Homebrew PCBs

I've done quite a bit of Googling, and all I find are diagrams and measurements of edge-connector sockets. Or just the outer dimensions of the PCB edge-connector. I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
 Steve Greenfield
Electronic Engineering Technician student
Electronic Technician 20+ years
CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist

The correct pattern is determined by the mating connector. You should
find the recommended pattern in it's datasheet, like this for example:
<http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/39_737.pdf>

If there is nothing in the datasheet for your connector ask the
supplier, or eyeball it. There are some differences between the
different brands of connectors, some have one contact, some have them
split in two, etc..


Remember that gold plating the edge connector usually requires you (or
the board shop) to extend the tongues out and run them together in a
shorting bar, so they can be contacted for gold plating. Have a look
at an extremely bad image here:
<http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:d91SlFCXorXWaM:http://www.ettech.com.tw/English/picture/FR-4,%20Edge%20plating,%20Sink%20Milling,%20Medical%20PCB-1%20.JPG>

ST

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> I've done quite a bit of Googling, and all I find are diagrams and measurements of edge-connector sockets. Or just the outer dimensions of the PCB edge-connector. I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>  Steve Greenfield
> Electronic Engineering Technician student
> Electronic Technician 20+ years
> CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

In article <181061.84266.qm@...>,
   Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> I've done quite a bit of Googling, and all I find are diagrams and
> measurements of edge-connector sockets. Or just the outer dimensions of
> the PCB edge-connector. I am looking for the specs for trace width,
> spacing, and length.

There are, or at least were, a number of different pitches used.

-- 
Stuart
http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html

All that tells me is how deep the socket is, and the pitch. I can find diagrams for the sockets all day. I know the pitch, because I select it. What I need to know is the clearance between pads. And I can't eyeball it, this is for a class and we are specifically not allowed to "eyeball" or estimate anything. I have to show where I got my numbers.

If this were for my use only, I could toss a board under my microscope with a ruler and estimate it very closely.

Heck, this book I'm working out of is pretty old. Most of the assignments require 20/20 rules for logic and small signal analog.

Thanks,
Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> The correct pattern is determined by the mating connector. You should
> find the recommended pattern in it's datasheet, like this for example:
> <http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/39_737.pdf>
> 
> If there is nothing in the datasheet for your connector ask the
> supplier, or eyeball it. There are some differences between the
> different brands of connectors, some have one contact, some have them
> split in two, etc..
> 
> 
> Remember that gold plating the edge connector usually requires you (or
> the board shop) to extend the tongues out and run them together in a
> shorting bar, so they can be contacted for gold plating. Have a look
> at an extremely bad image here:
> <http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:d91SlFCXorXWaM:http://www.ettech.com.tw/English/picture/FR-4,%20Edge%20plating,%20Sink%20Milling,%20Medical%20PCB-1%20.JPG>
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> > I've done quite a bit of Googling, and all I find are diagrams and measurements of edge-connector sockets. Or just the outer dimensions of the PCB edge-connector. I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >  Steve Greenfield
> > Electronic Engineering Technician student
> > Electronic Technician 20+ years
> > CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> > IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

>  I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.

and

 > What I need to know is the clearance between pads.


Isn't trace/pad spacing at least partly a function of the voltage are 
expected to carry?  And, I understand, that as you approach RF 
frequencies, the rules change--or at adherence becomes much more 
meaningful to correct outcomes (e.g., see this from TI: 
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/szza009/szza009.pdf ).

Have you looked at the manufacturability layout hints provided by PCB 
manufacturing facilities, e.g., this from ExpressPCB:  
http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Tips.htm , or this from a 
consultant: http://www.pdcamerica.com/guidelines.htm ?

There are standards for PCB design, too; a page such as 
http://www.smps.us/pcb-design.html will give you a set of terms to feed 
to Google.

Or punt with Wikipedia:  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board .

All that should give you enough numbers to take any number of sides to 
the discussion.

HTH,
Daniel

If you'd actually had a look at the datasheet I linked to you'd see
the recommended _MALE_ pattern in there, including clearance for this
particular connector. It's always like this, the female connector
prescribes the pattern for card edge.

Since you seem to be talking specifically about the ISA slot, here are
the mechanical dimensions:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir//////oth/sokos/isa.txt>

The correct publication would be IEEE-P996, but since it never got
finished it is hard to get. Probably the original IBM PC
specification, or even earlier telecom specifications (from which the
ISA slot was inherited) will also have the dimensions.

If that isn't "official" enough I again suggest to go by what your
socket manufacturer says. For example this datasheet of the ISA
connector has _again_ the recommended male finger pattern in it.
<http://www.hirose.co.jp/cataloge_hp/e54801112.pdf>

All this information was easy to find in 5 minutes with google. I put
it down to stress while finishing your project.

ST

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 12:57 AM, alienrelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> All that tells me is how deep the socket is, and the pitch. I can find diagrams for the sockets all day. I know the pitch, because I select it. What I need to know is the clearance between pads. And I can't eyeball it, this is for a class and we are specifically not allowed to "eyeball" or estimate anything. I have to show where I got my numbers.
>
> If this were for my use only, I could toss a board under my microscope with a ruler and estimate it very closely.
>
> Heck, this book I'm working out of is pretty old. Most of the assignments require 20/20 rules for logic and small signal analog.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>>
>> The correct pattern is determined by the mating connector. You should
>> find the recommended pattern in it's datasheet, like this for example:
>> <http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/39_737.pdf>
>>
>> If there is nothing in the datasheet for your connector ask the
>> supplier, or eyeball it. There are some differences between the
>> different brands of connectors, some have one contact, some have them
>> split in two, etc..
>>
>>
>> Remember that gold plating the edge connector usually requires you (or
>> the board shop) to extend the tongues out and run them together in a
>> shorting bar, so they can be contacted for gold plating. Have a look
>> at an extremely bad image here:
>> <http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:d91SlFCXorXWaM:http://www.ettech.com.tw/English/picture/FR-4,%20Edge%20plating,%20Sink%20Milling,%20Medical%20PCB-1%20.JPG>
>>
>> ST
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>> > I've done quite a bit of Googling, and all I find are diagrams and measurements of edge-connector sockets. Or just the outer dimensions of the PCB edge-connector. I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.
>> >
>> > Any ideas?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >  Steve Greenfield
>> > Electronic Engineering Technician student
>> > Electronic Technician 20+ years
>> > CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
>> > IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> If you'd actually had a look at the datasheet I linked to you'd see
> the recommended _MALE_ pattern in there, including clearance for this
> particular connector. It's always like this, the female connector
> prescribes the pattern for card edge.

Since I did actually look at the first link you gave:
http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/39_737.pdf
 I saw that on page two it did -not- show the width of the male edge connector -traces-, nor did it give the spacing between them. You cannot infer that from the pin pitch. Do you really think I'm so dim that I can't figure out that 0.1 inch pitch socket means 0.1 inch pad spacing on the card edge?

The spacing between the traces of an edge connector are based on tolerances. Too close together and you run the risk of cross-connections if all the tolerances are at their worst. Too far apart (therefore too narrow) and there may be less contact area and therefore the specs for current ratings are no longer valid.

> Since you seem to be talking specifically about the ISA slot, here are
> the mechanical dimensions:
> <http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir//////oth/sokos/isa.txt>

Thanks! That one gives what I need, pad width of 0.060 +-0.005 on 0.100 +-0.005 inch centers.

It wasn't that I need to make an ISA card, but that I was trying to be clear about what I was looking for. And that is an official specification I can point to when my instructor asks for justification for the 8 to 12 finger edge connectors on my assignments.

> The correct publication would be IEEE-P996, but since it never got
> finished it is hard to get. Probably the original IBM PC
> specification, or even earlier telecom specifications (from which the
> ISA slot was inherited) will also have the dimensions.
> 
> If that isn't "official" enough I again suggest to go by what your
> socket manufacturer says. For example this datasheet of the ISA
> connector has _again_ the recommended male finger pattern in it.
> <http://www.hirose.co.jp/cataloge_hp/e54801112.pdf>

That one shows what the link you gave in your other email did not, pad width on page 5. Thank you.
 
> All this information was easy to find in 5 minutes with google. I put
> it down to stress while finishing your project.
> 
> ST

Wow, after all this time... So doing the work, then asking for help isn't enough now? Are members here subject to your scorn simply for asking for help at all? Are you trying to say I didn't try looking at all before asking?

Yes, I am very stressed. I've got until the 17th to turn in everything. I was not warned that the second from the last chapter in the last book has more work in it than the entire rest of the book. I was left to find a schematic capture/PCB program on my own. With five days left, I discover that the program I've chosen seems to be unable to handle an edge connector, and now have to find another program and hope I can learn it well enough -and- that I don't find out I have to start over again in a day or two.

Steve Greenfield

> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 12:57 AM, alienrelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> > All that tells me is how deep the socket is, and the pitch. I can find diagrams for the sockets all day. I know the pitch, because I select it. What I need to know is the clearance between pads. And I can't eyeball it, this is for a class and we are specifically not allowed to "eyeball" or estimate anything. I have to show where I got my numbers.
> >
> > If this were for my use only, I could toss a board under my microscope with a ruler and estimate it very closely.
> >
> > Heck, this book I'm working out of is pretty old. Most of the assignments require 20/20 rules for logic and small signal analog.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >>
> >> The correct pattern is determined by the mating connector. You should
> >> find the recommended pattern in it's datasheet, like this for example:
> >> <http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/39_737.pdf>
> >>
> >> If there is nothing in the datasheet for your connector ask the
> >> supplier, or eyeball it. There are some differences between the
> >> different brands of connectors, some have one contact, some have them
> >> split in two, etc..
> >>
> >>
> >> Remember that gold plating the edge connector usually requires you (or
> >> the board shop) to extend the tongues out and run them together in a
> >> shorting bar, so they can be contacted for gold plating. Have a look
> >> at an extremely bad image here:
> >> <http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:d91SlFCXorXWaM:http://www.ettech.com.tw/English/picture/FR-4,%20Edge%20plating,%20Sink%20Milling,%20Medical%20PCB-1%20.JPG>
> >>
> >> ST
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@> wrote:
> >> > I've done quite a bit of Googling, and all I find are diagrams and measurements of edge-connector sockets. Or just the outer dimensions of the PCB edge-connector. I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.
> >> >
> >> > Any ideas?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >  Steve Greenfield
> >> > Electronic Engineering Technician student
> >> > Electronic Technician 20+ years
> >> > CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> >> > IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
> >> >
> >> >

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "D. Daniel McGlothin" <ddm@...> wrote:
>
>  >  I am looking for the specs for trace width, spacing, and length.
> 
> and
> 
>  > What I need to know is the clearance between pads.
> 
> 
> Isn't trace/pad spacing at least partly a function of the voltage are 
> expected to carry? 

No, not for an edge connector. In that case, the pad spacing of the traces on the edge are set, and the max voltage and current are based on that. The width/spacing of the traces inserted into an edge connector are based on tolerances. 

Trace fingers too wide, and a trace can violate spacing from the socket connectors on either side. Or even short to it, if all the other tolerances are at their worst. You can slide an edge connector a little bit left-and-right or you'd not be able to get the card in, that clearance has a tolerance.

If the trace fingers are too narrow, then they might not make full contact with the socket connectors and the connector specs for current will no longer be valid.

A particular pin-pitch edge connector will have a maximum voltage and maximum current per line. If you need more current, you parallel more lines. If you need more voltage, you use a different connector.

Steve Greenfield

My apologies for the first link, I merely glanced at it and did not
notice the dimensions given are for the key slot not the fingers.

I'm was not sure if you looked or not, because it was really easy to
find. Since you don't seem to be picky about any particular socket
(the recommended finger width is not the same even if the pitch is) it
would have been easy to pick just any recommended pattern. It
certainly took a lot longer to ask than to find.

You can probably fake the card edge connector by using traces in any
software. All you need is the option to place soldermask free areas
and you are set. I'd avoid Eagle if you are in a pinch, that software
is missing a few bytes.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> My apologies for the first link, I merely glanced at it and did not
> notice the dimensions given are for the key slot not the fingers.

You have my apologies for my abruptness.

> I'm was not sure if you looked or not, because it was really easy to
> find. Since you don't seem to be picky about any particular socket
> (the recommended finger width is not the same even if the pitch is) it
> would have been easy to pick just any recommended pattern. It
> certainly took a lot longer to ask than to find.

Of course I looked. You do know me, right? I'm Mr. retentive, the guy who runs the list and twenty others. The one who posts loads of stuff in the Links. The one who writes and rewrites those monthly reminders and tips for newbies.

I scanned websites and PDFs 'til my eyes ached. Again, knowing exactly the right term to include can make all the difference. I tried many combinations but obviously I either didn't use the correct words or missed the links.

> You can probably fake the card edge connector by using traces in any
> software. All you need is the option to place soldermask free areas
> and you are set. I'd avoid Eagle if you are in a pinch, that software
> is missing a few bytes.

DipTrace doesn't seem to want to allow me to fake the edge fingers. I tried. I got help on figuring out how to draw arbitrary copper shapes in the signal layer, but it won't let me attach an air-wire to it. I tried dropping a pad on one end of the shape and then just ignore the error warnings, but it will route all but the last airwire I laid down.

Ack! Eagle is the one I changed to yesterday. I have to say, as others have said on the Eagle Yahoogroup, the schematics are not really "publication ready".

For the class, I need to be able to do the whole nine yards - the copper, of course, and the solder mask, BoM, silkscreen, drill file, etc. and either be able to export in a format I can load into AutoCAD, or be able to build my own title blocks and borders in whatever PCB program I end up using. And I have to figure this all out very quickly.

I'm sure there are probably very simple ways to get around these limitations. I very much like Diptrace, very intuitive to get started in. But I don't know what those workarounds are, and have very little time to figure them out. And more than half the boards I must draw in this chapter have edge connectors.

Steve Greenfield

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 5:00 PM, alienrelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
> Of course I looked. You do know me, right? I'm Mr. retentive, the guy who runs the list and twenty others. The one who posts
> loads of stuff in the Links. The one who writes and rewrites those monthly reminders and tips for newbies.

Yes, and that is why you must live up to a higher standard than
others! Probably just unlucky search terms as you say but it popped
right up with google. (And some payment for those annoying monthly
reminders is really in order don't you think?) ;-)

> DipTrace doesn't seem to want to allow me to fake the edge fingers. I tried. I got help on figuring out how to draw arbitrary >copper shapes in the signal layer, but it won't let me attach an air-wire to it. I tried dropping a pad on one end of the shape >and > then just ignore the error warnings, but it will route all but the last airwire I laid down.


Try to _really_ bodge it no holes barred. If it won't let you connect
air aires try to draw a line on the copper layer, anything to get the
right output, never mind DRC errors or schematic consistency.

With limited software you sometimes have to do really crazy things, I
have to fight against Eagle on a regular basis because there is just
no way to do many things properly.

There is also the option to draw almost everything in DipTrace and
then edit the gerbers with different software. I do this sometimes
when there is really no other way to get it done. Of course it is
horrible should you ever need to change anything. But it'll be a lot
faster to figure out how to make a couple of changes in another
software compared to doing the whole thing.

Anyway, before you try to use Eagle I recommend to lock up all sharp
things and protect your wrists with duct tape just in case you get
frustrated and try to bite through your arteries or something, in an
effort to end the suffering. ;-)


ST

Stefan - I'm sure glad I'm not the only person who gets frustrated with Eagle! Diptrace is pretty good, and ExpressSCH/PCB is so easy - but always leaves me wishing for more flexible commands.

Ken

> Anyway, before you try to use Eagle I recommend to lock up all sharp
> things and protect your wrists with duct tape just in case you get
> frustrated and try to bite through your arteries or something, in an
> effort to end the suffering. ;-)
> 
> 
> ST
>

On 13 February 2010 17:32, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>
> Stefan - I'm sure glad I'm not the only person who gets frustrated with Eagle! Diptrace is pretty good

I would never try to learn eagle again, intuative its not, Diptrace is
just so useful i use it for all sorts of things, not even pcbs

> DipTrace doesn't seem to want to allow me to fake the edge fingers. I tried. I got help on figuring out how to draw arbitrary copper shapes in the signal layer, but it won't let me attach an air-wire to it. I tried dropping a pad on one end of the shape and then just ignore the error warnings, but it will route all but the last airwire I laid down.


That seems odd that Dip Trace can not do a Edge Connetor as Mine has a Library of several edge connectors.  I have not ever used Edge Connectors or tried to create one, but must be a way to create a Edge Connector since there is a Library of of Edge Connectors.  Or maybe I have not read all your posts to understand what you are trying to do.

The only -male- edge connectors are schematic only, no PCB pattern. I needed a pattern for the plug, not a pattern of pads for the socket.

I did manage finally, as Stefan suggested although not in these words, to hork it around and make my own 10 finger male edge connector while breaking "rules". It generates loads of errors and it seems to trigger a bug that results in part of one net not being autorouted. But I just manually routed that one last net.

Hopefully this doesn't mess up all the other files I must generate.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ben L" <bhleavi@...> wrote:

>
> 
> > DipTrace doesn't seem to want to allow me to fake the edge fingers. I tried. I got help on figuring out how to draw arbitrary copper shapes in the signal layer, but it won't let me attach an air-wire to it. I tried dropping a pad on one end of the shape and then just ignore the error warnings, but it will route all but the last airwire I laid down.
> 
> 
> That seems odd that Dip Trace can not do a Edge Connetor as Mine has a Library of several edge connectors.  I have not ever used Edge Connectors or tried to create one, but must be a way to create a Edge Connector since there is a Library of of Edge Connectors.  Or maybe I have not read all your posts to understand what you are trying to do.
>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>wrote:

>   Remember that gold plating the edge connector usually requires you (or
>
> the board shop) to extend the tongues out and run them together in a
> shorting bar, so they can be contacted for gold plating.
>

Another possibly minor issue is that the edge of the pcb should be beveled
 to accept the mating connector. Back in the 80's we used to have a lot of
S-100 boards made. When the edges were not beveled it made inserting the
boards difficult, and if I remember correctly could occasionally actually
damage pins on the connector. If the board shop did not do it, we would have
to file the bevel by hand.


-- 
carl
--------------------------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott   N2RVQ    hcarlott@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmm -- as a followup to my question about Kicad compared to diptrace et al., I tried making a 10-finger edge connector in Kicad. It was very easy to do, and when finished, it autorouted it just fine. (Usually, though, I manually route rather than autoroute.)

In Kicad, you can design any part as a schematic and you can design any physical package very easily, and save your designs into a library. Is this something Diptrace cannot do? What about other PCB programs?

Again, not trying to start any sort of religious war over which package is best ... just trying to learn more about what is available.

---, In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "alienrelics" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
> The only -male- edge connectors are schematic only, no PCB pattern. I needed a pattern for the plug, not a pattern of pads for the socket.
> 
> I did manage finally, as Stefan suggested although not in these words, to hork it around and make my own 10 finger male edge connector while breaking "rules". It generates loads of errors and it seems to trigger a bug that results in part of one net not being autorouted. But I just manually routed that one last net.
> 
> Hopefully this doesn't mess up all the other files I must generate.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ben L" <bhleavi@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > DipTrace doesn't seem to want to allow me to fake the edge fingers. I tried. I got help on figuring out how to draw arbitrary copper shapes in the signal layer, but it won't let me attach an air-wire to it. I tried dropping a pad on one end of the shape and then just ignore the error warnings, but it will route all but the last airwire I laid down.
> > 
> > 
> > That seems odd that Dip Trace can not do a Edge Connetor as Mine has a Library of several edge connectors.  I have not ever used Edge Connectors or tried to create one, but must be a way to create a Edge Connector since there is a Library of of Edge Connectors.  Or maybe I have not read all your posts to understand what you are trying to do.
> >
>

Most packages have separate component/symbol editors, such as Eagle,
Pulsonix, ...

Some, like Target, let you draw the symbols and footprints right in
layout or schematic and export them to a library.
I find it very practical to handle it this way.

ST

On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 3:39 PM, awakephd <a_wake@...> wrote:
> Hmm -- as a followup to my question about Kicad compared to diptrace et al., I tried making a 10-finger edge connector in Kicad. It was very easy to do, and when finished, it autorouted it just fine. (Usually, though, I manually route rather than autoroute.)
>
> In Kicad, you can design any part as a schematic and you can design any physical package very easily, and save your designs into a library. Is this something Diptrace cannot do? What about other PCB programs?
>
> Again, not trying to start any sort of religious war over which package is best ... just trying to learn more about what is available.
>