Homebrew PCBs

Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form a 2 sided board.  This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has actually tried it.

There have been several folks who make double sided that way - I did once and it worked just fine.  Now I use double sided board with toner transferred to both sides.  Takes a bit to make sure they line up, and I tend to have one side with most of the traces, and only a few large traces on "back" side. That way it doesn't have to line up exact.

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "demers_barry" <sdad@...> wrote:

>
> Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form a 2 sided board.  This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has actually tried it.
>

Thanks.  I have had a miserable time with the transfer method, and have
pretty much given up on that procedure.  Lining up 2 pieces of film is
leaving me stumped so far.  I am aware of using pins for mechanical
alignment, but how do I use pins and get that assembly into the glass
holding frame?  I have read where some people use a pocket arrangement by
oversizing the films, and sliding the pcb into a pocket created by gluing
the 2 pieces of film together on 3 edges.  That seems to be the most
reasonable at this point.  Laminating 2 single sided boards together sounds
about the most foolproof, but certainly not the cheapest.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> There have been several folks who make double sided that way - I did once
> and it worked just fine. Now I use double sided board with toner transferred
> to both sides. Takes a bit to make sure they line up, and I tend to have one
> side with most of the traces, and only a few large traces on "back" side.
> That way it doesn't have to line up exact.
>
> Ken H>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "demers_barry" <sdad@...> wrote:
> >
> > Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form a
> 2 sided board. This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has
> actually tried it.
> >
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Given up on Toner Transfer? You must be using the process I tried first.  Once I "finally" broke down and got a $90 laser printer and a $25 GBC laminator toner transfer works like a champ!

I've not tried the photo resist method - seems more expensive, at least the boards are.

Good luck, Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Barry Demers <sdad@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks.  I have had a miserable time with the transfer method, and have
> pretty much given up on that procedure.

On 12 February 2010 21:02, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
>
> Given up on Toner Transfer? You must be using the process I tried first.  Once I "finally" broke down and got a $90 laser printer and a $25 GBC laminator toner transfer works like a champ!
>

the ''wonderful'' gbc laminator, have you a link to a picture of it so
i can find it under whatever name its sold as in the uk?

OK, I'm always listening.  I have a laser printer.  I use it to print my
"film".  I use vellum for my media. I don't have a laminator, though I am
looking into getting one as I am current experimenting with a dry film
resist that I apply myself.  I just got some this afternoon actually and
have yet to mess with it.  I understand that a standard flat iron will work
for the application.

What has worked for me, without fail, is the positive pre sensitized boards,
which is probably what you refer to.  Pricey, true, but works great, and not
very labor intensive.  After printing out the circuit I place it and the pcb
in a holding frame.  I expose it to a uv light (though a standard light bulb
is claimed to work) for 24 minutes, put in a developer bath for 2-3 minutes,
and then etch.  I do 10 mil traces with 6 mil spacing without thought.  I
haven't tried anything less than 10, haven't need to.

The negative method should work about the same, except that I apply the film
to a plain piece of copper.  What I find attractive with the negative method
is in the printing of the film.  I use a lot of flooding.  Ground planes,
etc.  Nice thing about that is the etching time and etchant consumption is
reduced.  Bad thing is the toner consumption is up.  All that flooding is
toner.  With the negative system the part that is toner is removed, not
kept, so my toner consumption is down, along with the stingy etchant use.
Since I haven't done this yet, all I write is hearsay.  I also don't know
about my line widths.

Back to the toner transfer method.  All my transferring was done using an
iron.  Sometimes it stuck, sometimes it didn't.  Fine traces never did.
Paper type made huge amounts of difference, could never find the right kind
I guess, even after reading many of the posts here.  Maybe the laminator
will make a difference, but I'm still up against paper selection and line
widths. Perhaps you can shed some light on this, since the transfer method
may improve my making 2 sided boards.  Now that would definitely get my
attention.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 4:02 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Given up on Toner Transfer? You must be using the process I tried first.
> Once I "finally" broke down and got a $90 laser printer and a $25 GBC
> laminator toner transfer works like a champ!
>
> I've not tried the photo resist method - seems more expensive, at least the
> boards are.
>
> Good luck, Ken H>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Barry Demers <sdad@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks. I have had a miserable time with the transfer method, and have
> > pretty much given up on that procedure.
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is a link to Pulsar where I originally found the laminator and you can read how great it is:

http://www.pulsarprofx.com/PCBfx/main_site/pages/products/applicator/applicator.html

Here is an Ebay link where I purchased my laminator for $25 - not sure about getting it to England.
http://tinyurl.com/y9l66mo

I hope that tinyurl works - if not, it's item #350255922608 on ebay.  Perhaps you can find the same on in England?

Good luck,
Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> On 12 February 2010 21:02, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
> >
> > Given up on Toner Transfer? You must be using the process I tried first.  Once I "finally" broke down and got a $90 laser printer and a $25 GBC laminator toner transfer works like a champ!
> >
> 
> the ''wonderful'' gbc laminator, have you a link to a picture of it so
> i can find it under whatever name its sold as in the uk?
>

Barry, I went thru the same growing pains you are - except you have success with the photoresist.  I never paid the price (money) for the photo setup.

By far and away the best paper is the Pulsar toner transfer paper - that stuff just floats off.  I've used slick magazine paper with success and also the HP Presentation grade color laser paper is working good - just a hassle to get off.  Got to soak 20 minutes or so.

the boards MUST be clean - but I would expect no cleaner than required for photo etching, but with the pre-sensitized board, it's already cleaned. I purchase my PCB stock from a dealer here in USA - last batch I got 20 lb for $31 USD shipped to me.  It was a bunch of pieces, but the smallest piece was 3"X6" with several almost full sized sheets.  Some was really too thin, but still a decent price - all double sided.

After sanding copper with 320 to 400 grit sandpaper, I do a really good job of cleaning with alcohol.

I never had very good luck with the iron myself - I've been using the laminator for a while now - very happy with it.  In fact, so happy I ordered another as a spare.  $25 was so cheap.

Good luck,
Ken

Is there a model # for this item?  I find all sorts of prices, but maybe
they are different models.. I see a 9" pocket laminator for $25, is that
it?  I als see another "Personal Laminator" 9" for $70.  This is a bit
confusing.  Both 9", Both "Personal" apparently different?  Maybe you can
shed some light on this.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 4:55 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Barry, I went thru the same growing pains you are - except you have success
> with the photoresist. I never paid the price (money) for the photo setup.
>
> By far and away the best paper is the Pulsar toner transfer paper - that
> stuff just floats off. I've used slick magazine paper with success and also
> the HP Presentation grade color laser paper is working good - just a hassle
> to get off. Got to soak 20 minutes or so.
>
> the boards MUST be clean - but I would expect no cleaner than required for
> photo etching, but with the pre-sensitized board, it's already cleaned. I
> purchase my PCB stock from a dealer here in USA - last batch I got 20 lb for
> $31 USD shipped to me. It was a bunch of pieces, but the smallest piece was
> 3"X6" with several almost full sized sheets. Some was really too thin, but
> still a decent price - all double sided.
>
> After sanding copper with 320 to 400 grit sandpaper, I do a really good job
> of cleaning with alcohol.
>
> I never had very good luck with the iron myself - I've been using the
> laminator for a while now - very happy with it. In fact, so happy I ordered
> another as a spare. $25 was so cheap.
>
> Good luck,
> Ken
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As posted in Message #24732: (that one must not have made it prior to your question)

Here is an Ebay link where I purchased my laminator for $25 - not sure about getting it to England. http://tinyurl.com/y9l66mo

I hope that tinyurl works - if not, it's item #350255922608 on ebay. Perhaps you can find the same on in England?

This one says "GBC HeatSeal 9" Photo Laminator - 1701860" My laminator is model # 1701987 - they also carry the H-65 model number.

Good luck at finding one,
Ken H>

> 
> Back to the toner transfer method.  All my transferring was done using an
> iron.  Sometimes it stuck, sometimes it didn't.  Fine traces never did.
> Paper type made huge amounts of difference, could never find the right kind
> I guess, even after reading many of the posts here.  Maybe the laminator
> will make a difference, but I'm still up against paper selection and line
> widths. Perhaps you can shed some light on this, since the transfer method
> may improve my making 2 sided boards.  Now that would definitely get my
> attention.
> 


I've used several different methods and so far the toner transfer has been by far the simplest, and I can use cheap surplus board stock instead of the expensive photosensitive boards which I never seem to have in the size I need.

There are a few critical points, one is the right combination of printer and toner, another is proper preparation of the board prior to transfer, and another is the transfer technique. 

I use a $25 laminator now and have excellent results, I use my Xerox laser printer (OEM toner) to print on glossy catalog paper, most recently an old catalog from Action Lighting which has been working better than any other I've tried. An iron works too, but it's more difficult to get it consistent.

Clean the board with circular scrubbing with a Scotchbrite pad until it has a matte finish, then wipe it off with a paper towel dipped in acetone. Cut out the pattern you printed down to just a couple mm beyond the edges of the board. Lay the pattern on the blank board taking care not to touch either the printed surface or the clean copper. 8 passes through the laminator then dump it in cold water. After 5 minutes or so peel off the paper, sometimes you have to scrub it, but the thin really glossy stuff from the lighting catalog just floats right off and leaves a perfect transfer. 

As with the photo process, once you tune the technique, you can get very consistent results. For fine pitch SMT stuff photo is likely superior, but toner transfer is nice in that you can whip up a board from concept to finished product in just a few steps and very little time for under a dollar in materials.

Thanks, the tiny did work and I just ordered one.  BTW, I'm in Michigan.
There is another person who is curious about these laminators, and he's in
England.  Like you, I hope he can find same or similar product.
I wonder if the free shipping will count for England?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:26 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> As posted in Message #24732: (that one must not have made it prior to your
> question)
>
> Here is an Ebay link where I purchased my laminator for $25 - not sure
> about getting it to England. http://tinyurl.com/y9l66mo
>
> I hope that tinyurl works - if not, it's item #350255922608 on ebay.
> Perhaps you can find the same on in England?
>
> This one says "GBC HeatSeal 9" Photo Laminator - 1701860" My laminator is
> model # 1701987 - they also carry the H-65 model number.
>
> Good luck at finding one,
> Ken H>
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just ordered a laminator and will give transfer another shot when it gets
here.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:41 PM, James <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> >
> > Back to the toner transfer method. All my transferring was done using an
> > iron. Sometimes it stuck, sometimes it didn't. Fine traces never did.
> > Paper type made huge amounts of difference, could never find the right
> kind
> > I guess, even after reading many of the posts here. Maybe the laminator
> > will make a difference, but I'm still up against paper selection and line
> > widths. Perhaps you can shed some light on this, since the transfer
> method
> > may improve my making 2 sided boards. Now that would definitely get my
> > attention.
> >
>
> I've used several different methods and so far the toner transfer has been
> by far the simplest, and I can use cheap surplus board stock instead of the
> expensive photosensitive boards which I never seem to have in the size I
> need.
>
> There are a few critical points, one is the right combination of printer
> and toner, another is proper preparation of the board prior to transfer, and
> another is the transfer technique.
>
> I use a $25 laminator now and have excellent results, I use my Xerox laser
> printer (OEM toner) to print on glossy catalog paper, most recently an old
> catalog from Action Lighting which has been working better than any other
> I've tried. An iron works too, but it's more difficult to get it consistent.
>
> Clean the board with circular scrubbing with a Scotchbrite pad until it has
> a matte finish, then wipe it off with a paper towel dipped in acetone. Cut
> out the pattern you printed down to just a couple mm beyond the edges of the
> board. Lay the pattern on the blank board taking care not to touch either
> the printed surface or the clean copper. 8 passes through the laminator then
> dump it in cold water. After 5 minutes or so peel off the paper, sometimes
> you have to scrub it, but the thin really glossy stuff from the lighting
> catalog just floats right off and leaves a perfect transfer.
>
> As with the photo process, once you tune the technique, you can get very
> consistent results. For fine pitch SMT stuff photo is likely superior, but
> toner transfer is nice in that you can whip up a board from concept to
> finished product in just a few steps and very little time for under a dollar
> in materials.
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Postage:	US $140.62UPS

ouch.........

I bought that same laminator, added my own thermocouple

control and get very good results with boards up to .052 thick. Twice used .062 material but had to force it thru and pull it out with pliers.
Set the temp at 360f. Works as well as my 18" GBC and would sell the 18". I use two passes but have tried with one pass
and that seems just as good.

Use glossy catalog paper to get best results. Wish I had a source for that same paper without printing on it.

I clean the boards with steel wool and finnnish with acetone wash. Have done boards with 5 mill lines and 3 mil spaces- very pleased.

Ed Smith
Spencer, Va

===========================================================

----- Original Message ----
From: Barry Demers <sdad@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:54:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Glue 2 pieces of copper clad back to back?

Thanks, the tiny did work and I just ordered one.  BTW, I'm in Michigan.
There is another person who is curious about these laminators, and he's in
England.  Like you, I hope he can find same or similar product.
I wonder if the free shipping will count for England?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:26 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> As posted in Message #24732: (that one must not have made it prior to your
> question)
>
> Here is an Ebay link where I purchased my laminator for $25 - not sure
> about getting it to England. http://tinyurl.com/y9l66mo
>
> I hope that tinyurl works - if not, it's item #350255922608 on ebay.
> Perhaps you can find the same on in England?
>
> This one says "GBC HeatSeal 9" Photo Laminator - 1701860" My laminator is
> model # 1701987 - they also carry the H-65 model number.
>
> Good luck at finding one,
> Ken H>
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

A very good write up James - an work working has been my experience also, but the laminator is Sooooo much better more more consistent.

Especially since I added the temperature control to get the temp a bit hotter.

ken H.

Ya, so much for free shipping, eh?  Well, I was looking at a meter in
Germany, same kind of thing.  Meter is still in Germany.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
>
> Postage: US $140.62UPS
>
> ouch.........
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:12:29 -0000, you wrote:

>Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form a 2 sided board.  This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has actually tried it.

Yes.

1) use long setup epoxy, the 60 minute stuff.  Gives you working time
and enough time to do multiple boards.

2) use map pins and very slightly undersize the drill.  The bigger the
pins, the less the boards will wobble.  Make an asymmetric pattern for
the alignment holes.

3) tape the boards together once aligned, then remove the pins.  I
sandwich the boards between two pieces of marble to hold them flat.

Harvey

>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Excellent, thanks

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Harvey White <madyn@embarqmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:12:29 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form a
> 2 sided board. This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has
> actually tried it.
>
> Yes.
>
> 1) use long setup epoxy, the 60 minute stuff. Gives you working time
> and enough time to do multiple boards.
>
> 2) use map pins and very slightly undersize the drill. The bigger the
> pins, the less the boards will wobble. Make an asymmetric pattern for
> the alignment holes.
>
> 3) tape the boards together once aligned, then remove the pins. I
> sandwich the boards between two pieces of marble to hold them flat.
>
> Harvey
>
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
>
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed, what type of controller did you use with the thermocouple?  Tell us more details.

I've got a Type "J" (K??) thermocouple, but all the inputs I've seen are pretty expensive.

Have you tried beveling the edges of the .062" PCB?  That helps it work more smooth.

Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Ed Smith <w4eds@...> wrote:

>
> I bought that same laminator, added my own thermocouple
> 
> control and get very good results with boards up to .052 thick. Twice used .062 material but had to force it thru and pull it out with pliers.

Barry Demers wrote:
> Thanks.  I have had a miserable time with the transfer method, and have
> pretty much given up on that procedure.  Lining up 2 pieces of film is
> leaving me stumped so far.  I am aware of using pins for mechanical
> alignment, but how do I use pins and get that assembly into the glass
> holding frame?  I have read where some people use a pocket arrangement by
> oversizing the films, and sliding the pcb into a pocket created by gluing
> the 2 pieces of film together on 3 edges.

Cut 3 squares of 1/16" thick foam tape and stick to 3 corners of one film.

Overlay the other film on top and align tracks. With a finger holding down
the film to stop it from moving, remove the plastic backing from the 3 squares
of tape and press the top film onto it.

In less than 30secs, you have a perfectly aligned pocket that is the same
thickness of the 1/16" pcb.

There's nothing quicker and easier. The tape can be found at most newsagents
and supermarkets.

   http://www.uline.com/BL_6015/3M-Double-Sided-Foam-Tape

 > That seems to be the most reasonable at this point.

Definitely.

 > Laminating 2 single sided boards together sounds
> about the most foolproof, but certainly not the cheapest.

Another problem is that the printout can be warped in all kinds of directions
because the laser printer heats the paper. That makes double-sided alignment
difficult.

I have a box full of cheap pcb offcuts from a pcb fab, and can apply
negative film resist to them that Adam Seychell was selling.

> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
> 
>>
>> There have been several folks who make double sided that way - I did once
>> and it worked just fine. Now I use double sided board with toner transferred
>> to both sides. Takes a bit to make sure they line up, and I tend to have one
>> side with most of the traces, and only a few large traces on "back" side.
>> That way it doesn't have to line up exact.
>>
>> Ken H>
>>
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> "demers_barry" <sdad@...> wrote:
>>> Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form a
>> 2 sided board. This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has
>> actually tried it.

I like that.  I'll give it a try

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...>wrote:

>
>
> Barry Demers wrote:
> > Thanks. I have had a miserable time with the transfer method, and have
> > pretty much given up on that procedure. Lining up 2 pieces of film is
> > leaving me stumped so far. I am aware of using pins for mechanical
> > alignment, but how do I use pins and get that assembly into the glass
> > holding frame? I have read where some people use a pocket arrangement by
> > oversizing the films, and sliding the pcb into a pocket created by gluing
> > the 2 pieces of film together on 3 edges.
>
> Cut 3 squares of 1/16" thick foam tape and stick to 3 corners of one film.
>
> Overlay the other film on top and align tracks. With a finger holding down
> the film to stop it from moving, remove the plastic backing from the 3
> squares
> of tape and press the top film onto it.
>
> In less than 30secs, you have a perfectly aligned pocket that is the same
> thickness of the 1/16" pcb.
>
> There's nothing quicker and easier. The tape can be found at most
> newsagents
> and supermarkets.
>
> http://www.uline.com/BL_6015/3M-Double-Sided-Foam-Tape
>
> > That seems to be the most reasonable at this point.
>
> Definitely.
>
> > Laminating 2 single sided boards together sounds
> > about the most foolproof, but certainly not the cheapest.
>
> Another problem is that the printout can be warped in all kinds of
> directions
> because the laser printer heats the paper. That makes double-sided
> alignment
> difficult.
>
> I have a box full of cheap pcb offcuts from a pcb fab, and can apply
> negative film resist to them that Adam Seychell was selling.
>
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...<sailingtoo%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> There have been several folks who make double sided that way - I did
> once
> >> and it worked just fine. Now I use double sided board with toner
> transferred
> >> to both sides. Takes a bit to make sure they line up, and I tend to have
> one
> >> side with most of the traces, and only a few large traces on "back"
> side.
> >> That way it doesn't have to line up exact.
> >>
> >> Ken H>
> >>
> >> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com><Homebrew_PCBs%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> "demers_barry" <sdad@...> wrote:
> >>> Any success with taking .032 single sided and gluing to another to form
> a
> >> 2 sided board. This seems plausible to me, but interested if anyone has
> >> actually tried it.
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]