Homebrew_PCBs

I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.

Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time, but my results are always similar.

It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but I never get the whole thing.

My current process is:

1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit sandpaper
3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and let it soak for 10-20 minutes.

I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring, cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened results.

I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water, as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer whatsoever.

Any tips or ideas?

A couple of ideas.

1) Try magazine paper

2) Use 00 steel wool or scotchbrite to scrub the board, not 150 sandpaper.

I use a laminator now, but when I ironed, it was 4 to 5 minutes, not 2.

Let us know how it works out for you.

Kerry


andrewmv@... wrote:

> I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
>
> Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time, but my results are always similar.
>
> It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but I never get the whole thing.
>
> My current process is:
>
> 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit sandpaper
> 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
>
> I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring, cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened results.
>
> I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water, as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer whatsoever.
>
> Any tips or ideas?
>
>

Andrew (great name, by the way!),

150 grit seems way too coarse to me, and in my limited experimenting, acetone alone doesn't seem to do an adequate job of degreasing. Try scrubbing the board using a clean scotchbrite pad with dish soap and water. When you rinse it, see if you get a clean sheeting action from the water; if not, you may still have some grease. I do use acetone as the final step. Avoid touching the surface of the board once it is clean.

A couple of other thoughts ... is the toner cartridge new, or near the end? I've heard that this can make a significant difference ... though I have to confess that I have gotten very good results with my HP 2015dn even when the "change toner soon" warning light is lit.

Finally, I have heard or read somewhere that some copper board just doesn't work well with TT no matter how well you prep it. I don't know if that is true, but if you have access to a different batch of board, you might give that a try.

Good luck -- (another) Andy

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrewmv@..." <andrewmv@...> wrote:
>
> I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
>
> Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time, but my results are always similar.
>
> It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but I never get the whole thing.
>
> My current process is:
>
> 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit sandpaper
> 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
>
> I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring, cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened results.
>
> I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water, as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer whatsoever.
>
> Any tips or ideas?
>

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:03:57 -0000
"andrewmv@..." <andrewmv@...> wrote:

> Any tips or ideas?

Just a few suggestions (learned the hard way):

- Don't use 150 grit, it's way too coarse, just as Andy said. I use
'steel wool', the fine variety sold for cleaning surfaces. If not
available, go for at least 300 or 400 grit. Unlike Andy, I never had
problems with Acetone, but I guess after the thorough cleaning with steel
wool, there wouldn't be any grease anyway.

- I've never seen mentioned that you should lay the board on an
insulating layer, but it _is_ needed. I use a newspaper (at least 10
pages). If no insulating is present, it's quite possible that heat is
drained from the board on several spots.

John

I've had the same problems and complaints with the toner transfer method
on my first attempts at making my PCBs. I gave up and tried the photo
resist method which works a whole lot better. It seems like a little
more work at first buts it really not much more trouble and well worth
the more consistent results. I use the developer and boars from
www.jameco.com



When cash flow gets better I may try the pulsar solution. It seems that
Pulsar provides a more turn-key solution to the TT method that may yield
acceptable results.







Best Regards,

Steve Maroney



Business Computer Support, LLC

Mobile Phone:504-914-4704

Office Phone: 504-904-0266

Fax: 866-871-7797





From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrewmv@...
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 6:04 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer problems





I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.

Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while
others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing
time, but my results are always similar.

It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but
I never get the whole thing.

My current process is:

1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
sandpaper
3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side
down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I
move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and
let it soak for 10-20 minutes.

I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all
the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved
or worsened results.

I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water,
as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner
transfer whatsoever.

Any tips or ideas?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, everybody, for the advice!

Kerry:

I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway, so I'll give it a try.

Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.

Does a laminator work substantially better?

Andy:

I don't know when the toner was changed, because I'm not the one who does it. There's nothing like a "change soon" message, though.

I'm fortunate enough to have access to a color laser printer (Also a Dell) at work. Are there benefits to different colors of toner (similar to the magenta Epson inkjet trick)?

My double-sided blanks came from Radio Shack. I actually bought them somewhere around five years ago and stuck them on a shelf before I got around to this project. I can try to source some others.

John:

I currently laying boards directly on the bottom an an empty pine cigar box. I hadn't thought about it, but this is probably conducting a lot of heat though to the air on the other side. I'll put some newspaper directly down on my workbench.

Steve:

I've seen photoresist mentioned as a more reliable method in several places, but I've also seen some pretty impressive results from toner transfer, and wanted to make sure I was getting the process right.

The Pulsar system was recommended to me on this list, and I took a look at it. It looks like a pretty solid and complete solution, but at $75 a kit, I think I'm more tempted to send off to a low-volume fab shop like BatchPCB that would do the solder resist mask and proper silkscreening for around the same price.

-Andrew

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Maroney" <steve@...> wrote:
>
> I've had the same problems and complaints with the toner transfer method
> on my first attempts at making my PCBs. I gave up and tried the photo
> resist method which works a whole lot better. It seems like a little
> more work at first buts it really not much more trouble and well worth
> the more consistent results. I use the developer and boars from
> www.jameco.com
>
>
>
> When cash flow gets better I may try the pulsar solution. It seems that
> Pulsar provides a more turn-key solution to the TT method that may yield
> acceptable results.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Steve Maroney
>
>
>
> Business Computer Support, LLC
>
> Mobile Phone:504-914-4704
>
> Office Phone: 504-904-0266
>
> Fax: 866-871-7797
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrewmv@...
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 6:04 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer problems
>
>
>
>
>
> I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
> method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
>
> Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while
> others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing
> time, but my results are always similar.
>
> It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but
> I never get the whole thing.
>
> My current process is:
>
> 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
> Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> sandpaper
> 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
> clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side
> down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I
> move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
> minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and
> let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
>
> I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
> cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all
> the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved
> or worsened results.
>
> I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water,
> as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner
> transfer whatsoever.
>
> Any tips or ideas?
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

This seems to be a big problem on most sites. A group of people come up with a way that works, and others post saying, " Your process doesn't work, I used a different paper than you did,and a different board prep method but I did it just like you said, and it doesn't work"

It seems that most people that use magazine paper, scotchbrite and alcohol have good results.

Is it because the magazine paper is "free" that people think it won't work? I guess it comes down to free and expensive expensive wins. Even if it isn't as good!

cary

--- On Sun, 4/18/10, Kerry Wentworth <kwentworth@...> wrote:


From: Kerry Wentworth <kwentworth@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer problems
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2010, 7:37 PM






A couple of ideas.

1) Try magazine paper

2) Use 00 steel wool or scotchbrite to scrub the board, not 150 sandpaper.

I use a laminator now, but when I ironed, it was 4 to 5 minutes, not 2.

Let us know how it works out for you.

Kerry

andrewmv@ymail. com wrote:
> I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
>
> Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time, but my results are always similar.
>
> It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but I never get the whole thing.
>
> My current process is:
>
> 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit sandpaper
> 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
>
> I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring, cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened results.
>
> I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water, as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer whatsoever.
>
> Any tips or ideas?
>
>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Magazine paper transfers heat better and is easier to soak off. And a
lifetime supply is as near as your mail box. I'm using a B&B
electronics catalog.

I bought a GBC Personal laminator from MyBinding.com for $25 delivered.
I may never iron again. The advantage is consistency, of temperature
and pressure. Once you get it working to your satisfaction, all boards
come out the same.

Yes, scotchbrite is not my first choice. I like 3M 000 synthetic steel
wool, but scotchbrite and a little Bon Ami and elbow grease works fine, too.

Kerry

andrewmv@... wrote:

> Thanks, everybody, for the advice!
>
> Kerry:
>
> I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway, so I'll give it a try.
>
> Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.
>
> Does a laminator work substantially better?
>

Photo resist, photo resist, photo resist !!!!





Best Regards,

Steve Maroney



Business Computer Support, LLC

Mobile Phone:504-914-4704

Office Phone: 504-904-0266

Fax: 866-871-7797





From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Wentworth
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer problems





Yeah, when I first found out about this toner transfer thing, I started
a file with all the conflicting advice on the web, preheat or don't
preheat board, magazine, Gootee or dextrin coated paper, or
transparencies, iron flat or on edge, high or low pressure, 2 minutes or
5, and on and on.

The internet is like a Magic 8 Ball. All the answers are there, you just
have to figure out which ones are RIGHT answers.

Kerry

cary heestand wrote:

> This seems to be a big problem on most sites. A group of people come up with a way that works, and others post saying, " Your process doesn't work, I used a different paper than you did,and a different board prep method but I did it just like you said, and it doesn't work"
>
> It seems that most people that use magazine paper, scotchbrite and alcohol have good results.
>
> Is it because the magazine paper is "free" that people think it won't work? I guess it comes down to free and expensive expensive wins. Even if it isn't as good!
>
> cary
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, when I first found out about this toner transfer thing, I started
a file with all the conflicting advice on the web, preheat or don't
preheat board, magazine, Gootee or dextrin coated paper, or
transparencies, iron flat or on edge, high or low pressure, 2 minutes or
5, and on and on.

The internet is like a Magic 8 Ball. All the answers are there, you just
have to figure out which ones are RIGHT answers.

Kerry

cary heestand wrote:

> This seems to be a big problem on most sites. A group of people come up with a way that works, and others post saying, " Your process doesn't work, I used a different paper than you did,and a different board prep method but I did it just like you said, and it doesn't work"
>
> It seems that most people that use magazine paper, scotchbrite and alcohol have good results.
>
> Is it because the magazine paper is "free" that people think it won't work? I guess it comes down to free and expensive expensive wins. Even if it isn't as good!
>
> cary
>

I first read about the process with the glossy photo paper method, which
seemed to be much more prevalent on a number of sites. It wasn't until I
dug though a lot of other tutorials that I ever saw the magazine paper
method come up.

Most of the information I've seen seems to take the "I've always done it
this way" stance, so it's difficult to get a good feel for which method is
preferred.

I wasn't trying to claim that anybody's process was bad - I just wanted to
get a better feel for what I was doing wrong.

-Andrew

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, cary heestand <c.hhestand@...> wrote:

>
>
> This seems to be a big problem on most sites. A group of people come up
> with a way that works, and others post saying, " Your process doesn't work,
> I used a different paper than you did,and a different board prep method but
> I did it just like you said, and it doesn't work"
>
> It seems that most people that use magazine paper, scotchbrite and alcohol
> have good results.
>
> Is it because the magazine paper is "free" that people think it won't
> work? I guess it comes down to free and expensive expensive wins. Even if
> it isn't as good!
>
> cary
>
>
> --- On Sun, 4/18/10, Kerry Wentworth <kwentworth@...<kwentworth%40skunkworksnh.com>>
> wrote:
>
> From: Kerry Wentworth <kwentworth@...<kwentworth%40skunkworksnh.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer problems
>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sunday, April 18, 2010, 7:37 PM
>
>
>
>
> A couple of ideas.
>
> 1) Try magazine paper
>
> 2) Use 00 steel wool or scotchbrite to scrub the board, not 150 sandpaper.
>
> I use a laminator now, but when I ironed, it was 4 to 5 minutes, not 2.
>
> Let us know how it works out for you.
>
> Kerry
>
> andrewmv@ymail. com wrote:
> > I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
> method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
> >
> > Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while
> others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing
> time, but my results are always similar.
> >
> > It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but
> I never get the whole thing.
> >
> > My current process is:
> >
> > 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
> Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> > 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> sandpaper
> > 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> > 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
> clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> > 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side
> down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I
> move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
> minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> > 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and
> let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
> >
> > I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
> cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the
> way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved or
> worsened results.
> >
> > I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water,
> as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer
> whatsoever.
> >
> > Any tips or ideas?
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To add my own experimentation to the pool, I did a couple of runs using
iron-on T-shirt transfer paper. I'd never heard of anyone using this
before, but it was *made* for transferring toner, so it must be perfect,
right?

It was actually a miserable failure - it doesn't transfer any better, and
since it doesn't stick to the board at any temperature, it's almost
impossible to keep the pattern aligned. It does allow you to skip the
water-soaking step, though.

-Andrew

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Kerry Wentworth <
kwentworth@...> wrote:

>
>
> Yeah, when I first found out about this toner transfer thing, I started
> a file with all the conflicting advice on the web, preheat or don't
> preheat board, magazine, Gootee or dextrin coated paper, or
> transparencies, iron flat or on edge, high or low pressure, 2 minutes or
> 5, and on and on.
>
> The internet is like a Magic 8 Ball. All the answers are there, you just
> have to figure out which ones are RIGHT answers.
>
> Kerry
>
>
> cary heestand wrote:
> > This seems to be a big problem on most sites. A group of people come up
> with a way that works, and others post saying, " Your process doesn't work,
> I used a different paper than you did,and a different board prep method but
> I did it just like you said, and it doesn't work"
> >
> > It seems that most people that use magazine paper, scotchbrite and
> alcohol have good results.
> >
> > Is it because the magazine paper is "free" that people think it won't
> work? I guess it comes down to free and expensive expensive wins. Even if it
> isn't as good!
> >
> > cary
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

andrewmv@... pravi:

>
>
> Thanks, everybody, for the advice!
>
> Kerry:
>
> I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any
> discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway,
> so I'll give it a try.
>

It's tinner. The heat comes trought faster. And near dissolve in watter.
.. and free.
But it's difficult to print on it. As tend's to wrinkle. I just tape
part of that thin paper on regular paper with masking tape.

>
> Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour
> pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.
>

I cut 6 circles about 5cm in diameter from "those green dish scour pads"
and all stack to one M8 bolt. This gone to drill machine and does hard
work of cleaning PCB. Just set drill to aprox 600rpm and push PCB
against it. After cleaning turn board 90 degres and reclean.. 10 x 10 cm
board cleaning time is aprox 2 minute. After that just wipe board with
paper towel. (no solvents needed.)

>
> Does a laminator work substantially better?
>

..Much better than iron!
But I make hack on mine to heat up to about 180 degres centigrade. I
make six pass without preheating board.
After etching I use stell ball (another kitchen cleaning item) like mesh
of stell to rub toner out. Again NO solvent used. Just rub with stell
mesh under watter.


Slavko

It is interesting the variety of ways that people have of doing TT. I'm sure others are like me -- once you try something and it works, you stick with it.

In my experience, the green scotch brite scouring pads are more than sufficient in terms of abrasion. Steel wool or wet/dry sand paper are certainly alternatives that I would not hesitate to try. I've seen the reference to using cleanser (Comet, Ajax, etc.) as well, and have thought that would be an interesting alternative to try. As I understand it, whatever you use, you want very fine scratches, but NOT deep/large scratches, and of course you want the board to end up absolutely clean, free of any grease or oxidation, etc.

I've had good results with magazine paper and an iron; my only complaint is that it can be hard to see what you have printed because of the print already on it. I have had color from the magazine print transfer onto the PCB, but it did not seem to affect the etching at all. I am currently using HP glossy laserjet paper (don't recall the exact name), which does NOT soak off worth a darn ... but which WILL peel off cleanly leaving the toner behind if you peel it off right after it comes out of the laminator. I do think the laminator is better, but I got some good results just using an iron.

The first couple of boards that I produced were from Radio Shack. Since then I've been working through a bulk order that I got from EBay, from seller amt33461 -- no affiliation except a very satisfied customer.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
>
> andrewmv@... pravi:
> >
> >
> > Thanks, everybody, for the advice!
> >
> > Kerry:
> >
> > I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any
> > discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway,
> > so I'll give it a try.
> >
>
>
> It's tinner. The heat comes trought faster. And near dissolve in watter.
> .. and free.
> But it's difficult to print on it. As tend's to wrinkle. I just tape
> part of that thin paper on regular paper with masking tape.
>
>
> >
> > Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour
> > pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.
> >
>
> I cut 6 circles about 5cm in diameter from "those green dish scour pads"
> and all stack to one M8 bolt. This gone to drill machine and does hard
> work of cleaning PCB. Just set drill to aprox 600rpm and push PCB
> against it. After cleaning turn board 90 degres and reclean.. 10 x 10 cm
> board cleaning time is aprox 2 minute. After that just wipe board with
> paper towel. (no solvents needed.)
>
>
> >
> > Does a laminator work substantially better?
> >
>
> ..Much better than iron!
> But I make hack on mine to heat up to about 180 degres centigrade. I
> make six pass without preheating board.
> After etching I use stell ball (another kitchen cleaning item) like mesh
> of stell to rub toner out. Again NO solvent used. Just rub with stell
> mesh under watter.
>
>
> Slavko
>

Again, everybody seems to get different results. I stick a piece of
magazine paper in my HP LaserJet 1100 and print it. Never had a
problem. I use the cheapest toner cartridge I could find, others swear
you need genuine HP toner. You just need to try stuff until you have
something that works.

Kerry


Slavko Kocjancic wrote:

>
> It's tinner. The heat comes trought faster. And near dissolve in watter.
> .. and free.
> But it's difficult to print on it. As tend's to wrinkle. I just tape
> part of that thin paper on regular paper with masking tape.
>

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:27:31 -0000, you wrote:

>Thanks, everybody, for the advice!
>
>Kerry:
>
>I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway, so I'll give it a try.

That's its advantage. Seems that the clay coating allows toner to
transfer easily. Not tried it though.

>
>Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.
>

They are, but I modified someone else's approach. Comet cleanser,
then sanding with 1000 or 2000 grit wet/dry paper seems to work very
well. Acetone is ok for a cleanser, YMMV.

>Does a laminator work substantially better?

Yes, the right kind. Press & Peel seems to require a higher
temperature (see Pulsar's web site for remarks). GBC is the only one
they recommend.

>
>Andy:
>
>I don't know when the toner was changed, because I'm not the one who does it. There's nothing like a "change soon" message, though.
>
>I'm fortunate enough to have access to a color laser printer (Also a Dell) at work. Are there benefits to different colors of toner (similar to the magenta Epson inkjet trick)?
>
>My double-sided blanks came from Radio Shack. I actually bought them somewhere around five years ago and stuck them on a shelf before I got around to this project. I can try to source some others.
>
>John:
>
>I currently laying boards directly on the bottom an an empty pine cigar box. I hadn't thought about it, but this is probably conducting a lot of heat though to the air on the other side. I'll put some newspaper directly down on my workbench.
>
>Steve:
>
>I've seen photoresist mentioned as a more reliable method in several places, but I've also seen some pretty impressive results from toner transfer, and wanted to make sure I was getting the process right.

Photoresist is nicer, but depends on exposure and density of the
positive (negative) for success.

TT is less bother, in a way. but still has problems. Cheaper because
the toner on board method is cheaper than commercially coated boards.

>
>The Pulsar system was recommended to me on this list, and I took a look at it. It looks like a pretty solid and complete solution, but at $75 a kit, I think I'm more tempted to send off to a low-volume fab shop like BatchPCB that would do the solder resist mask and proper silkscreening for around the same price.

Paper at 16.00 for 10 sheets (less shipping), you round up your own
laminator. Green foil at about 9.00 for 15 feet. Depends on how good
your designs are, how many you want, size of board, double sided or
not, availability of PC board material, etc.

Harvey

>
>-Andrew
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Maroney" <steve@...> wrote:
>>
>> I've had the same problems and complaints with the toner transfer method
>> on my first attempts at making my PCBs. I gave up and tried the photo
>> resist method which works a whole lot better. It seems like a little
>> more work at first buts it really not much more trouble and well worth
>> the more consistent results. I use the developer and boars from
>> www.jameco.com
>>
>>
>>
>> When cash flow gets better I may try the pulsar solution. It seems that
>> Pulsar provides a more turn-key solution to the TT method that may yield
>> acceptable results.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Steve Maroney
>>
>>
>>
>> Business Computer Support, LLC
>>
>> Mobile Phone:504-914-4704
>>
>> Office Phone: 504-904-0266
>>
>> Fax: 866-871-7797
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrewmv@...
>> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 6:04 PM
>> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer problems
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
>> method, and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
>>
>> Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while
>> others stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing
>> time, but my results are always similar.
>>
>> It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but
>> I never get the whole thing.
>>
>> My current process is:
>>
>> 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
>> Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
>> 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
>> sandpaper
>> 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
>> 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
>> clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
>> 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side
>> down on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
>> immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I
>> move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
>> minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
>> 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and
>> let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
>>
>> I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
>> cleaning, or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all
>> the way up to my full body weight. None of these significantly improved
>> or worsened results.
>>
>> I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water,
>> as I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner
>> transfer whatsoever.
>>
>> Any tips or ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway, so I'll give it a try.
>

Well it's free, that's the first thing it has going for it, and a walk out to my mailbox on any given day has a good probability of yielding some so it's always on hand. The second is that it separates cleanly and leaves no residue between even fine tracks like the photo paper does. I soak for a few minutes then simply peel it off if it hasn't fallen off on its own and the board is ready to etch. One thing I have noticed is that some areas inhibit pitting of the copper more than others, in fact if you have large areas of copper you can see the graphics that were printed on the paper etched into them. I've been meaning to experiment more, I believe the areas that are printed with certain colors get no pitting at all. TRF film ought to solve this problem completely but as of yet I haven't had any luck with it, I may try an iron for that part since it will get hotter, or maybe something from the paper stops the TRF from sticking.

I might give some real trasfer paper a shot sometime as a consideration for final boards, but for prototypes the magazine paper is very adequate. If I make a mistake on the board and have to redo it, it's not a big deal if it only cost me 50 cents.

> Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.
>

Yep, and they do a great job, they're surprisingly abrasive, in fact the fresh ones can score the copper deeper than you want it if you press too hard.

> Does a laminator work substantially better?
>

The laminator made a HUGE difference for me. Instantly my transfer successes went from ~25% to very nearly 100%, the only failures I've had have been my fingers slipping causing the pattern to misalign. A further improvement came from modifying the laminator to get hotter.

I made a run with the magazine paper, and got dramatically better results.

The Dell laser printer doesn't have a straight though paper path, but I had no difficulty feeding magazine paper directly into the loop-around feed though the manual paper tray - even loading up multiple sheets to do successive copies worked fine.

The paper bubbled in places from the heat of the fuser, and I could smell chemicals burning off the page, but everything came though without jamming or wrinkling.

I scrubbed the toner off one of my earlier boards with acetone, gave it a good scrubbing with ordinary dish-soap and water, dried it, preheated it with the iron, then laid on the pattern.

I put solid pressure on it for 5-6 minutes, dropped it in a bowl of hot water, let it soak for about 20 minutes, and peeled off the paper.

Nothing got left behind on the paper at all, and the results were almost usable on the first attempt. Some of the traces have small breaks in them, and there's some bleeding where I believe I applied too much pressure. I could probably use this board with some resist ink and cutting.

There's some tweaking left to do, and I hope to get better results yet when I get some new boards I haven't over-scoured, but this is definitely a good start.

Thanks for all the advise!

-Andrew

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I've seen magazine paper used in another tutorial, but didn't see any discussion as to its benefits. It's cheaper than photo paper anyway, so I'll give it a try.
> >
>
>
> Well it's free, that's the first thing it has going for it, and a walk out to my mailbox on any given day has a good probability of yielding some so it's always on hand. The second is that it separates cleanly and leaves no residue between even fine tracks like the photo paper does. I soak for a few minutes then simply peel it off if it hasn't fallen off on its own and the board is ready to etch. One thing I have noticed is that some areas inhibit pitting of the copper more than others, in fact if you have large areas of copper you can see the graphics that were printed on the paper etched into them. I've been meaning to experiment more, I believe the areas that are printed with certain colors get no pitting at all. TRF film ought to solve this problem completely but as of yet I haven't had any luck with it, I may try an iron for that part since it will get hotter, or maybe something from the paper stops the TRF from sticking.
>
> I might give some real trasfer paper a shot sometime as a consideration for final boards, but for prototypes the magazine paper is very adequate. If I make a mistake on the board and have to redo it, it's not a big deal if it only cost me 50 cents.
>
>
> > Does Scotchbrite simply refer to those green synthetic dish scour pads? They don't seem like they'd be abrasive enough to scour copper.
> >
>
> Yep, and they do a great job, they're surprisingly abrasive, in fact the fresh ones can score the copper deeper than you want it if you press too hard.
>
> > Does a laminator work substantially better?
> >
>
>
> The laminator made a HUGE difference for me. Instantly my transfer successes went from ~25% to very nearly 100%, the only failures I've had have been my fingers slipping causing the pattern to misalign. A further improvement came from modifying the laminator to get hotter.
>

Cool! Glad we could help. The bleeding may be caused by your iron
being too hot. Less heat is required to get through magazine paper than
it takes to get through photo paper. Try turning your iron down a notch
or two. Experimenting is cheap when the paper is free.

Kerry


andrewmv@... wrote:

> I made a run with the magazine paper, and got dramatically better results.
>
> The Dell laser printer doesn't have a straight though paper path, but I had no difficulty feeding magazine paper directly into the loop-around feed though the manual paper tray - even loading up multiple sheets to do successive copies worked fine.
>
> The paper bubbled in places from the heat of the fuser, and I could smell chemicals burning off the page, but everything came though without jamming or wrinkling.
>
> I scrubbed the toner off one of my earlier boards with acetone, gave it a good scrubbing with ordinary dish-soap and water, dried it, preheated it with the iron, then laid on the pattern.
>
> I put solid pressure on it for 5-6 minutes, dropped it in a bowl of hot water, let it soak for about 20 minutes, and peeled off the paper.
>
> Nothing got left behind on the paper at all, and the results were almost usable on the first attempt. Some of the traces have small breaks in them, and there's some bleeding where I believe I applied too much pressure. I could probably use this board with some resist ink and cutting.
>
> There's some tweaking left to do, and I hope to get better results yet when I get some new boards I haven't over-scoured, but this is definitely a good start.
>
> Thanks for all the advise!
>
> -Andrew
>

On 21/04/2010, at 11:00 PM, Kerry Wentworth wrote:

> or two. Experimenting is cheap when the paper is free.

Actually, we don't get any magazines and not a lot of catalogues (I think the letterbox stuffers think the house is abandoned) - where is everyone sourcing this stuff?

PG

We don't really get any magazines at our house, either - photo paper was
more readily available.

Most business with lobbies or waiting rooms have old magazines they get rid
of regularly. I just asked the front desk at my for some old magazines.

A public library is another good source - they tend to recycle (or just
plaint throw away) massive quantities of periodicals every month.

-Andrew

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 21/04/2010, at 11:00 PM, Kerry Wentworth wrote:
> > or two. Experimenting is cheap when the paper is free.
>
> Actually, we don't get any magazines and not a lot of catalogues (I think
> the letterbox stuffers think the house is abandoned) - where is everyone
> sourcing this stuff?
>
> PG
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now I guess I have a reason for all those free trade magazine subscriptions!

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
> We don't really get any magazines at our house, either - photo paper was
> more readily available.
>
> Most business with lobbies or waiting rooms have old magazines they get rid
> of regularly. I just asked the front desk at my for some old magazines.
>
> A public library is another good source - they tend to recycle (or just
> plaint throw away) massive quantities of periodicals every month.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21/04/2010, at 11:00 PM, Kerry Wentworth wrote:
>> > or two. Experimenting is cheap when the paper is free.
>>
>> Actually, we don't get any magazines and not a lot of catalogues (I think
>> the letterbox stuffers think the house is abandoned) - where is everyone
>> sourcing this stuff?
>>
>> PG
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



--
Paul Mateer, AA9GG
Elan Engineering Corp.
www.elanengr.com
NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003

I suppose it depends on where you live. Do they recycle where you
live? Friends, neighbors or relatives might help you out. Bookstores
and such often have unsold, out of date magazines that they toss. Push
comes to shove, go out and buy the largest(most pages), cheapest
magazine you can find. Just make sure it is glossy "clay" paper, like
People magazine.

Kerry


Piers Goodhew wrote:

> On 21/04/2010, at 11:00 PM, Kerry Wentworth wrote:
>
>> or two. Experimenting is cheap when the paper is free.
>>
>
> Actually, we don't get any magazines and not a lot of catalogues (I think the letterbox stuffers think the house is abandoned) - where is everyone sourcing this stuff?
>
> PG
>

With a lot of help from this list and a lot of experimentation, I'm having
much better success with my toner transfers. The process that finally ended
up working for me for creating my first usable double-sided board went like
this:

1) Discard overused boards. It's true you can transfer toner onto a board
and then clean it back off and try again if it doesn't come out the first
time. I had diminishing returns after my seventh or eighth try, and found
it better to stop trying to salvage the board.

2) Line up the both sides of the board. I held the two sheets of magazine
paper up to a worklight to line everything up, and then taped them together
on one side with ordinary Scotch tape.

3) Clean board blank with acetone, scour with Scotchbrite pad, clean with
dish-soap and hot water.

4) Pre-heat board to about 200F.

5) Place the board between the taped-together patterns, using the taped-edge
as a guide.

6) Provide 1-minutes of constant pressure with the iron, then about
5-minutes of moving pressure.

7) Flip the board and repeat.

8) Drop the still-hot board immediately into hot water for 10-minutes.

9) Remove paper. Touch up any broken traces with a sharpie (industrial
permanent ink, micro-fine point). Break any shorted traces with an x-acto
knife.

10) To ensure that both surfaces of the board get evenly etched, I put small
squares of foam mounting tape in inconspicuous corners of the bottom of my
board. I use the 3M kind - this stuff's about 3-4mm thick, which gives
enough clearance from the bottom of the tank. I left the paper on one side
so it wouldn't stick to the tank.

11) I submerged the board in FeCl in a simple closeable plastic container.
I held it over the stovetop on medium heat and hand-agitated the tank...I
didn't measure the temperature here, but it was just cool enough to be able
to easily hold the tank without gloves.

I checked the progress of the etching intermittently, and found it barely
took 5 minutes to get complete removal of unwanted copper without any
etching into my traces. I dunked the board in cool water in a separate
plastic container to stop the etching, and now have a nice looking,
perfectly aligned double-sided board ready for drilling.

-Andrew

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 7:03 PM, andrewmv@... <andrewmv@...>wrote:

>
>
> I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer method,
> and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
>
> Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while others
> stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time, but
> my results are always similar.
>
> It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but I
> never get the whole thing.
>
> My current process is:
>
> 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
> Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> sandpaper
> 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
> clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side down
> on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I
> move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
> minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and
> let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
>
> I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring, cleaning,
> or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up to my
> full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened results.
>
> I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water, as
> I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer
> whatsoever.
>
> Any tips or ideas?
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First off, thanks for the followup after soliciting advice. It's a big help to those who come later!


I've had similar issues with transfer methods no matter what I used for a transfer medium, be it paper, magazine paper, photo paper, press&peel blue, etc. The best luck I've had for boards that didn't require sub 0.02" pitch was the paper used for peel off mailing labels after the labels have been peeled off.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
>
> With a lot of help from this list and a lot of experimentation, I'm having
> much better success with my toner transfers. The process that finally ended
> up working for me for creating my first usable double-sided board went like
> this:
>
> 1) Discard overused boards. It's true you can transfer toner onto a board
> and then clean it back off and try again if it doesn't come out the first
> time. I had diminishing returns after my seventh or eighth try, and found
> it better to stop trying to salvage the board.
>
> 2) Line up the both sides of the board. I held the two sheets of magazine
> paper up to a worklight to line everything up, and then taped them together
> on one side with ordinary Scotch tape.
>
> 3) Clean board blank with acetone, scour with Scotchbrite pad, clean with
> dish-soap and hot water.
>
> 4) Pre-heat board to about 200F.
>
> 5) Place the board between the taped-together patterns, using the taped-edge
> as a guide.
>
> 6) Provide 1-minutes of constant pressure with the iron, then about
> 5-minutes of moving pressure.
>
> 7) Flip the board and repeat.
>
> 8) Drop the still-hot board immediately into hot water for 10-minutes.
>
> 9) Remove paper. Touch up any broken traces with a sharpie (industrial
> permanent ink, micro-fine point). Break any shorted traces with an x-acto
> knife.
>
> 10) To ensure that both surfaces of the board get evenly etched, I put small
> squares of foam mounting tape in inconspicuous corners of the bottom of my
> board. I use the 3M kind - this stuff's about 3-4mm thick, which gives
> enough clearance from the bottom of the tank. I left the paper on one side
> so it wouldn't stick to the tank.
>
> 11) I submerged the board in FeCl in a simple closeable plastic container.
> I held it over the stovetop on medium heat and hand-agitated the tank...I
> didn't measure the temperature here, but it was just cool enough to be able
> to easily hold the tank without gloves.
>
> I checked the progress of the etching intermittently, and found it barely
> took 5 minutes to get complete removal of unwanted copper without any
> etching into my traces. I dunked the board in cool water in a separate
> plastic container to stop the etching, and now have a nice looking,
> perfectly aligned double-sided board ready for drilling.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 7:03 PM, andrewmv@... <andrewmv@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer method,
> > and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
> >
> > Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while others
> > stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time, but
> > my results are always similar.
> >
> > It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though, but I
> > never get the whole thing.
> >
> > My current process is:
> >
> > 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
> > Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> > 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> > sandpaper
> > 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> > 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
> > clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> > 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side down
> > on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> > immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and I
> > move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
> > minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> > 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water, and
> > let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
> >
> > I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring, cleaning,
> > or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up to my
> > full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened results.
> >
> > I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water, as
> > I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner transfer
> > whatsoever.
> >
> > Any tips or ideas?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

That stuff, as I understand it, is simple wax paper.

I tried iron-on T-shirt transfer paper, which appears to be very similar,
and didn't require any soaking to remove, but found it very difficult to
align because it never sticks to the board.

Then again, I've improved many other parts of the process since giving up on
wax paper, so it might be worth a revisit.

-Andrew

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:40 PM, bownes <bownes@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> First off, thanks for the followup after soliciting advice. It's a big help
> to those who come later!
>
> I've had similar issues with transfer methods no matter what I used for a
> transfer medium, be it paper, magazine paper, photo paper, press&peel blue,
> etc. The best luck I've had for boards that didn't require sub 0.02" pitch
> was the paper used for peel off mailing labels after the labels have been
> peeled off.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
> >
> > With a lot of help from this list and a lot of experimentation, I'm
> having
> > much better success with my toner transfers. The process that finally
> ended
> > up working for me for creating my first usable double-sided board went
> like
> > this:
> >
> > 1) Discard overused boards. It's true you can transfer toner onto a board
> > and then clean it back off and try again if it doesn't come out the first
> > time. I had diminishing returns after my seventh or eighth try, and found
> > it better to stop trying to salvage the board.
> >
> > 2) Line up the both sides of the board. I held the two sheets of magazine
> > paper up to a worklight to line everything up, and then taped them
> together
> > on one side with ordinary Scotch tape.
> >
> > 3) Clean board blank with acetone, scour with Scotchbrite pad, clean with
> > dish-soap and hot water.
> >
> > 4) Pre-heat board to about 200F.
> >
> > 5) Place the board between the taped-together patterns, using the
> taped-edge
> > as a guide.
> >
> > 6) Provide 1-minutes of constant pressure with the iron, then about
> > 5-minutes of moving pressure.
> >
> > 7) Flip the board and repeat.
> >
> > 8) Drop the still-hot board immediately into hot water for 10-minutes.
> >
> > 9) Remove paper. Touch up any broken traces with a sharpie (industrial
> > permanent ink, micro-fine point). Break any shorted traces with an x-acto
> > knife.
> >
> > 10) To ensure that both surfaces of the board get evenly etched, I put
> small
> > squares of foam mounting tape in inconspicuous corners of the bottom of
> my
> > board. I use the 3M kind - this stuff's about 3-4mm thick, which gives
> > enough clearance from the bottom of the tank. I left the paper on one
> side
> > so it wouldn't stick to the tank.
> >
> > 11) I submerged the board in FeCl in a simple closeable plastic
> container.
> > I held it over the stovetop on medium heat and hand-agitated the tank...I
> > didn't measure the temperature here, but it was just cool enough to be
> able
> > to easily hold the tank without gloves.
> >
> > I checked the progress of the etching intermittently, and found it barely
> > took 5 minutes to get complete removal of unwanted copper without any
> > etching into my traces. I dunked the board in cool water in a separate
> > plastic container to stop the etching, and now have a nice looking,
> > perfectly aligned double-sided board ready for drilling.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 7:03 PM, andrewmv@... <andrewmv@...>wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
> method,
> > > and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
> > >
> > > Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while
> others
> > > stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time,
> but
> > > my results are always similar.
> > >
> > > It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though,
> but I
> > > never get the whole thing.
> > >
> > > My current process is:
> > >
> > > 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
> > > Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> > > 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> > > sandpaper
> > > 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> > > 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
> > > clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> > > 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side
> down
> > > on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> > > immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and
> I
> > > move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
> > > minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> > > 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water,
> and
> > > let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
> > >
> > > I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
> cleaning,
> > > or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up
> to my
> > > full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened
> results.
> > >
> > > I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water,
> as
> > > I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner
> transfer
> > > whatsoever.
> > >
> > > Any tips or ideas?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are being very imprecise in your wording.

The paper that stickers come on is not wax paper, it is a plastic coated paper similar to silicone release paper.

There are many kinds of Tshirt transfer paper. Inkjet Tshirt transfer paper will -not- work as it is coated with a plastisol that covers the entire sheet, and will transfer the entire area to the copper. There are other types for inkjet dye sub that act only as a carrier, and another type for laser dye sub that also acts only as a carrier but with different properties. And yet another for a combination process that is used with regular color laser toner, that in a two step process transfers only the area covered by toner.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
>
> That stuff, as I understand it, is simple wax paper.
>
> I tried iron-on T-shirt transfer paper, which appears to be very similar,
> and didn't require any soaking to remove, but found it very difficult to
> align because it never sticks to the board.
>
> Then again, I've improved many other parts of the process since giving up on
> wax paper, so it might be worth a revisit.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:40 PM, bownes <bownes@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > First off, thanks for the followup after soliciting advice. It's a big help
> > to those who come later!
> >
> > I've had similar issues with transfer methods no matter what I used for a
> > transfer medium, be it paper, magazine paper, photo paper, press&peel blue,
> > etc. The best luck I've had for boards that didn't require sub 0.02" pitch
> > was the paper used for peel off mailing labels after the labels have been
> > peeled off.
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@> wrote:
> > >
> > > With a lot of help from this list and a lot of experimentation, I'm
> > having
> > > much better success with my toner transfers. The process that finally
> > ended
> > > up working for me for creating my first usable double-sided board went
> > like
> > > this:
> > >
> > > 1) Discard overused boards. It's true you can transfer toner onto a board
> > > and then clean it back off and try again if it doesn't come out the first
> > > time. I had diminishing returns after my seventh or eighth try, and found
> > > it better to stop trying to salvage the board.
> > >
> > > 2) Line up the both sides of the board. I held the two sheets of magazine
> > > paper up to a worklight to line everything up, and then taped them
> > together
> > > on one side with ordinary Scotch tape.
> > >
> > > 3) Clean board blank with acetone, scour with Scotchbrite pad, clean with
> > > dish-soap and hot water.
> > >
> > > 4) Pre-heat board to about 200F.
> > >
> > > 5) Place the board between the taped-together patterns, using the
> > taped-edge
> > > as a guide.
> > >
> > > 6) Provide 1-minutes of constant pressure with the iron, then about
> > > 5-minutes of moving pressure.
> > >
> > > 7) Flip the board and repeat.
> > >
> > > 8) Drop the still-hot board immediately into hot water for 10-minutes.
> > >
> > > 9) Remove paper. Touch up any broken traces with a sharpie (industrial
> > > permanent ink, micro-fine point). Break any shorted traces with an x-acto
> > > knife.
> > >
> > > 10) To ensure that both surfaces of the board get evenly etched, I put
> > small
> > > squares of foam mounting tape in inconspicuous corners of the bottom of
> > my
> > > board. I use the 3M kind - this stuff's about 3-4mm thick, which gives
> > > enough clearance from the bottom of the tank. I left the paper on one
> > side
> > > so it wouldn't stick to the tank.
> > >
> > > 11) I submerged the board in FeCl in a simple closeable plastic
> > container.
> > > I held it over the stovetop on medium heat and hand-agitated the tank...I
> > > didn't measure the temperature here, but it was just cool enough to be
> > able
> > > to easily hold the tank without gloves.
> > >
> > > I checked the progress of the etching intermittently, and found it barely
> > > took 5 minutes to get complete removal of unwanted copper without any
> > > etching into my traces. I dunked the board in cool water in a separate
> > > plastic container to stop the etching, and now have a nice looking,
> > > perfectly aligned double-sided board ready for drilling.
> > >
> > > -Andrew
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 7:03 PM, andrewmv@ <andrewmv@>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
> > method,
> > > > and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
> > > >
> > > > Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board, while
> > others
> > > > stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing time,
> > but
> > > > my results are always similar.
> > > >
> > > > It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come though,
> > but I
> > > > never get the whole thing.
> > > >
> > > > My current process is:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper with a
> > > > Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> > > > 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> > > > sandpaper
> > > > 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> > > > 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric
> > > > clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC thermometer.
> > > > 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern toner-side
> > down
> > > > on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> > > > immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should, and
> > I
> > > > move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two full
> > > > minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> > > > 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot water,
> > and
> > > > let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
> > > >
> > > > I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
> > cleaning,
> > > > or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way up
> > to my
> > > > full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened
> > results.
> > > >
> > > > I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD water,
> > as
> > > > I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner
> > transfer
> > > > whatsoever.
> > > >
> > > > Any tips or ideas?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Steve,

This makes sense - Inkjet Tshirt transfer paper is exactly what I was trying
to use, but I didn't realize how many variations there were in these kinds
of papers.

I'm honestly having very good luck with magazine paper, but there's still
much room for improvement. Now that I have a system that works, it's easier
to switch out variables.

-Andrew

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:28 AM, alienrelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
> You are being very imprecise in your wording.
>
> The paper that stickers come on is not wax paper, it is a plastic coated
> paper similar to silicone release paper.
>
> There are many kinds of Tshirt transfer paper. Inkjet Tshirt transfer paper
> will -not- work as it is coated with a plastisol that covers the entire
> sheet, and will transfer the entire area to the copper. There are other
> types for inkjet dye sub that act only as a carrier, and another type for
> laser dye sub that also acts only as a carrier but with different
> properties. And yet another for a combination process that is used with
> regular color laser toner, that in a two step process transfers only the
> area covered by toner.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:
> >
> > That stuff, as I understand it, is simple wax paper.
> >
> > I tried iron-on T-shirt transfer paper, which appears to be very similar,
> > and didn't require any soaking to remove, but found it very difficult to
> > align because it never sticks to the board.
> >
> > Then again, I've improved many other parts of the process since giving up
> on
> > wax paper, so it might be worth a revisit.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:40 PM, bownes <bownes@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > First off, thanks for the followup after soliciting advice. It's a big
> help
> > > to those who come later!
> > >
> > > I've had similar issues with transfer methods no matter what I used for
> a
> > > transfer medium, be it paper, magazine paper, photo paper, press&peel
> blue,
> > > etc. The best luck I've had for boards that didn't require sub 0.02"
> pitch
> > > was the paper used for peel off mailing labels after the labels have
> been
> > > peeled off.
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > With a lot of help from this list and a lot of experimentation, I'm
> > > having
> > > > much better success with my toner transfers. The process that finally
> > > ended
> > > > up working for me for creating my first usable double-sided board
> went
> > > like
> > > > this:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Discard overused boards. It's true you can transfer toner onto a
> board
> > > > and then clean it back off and try again if it doesn't come out the
> first
> > > > time. I had diminishing returns after my seventh or eighth try, and
> found
> > > > it better to stop trying to salvage the board.
> > > >
> > > > 2) Line up the both sides of the board. I held the two sheets of
> magazine
> > > > paper up to a worklight to line everything up, and then taped them
> > > together
> > > > on one side with ordinary Scotch tape.
> > > >
> > > > 3) Clean board blank with acetone, scour with Scotchbrite pad, clean
> with
> > > > dish-soap and hot water.
> > > >
> > > > 4) Pre-heat board to about 200F.
> > > >
> > > > 5) Place the board between the taped-together patterns, using the
> > > taped-edge
> > > > as a guide.
> > > >
> > > > 6) Provide 1-minutes of constant pressure with the iron, then about
> > > > 5-minutes of moving pressure.
> > > >
> > > > 7) Flip the board and repeat.
> > > >
> > > > 8) Drop the still-hot board immediately into hot water for
> 10-minutes.
> > > >
> > > > 9) Remove paper. Touch up any broken traces with a sharpie
> (industrial
> > > > permanent ink, micro-fine point). Break any shorted traces with an
> x-acto
> > > > knife.
> > > >
> > > > 10) To ensure that both surfaces of the board get evenly etched, I
> put
> > > small
> > > > squares of foam mounting tape in inconspicuous corners of the bottom
> of
> > > my
> > > > board. I use the 3M kind - this stuff's about 3-4mm thick, which
> gives
> > > > enough clearance from the bottom of the tank. I left the paper on one
> > > side
> > > > so it wouldn't stick to the tank.
> > > >
> > > > 11) I submerged the board in FeCl in a simple closeable plastic
> > > container.
> > > > I held it over the stovetop on medium heat and hand-agitated the
> tank...I
> > > > didn't measure the temperature here, but it was just cool enough to
> be
> > > able
> > > > to easily hold the tank without gloves.
> > > >
> > > > I checked the progress of the etching intermittently, and found it
> barely
> > > > took 5 minutes to get complete removal of unwanted copper without any
> > > > etching into my traces. I dunked the board in cool water in a
> separate
> > > > plastic container to stop the etching, and now have a nice looking,
> > > > perfectly aligned double-sided board ready for drilling.
> > > >
> > > > -Andrew
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 7:03 PM, andrewmv@ <andrewmv@>wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I've just started attempting my first PCBs with the toner transfer
> > > method,
> > > > > and I'm consistently getting terrible results.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some sections of the pattern transfer flawlessly to the board,
> while
> > > others
> > > > > stay on the paper. I've tried varying heat, pressure, and ironing
> time,
> > > but
> > > > > my results are always similar.
> > > > >
> > > > > It never seems to be the same parts of the pattern that come
> though,
> > > but I
> > > > > never get the whole thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > My current process is:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Print the patterns in black toner on medium-gloss photo paper
> with a
> > > > > Dell 5310n laser printer at my office.
> > > > > 2) Scour the board blank in two orthogonal directions with 150 grit
> > > > > sandpaper
> > > > > 3) Clean the board blank with pure acetone
> > > > > 4) Preheat the board to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit with an
> electric
> > > > > clothes iron. I'm measuring with a handheld infrared HVAC
> thermometer.
> > > > > 5) With the iron at about 400 degrees, I place the pattern
> toner-side
> > > down
> > > > > on the board, and apply pressure with the iron. The pattern almost
> > > > > immediately fuses to the copper, as I've seen suggested it should,
> and
> > > I
> > > > > move the iron around the pattern regularly, applying a least two
> full
> > > > > minutes of heat and pressure to every part of the board.
> > > > > 6) I immediately place the board and paper into a bowl of hot
> water,
> > > and
> > > > > let it soak for 10-20 minutes.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've tried variations on this...I initially skipped the scouring,
> > > cleaning,
> > > > > or preheating the board. I've tried using mild pressure all the way
> up
> > > to my
> > > > > full body weight. None of these significantly improved or worsened
> > > results.
> > > > >
> > > > > I tried letting the board fully cool before placing it into COLD
> water,
> > > as
> > > > > I've seen suggested, and found that there was virtually no toner
> > > transfer
> > > > > whatsoever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any tips or ideas?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]