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Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-23 by Volkan

I did some tests on dry film that is exposed with blue laser. You can find the result files under http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/BlueLaser_LDI_Volkan/ folder.
The minimum feature size that I achieved is 2.8/2.8 mil width and space. There is no problem to print 1.4/1.4 mil width and space but development of the dry film is a little bit problematic and it is not possible to do it with simple tray technique. The film that I'm using has a thickness of 1.5 mil, according to some google results the limit is 1.5*film thickness, so if it is true it seems my results are almost at the limit.

Volkan

Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-23 by designer_craig

Volkan,
The results look great! Have a couple of quesitons. Is this from a raster scan using a printer to scan. What sort of beam spot velocity do you think you have?
Would like to have a starting point for the vector draw speed. Did you have to scrub the dry film to remove the unexposed sections?
It looks like the edge definition is nice and sharp.

I haven't got my mill back running yes so I haven't had a chance to try the vector write method yet. I would be interested in what method you used to turn on and off the laser. I modified my current driver with a shunt fet to ground to shunt off the laser current. I don't know what sort of on/off speed I will get yet, would be interested in other ideas for a driver. I finally found some thermal printer paper and I did a couple of tests of my UV laser diode's plastic lense last night and found the spot can be focused quite small. I kept burning through the paper if I kept the beam on too long.

Craig

Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-23 by jamesmichaelnewton

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <v_sahin@...> wrote:
>
> I did some tests on dry film that is exposed with blue laser. You can find the result files under http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/BlueLaser_LDI_Volkan/ folder.
> The minimum feature size that I achieved is 2.8/2.8 mil width and space. There is no problem to print 1.4/1.4 mil width and space but development of the dry film is a little bit problematic and it is not possible to do it with simple tray technique. The film that I'm using has a thickness of 1.5 mil, according to some google results the limit is 1.5*film thickness, so if it is true it seems my results are almost at the limit.
>
> Volkan

Wow.

Any chance you would post a picture of the machine that did that work?

Or of how much it costs to make?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-24 by Volkan Sahin

Machine is not so much different than the one on youtube only difference is I added laser head. If we ignore the engineering cost, I spent ~$58 ($30 blue laser, $25 housing+lens+~3$ laser driver electronics) for the laser head but it was an upgrade to my inkjet printer. I think total cost can be around ~$130 including fpga+micro+x/y servo+pcb)

Volkan

Wow.



Any chance you would post a picture of the machine that did that work?



Or of how much it costs to make?

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-24 by Volkan Sahin

I'll try but what will happen at the end of this challenge? Any beer or wine?
:)
Volkan

--- On Mon, 11/23/09, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

From: DJ Delorie <dj@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 1:30 PM



















Wow. Ok, now try the challenge... http://www.delorie com/pcb/spirals/























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-24 by lmri2071

This is wonderful !

I spent seven years to see something like that.

I think, that the next step would be use a polygonal mirror. Maybe, trying to modify a laser printer.

Lucho

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <v_sahin@...> wrote:
>
> I did some tests on dry film that is exposed with blue laser. You can find the result files under http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/BlueLaser_LDI_Volkan/ folder.
> The minimum feature size that I achieved is 2.8/2.8 mil width and space. There is no problem to print 1.4/1.4 mil width and space but development of the dry film is a little bit problematic and it is not possible to do it with simple tray technique. The film that I'm using has a thickness of 1.5 mil, according to some google results the limit is 1.5*film thickness, so if it is true it seems my results are almost at the limit.
>
> Volkan
>

Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-24 by javaguy11111

I would think using a mirror like that would cause the sides of the exposed area to not be vertical.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lmri2071" <lmri2071@...> wrote:
>
> This is wonderful !
>
> I spent seven years to see something like that.
>
> I think, that the next step would be use a polygonal mirror. Maybe, trying to modify a laser printer.
>
> Lucho
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <v_sahin@> wrote:
> >
> > I did some tests on dry film that is exposed with blue laser. You can find the result files under http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/BlueLaser_LDI_Volkan/ folder.
> > The minimum feature size that I achieved is 2.8/2.8 mil width and space. There is no problem to print 1.4/1.4 mil width and space but development of the dry film is a little bit problematic and it is not possible to do it with simple tray technique. The film that I'm using has a thickness of 1.5 mil, according to some google results the limit is 1.5*film thickness, so if it is true it seems my results are almost at the limit.
> >
> > Volkan
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-24 by Volkan Sahin

If you use f-theta lens in front of rotating mirror this solves the problem .


--- On Tue, 11/24/09, javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...> wrote:

From: javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 3:47 PM

















I would think using a mirror like that would cause the sides of the exposed area to not be vertical.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "lmri2071" <lmri2071@.. .> wrote:

>

> This is wonderful !

>

> I spent seven years to see something like that.

>

> I think, that the next step would be use a polygonal mirror. Maybe, trying to modify a laser printer.

>

> Lucho

>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Volkan" <v_sahin@> wrote:

> >

> > I did some tests on dry film that is exposed with blue laser. You can find the result files under http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ Homebrew_ PCBs/files/ BlueLaser_ LDI_Volkan/ folder.

> > The minimum feature size that I achieved is 2.8/2.8 mil width and space. There is no problem to print 1.4/1.4 mil width and space but development of the dry film is a little bit problematic and it is not possible to do it with simple tray technique. The film that I'm using has a thickness of 1.5 mil, according to some google results the limit is 1.5*film thickness, so if it is true it seems my results are almost at the limit.

> >

> > Volkan

> >

>

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-25 by Volkan Sahin

Thanks. I'm working on rotating mirror, I've one scanner unit removed from laser printer.

Volkan

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, lmri2071 <lmri2071@...> wrote:

From: lmri2071 <lmri2071@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 2:35 PM

















This is wonderful !



I spent seven years to see something like that.



I think, that the next step would be use a polygonal mirror. Maybe, trying to modify a laser printer.



Lucho



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Volkan" <v_sahin@... > wrote:

>

> I did some tests on dry film that is exposed with blue laser. You can find the result files under http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ Homebrew_ PCBs/files/ BlueLaser_ LDI_Volkan/ folder.

> The minimum feature size that I achieved is 2.8/2.8 mil width and space. There is no problem to print 1.4/1.4 mil width and space but development of the dry film is a little bit problematic and it is not possible to do it with simple tray technique. The film that I'm using has a thickness of 1.5 mil, according to some google results the limit is 1.5*film thickness, so if it is true it seems my results are almost at the limit.

>

> Volkan

>

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-25 by javaguy11111

Never heard of an f-theta lens. I looked it up on google, but I do not see how that solves the problem unless you use a really big lens.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <v_sahin@...> wrote:
>
> If you use f-theta lens in front of rotating mirror this solves the problem .
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/24/09, javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
>
> From: javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...>
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 3:47 PM
>
>
>
> I would think using a mirror like that would cause the sides of the exposed area to not be vertical.
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-25 by James Bishop

I've never heard of it either, but i think you'll find one if you dismantle
a laser printer. It is a thin slice of a cylindrical lens. Its about as wide
as a sheet of paper.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:04 PM, javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...>wrote:

>
>
> Never heard of an f-theta lens. I looked it up on google, but I do not see
> how that solves the problem unless you use a really big lens.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Volkan Sahin <v_sahin@...> wrote:
> >
> > If you use f-theta lens in front� of rotating� mirror this solves the
> problem .
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 11/24/09, javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
> >
> > From: javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...>
>
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 3:47 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > I would think using a mirror like that would cause the sides of the
> exposed area to not be vertical.
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-25 by Volkan Sahin

Check the document OpticsForScanSystem.pdf from http://www.sintecoptronics.com.sg/ref/index.html.%c2%a0 They've really good information on their web about laser.

Volkan
--- On Tue, 11/24/09, James Bishop <bishopaj@...> wrote:

From: James Bishop <bishopaj@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 6:21 PM

I've never heard of it either, but i think you'll find one if you dismantle
a laser printer. It is a thin slice of a cylindrical lens. Its about as wide
as a sheet of paper.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:04 PM, javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...>wrote:

>
>
> Never heard of an f-theta lens. I looked it up on google, but I do not see
> how that solves the problem unless you use a really big lens.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Volkan Sahin <v_sahin@...> wrote:
> >
> > If you use f-theta lens in front of rotating mirror this solves the
> problem .
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 11/24/09, javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
> >
> > From: javaguy11111 <javaguy11111@...>
>
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 3:47 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > I would think using a mirror like that would cause the sides of the
> exposed area to not be vertical.
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-25 by Simao Cardoso

Volkan Sahin wrote:
> Thanks. I'm working on rotating mirror, I've one scanner unit removed
> from laser printer.


What is the time performance off your machine? Maybe you gave that
information on the uploaded files but i don't have access sorry.

Comparing your printing time to process off printing a mask, align on
pcb and expose is it longer even with small boards??

Was recently discussed here various ways to raster scan the laser,
mirrors, prims or rotate/shake the laser. But the precision work needed
to accomplish this worth the time improvement for small boards?

>From your schematics (thanks again for posting) the servo is driven by
the mcu and the quadrature decoder and position counter is on fpga. Do
you thing the machine mechanics will handle faster speeds? Because if
all the servo drive be on the fpga i guess the speed could be improved.
I realise that will be needed a big logic to make it maybe even more
complex than the common signal and printhead part. But the laser
assembly will the one you already have.

For the rotating mirror i see some difficulties. The rpm speed has to be
low enough as film sensitivity. And it's divided by the 6 mirror faces.
>From the values from Adam Seychell and some lost on mirror and lenses
maybe the rpm needs to be as slow as 100rpm. And maybe the mirror won't
be accurate enough at this speed. But don't know.
>From a fast look to the driver datasheet i didn't get relation between
external clock and rpm.

In laser printers surface photo effect is incredibly sensitive so it has
very fast scans but photoresists need more energy. And these optics sure
have laser power limits they can handle.

I sincerely expect you start selling you board soon. But i still got the
servo driving with fpga idea. Your board don't have more IOs for it but
there are things like ebay 280420650046 and the same seller has a nice
arm board too (i have other one). So please from you experience can the
mechanics allow more speed?


PS
Just more one long email from me BUT! I started writing this email
almost 2 hours ago because something hit my mind in between. Few days
ago on emc2 list someone asked if he could use vga port to drive the
servos drivers. And i start wonder if we could use the hsync signal for
raster sync and vsync for line step. Ok i am crazy its a fresh idea, but
has some potencial.
The laser is connected to one color and the others can be used for other
information. No fast realtime uplink signals needed. The problem is only
synchronization between the hsync and mirror position. This has to be
handled by external circuit. The hsync is much longer than the dot clk
and that is a problem too.
Imagine you have a full screen software with the normal software things
on top and on bottom the line to rast scan repeated more than 100 times.
All the lines on top will be used give time to the external circuit to
synchronise hsync with the 'zeroing' light sensor. At hsync any laser
signal is instantly blocked and a short pulse is given to laser as long
as the dot clock. If at that pulse the light sensor gets it so it's
synchronised if not the clock in the mirror driver should be modified
(maybe start fast and reducing rpm until synchronisation).
The circuit also has to block laser signal if no synchronisation. Know
in which line it's the raster lines and count successful rasted lines.
At 60hz or so vsync gives enough time to any cnc software to check if
the successful rasted lines are correct and move to next line.

Ok don't bother reply if not worth it.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-25 by Simao Cardoso

Volkan Sahin wrote:
> Thanks. I'm working on rotating mirror, I've one scanner unit removed
> from laser printer.


>From my last loud thoughts one thing is not right, first i wrote about
10 rasted lines per second was the maximum (6faces 100rpm mirror) and
then 20µs line duration possibility (50KHz hsync).

If I get the thing right now, the maximum laser beam velocity on the
resist is 283cm/s, which makes just only 14 lines per second for a 20cm
wide board. Isn't possible to make the laser move linearly 2 times per
second? That will only be 7 time slower than the fastest possibility
with rotative mirror setup.

The vga signal gives 0.056mm max line width for 50khz hsync, which is
about the dot size for a complete line on monitor, not bad if hsync is
used for dot clk :|

The light on the resist need to be continue or can be interrupted
(multiple scan lines) until reach 60mJ/cm²?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-26 by Volkan Sahin

Hello
Simao,



Please find my reply below your
questions. I hope I didn't do any miss calculations :).


>What is the time performance
off your machine? Maybe you gave that
>information on the
uploaded files but i don't have access sorry.



Current printer speed is 32”/sec in
bidirectional mode and 16”/sec in unidirectional mode.
I always use unidirectional mode
because of quality of the output it gives sharp well defined lines.

For example it takes 8 minutes to print
~8”x1.3” board in unidirectional mode at 720dpi resolution.




>Comparing your printing time to
process off printing a mask, align on
>pcb and expose is it
longer even with small boards??



I think so, I can live with this speed.
I'm working on rotating mirrors just for fun.


>Was recently discussed here
various ways to raster scan the laser,
>mirrors, prims or
rotate/shake the laser. But the precision work needed
>to
accomplish this worth the time improvement for small boards?
>From
your schematics (thanks again for posting) the servo is driven
by
>the mcu and the quadrature decoder and position counter is
on fpga. Do
>you thing the machine mechanics will handle faster
speeds? Because if
>all the servo drive be on the fpga i guess
the speed could be improved.
>I realise that will be needed a
big logic to make it maybe even more
>complex than the common
signal and printhead part. But the laser
>assembly will the one
you already have.



Higher speeds is not possible with this
mechanics at least X-axis motor won't survive.
BTW for the X-axis servo, I'm disabling
servo during printing, it just moves ~max speed between printing area
limits if it exceeds limits then servo is enabled.




>For the rotating mirror i see some
difficulties. The rpm speed has to be
>low enough as film
sensitivity. And it's divided by the 6 mirror faces.
>From the
values from Adam Seychell and some lost on mirror and lenses
>maybe
the rpm needs to be as slow as 100rpm. And maybe the mirror won't
>be
accurate enough at this speed. But don't know.
>From a fast
look to the driver datasheet i didn't get relation between
>external
clock and rpm.
New generation rotating mirror motors are PLL based
they have a clock input and PLL locks the motor speed to external
clock, so they should be accurate. For example, if we're printing at
720dpi with 2.5microsecond exposure time, scanning of 8” width
material requires 14.4ms and if we have a 6 faced mirror motor speed
will be 694rpm



>In laser printers surface photo effect is incredibly
sensitive so it has
>very fast scans but photoresists need more
energy. And these optics sure
>have laser power limits they can
handle.
I don't know, I did some experiments at 200mW and did some
rough measurements it seems most of the power loss is because of the
45 degree mirrors and it is ~20% and total loss is around 30%

>I sincerely expect you start
selling you board soon. But i still got the
>servo driving with
fpga idea. Your board don't have more IOs for it but
>there are
things like ebay 280420650046 and the same seller has a nice
>arm
board too (i have other one). So please from you experience can
the
>mechanics allow more speed?
It is for my hobby, I'm really
very bad to make things commercial.

I prefer to use my own designs because
of that I'm not buying any evaluation boards etc.

All servo in fpga do we really need? I
think we don't need such high speed servo calculations since the response
time of motors are really slow.





>PS
>Just more one long
email from me BUT! I started writing this email
>almost 2 hours
ago because something hit my mind in between. Few days
>ago on
emc2 list someone asked if he could use vga port to drive the
>servos
drivers. And i start wonder if we could use the hsync signal
for
>raster sync and vsync for line step. Ok i am crazy its a
fresh idea, but
>has some potencial.
>The laser is
connected to one color and the others can be used for
other
>information. No fast realtime uplink signals needed. The
problem is only
>synchronization between the hsync and mirror
position. This has to be
>handled by external circuit. The
hsync is much longer than the dot clk
>and that is a problem
too.
>Imagine you have a full screen software with the normal
software things
>on top and on bottom the line to rast scan
repeated more than 100 times.
>All the lines on top will be
used give time to the external circuit to
>synchronise hsync
with the 'zeroing' light sensor. At hsync any laser
>signal is
instantly blocked and a short pulse is given to laser as long
>as
the dot clock. If at that pulse the light sensor gets it so
it's
>synchronised if not the clock in the mirror driver should
be modified
>(maybe start fast and reducing rpm until
synchronisation) .
>The circuit also has to block laser signal
if no synchronisation. Know
>in which line it's the raster
lines and count successful rasted lines.
>At 60hz or so vsync
gives enough time to any cnc software to check if
>the
successful rasted lines are correct and move to next line.



I think it is a good idea, as far as I
know Sun Microsystems used similar concept in their laser printers.

>Ok don't bother reply if not
worth it.
It is really good for me, thanks for
asking all these questions, it is a brain storming and creates new
ideas.
Volkan






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results using a Polygon mirror and laser from a laser printer (old style laser)

2009-11-26 by Andrew Mathison

Hi,
if I have understood correctly, there are some thoughts that the laser will move too fast to "develope" the light sensitive surface.
My take is the following that you may or may not be able to slow down the mirror motor, but you may also induce some problems of accuracy/wobble at the same time, at least I feel that is possible.
It is maybe possible to slow down the motor by 50% without altering accuracy and repeatability too much......but more may be a problem.
Then why not "scan" a line more than once? Would this not give the same effect?
Effectively, you need to move the pcb far slower (say 4 times slower) and simultaneously scan say 4 times for each line (just as an example, you may need to increase that number even more).
Its a perfect job for a PIC to my mind to control a stepper motor (suitably geared down to move the PCB exactly one line per step) after the 4 (for example) scans have been made.....
Well thats my 2 cents worth!!
Its a really interesting blog Guys, many thanks.
All have a great day.
Regards
Andy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-27 by Simao Cardoso

Volkan Sahin wrote:
>
>
> Current printer speed is 32”/sec in bidirectional mode and 16”/sec in
> unidirectional mode.
> I always use unidirectional mode because of quality of the output it
> gives sharp well defined lines.
>
> For example it takes 8 minutes to print
> ~8”x1.3” board in unidirectional mode at 720dpi resolution.
>


Great! You area already at top speed in the simplest manner, and is
faster than i imagine.

> New generation rotating mirror motors are PLL based
> they have a clock input and PLL locks the motor speed to external
> clock, so they should be accurate. For example, if we're printing at
> 720dpi with 2.5microsecond exposure time, scanning of 8” width
> material requires 14.4ms and if we have a 6 faced mirror motor speed
> will be 694rpm
> I did some experiments at 200mW and did some
> rough measurements it seems most of the power loss is because of the
> 45 degree mirrors and it is ~20% and total loss is around 30%

That 2.5µS value is experimental? Or how did you calculated it? Which is
after all the size off the printed dot?
I was following Adam Seychell. 2mils dot (~0.005cm) printing a 20cm line
(~8") (like a A4 laser printer) is 0.1cm² area so is 6mJ and with 85mW
laser is ~0.07s which gives the 14Hz (lines per second) and 140rpm with
the 6faces mirror. With the 30% loss slowing to 100rpm is a good number.
And there is the thing you can't use all mirror surface but that needs
higher accuracy and longer distance from mirror to pcb and not slower
rpm. You have to wast a portion off the surface for start counting only
when the reflected beam touch the light sensor on side off your
lenses/printed material.
But still is almost 10times faster than your actual machine. Making a
20x30cm (~100inch²) printed in 7minutes plus turnover mechanical delays
in each line (ok 10minutes). Which is as good as 30.000+eur film
photoplotters (ok those make 8000dpi not 720) but directly on pcb!
Your 2.5µS number is about 5 times faster, so please tell me i am wrong
because i want to be :>

But can't the actual machine print in both directions? If the
misalignment is because delay between encoder signal and firing the
laser, which makes printing differ in the reverse directions. You could
try (if you not made it yet) synchronise the laser with the signals
coming from the encoder directly. Between positions it 'loads' (shifts)
the next bit, and is the encoder signal which will fire it.

BTW i refer various times 'printing traces and not dots' (compare when
to turn on and off - less bandwidth) because is how seemed to work the
crap noisy photoplotter i have used. I think LPKF laser photo engravers
work like that too (just guessing). But if you are loading the all dots
line in to the buffer and shifting them, is after all less computation
work, and you already have it done for the epson print head.


> I think it is a good idea, as far as I
> know Sun Microsystems used similar concept in their laser printers.

Which similar concept? Connect the printer to VGA port? Or use the
framebuffer in some mcu chips to build the raster processor?
I will look better if is still possible the hsync as dot clk (since it
could avoid the fpga with memory and usb connection). Hsync as dot clk
needs a much simpler circuit but requires the all thing completely
synchronous, if pc fails to update one single line all print gets
twisted. The idea behind 1 line per frame made it asynchronous.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-27 by Volkan Sahin

>That 2.5µS value is experimental? Or how did you calculated it? Which is
>after all the size off the printed dot?
>I was following Adam Seychell. 2mils dot (~0.005cm) printing a 20cm line
>(~8") (like a A4 laser printer) is 0.1cm² area so is 6mJ and with 85mW
>laser is ~0.07s which gives the 14Hz (lines per second) and 140rpm with
>the 6faces mirror. With the 30% loss slowing to 100rpm is a good number.
>And there is the thing you can't use all mirror surface but that needs
>higher accuracy and longer distance from mirror to pcb and not slower
>rpm. You have to wast a portion off the surface for start counting only
>when the reflected beam touch the light sensor on side off your
>lenses/printed material.
>But still is almost 10times faster than your actual machine. Making a
>20x30cm (~100inch²) printed in 7minutes plus turnover mechanical delays
>in each line (ok 10minutes). Which is as good as 30.000+eur film
>photoplotters (ok those make 8000dpi not 720) but directly on pcb!
>Your 2.5µS number is about 5 times faster, so please tell me i am wrong
>because i want to be :>

2.5 microsecond value is both calculated and experimentally verified.
Here is the calculation
Dry film requires 10-15mJ/cm2, let's take 15mJ (because of wavelength of blue laser is
405nm). 720 dpi resolution corresponds 35micron-meters spot size, actually it should be
larger than that since on a continuous line there shouldn't be any discontinuity.
Let's assume it is 50 micron-meters and laser output power=150mW. So,
Spot area~= 20e-6 cm^2
Energy required=15*20e-6=300e-6 mJ
Exposure time= Energy required/Laser_power= 300e-6/150=2e-6=2 micro-seconds.
According to my experiments below 1.5 microseconds, dry film couldn't stay
in a developing bath, it is not strong enough.
BTW, this 8000dpi is it equivalent resolution or real hw resolution? If it is equivalent
resolution it doesn't have so much sense.

>But can't the actual machine print in both directions? If the
>misalignment is because delay between encoder signal and firing the
>laser, which makes printing differ in the reverse directions. You could
>try (if you not made it yet) synchronise the laser with the signals
>coming from the encoder directly. Between positions it 'loads' (shifts)
>the next bit, and is the encoder signal which will fire it.
Here is a simple demonstration of the problem,
|=encoder pulse
.=no pulse
-> =direction is left to right
<- = direction is right to left
*=laser dot
Unidirectional printing, lets print 2 dot in 2 rows
->
.......|.......
........*
<-
->
.......|.......
........*
Output
........*
........*
Bidirectional printing
->
.......|.......
........*
<-
.......|.......
......*

Output
........*
......*
Actual positioning error will be more that, because of state machine delay.
There is a solution which I implemented on inkjet printer and similar concept
can be applied to this case. The solution is, instead of actual encoder signal
estimate encoder position by time delay using previous encoder durations and
generate a pseudo encoder pulse to compensate position error by time delay.
Another method digital pll can be used for this purpose.

> I think it is a good idea, as far as I
> know Sun Microsystems used similar concept in their laser printers.
They were using VGA port as far as I know to generate/transfer raster image.
I don't know the implementation details.

Volkan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Blue Laser LDI Dry Film Results

2009-11-28 by Simao Cardoso

Volkan Sahin wrote:

> 2.5 microsecond value is both calculated and experimentally verified.
> Here is the calculation
> Dry film requires 10-15mJ/cm2, let's take 15mJ (because of wavelength
> of blue laser is
> 405nm). 720 dpi resolution corresponds 35micron-meters spot size,
> actually it should be
> larger than that since on a continuous line there shouldn't be any
> discontinuity.
> Let's assume it is 50 micron-meters and laser output power=150mW.

So 15mJ sensitive resist and 150mW laser instead 60mJ and 85mW that's
the difference.

> BTW, this 8000dpi is it equivalent resolution or real hw resolution?
> If it is equivalent
> resolution it doesn't have so much sense.

The machine i used i don't remember to see 8000dpi on the control
software, but the actual listed model says 8000dpi. But is just some
spec they trough. Because is an 'analog' machine it pass the film
continually, if can go slower and less power on laser the user can get
the impression of higher resolution. We had to choose laser power for
each resolution and not the dot size. But these is a stressing
irritating noisy crap rotative machine at prices under cheapest cars. To
print on films that needed to be developed, fixed (bath), washed (in
darkroom), dried and only then used. But nobody uses more than 4000dpi
and who uses it must be for 1mil traces or is crazy. 1000dpi for
soldermask and 2000dpi for copper layers is just fine. End quality is
more about resist application, exposer light, developing and etching
solutions/machines, not film resolution. That machine take 1h to print a
2000dpi 20x30cm artwork, less time if big ground planes and less tracks
(the print traces and not dot thing).
Sub 10minutes machines are really expensive. Try google, there are
rotative mirror ones and raster lcd ones. Right now i am see one that
claims 128.000 dpi (on film)!! The lcd raster method can do things like
what is the antialising fonts in ours lcd displays. Again is a 'analog'
effect that seems to increase resolution by changing power around
corners and so. Also like epson dot size inkjet printers. The artwork
'body', whatever the resolution is, can only be super dark.
Makes me remember stupid ideias i was having 1 year ago after calculated
8hours printing time with the only uv laser led i found (<5mW). I
thought off rast scan a small monochromatic lcd screen like used with
8bit mcus or even a old cell phone lcd, with a uv source behind, but the
light could not heat the screen and uv led wasn't dense enough (or
collimated) , then i thought using a old school transparency projector
with a laptop screen and hundreds off uv led and move the pcb x,y above
the lens. Then found your direct print work, still impossible to do
soldermaskwith inkjet (the only epoxy based thing i found had mixed a
strong solvent used as epoxy remover), and needed metalic resist for PTH
boards. But you addressed this with the laser. Dip coating things like
aq3000 and print with your machine and use acrylic based white ink for
legend in the inkjet is many years ahead most boardhouses.


> Here is a simple demonstration of the problem,

Thanks for the effort but where you edited your email (seems yahoo
webmail) just sucks for ascii art. yahoo just s... i can't even write
my name here, it's Simão with the ~~~~~ but you will get it wrong.

> > I think it is a good idea, as far as I
> > know Sun Microsystems used similar concept in their laser printers.
> They were using VGA port as far as I know to generate/transfer raster
> image.
> I don't know the implementation details.

Could you say the machine model?