But ... we don't agree. We'd have to have very strict "don't delete opposing views" rules. Could all end in tears.
PG
There are a few (not many) free wiki providers. No ads, no engineers to pay.
I've used "heavy" wikis like TWiki and MediaWiki, as well as "easy to use" ones like the Google one, and Apple's built-in-to-OSX one. The easy to use ones are a bit limiting, the heavy ones are a bit hard for less-experienced users.
www.wikia.com provides free wikis based on MediaWiki (which is what Wikipedia is built on). That'd be what I'd vote for - unless the Google stuff has changed a lot in the last year or so, it was pretty limited.
Here's one of many reasons wikis are nice: while writing an article (say on vias) you could make a link to [Plated Through Holes] - an article that doesn't exist, but obviously should. When anyone clicks that link, they're told "it doesn't exist, would you like to create it" and all they have to do is say "OK" and they're editing the page. They grow organically from the top down.
But ... we don't agree. We'd have to have very strict "don't delete opposing views" rules. Could all end in tears.
PG
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by Leon Heller
On 14/05/2010 13:11, Eddie Stassen wrote:
It's a compressed paper/fibreglass composite. The fibreglass is very
thin, making it very easy to cut and drill. Mega Electronics sells it,
and Farnell sells something similar. The resist on the Mega Electronics
material comes away much easier during development.
It's also called FPC-16:
http://www.megauk.com/pcb_laminates.php
Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM
>Sorry, I meant CEM-1.
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is FEC-1?
>
> I suspect phenolic, although soft, may have problems with
> cracking/chipping.
It's a compressed paper/fibreglass composite. The fibreglass is very
thin, making it very easy to cut and drill. Mega Electronics sells it,
and Farnell sells something similar. The resist on the Mega Electronics
material comes away much easier during development.
It's also called FPC-16:
http://www.megauk.com/pcb_laminates.php
Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by jamesmichaelnewton
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
You said the topics were poorly named, then later said the content is incomplete. When I asked what topics were poorly named, you said the content of the holes page is incomplete.
Obviously, a major reason for holes is to connect layers; so the info on home made vias is very pertinent. Yes, there should be content on that page about drilling holes, but I haven't added it yet and you are not helping. If you (or anyone) has good content that overviews or links to examples of good ways to drill holes, please send it to me so I can put it up, or add it yourself.
I've paid for content many times in the past, and I would pay you again for this content, but I've burned up the money for this week in the time it has taken me to defend the site.
Perhaps when there is a significant amount of info on the page abound drilling holes, I, or anyone who cares to take over the page, will make a separate page on making vias and move the via content to it.
And I do appreciate the ONE bit of specific feedback you have provided on the content. I'll try to add some drill content as time allows. But you failed to defend your point on poor organization or topic naming, and you didn't reply to the point on content completeness.
I'm not sponsored by any commercial interest. No one pays me to publish one comment and remove or delete another. I'm not influenced by corporate spin. The "press and peel" people don't pay me and so influence me to remove the information I host on making your own release paper. The google ads allow me to just focus on the content and ignore the interests of the companies who choose to advertise.
I could say any number of nasty little things about your group or your leadership of it, but I've always been supportive of your decisions and your style, even when I didn't agree with it.
This is the last I'll say about this. It's too upsetting to me. Offer specific constructive suggestions or I will simply ignore your responses on this subject from now on.
I have a site to work on.
>You have combined two areas of complaint and so avoided both objections I raised about those complaints.
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:49 PM, jamesmichaelnewton
> <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
> > Specifically, what topics are not well named?
>
> One example, Holes.
> If you click the "holes" or "drill holes" you get the same scattered
> comments about installing copper tubes as vias. That's not what I
> understand as holes, or drilling holes, that's homebrew methods for
> plating holes maybe. There isn't a bit of information about actually
> making the holes.
>
You said the topics were poorly named, then later said the content is incomplete. When I asked what topics were poorly named, you said the content of the holes page is incomplete.
Obviously, a major reason for holes is to connect layers; so the info on home made vias is very pertinent. Yes, there should be content on that page about drilling holes, but I haven't added it yet and you are not helping. If you (or anyone) has good content that overviews or links to examples of good ways to drill holes, please send it to me so I can put it up, or add it yourself.
I've paid for content many times in the past, and I would pay you again for this content, but I've burned up the money for this week in the time it has taken me to defend the site.
Perhaps when there is a significant amount of info on the page abound drilling holes, I, or anyone who cares to take over the page, will make a separate page on making vias and move the via content to it.
And I do appreciate the ONE bit of specific feedback you have provided on the content. I'll try to add some drill content as time allows. But you failed to defend your point on poor organization or topic naming, and you didn't reply to the point on content completeness.
> > First off, they ARE a different style. The color, I agree, is the same. If you make them a different color, people don't look at them.Seriously? If you can't see "ads by google" on each ad block, then you are pretty darn easy to trick. What do you need? a flashing red outline?
> >
> > Does it occur to you that the ads might have value? That people advertise things that relate?
> >
>
> Does it occur to you that I might not be interested to actually read
> the ads, or at least I might want to know I am reading a commercial ad
> instead of the page content? The ones to the right are fine, but for
> example the line inserted on top looks just the same as your links.
> Maybe you should check your own copyright notice: "©2010 These pages
> are served without commercial sponsorship".
> Tricking people into clicking on ads is not commercial sponsorship?
I'm not sponsored by any commercial interest. No one pays me to publish one comment and remove or delete another. I'm not influenced by corporate spin. The "press and peel" people don't pay me and so influence me to remove the information I host on making your own release paper. The google ads allow me to just focus on the content and ignore the interests of the companies who choose to advertise.
> You aren't interested to accept any criticism as maybe having a validI've ALWAYS accepted any SPECIFIC and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. If all you can say is "It's fugly" or "it doesn't make sense" then you can piss up a rope.
> point, but you want others to contribute to a flawed base.
> This isn't something new, I had exactly the same thought when youFine. go start your own. or don't use mine. But STOP PUBLICLY SLAMMING MY SITE WITHOUT OFFERING ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT.
> added the inkjet content years ago. I kept quiet and hoped the site
> would improve, or maybe it was just me that didn't understand it, but
> it didn't, and it isn't just me.
I could say any number of nasty little things about your group or your leadership of it, but I've always been supportive of your decisions and your style, even when I didn't agree with it.
>IN WHAT /FREAKING/ WAY? You continue to bash my site and yet you absolutely refuse to offer ANY suggestion for how to make the "environment" a little more "inviting" whatever that means.
> Anyway, now you know why I, and probably a few others, don't want to
> actively contribute to your site. You've actually given me money to
> host some stuff about inkjet printing, but you could have way more,
> and all for free, if the environment was just a little more inviting.
This is the last I'll say about this. It's too upsetting to me. Offer specific constructive suggestions or I will simply ignore your responses on this subject from now on.
I have a site to work on.
> Just look at the archive of this yahoo group too see how much people
> will give.
>
> ST
>
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-14 by alienrelics
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Kerry Wentworth <kwentworth@...> wrote:
Steve Greenfield
listowner Homebrew_PCBs
>I agree. Although the Massmind site may not be perfect, if people don't like it, offer to help!
> jamesmichaelnewton wrote:
> > This is exactly the sort of criticism that makes me nuts.
> Amazing, isn't it? You make Strawberry Shortcake for everybody, and
> people complain that you used frozen strawberries. Well, I appreciate
> your efforts. I think it's a very good start.
>
> Kerry
Steve Greenfield
listowner Homebrew_PCBs
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-15 by jamesmichaelnewton
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jamesmichaelnewton" <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
If Stefan /did/ lead a group I /would/ be supportive of his decisions and his style, but he doesn't lead this group, and so my comment was misplaced.
Sorry, that sort of error always happens when I get hot under the collar... You would think I would know better by now.
Best I just walk away from this topic.
>Erk... My bad... I was confusing "Stefan" with "Steven" for a moment there.
>
> I could say any number of nasty little things about your group or your leadership of it, but I've always been supportive of your decisions and your style, even when I didn't agree with it.
>
If Stefan /did/ lead a group I /would/ be supportive of his decisions and his style, but he doesn't lead this group, and so my comment was misplaced.
Sorry, that sort of error always happens when I get hot under the collar... You would think I would know better by now.
Best I just walk away from this topic.
The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-15 by alienrelics
Once in a while we get a bit testy, but generally things are friendly and members are supportive.
Steve Greenfield
listowner Homebrew_PCBs
Steve Greenfield
listowner Homebrew_PCBs
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey & Betty McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> I guess all I can say is I'm "SORRY" for jumping the gun.
>
> It is annoying to see anyone walking all over an administrator, who is donating his time, and then not willing to take part of his load.
>
> I guess what caught me off guard was why was a totally different thread from the other group brought into this group to be discussed.????
>
> I have enjoyed this group, and feel there is much valuable information to be gleaned from all the members.
>
>
> Harvey
>
> www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-16 by Ben L
> There's been a lot of discussion, quite recently, about this as well. My vote is for a metal-cutting bandsaw and fine-tooth metal-cutting blade -- about $160 from Harbor Freight (on sale or with 20% coupon). Yes, that's a lot to pay just to cut PCB, but if you have any need to cut metal on any sort of regular basis, this will work for both tasks.Just standard blades will wear fast cutting FR4.
>
What would be better than a band saw is a table saw or bench model table saw with a Dry/Wet Diamond Blade, set up good dust collection with a fine filter and also protect the motor air intake with a filter to keep from it sucking in the fine dust.
Ben
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-16 by Ben L
Not sure why a band saw would be safer than a table saw, they both have blades that can cut you.
If you build a panel jig for the table saw should be safe easy way to cut. Dry/Wet Diamond blades are easy to fine that will fit the table saw, the 7-1/4" blade is what I have use on my 10" table saw. That is the cleanest, most accurate way to cut FR4. I have a Kepro shear but get more accurate cuts with the table saw.
Ben
If you build a panel jig for the table saw should be safe easy way to cut. Dry/Wet Diamond blades are easy to fine that will fit the table saw, the 7-1/4" blade is what I have use on my 10" table saw. That is the cleanest, most accurate way to cut FR4. I have a Kepro shear but get more accurate cuts with the table saw.
Ben
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have one at the present to test with but I would think that a band saw would yield better (cleaner) results and would be much safer than a table saw. Home Depot sells a small 9" model for $119 that would be perfect for this task.
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
> Ian
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
> > >
> > > Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
> > >
> > > If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
> > >
> > > In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
> > >
> > > Ken H>
> > >
> >
>
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-16 by Ben L
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
Ben
>That should work good, also being a wet saw will keep down the dust.
> Now you have given me a new idea.......Try a 4" diamond saw ...I have one of these wet saws in my shop but never thought to try that avenue. I have the blade that litterly has no teeth, that cuts through cement brick and blocks. Soon as I get to my next cutting project that is what I will try..
Ben
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-16 by Bill
Small table routers work well also.
Not to expensive.Gives a real good clean straight cut.
Not to expensive.Gives a real good clean straight cut.
--- On Sat, 5/15/10, Ben L <bhleavi@...> wrote:
From: Ben L <bhleavi@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 15, 2010, 10:26 PM
Not sure why a band saw would be safer than a table saw, they both have blades that can cut you.
If you build a panel jig for the table saw should be safe easy way to cut. Dry/Wet Diamond blades are easy to fine that will fit the table saw, the 7-1/4" blade is what I have use on my 10" table saw. That is the cleanest, most accurate way to cut FR4. I have a Kepro shear but get more accurate cuts with the table saw.
Ben
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have one at the present to test with but I would think that a band saw would yield better (cleaner) results and would be much safer than a table saw. Home Depot sells a small 9" model for $119 that would be perfect for this task.
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100082549/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
> Ian
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if MicroMark sells small table saws?
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
> > >
> > > Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
> > >
> > > If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
> > >
> > > In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
> > >
> > > Ken H>
> > >
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Update on my clinic.
2010-05-16 by Harris Creek Central.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey McRae" <hlmcrae@...> wrote:
I prepared the boards, predrilled the holes, plus marked the lines with the Markers for etching resist.
Etching solution was prepared in little baby food jars, so basically three people could etch their board in the same little jar. (Preheated to warm to the touch) Every board turned out excellent. The components were handed out, and a careful eye watched to make sure all the little legs got stuck in the right holes. After all components were in place we called it quits for the night but each one took home a homework project to solder the items in place.
Once complete, each member will have a dual flashing unit for things like a police car, ambulance, fire truck etc..
Here is just one of my comments recieved from one member:
Good morning Harvey.
Thanks for a great study! I always thought that a special kind of varnish is needed to protect the copper from being eaten away by the acid. A simple felt marker makes the whole process a lot easier.
So all in all we had an excellent group reaction.
>My clinic went over big time. 8 members out of ten present.
> !!!!!!!!If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.!!!!!!!!!!
>
> I'm putting on a little clinic on etching boards for our model railroad group. Although I have been aware of having to put on this clinic for two months, I dilly dalied around until last night when I am scheduled to do this clinic on this coming wednesday night...
>
> Further to this, I am making up a little parts bag, and each person will etch his own board.....(I have pre-drilled the holes) then each one puts the parts together solders them in place, and hopefully after a couple of evenings working as a group, each member will go home with a "working" model of a dual flashing light.
>
> Pray for me for Wednesday night, that all goes well.. This is the first clinic I have done on this subject.
>
>
>
> Harvey L. McRae
> 838 McKenzie Rd.,
> Kelowna, B.C. V1X2B3
>
> Web: www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sailingto
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:02 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
>
>
>
> Harvey, you are correct - the PCB section that is cut off does not do well at all, unless it's pretty large - couple of inches maybe?
>
> Most all my boards are at least 1" to 3" in width, and that tends to cut off pretty good, but cutting a thin slice will just curl.
>
> If I had to do 15 or 20 boards I think I might opt for a table saw myself - being sure to use a very fine tooth carbide blade.
>
> In the PCB cutoff thread last week there was a really nice looking tiny table saw using diamond blade that looked like it'd do the trick.... If I needed 20 boards I think I'd seriously consider looking at a commercial offering.
>
> Ken H>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I prepared the boards, predrilled the holes, plus marked the lines with the Markers for etching resist.
Etching solution was prepared in little baby food jars, so basically three people could etch their board in the same little jar. (Preheated to warm to the touch) Every board turned out excellent. The components were handed out, and a careful eye watched to make sure all the little legs got stuck in the right holes. After all components were in place we called it quits for the night but each one took home a homework project to solder the items in place.
Once complete, each member will have a dual flashing unit for things like a police car, ambulance, fire truck etc..
Here is just one of my comments recieved from one member:
Good morning Harvey.
Thanks for a great study! I always thought that a special kind of varnish is needed to protect the copper from being eaten away by the acid. A simple felt marker makes the whole process a lot easier.
So all in all we had an excellent group reaction.
Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-17 by Andrew
What do you mean by "just standard blades"? If you mean woodworking blades, then I agree. If you mean any sort of blade on a woodworking band saw, then I agree even more. But if you mean a "standard" metal cutting blade on a metal-cutting band saw (which has a MUCH slower blade speed), then I have to say that that has not been true in my experience.
I have experienced no noticeable wear on my 24 tpi metal cutting blade running on a metal cutting band saw. YMMV :)
I have experienced no noticeable wear on my 24 tpi metal cutting blade running on a metal cutting band saw. YMMV :)
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ben L" <bhleavi@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There's been a lot of discussion, quite recently, about this as well. My vote is for a metal-cutting bandsaw and fine-tooth metal-cutting blade -- about $160 from Harbor Freight (on sale or with 20% coupon). Yes, that's a lot to pay just to cut PCB, but if you have any need to cut metal on any sort of regular basis, this will work for both tasks.
> >
>
> Just standard blades will wear fast cutting FR4.
>
> What would be better than a band saw is a table saw or bench model table saw with a Dry/Wet Diamond Blade, set up good dust collection with a fine filter and also protect the motor air intake with a filter to keep from it sucking in the fine dust.
>
> Ben
>
Re: Update on my clinic.
2010-05-17 by sailingto
> My clinic went over big time. 8 members out of ten present.Congrats on the successful clinic - isn't teaching/learning LOTS of fun?
Ken H.
Re: Update on my clinic.
2010-05-17 by Leon
I did something similar for the local amateur radio club, but as a demo.
I took along a pre-prepared transparency, a pre-cut piece of resist-coated copper laminate, my UV exposure unit, developer and etchant. I exposed the laminate, developed the image, and then etched the board. A lot of members attended and were suitably impressed. I haven't hear of any of them trying it for themselves, though.
I took along a pre-prepared transparency, a pre-cut piece of resist-coated copper laminate, my UV exposure unit, developer and etchant. I exposed the laminate, developed the image, and then etched the board. A lot of members attended and were suitably impressed. I haven't hear of any of them trying it for themselves, though.
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Update on my clinic.
2010-05-17 by Stefan Trethan
Great job.
My first board was a dual flashing light too, and I've made boards
ever since ;-)
Actually doing stuff makes all the difference to get someone startet.
ST
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Harris Creek Central.
<hlmcrae@...> wrote:
My first board was a dual flashing light too, and I've made boards
ever since ;-)
Actually doing stuff makes all the difference to get someone startet.
ST
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Harris Creek Central.
<hlmcrae@...> wrote:
>
> My clinic went over big time. 8 members out of ten present.
>
> I prepared the boards, predrilled the holes, plus marked the lines with the Markers for etching resist.
>
> Etching solution was prepared in little baby food jars, so basically three people could etch their board in the same little jar. (Preheated to warm to the touch) Every board turned out excellent. The components were handed out, and a careful eye watched to make sure all the little legs got stuck in the right holes. After all components were in place we called it quits for the night but each one took home a homework project to solder the items in place.
>
> Once complete, each member will have a dual flashing unit for things like a police car, ambulance, fire truck etc..
>
> Here is just one of my comments recieved from one member:
>
> Good morning Harvey.
>
> Thanks for a great study! I always thought that a special kind of varnish is needed to protect the copper from being eaten away by the acid. A simple felt marker makes the whole process a lot easier.
>
> So all in all we had an excellent group reaction.
>
>
>
>
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Update on my clinic.
2010-05-17 by Harvey & Betty McRae
I have found that as you prepare to share with others, there is always something extra that you gain in the experience.
Just so in my case, always count the number of holes in the board to make sure you haven't missed any or as I did totally forgot a couple and had to make another set of boards in a hurry..
Thanks again for your comments.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Road,
Kelowna, BC. V1X2B3.
www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
Just so in my case, always count the number of holes in the board to make sure you haven't missed any or as I did totally forgot a couple and had to make another set of boards in a hurry..
Thanks again for your comments.
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Road,
Kelowna, BC. V1X2B3.
www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com
----- Original Message -----
From: sailingto
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:29 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Update on my clinic.
> My clinic went over big time. 8 members out of ten present.
Congrats on the successful clinic - isn't teaching/learning LOTS of fun?
Ken H.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2878 - Release Date: 05/16/10 11:26:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
2010-05-22 by Donald H Locker
There is a big difference between a wiki and a user-editable website. A wiki enables simple and consistent markup, indexes certain pieces of information, provides cross-links, and allows ready re-organisation when necessary. The massmind website has lots of information, but the structure isn't conducive to organisation or consistency. I haven't looked deeply into the accuracy of the content; it just too painful. It's hard to read and track.
Sorry to be honest, but that's the way I see it.
Donald.
----- "jamesmichaelnewton" <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
Sorry to be honest, but that's the way I see it.
Donald.
----- "jamesmichaelnewton" <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John McCormick <mcjonster@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ya I agree no offense but that massmind website is terrible.
> >
> > There's a million poorly placed ads on it and is f-ugly...
>
> Seriously? It's more important to you that the site be pretty than
> that it have relevant content? wow... whatever...
>
>
> > Google Sites has free wiki templates and hosting:
> http://sites.google.com/site/projectwikitemplate_en/
> >
> > It would take 15 minutes to recreate all the info on massmind
> without the ads and have a true wiki style webpage faq.
>
> The reason why that site has ads is that the ads pay for someone to
> maintain it. That's why it exists. There are very few saints in the
> engineering world. It makes just enough from those ads to pay my
> hosting bill and for the time I spend maintaining it.
>
>
> > I would volunteer to just cut and paste info into a google webpage
> but I'm not an expert by any means.
>
>
> And yet you feel qualified to slam my efforts. Thanks.
>
>
> > --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Piers Goodhew <piers@...>
> > Subject: Re: The FAQ, and maybe why there isn't one. Was Re:
> [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Best Way to Cut PCB
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 3:34 AM
> >
> >
> > I did look at the massmind site earlier. It didn't seem to have a
> lot of
> > wiki things that I'm used to like auto links, tables of contents,
> nice clean
> > syntax to easily autoformat posts, but I guess I should look again.
>
> Nope, your right, it's a pile of shit. Just read above. But it's a
> pile of shit that works and has most of the /content/ and actual
> information that are important on it. To post something you would have
> to actually type or paste in your text, copy in the URL you wanted to
> reference (if there is one) and then depend on a human page editor
> (me) to link things and edit the page if it needed it. The horror!
>
> If you wanted to be a page editor, you would actually have to learn
> HTML. REAL HTML! That arcane "programming language" that people must
> go to school for years to understand. Instead of auto linking random
> words, you would actually have to type <a href="lcds.htm">lcd</a> so
> don't bother, start a wiki yourself instead.
>
>
> > The main reason I haven't volunteered for such a job is that I think
> you
> > need to be prepared to put in at least a year (half a year) actually
> doing
> > it, and I try not to make commitments I'm not certain i can keep.
>
> Yeah, I wonder why I bother.
>
> In fact, I doubt I will anymore.
>
> --
> James.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>