Homebrew_PCBs

> Brother HL-2170W

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> A subject dear to my heart!
>
> I have spent the last six months experimenting with direct laser
> printing of PCBs, and I am now able to (fairly) reliably produce
> boards using this method. If anyone is interested I can share a LOT
> of details, but the Brother is NOT the way to go. I spent a month or
> so working with the HL-2170, as well as a few other false starts
> before settling on the Lexmark E260 as the printer of choice. The
> "straightness" of the path is relative, and all of the laser printers
> have to be modified to pass pcbs, although you can run the thin,
> somewhat flexible (eg 8 mil) boards through some of them. You cannot
> use the internal fuser.
>
> When I described some of my earlier efforts at direct laser pcb,
> there was some concern that the drum is too easily damaged. In the
> past months I have made several hundred "runs" through my modified
> printer, many of which were experimental, without proper smoothing
> and protecting of edges, and I am still using the same drum. I am
> still not sure of the limits of the process, but I have produced 5
> mil traces without problems.
>
> The steps are:
> 1 - Produce the artwork - I use Eagle.
> 2 - Print the pcb.
> 3 - Place board in oven to "fuse".
> 4 - Etch.
>
> One real advantage of direct laser pcb is that you can see the
> results instantly, and if the "image" is not perfect, you can just
> brush the toner off, wipe the board with acetone, and do another run!
>
> I was waiting till I had the process perfected before "publishing" on
> this forum, but if anyone is interested, I can provide details. You will
> need:
>
> 1 - A Laser Printer - I strongly recommend the Lexmark E260, on sale
> at Staples for $169 (?) with an additional $50 off if you bring in
> any dead printer for "recycling".
> 2 - A high voltage power supply to provide a variable Transfer
> Voltage. A 3KV (variable) at 100 microamps will do - Ebay is your friend.
> 3 - A high voltage relay to switch between the internal transfer
> voltage and the external supply is useful but not strictly necessary.
> 4 - A simple microprocessor board to spoof the sensors that need to
> be emulated and control the printer solenoids and such.
>
> Mark
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > The Brother HL-2170W claims to have a straight through path for card
> > stock, etc...
> >
> > Has anyone tried to use this to print directly on PCB blanks?
>
>
>Won't work anyway, the copper mucks up the static charge lasers use to get
>the powder to stick to the drum, then transfer to the paper (or PCB here).
>
>There's always a first though.
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
>
> A subject dear to my heart!
>
> I have spent the last six months experimenting with direct laser
> printing of PCBs, and I am now able to (fairly) reliably produce
> boards using this method. If anyone is interested I can share a LOT
> of details, but the Brother is NOT the way to go. I spent a month or
> so working with the HL-2170, as well as a few other false starts
> before settling on the Lexmark E260 as the printer of choice. The
> "straightness" of the path is relative, and all of the laser printers
> have to be modified to pass pcbs, although you can run the thin,
> somewhat flexible (eg 8 mil) boards through some of them. You cannot
> use the internal fuser.
>
> When I described some of my earlier efforts at direct laser pcb,
> there was some concern that the drum is too easily damaged. In the
> past months I have made several hundred "runs" through my modified
> printer, many of which were experimental, without proper smoothing
> and protecting of edges, and I am still using the same drum. I am
> still not sure of the limits of the process, but I have produced 5
> mil traces without problems.
>
> The steps are:
> 1 - Produce the artwork - I use Eagle.
> 2 - Print the pcb.
> 3 - Place board in oven to "fuse".
> 4 - Etch.
>
> One real advantage of direct laser pcb is that you can see the
> results instantly, and if the "image" is not perfect, you can just
> brush the toner off, wipe the board with acetone, and do another run!
>
> I was waiting till I had the process perfected before "publishing" on
> this forum, but if anyone is interested, I can provide details. You will need:
>
> 1 - A Laser Printer - I strongly recommend the Lexmark E260, on sale
> at Staples for $169 (?) with an additional $50 off if you bring in
> any dead printer for "recycling".
> 2 - A high voltage power supply to provide a variable Transfer
> Voltage. A 3KV (variable) at 100 microamps will do - Ebay is your friend.
> 3 - A high voltage relay to switch between the internal transfer
> voltage and the external supply is useful but not strictly necessary.
> 4 - A simple microprocessor board to spoof the sensors that need to
> be emulated and control the printer solenoids and such.
>
> Mark
>

>I was thinking the same as everyone the charge that will conduct on the
>metal part of the board and have no electrostatic difference for the powder
>to stick to the board but when I saw the 3kv power supply I think you are on
>to something unique and that will work. Please post more details on how you
>charge the board, is the powersupply on all the time and connected between
>the drum and the board? how are making contact to the board and hv when it
>is moving... lots of questions. please post details. I think this could be
>the coolest breakthrough for direct printing, for all of us who have been
>trying to do this for years.
>Kim
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 4:14 AM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] direct laser PCB
>
>
> >
> > A subject dear to my heart!
> >
> > I have spent the last six months experimenting with direct laser
> > printing of PCBs, and I am now able to (fairly) reliably produce
> > boards using this method. If anyone is interested I can share a LOT
> > of details, but the Brother is NOT the way to go. I spent a month or
> > so working with the HL-2170, as well as a few other false starts
> > before settling on the Lexmark E260 as the printer of choice. The
> > "straightness" of the path is relative, and all of the laser printers
> > have to be modified to pass pcbs, although you can run the thin,
> > somewhat flexible (eg 8 mil) boards through some of them. You cannot
> > use the internal fuser.
> >
> > When I described some of my earlier efforts at direct laser pcb,
> > there was some concern that the drum is too easily damaged. In the
> > past months I have made several hundred "runs" through my modified
> > printer, many of which were experimental, without proper smoothing
> > and protecting of edges, and I am still using the same drum. I am
> > still not sure of the limits of the process, but I have produced 5
> > mil traces without problems.
> >
> > The steps are:
> > 1 - Produce the artwork - I use Eagle.
> > 2 - Print the pcb.
> > 3 - Place board in oven to "fuse".
> > 4 - Etch.
> >
> > One real advantage of direct laser pcb is that you can see the
> > results instantly, and if the "image" is not perfect, you can just
> > brush the toner off, wipe the board with acetone, and do another run!
> >
> > I was waiting till I had the process perfected before "publishing" on
> > this forum, but if anyone is interested, I can provide details. You will
> > need:
> >
> > 1 - A Laser Printer - I strongly recommend the Lexmark E260, on sale
> > at Staples for $169 (?) with an additional $50 off if you bring in
> > any dead printer for "recycling".
> > 2 - A high voltage power supply to provide a variable Transfer
> > Voltage. A 3KV (variable) at 100 microamps will do - Ebay is your friend.
> > 3 - A high voltage relay to switch between the internal transfer
> > voltage and the external supply is useful but not strictly necessary.
> > 4 - A simple microprocessor board to spoof the sensors that need to
> > be emulated and control the printer solenoids and such.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
> I don't want a flame war here, but I've got a board in my hand,
> direct from my modified laser printer, that says you are wrong. When
> the boards come out of my laser printer the toner is quite solidly
> attached to the copper. You can turn the board over and tap it or
> blow on it strongly without disturbing the toner.
>
> Interestingly, double clad boards are easier to do than single sided
> ones. It seems to require a much higher voltage to charge a board
> that does not have copper touching the transfer roller.
>
> Mark
>
>
> At 08:45 AM 4/28/2010, you wrote:
> > > The Brother HL-2170W claims to have a straight through path for card
> > > stock, etc...
> > >
> > > Has anyone tried to use this to print directly on PCB blanks?
> >
> >
> >Won't work anyway, the copper mucks up the static charge lasers use to get
> >the powder to stick to the drum, then transfer to the paper (or PCB here).
> >
> >There's always a first though.
> >
> >Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

>Mark,
>I would be interested in more info on your process. Do you get much
>spreading of the trace width during the reflow fusing in the oven.
>
>Thanks,
>Craig
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> >
> > I don't want a flame war here, but I've got a board in my hand,
> > direct from my modified laser printer, that says you are wrong. When
> > the boards come out of my laser printer the toner is quite solidly
> > attached to the copper. You can turn the board over and tap it or
> > blow on it strongly without disturbing the toner.
> >
> > Interestingly, double clad boards are easier to do than single sided
> > ones. It seems to require a much higher voltage to charge a board
> > that does not have copper touching the transfer roller.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > At 08:45 AM 4/28/2010, you wrote:
> > > > The Brother HL-2170W claims to have a straight through path for card
> > > > stock, etc...
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone tried to use this to print directly on PCB blanks?
> > >
> > >
> > >Won't work anyway, the copper mucks up the static charge lasers use to get
> > >the powder to stick to the drum, then transfer to the paper (or PCB here).
> > >
> > >There's always a first though.
> > >
> > >Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files,
> and Photos:
> > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
>
>
> Some more scans <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/direct_laser_pcbs>
>
> Mark
>
> ___._,___
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> The trick with TT is to find a temperature that is hot enough to make
> the toner plastic and sticky, but not hot enough to make it liquid. If
> it's too cool, it won't stick. If it's too hot, the toner spreads out
> (smears). The "right" temp depends on the toner brand, too, with
> Brother needing a hotter temperature than others. I've been using 340 F
> for HP toner, but found that 370 F or so is needed for Brother toner.
>
> As for direct-laser: one thought is to find a water-soluble coating you
> can put on the board, so that you can laser print onto the coating but
> have it wash away in the etchant. You only need enough to keep the
> copper from discharging the static charge the laser printer uses.
>

>the powder to stick to the drum, then transfer to the paper (or PCB here).

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, but it bugs me when people jump in and say "it won't work, or
> sorry to rain on your parade"
>
> Ok, prove to me it *** WON'T*** work.
>
> Have you tried it and failed with every possible variation, or are you
> just reading the wiki or "How it works" and
> making a global statement that hopefully true engineers won't listen too.
>
> I sorta like innovation. When we are kids, we can do anything.
> When we get older, people like tell us how we can't do things.
> Funny that the innovators are usually the young ones, or still young in
> mind.
>
> >Won't work anyway, the copper mucks up the static charge lasers use to
> get
> >the powder to stick to the drum, then transfer to the paper (or PCB here).
>
> Top of my head: Find a way to localize the charges by maybe sandpapering
> or pre-ectching
> for rough micro-peaks.
>

>On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Some more scans <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/direct_laser_pcbs>
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ___._,___
> >
>Thanks for sharing - this is impressive work.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

> > Sorry, but it bugs me when people jump in and say "it won't work, or
> > sorry to rain on your parade"
> >
>

> > Sorry, but it bugs me when people jump in and say "it won't work, or
> > sorry to rain on your parade"
> >
>

> I just purchased 2 units to dissect. Currently I'm using solid ink printers and will post when I get the process bulletproof.
>
> This direct laser an interesting method that I want to investigate.
> Thanks Mark for posting the result pictures.
>
> -Lee

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
> For anyone interested, I've put the controller schematic and the
> connections to the E260 printer on my pbase site.
> <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>
>
> Is there somewhere I can post files for interested people to download?
> More to follow.
>
> Mark
>

>Greetings. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.
>
>If you apply a water soluble coating to the copper, you shouldn't need
>to modify your laser printer to be able to print directly on the copper
>(except perhaps to compensate for the thickness of the board).
>
>We sell such at coating at www.laserpcb.com, and I thought I'd "open
>source" the recipe for everyone.
>
>1 cup water
>1 cup isopropyl alchohol
>4 tablespoons Carbomer 940
>
>We buy our Carbomer 940 here:
>http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/emulsifiers.html
>
>Blend REALLY well. I use a hand-held immersion blender as found at:
>http://www.target.com/KitchenAid-Immersion-Blender-Onyx-Black/dp/B00008GSA4
>
>Instructions for applying the coating can be found at:
>http://www.laserpcb.com/coating.php
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Dave
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Thank you VERY MUCH for the recipe! This may indeed be the missing
> piece, though I really have no problem printing directly on the
> copper - My problem is distributing the charge on the board. I tried
> to buy some of your stuff, including the coating, a while ago, but
> you told me it was out of stock Do you have more? If so, can I buy a
> bottle to try - I can pay via Paypal at your regular site.
>
> Mark
>
> At 01:32 PM 5/4/2010, you wrote:
> >Greetings. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.
> >
> >If you apply a water soluble coating to the copper, you shouldn't need
> >to modify your laser printer to be able to print directly on the copper
> >(except perhaps to compensate for the thickness of the board).
> >
> >We sell such at coating at www.laserpcb.com, and I thought I'd "open
> >source" the recipe for everyone.
> >
> >1 cup water
> >1 cup isopropyl alchohol
> >4 tablespoons Carbomer 940
> >
> >We buy our Carbomer 940 here:
> >http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/emulsifiers.html
> <http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/emulsifiers.html>
> >
> >Blend REALLY well. I use a hand-held immersion blender as found at:
> >http://www.target.com/KitchenAid-Immersion-Blender-Onyx-Black/dp/B00008GSA4
> <http://www.target.com/KitchenAid-Immersion-Blender-Onyx-Black/dp/B00008GSA4>
> >
> >Instructions for applying the coating can be found at:
> >http://www.laserpcb.com/coating.php <http://www.laserpcb.com/coating.php>
> >
> >Hope this helps.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo>! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>

>I'll send you a sample to experiment with. I've got your address, and
>will ship it probably Wednesday.
>
>Dave
>
>
>Mark Lerman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > Thank you VERY MUCH for the recipe! This may indeed be the missing
> > piece, though I really have no problem printing directly on the
> > copper - My problem is distributing the charge on the board. I tried
> > to buy some of your stuff, including the coating, a while ago, but
> > you told me it was out of stock Do you have more? If so, can I buy a
> > bottle to try - I can pay via Paypal at your regular site.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > At 01:32 PM 5/4/2010, you wrote:
> > >Greetings. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.
> > >
> > >If you apply a water soluble coating to the copper, you shouldn't need
> > >to modify your laser printer to be able to print directly on the copper
> > >(except perhaps to compensate for the thickness of the board).
> > >
> > >We sell such at coating at www.laserpcb.com, and I thought I'd "open
> > >source" the recipe for everyone.
> > >
> > >1 cup water
> > >1 cup isopropyl alchohol
> > >4 tablespoons Carbomer 940
> > >
> > >We buy our Carbomer 940 here:
> > >http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/emulsifiers.html
> > <http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/emulsifiers.html>
> > >
> > >Blend REALLY well. I use a hand-held immersion blender as found at:
> > >http://www.target.com/KitchenAid-Immersion-Blender-Onyx-Black/dp/
> B00008GSA4
> >
> <http://www.target.com/KitchenAid-Immersion-Blender-Onyx-Black/dp/B00008GSA4>
> > >
> > >Instructions for applying the coating can be found at:
> > >http://www.laserpcb.com/coating.php <http://www.laserpcb.com/coating.php>
> > >
> > >Hope this helps.
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo>! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>