Homebrew PCBs

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Interesting... it has been impossible to get a consensus about which software package(s) are "industry standard". However, Manpower.com lists two on their "skills" list, OrCAD and Eagle.
>
> Drat, Dip Trace has been really easy to use...
>
> OrCAD is out of the ballpark on cost. No way I can afford it.
>
> Eagle has the free and cheaper versions, and has a lot of users of those cheap and free versions.
>
> Gosh darn it, I like Dip Trace!
>
>  Steve Greenfield
> Electronic Engineering Technician student
> Electronic Technician 20+ years
> CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: "Steve Greenfield" <alienrelics@...>
Sent 11/2/2009 1:17:13 PM
To: "Homebrew_PCBs Mailing List" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Schematic Capture/PCB Creation program of choice?Interesting... it has been impossible to get a consensus about which software package(s) are "industry standard". However, Manpower.com lists two on their "skills" list, OrCAD and Eagle.
Drat, Dip Trace has been really easy to use...
OrCAD is out of the ballpark on cost. No way I can afford it.
Eagle has the free and cheaper versions, and has a lot of users of those cheap and free versions.
Gosh darn it, I like Dip Trace!
Steve Greenfield
Electronic Engineering Technician student
Electronic Technician 20+ years
CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
Individual Email | Traditional
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Interesting... it has been impossible to get a consensus about which software package(s) are "industry standard". However, Manpower.com lists two on their "skills" list, OrCAD and Eagle.
> 
> Drat, Dip Trace has been really easy to use...
> 
> OrCAD is out of the ballpark on cost. No way I can afford it.
> 
> Eagle has the free and cheaper versions, and has a lot of users of those cheap and free versions.
> 
> Gosh darn it, I like Dip Trace!
> 
>  Steve Greenfield
> Electronic Engineering Technician student
> Electronic Technician 20+ years
> CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
>

>
> KiCad, Free Open-Source (GPL), cross-platform (MAC too), schematic capture, project manager, part editors for schematics and footprints, library management, Autoroute, Auto-Annotate, 3D viewer (Open-Source Wings3D required). Generate netlists to various formats (works with free but no open-source and windows-only LTSpice), embedded Gerber viewer, export Gerbers for other viewers. Decent native part and footprint library, much more available online. Active user and development community.
> 
> That said, there are some small edges to KiCad. But they get addressed fairly soon once reported to the Community IMHO. I wish there were better tutorials for KiCad. Perhaps that's where I can contribute.
> 
> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> 
> http://iut-tice.ujf-grenoble.fr/kicad/
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting... it has been impossible to get a consensus about which software package(s) are "industry standard". However, Manpower.com lists two on their "skills" list, OrCAD and Eagle.
> > 
> > Drat, Dip Trace has been really easy to use...
> > 
> > OrCAD is out of the ballpark on cost. No way I can afford it.
> > 
> > Eagle has the free and cheaper versions, and has a lot of users of those cheap and free versions.
> > 
> > Gosh darn it, I like Dip Trace!
> > 
> >  Steve Greenfield
> > Electronic Engineering Technician student
> > Electronic Technician 20+ years
> > CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> > IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
> >
>

From: roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Schematic Capture/PCB Creation program of choice?
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 1:35 PM


  



More power to you on the better tutorials. 

I been wanting to switch to KiCad to get free 4 layer design, but I expect it will be quite a learning curve. So I've been procrastinating and sticking with the free 2 layer DipTrace that takes about 15 minutes to learn to the point of significant usability.

---(via web post) | Start a new topic 
Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database 
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 

MARKETPLACE

Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, for the world and for each other 
 
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional 
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe 



Recent Activity


 15
New MembersVisit Your Group 



Yahoo! Finance
It's Now Personal
Guides, news,
advice & more.

Ads on Yahoo!
Learn more now.
Reach customers
searching for you.

Check out the
Y! Groups blog
Stay up to speed
on all things Groups!
. 















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Hi Royce,  while I'm new at all this and no expert.  Why can't you make four layer boards by the following?
>  
> Make a netlist with the traces that you want on layer one and save them.
>  
> Make a netlist with layer two traces and save that.
>  
> Do the same for all the other layers.
>  
> Print and etch all your layers separately and then glue or bond them together.  As long as your doing your own etching the end board won't know the difference.
>  
> You would have to put registration points on each layer. and you would have to print test sheets to make sure the registration points were all the same distance apart.  you might have to name each layer different to get around the two layer limit of the software.
>  
> But the software wouldn't know it was the same schematic.
>  
> Just my dumb take on a way to do it,  Cary
> 
> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Schematic Capture/PCB Creation program of choice?
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 1:35 PM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> More power to you on the better tutorials. 
> 
> I been wanting to switch to KiCad to get free 4 layer design, but I expect it will be quite a learning curve. So I've been procrastinating and sticking with the free 2 layer DipTrace that takes about 15 minutes to learn to the point of significant usability.
> 
> ---(via web post) | Start a new topic 
> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
> MARKETPLACE
> 
> Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, for the world and for each other 
>  
> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional 
> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe 
> 
> 
> 
> Recent Activity
> 
> 
>  15
> New MembersVisit Your Group 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Finance
> It's Now Personal
> Guides, news,
> advice & more.
> 
> Ads on Yahoo!
> Learn more now.
> Reach customers
> searching for you.
> 
> Check out the
> Y! Groups blog
> Stay up to speed
> on all things Groups!
> . 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:46 PM, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
> Hi Cary,
>
> It's because I am an autorouter junkie. I only have so much hobby-time and I believe that using the autorouter saves me a good deal of time.
>
> So what I'm really after is a free CAD that will autoroute the 4 layers. I don't want to have to chose which trace goes on which layer, I'd obsess about those choices for countless hours on end constantly wondering if there is a better way. The boards I make are not worth that time investment.
>
> With the DipTrace autorouter I just spend an hour or two moving and adding vias to match my assembly process and call it good.
>
> My DipTrace process works very well but I don't get the component density I'd like. Also, even though I use a lot of SMD I don't save as many drill holes as I'd like due to all the extra vias that are used merely to hop over other traces. I'm convinced that a 4 layer board will reduce my via count significantly.
>
> Regards,
> Royce
>
>

>
> I don't think laziness or lack of time is a good reason to use an
> autorouter or 4 layer boards.
> 
> You'll spend much more time troubleshooting and stuff if you don't
> know your board very well, and even more with those internal layers.
> 
> I'd only use 4 layers if it's absolutely nececcary for the design, and
> I never use autorouters.
> 
> Anyway, each his own, but I could never just autoroute a board on 4
> layers and send the ugly mess to production jus to get it done. With a
> hobby it's usually the making, not the getting it done, but maybe I'm
> just old fashioned.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:46 PM, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
> > Hi Cary,
> >
> > It's because I am an autorouter junkie. I only have so much hobby-time and I believe that using the autorouter saves me a good deal of time.
> >
> > So what I'm really after is a free CAD that will autoroute the 4 layers. I don't want to have to chose which trace goes on which layer, I'd obsess about those choices for countless hours on end constantly wondering if there is a better way. The boards I make are not worth that time investment.
> >
> > With the DipTrace autorouter I just spend an hour or two moving and adding vias to match my assembly process and call it good.
> >
> > My DipTrace process works very well but I don't get the component density I'd like. Also, even though I use a lot of SMD I don't save as many drill holes as I'd like due to all the extra vias that are used merely to hop over other traces. I'm convinced that a 4 layer board will reduce my via count significantly.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Royce
> >
> >
>

>
> More power to you on the better tutorials. 
> 
> I been wanting to switch to KiCad to get free 4 layer design, but I expect it will be quite a learning curve. So I've been procrastinating and sticking with the free 2 layer DipTrace that takes about 15 minutes to learn to the point of significant usability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "drmail377" <drmail377@> wrote:
> >
> > KiCad, Free Open-Source (GPL), cross-platform (MAC too), schematic capture, project manager, part editors for schematics and footprints, library management, Autoroute, Auto-Annotate, 3D viewer (Open-Source Wings3D required). Generate netlists to various formats (works with free but no open-source and windows-only LTSpice), embedded Gerber viewer, export Gerbers for other viewers. Decent native part and footprint library, much more available online. Active user and development community.
> > 
> > That said, there are some small edges to KiCad. But they get addressed fairly soon once reported to the Community IMHO. I wish there were better tutorials for KiCad. Perhaps that's where I can contribute.
> > 
> > http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> > 
> > http://iut-tice.ujf-grenoble.fr/kicad/
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Interesting... it has been impossible to get a consensus about which software package(s) are "industry standard". However, Manpower.com lists two on their "skills" list, OrCAD and Eagle.
> > > 
> > > Drat, Dip Trace has been really easy to use...
> > > 
> > > OrCAD is out of the ballpark on cost. No way I can afford it.
> > > 
> > > Eagle has the free and cheaper versions, and has a lot of users of those cheap and free versions.
> > > 
> > > Gosh darn it, I like Dip Trace!
> > > 
> > >  Steve Greenfield
> > > Electronic Engineering Technician student
> > > Electronic Technician 20+ years
> > > CET Computers and Consumer Electronics
> > > IPC-A-610D CIS Specialist
> > >
> >
>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
> "send ugly mess to production"... I don't send anything to production. Virtually every board I make is a one-off, is home etched and is part of a competition robot. The bot must be ready by competition time or whatever amount of time I have spent will have been wasted.
>
> Forgive me, but I think your needs and most common use-cases are pretty different than mine. My focus is on the robot as a whole. The PCB is just one part of a larger project.
>
> Regards,
> Royce
>

>
> You make 4 layer boards at home?
> 
> When I make the boards myself I spend even more time on a good layout.
> After all I am the guy who doesn't have to spend time drilling all the
> vias...
> 
> We don't have to agree on the issue, I understand that for some people
> a PCB is just a means to connect stuff. Just don't be surprised to
> meet people that very much consider PCB layout an art, or at least
> something to be optimized.
> 
> A window is just to keep the cold air out, and a wall is just to
> separate rooms, and yet most craftsmen include orderly implementation
> and neat appearance in their definition of a job well done.
> 
> ST
> 
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
> > "send ugly mess to production"... I don't send anything to production. Virtually every board I make is a one-off, is home etched and is part of a competition robot. The bot must be ready by competition time or whatever amount of time I have spent will have been wasted.
> >
> > Forgive me, but I think your needs and most common use-cases are pretty different than mine. My focus is on the robot as a whole. The PCB is just one part of a larger project.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Royce
> >
>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:41 PM, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
>
>
> Imagine an architect came up to your wall-building craftsman, observed his plumb lines and precise right angles and proceeded to tell the craftsman that there was no good reason to make such a common wall. Imagine the architect told the craftsman that anything worth building should have graceful curves, soaring arches and should endeavor to lift the human spirit.
>
> I think your craftsman might be quite surprised at the architect's low opinion of craftsman's precise work.
>
> I'm not surprised at the craftsman's opinion of quality nor am I surprised at the architect's differing opinion of the same. But I do wonder why the architect did not choose to simply inspire the craftsman with the architect's own work instead of creating a negative image of himself and his work by espousing, unasked for, a negative opinion of the craftsman's work.
>
> Anyway, I do not make 4 layer boards at home. I merely wish to. The technique has been described to me on these boards and I'm eager to give it a whirl as part of my next project.
>
> Regards,
> Royce
>

>
> How do you bond a 4 layer board together?
> 
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 5:13 PM, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > I've made 4 layer boards at home. Not as much fun, but it gets the
> > job done.
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

  From: roycepipkins 
  Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 9:07 PM
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Schematic Capture/PCB Creation program of choice?


    
  Although I have not yet attempted it, my expectation is that it will work the same way bonding a 2 layer board out two singled PCBs works. Tape them together at first, but once several via are soldered into place the board will be stuck together well enough for many purposes.

  With a 4 layer assembly the trick to access the inner layers is apparently to drill the outer via holes larger than the inner holes so that it is possible to solder the via connecting wire to both the inner and outer via copper plates. 

  That extra drill for the outer layers may be more of a pain than its worth with through hole components. However, using SMD I'm hopeful the process will wind up reducing my overall drill count and increase my component density. 

  Regards,
  Royce

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Trevor White <trevor.white100@...> wrote:
  >
  > How do you bond a 4 layer board together?
  > 
  > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 5:13 PM, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
  > 
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > I've made 4 layer boards at home. Not as much fun, but it gets the
  > > job done.
  > > 
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >



  



Greetings from

Andy Mathison

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]