Homebrew_PCBs

Hi guys,
I'm toying with the idea of resurrecting the Homebrew-PCBs Wiki. Well,
actually, that's a lie -- I've installed TikiWiki on my server and pointed a
subdomain at it:
<http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/>

There's not a lot of content there at the moment, but I've set up a basic
framework, and I'll be putting some of my notes on there over the coming weeks
(assuming, of course, that I don't end up covering any more shifts at work).

Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so anonymously -- this is
mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and malicious editing.

Comments and criticisms welcome, as always.

--
Phil.
ygroups@...
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Maybe a white-list of editors should be set up.

As moderator of a lot of Yahoogroups, I'm fully aware of how willing spammers are to register to post their spam. Not allowing anonymous edits will only stop the most casual of vandals.

I've registered as Homebrew_PCBs there, fleshed out a few definitions, and added a couple.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> I'm toying with the idea of resurrecting the Homebrew-PCBs Wiki. Well,
> actually, that's a lie -- I've installed TikiWiki on my server and pointed a
> subdomain at it:
> <http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/>
>
> There's not a lot of content there at the moment, but I've set up a basic
> framework, and I'll be putting some of my notes on there over the coming weeks
> (assuming, of course, that I don't end up covering any more shifts at work).
>
> Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so anonymously -- this is
> mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and malicious editing.
>
> Comments and criticisms welcome, as always.
>
> --
> Phil.
> ygroups@...
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>

I've just registered myself, but didn't see any way to edit after logging in. I am not familiar with wiki work at all, so I'm sure I'm just missing something.

It will be good to have LOTS of info about PCB collected in one space and easy to find.

Thanks - 73 de Ken H> K9FV

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> I'm toying with the idea of resurrecting the Homebrew-PCBs Wiki. Well,
> actually, that's a lie -- I've installed TikiWiki on my server and pointed a
> subdomain at it:
> <http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/>
>
> There's not a lot of content there at the moment, but I've set up a basic
> framework, and I'll be putting some of my notes on there over the coming weeks
> (assuming, of course, that I don't end up covering any more shifts at work).
>
> Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so anonymously -- this is
> mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and malicious editing.
>
> Comments and criticisms welcome, as always.
>
> --
> Phil.
> ygroups@...
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>

sailingto wrote:

> I've just registered myself, but didn't see any way to edit after logging
> in. I am not familiar with wiki work at all, so I'm sure I'm just missing
> something.
>
> It will be good to have LOTS of info about PCB collected in one space and
> easy to find.
>
> Thanks - 73 de Ken H> K9FV

OK, this is how it works:

- Before you can edit (or create) a page, you need to have an account
registered. Any email address is fine as long as you can get the confirmation
email that the wiki sends out. You also need to enter the text in the image
(the CAPTCHA) otherwise you'll get asked to try again. This is to try and
reduce the risk of automated spam.

- Log in, then open the page you want to edit.

- To edit a section of a page (that is from one heading down to the next),
follow the heading to the right, and you'll see a little "pencil and paper"
icon. That's the 'edit section' button. Click it, and you'll be presented with
a text box, with all the text and Wiki markup pre-entered.

- To edit an existing page, scroll down to the bottom of the page, and
you'll see a white "Edit" link between the bottom of the Wiki page and the
"Powered by TikiWiki" banner. Click that, and you'll get the same edit page
you get for the section-edit function, but with the whole page pre-entered.

- To create a new page, add a link to it to an existing page, then save the
page, click the "?" after the link, and you'll be presented with the edit page.

- If you don't know TikiWiki markup, get to the edit page (the one with the
text box) and click the white "Wiki Help" button underneath and to the left of
the Preview button.

As for the markup language TW uses, here are a few of the basics:
Begin a line with one or more exclamation points ==> heading.
e.g. !Foobar ==> level 1 heading, !!Foobar ==> level 2 heading ...
Begin one or more lines with "* " (asterisk-space) to create a bulleted list
e.g. * foo, * bar, ...
Begin one or more lines with "# " (asterisk-space) to create a numbered list
e.g. # foo, # bar, ...
To create a Wiki-Link, wrap the text in double-brackets (e.g. (( and )) )
e.g. ((DoubleSidedBoardAlignmentMethods))
Unlike most other Wikis, TikiWiki doesn't automatically turn CamelCased
words into links.
To link to another website, do this:
[http://www.google.com/|Google]
For an email address:
[mailto:user@...|A test address]
Put two apostrophes around text to italicise it, or two underscores to
embolden it (make it bold)
e.g. ''Italic'', __Bold__
You can put text in a box like this:
^text in a box^

That covers about half of what TikiWiki can do, but about 90% or so of what
you might need to do. It's a bit different to MediaWiki (the software that
runs Wikipedia) -- I find it easier to use, and it's certainly easier to
configure... I'm not sure how the markup compares, it's been a while since
I've done any more than a minor edit on WP.

Thanks,
--
Phil.
ygroups@...
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

I added a page for the Spirals Challenge.

Steve wrote:

> Maybe a white-list of editors should be set up.

My first idea was to tie it into the members list on Yahoo, but there isn't an
easy way to tie the two together. The only way I could think of doing it would
be to manually check each new user against Yahoo, which seems like a lot of work.

> As moderator of a lot of Yahoogroups, I'm fully aware of how willing
> spammers are to register to post their spam. Not allowing anonymous edits
> will only stop the most casual of vandals.

While I have no problem -- in principle -- of granting Wiki admin access to
moderators/admins on the mailing list, most of the stuff you get access to as
a Wiki admin is internal configuration data and settings. The whole "anyone
can edit" concept of a wiki means that removing spam is something any user can
do (via the edit option). I could add a "Moderators" group and just grant
access to the user admin side of things, but I need to have a read of the
TikiWiki documentation to find out how to do that.

Is there a full list of Homebrew_PCBs moderators/admins around anywhere? I
can't see anything obvious on the group homepage.

> I've registered as Homebrew_PCBs there, fleshed out a few definitions, and
> added a couple.

Thanks -- much appreciated.

--
Phil.
ygroups@...
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

OK, now I see - I was able to do some editing, create a new page - I did not save anything - didn't wish to mess anything up. I think I understand it now.

I think a good idea would be to have on the home page just the very brief explanation of eacg Transfer method, with the title of each a link to a new page with MUCH more detailed info.

Good idea - and if we all work on this, we can make it grow. Then someone new to PCB etching could go to this website and get all the info needed from one spot to start making PCB.

73 de Ken H>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> sailingto wrote:
> > I've just registered myself, but didn't see any way to edit after logging
> > in. I am not familiar with wiki work at all, so I'm sure I'm just missing
> > something.
> >
> > It will be good to have LOTS of info about PCB collected in one space and
> > easy to find.
> >
> > Thanks - 73 de Ken H> K9FV
>
> OK, this is how it works:
>
> - Before you can edit (or create) a page, you need to have an account
> registered. Any email address is fine as long as you can get the confirmation
> email that the wiki sends out. You also need to enter the text in the image
> (the CAPTCHA) otherwise you'll get asked to try again. This is to try and
> reduce the risk of automated spam.
>
> - Log in, then open the page you want to edit.
>
> - To edit a section of a page (that is from one heading down to the next),
> follow the heading to the right, and you'll see a little "pencil and paper"
> icon. That's the 'edit section' button. Click it, and you'll be presented with
> a text box, with all the text and Wiki markup pre-entered.
>
> - To edit an existing page, scroll down to the bottom of the page, and
> you'll see a white "Edit" link between the bottom of the Wiki page and the
> "Powered by TikiWiki" banner. Click that, and you'll get the same edit page
> you get for the section-edit function, but with the whole page pre-entered.
>
> - To create a new page, add a link to it to an existing page, then save the
> page, click the "?" after the link, and you'll be presented with the edit page.
>
> - If you don't know TikiWiki markup, get to the edit page (the one with the
> text box) and click the white "Wiki Help" button underneath and to the left of
> the Preview button.
>
> As for the markup language TW uses, here are a few of the basics:
> Begin a line with one or more exclamation points ==> heading.
> e.g. !Foobar ==> level 1 heading, !!Foobar ==> level 2 heading ...
> Begin one or more lines with "* " (asterisk-space) to create a bulleted list
> e.g. * foo, * bar, ...
> Begin one or more lines with "# " (asterisk-space) to create a numbered list
> e.g. # foo, # bar, ...
> To create a Wiki-Link, wrap the text in double-brackets (e.g. (( and )) )
> e.g. ((DoubleSidedBoardAlignmentMethods))
> Unlike most other Wikis, TikiWiki doesn't automatically turn CamelCased
> words into links.
> To link to another website, do this:
> [http://www.google.com/|Google]
> For an email address:
> [mailto:user@...|A test address]
> Put two apostrophes around text to italicise it, or two underscores to
> embolden it (make it bold)
> e.g. ''Italic'', __Bold__
> You can put text in a box like this:
> ^text in a box^
>
> That covers about half of what TikiWiki can do, but about 90% or so of what
> you might need to do. It's a bit different to MediaWiki (the software that
> runs Wikipedia) -- I find it easier to use, and it's certainly easier to
> configure... I'm not sure how the markup compares, it's been a while since
> I've done any more than a minor edit on WP.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Phil.
> ygroups@...
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>

sailingto wrote:

> OK, now I see - I was able to do some editing, create a new page - I did
> not save anything - didn't wish to mess anything up. I think I understand
> it now.

I think I'm going to create a "Sandbox" page so people can edit pages,
practice with Wiki markup and so on. Though I suspect the "Preview" feature
serves most of that need...

> I think a good idea would be to have on the home page just the very brief
> explanation of eacg Transfer method, with the title of each a link to a new
> page with MUCH more detailed info.

That's what I was planning to do -- I've done a little bit of stuff on the
"exposure evaluation" page (relating to the use of a step tablet to measure UV
exposure) but I'd appreciate it if someone could have a read through, sanity
check it, and possibly complete the "How-to" section.

> Good idea - and if we all work on this, we can make it grow. Then someone
> new to PCB etching could go to this website and get all the info needed
> from one spot to start making PCB.

I have to admit that I'd rather like to see some stuff on UV etching --
especially relating to setting exposure levels. I'm not bothering with
laminating at the moment (though Mega have some UV-exposed solder mask that
looks like it might be fun to play with) but have got a few of the pre-coated
Eurocard-sized 1.6mm Microtrak boards (from Farnell, but made by Mega) and
some of the 0.8mm pre-coated CIF boards as well (again, from Farnell, but more
expensive than the Microtrak boards).

The step guides are sitting on my desk, I'm just trying to figure out how to
use them with positive-acting (where exposed areas wash away in the developer,
i.e. tracks are black on the artwork) photoresist!

--
Phil.
ygroups@...
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:

>
> Steve wrote:
> > Maybe a white-list of editors should be set up.
>
> My first idea was to tie it into the members list on Yahoo, but there isn't an
> easy way to tie the two together. The only way I could think of doing it would
> be to manually check each new user against Yahoo, which seems like a lot of work.

Although that would be an improvement on allowing anyone who registers, there is still the issue of the dedicated spammer that still manages to get in here. Since I have all new members moderated, you don't see the ones that spoof the authentication but then send spam to the list. Sometimes they wait months after joining.

> > As moderator of a lot of Yahoogroups, I'm fully aware of how willing
> > spammers are to register to post their spam. Not allowing anonymous edits
> > will only stop the most casual of vandals.
>
> While I have no problem -- in principle -- of granting Wiki admin access to
> moderators/admins on the mailing list, most of the stuff you get access to as
> a Wiki admin is internal configuration data and settings. The whole "anyone
> can edit" concept of a wiki means that removing spam is something any user can
> do (via the edit option). I could add a "Moderators" group and just grant
> access to the user admin side of things, but I need to have a read of the
> TikiWiki documentation to find out how to do that.
>
> Is there a full list of Homebrew_PCBs moderators/admins around anywhere? I
> can't see anything obvious on the group homepage.

You are looking at him.

> > I've registered as Homebrew_PCBs there, fleshed out a few definitions, and
> > added a couple.
>
> Thanks -- much appreciated.

I'm editing it again right now, adding mechanical milling and links to some Yahoogroups.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:

>
> Steve wrote:
> > Maybe a white-list of editors should be set up.
>
> My first idea was to tie it into the members list on Yahoo, but there isn't an
> easy way to tie the two together. The only way I could think of doing it would
> be to manually check each new user against Yahoo, which seems like a lot of work.
>
> > As moderator of a lot of Yahoogroups, I'm fully aware of how willing
> > spammers are to register to post their spam. Not allowing anonymous edits
> > will only stop the most casual of vandals.
>
> While I have no problem -- in principle -- of granting Wiki admin access to
> moderators/admins on the mailing list, most of the stuff you get access to as
> a Wiki admin is internal configuration data and settings. The whole "anyone
> can edit" concept of a wiki means that removing spam is something any user can
> do (via the edit option).

And if a spammer erases stuff to add their spam, how will those users restore the lost info?

Steve Greenfield

Ok, look, Philip, your a good guy, and I very much appreciate the stuff you've done and published. But lets just think about this for a second:

- you are "toying" with this and asking people to spend there time donating to it with no real guarrenty that it will stay up. On the other hand, http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm has been UP and been an operational wiki since 1999.

- you haven't solved the spam problem except by restricting access. http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm allows anyone to post (login required only to add new pages, or to rearrange or delete content from the page) and I've learned how to block the spam effectively with little effort. And the effort that is required, I have been supplying since 1999.

- you are starting from scratch, and http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm already has a ton of information on making PCBs.

- The content of http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm is regularly copied out on CD's and mirrored to backup locations so there is NO chance of it being lost. Where is all the data that was entered into the mfgr/dist database you used to have on your site?

- I'm a 46 year old business man married with kids and you are a college student.

So, here is what I want to know:

- Why duplicate the effort when http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm is already in place and growing?

- What are you willing to do to ensure the data people take thier time to contribute is not lost, and will continue to be available?

- Who out there has so little reguard for thier time that they would contribute to someones 'toying' around project?

- What the heck is wrong with http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm that people shouldn't use it? Honestly? Really? Could someone PLEASE tell me why you can't use http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm?

- If you can't use http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm, for god sake, why would you not use wikipedia? They have the spam thing solved, they aren't going anywhere and they aren't a toy project.

Did that come off as a rant? Well, IT IS! After working all these years to provide a home for this information, to figure out a balance between the cost of hosting it and the time required to keep it up so that I can justify it as a long term project, it just freaking blows me away that anyone could come along and just freaking waste peoples time by 'toying' around with the idea of putting up yet another wiki.

Again, I like you, I like your site, I love your published projects, but you DID ask for criticisms.

--
James.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> I'm toying with the idea of resurrecting the Homebrew-PCBs Wiki. Well,
> actually, that's a lie -- I've installed TikiWiki on my server and pointed a
> subdomain at it:
> <http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/>
>
> There's not a lot of content there at the moment, but I've set up a basic
> framework, and I'll be putting some of my notes on there over the coming weeks
> (assuming, of course, that I don't end up covering any more shifts at work).
>
> Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so anonymously -- this is
> mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and malicious editing.
>
> Comments and criticisms welcome, as always.
>
> --
> Phil.
> ygroups@...
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>

Steve wrote:

> And if a spammer erases stuff to add their spam, how will those users restore the lost info?

I've just turned on the Rollback and View History features. View History
allows you to view the differences between the current version of a page and
any previous version, and Rollback allows you to roll the page back to a
previous version.

I've also added you to the "Moderators" group, which gives you the ability to
outright remove, or rename pages.

Lastly, I've turned on the Sandbox, which isn't related to what you've asked,
but will allow people to have a play with the Wiki syntax and editing system
without having to create a new page to do so.

Thanks,
--
Phil.
ygroups@...
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

OK, it's pretty clear I've ruffled a few feathers here. That was honestly not
my intention...

To start with, I wanted to collect at least some of the mass of PCB
manufacturing information into a single place. Back in 2007, I did a similar
thing -- in that case, I installed MediaWiki on my server, set up a subdomain
for it, and created a Wiki for homebrew PCBs. That one pretty much boiled away
to nothing -- I don't think anyone other than me (and maybe one other person)
ever edited it, and

> - you are "toying" with this and asking people to spend there time donating
> to it with no real guarrenty that it will stay up. On the other hand,
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm has been UP and been an
> operational wiki since 1999.

No, there isn't a 100% guarantee that it'll stay up. But I doubt there's one
for Massmind either -- what if your datacentre is flooded out, at the same day
lightning strikes your house, and you lose your backup CDs?

Admittedly it's not likely something like this would happen (I suspect William
Hill might give you odds of somewhere around a few million to one) but my
point isn't about likelihood, it's a question of "is it possible for this site
to go down in a way that means it might never come back?"

No matter what you do, the answer is always going to be "yes, it's just very,
very, very, *very* unlikely".

In any case, the current wiki is backed up remotely on a nightly basis. If
something did happen to the server, recovery wouldn't be particularly
difficult (upload the cPConfig file, tell cPanel to load it, then use rsync to
re-upload the files).

> - you haven't solved the spam problem except by restricting access.
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm allows anyone to post (login
> required only to add new pages, or to rearrange or delete content from the
> page) and I've learned how to block the spam effectively with little
> effort. And the effort that is required, I have been supplying since 1999.

I don't expect the "only registered users can post" restriction to stop all
spam, only the bulk of the automated "drive-by" spam attempts.

> Where is all the data that was entered into the mfgr/dist
> database you used to have on your site?

The semiconductor logos database?
I removed it because I just didn't have time to keep it up to date. In any
case, ELNEC made a copy and have been updating it:

http://www.elnec.com/support/ic-logos/

I've still got a copy of the database somewhere around here, and I've been
meaning to re-add it as a web-accessible database. Real life, however, keeps
getting in the way.

> - Who out there has so little reguard for thier time that they would
> contribute to someones 'toying' around project?

Linux started out as someone's "toying around" project.

Ref: Torvalds, Linus. comp.os.minix, 1991-08-25 20:57:08 GMT, "What would you
like to see most in minix?"

I'm not saying this wiki is the next Linux, I'm just pointing out that other
projects started out as someone's pet...

> - If you can't use http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm, for god
> sake, why would you not use wikipedia? They have the spam thing solved,
> they aren't going anywhere and they aren't a toy project.

1) Wikipedia is meant as an encyclopedia. A location that houses a small
amount of information about everything.

2) I don't get on well with the Wikipedia admin team. The bickering and
infighting gets boring after a while.

3) Reinterpreting the question as "why not use MediaWiki?" (MW is the software
that runs Wikipedia) -- it's too complex. While that complexity is needed (for
sites like Wikipedia), I can't see any reason why that power and complexity is
needed for a small wiki that's meant as a companion to a Yahoo mailing list...

> Again, I like you, I like your site, I love your published projects, but
> you DID ask for criticisms.

Maybe I should have said "Comments and constructive criticism welcome"... :)

I have responded to the other criticisms -- the page history feature is now
enabled. To revert a page, click "History" (next to the edit button), then
click the little "R" next to the revision you want to revert to.

Thanks,
--
Phil.
ygroups@...
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

James Newton wrote:

> Ok, look, Philip, your a good guy, and I very much appreciate the stuff you've done and published. But lets just think about this for a second:
>
> - you are "toying" with this and asking people to spend there time donating to it with no real guarrenty that it will stay up. On the other hand, %< has been UP and been an operational wiki since 1999.
>

%< %< %<

James, mentioning 1 (ONE) URL 8 (EIGHT) times in single reply is, in my
opinion too much.

I'm on with Philip's initiative to have a companion Wiki alike for this
group. I have started (last year) a blog related to PCB's and other
stuff and have some entries in English (you may take a look at
http://zastosen.blogspot.com/). Just a few informations and pictures
(too many projects, too little time :().

Your 1 (ONE) URL 8 (EIGHT) times in single reply has some dead links so
please, if you have some spare time, get rid of them

- --
--
Best regards,
Zoran A. Scepanovic
zastos@...
+381 63 609-993
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doing my best to keep this on topic and civil:

1 - I'm on a few lists and it drives me nuts that you need to keep
giving mostly the same answers a few times a year. Before the web, you
could say "see faq 3.7", but since, we have wikis (though someone does
have to maintain them).
2 - Do we have any verified cases of PCB wiki spamming? Unlike yahoo
groups, which all live on one domain name, can be searched and all run
on the same server, the world's many public wikis run on many servers
and systems. Also, all true wiki's have a history capability and can
have editors whitelisted if necessary (and very few do, though most
require registration)
3 - What's at massmind really does not feel like a wiki to me - a
search on "toner transfer" took 11 seconds and turned up what looked
like forum posts. And it's hardly what you'd call readable - it
doesn't even use CSS. I freely admit I didn't spend a lot of time
there, but if there is useful info there, my first instinct would be
to get it ported somewhere else ASAP

At the end of the day, there is no magic AI that converts list posts
into new or ammended wiki pages (which is what I really wish for), so
I doubt I'll personally be involved in any wiki work myself, but if I
was the type of person who did, that's what I'd be doing

PG

On 01/06/2009, at 3:14 AM, James Newton wrote:

>
>
> Ok, look, Philip, your a good guy, and I very much appreciate the
> stuff you've done and published. But lets just think about this for
> a second:
>
> - you are "toying" with this and asking people to spend there time
> donating to it with no real guarrenty that it will stay up. On the
> other hand, http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm has been UP
> and been an operational wiki since 1999.
>
> - you haven't solved the spam problem except by restricting access. http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
> allows anyone to post (login required only to add new pages, or to
> rearrange or delete content from the page) and I've learned how to
> block the spam effectively with little effort. And the effort that
> is required, I have been supplying since 1999.
>
> - you are starting from scratch, and http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htmalready
> has a ton of information on making PCBs.
>
> - The content of http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm is
> regularly copied out on CD's and mirrored to backup locations so
> there is NO chance of it being lost. Where is all the data that was
> entered into the mfgr/dist database you used to have on your site?
>
> - I'm a 46 year old business man married with kids and you are a
> college student.
>
> So, here is what I want to know:
>
> - Why duplicate the effort when http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
> is already in place and growing?
>
> - What are you willing to do to ensure the data people take thier
> time to contribute is not lost, and will continue to be available?
>
> - Who out there has so little reguard for thier time that they would
> contribute to someones 'toying' around project?
>
> - What the heck is wrong with http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm
> that people shouldn't use it? Honestly? Really? Could someone
> PLEASE tell me why you can't use http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm?
>
> - If you can't use http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcbs.htm, for
> god sake, why would you not use wikipedia? They have the spam thing
> solved, they aren't going anywhere and they aren't a toy project.
>
> Did that come off as a rant? Well, IT IS! After working all these
> years to provide a home for this information, to figure out a
> balance between the cost of hosting it and the time required to keep
> it up so that I can justify it as a long term project, it just
> freaking blows me away that anyone could come along and just
> freaking waste peoples time by 'toying' around with the idea of
> putting up yet another wiki.
>
> Again, I like you, I like your site, I love your published projects,
> but you DID ask for criticisms.
>
> --
> James.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> > I'm toying with the idea of resurrecting the Homebrew-PCBs Wiki.
> Well,
> > actually, that's a lie -- I've installed TikiWiki on my server and
> pointed a
> > subdomain at it:
> > <http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/>
> >
> > There's not a lot of content there at the moment, but I've set up
> a basic
> > framework, and I'll be putting some of my notes on there over the
> coming weeks
> > (assuming, of course, that I don't end up covering any more shifts
> at work).
> >
> > Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so
> anonymously -- this is
> > mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and
> malicious editing.
> >
> > Comments and criticisms welcome, as always.
> >
> > --
> > Phil.
> > ygroups@...
> > http://www.philpem.me.uk/
> >
>
>
>

Philip Pemberton wrote:

> Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so anonymously -- this is
> mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and malicious editing.

I totally disagree with this. First I also have wikis, blogs, etc, and
spammers have no trouble to register.

Second, this way you are cutting away a good deal of users that might
improve your wiki dramatically, but are annoyed to register on yet
another system.

bye
as

Reply interspersed below:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:
>
> Doing my best to keep this on topic and civil:
>
> 1 - I'm on a few lists and it drives me nuts that you need to keep
> giving mostly the same answers a few times a year. Before the web, you
> could say "see faq 3.7", but since, we have wikis (though someone does
> have to maintain them).

If the wiki were associated with the Yahoo list, this point might have some validity. How will people who find the list find the wiki? More importantly, why does this mean the wiki has to be a toy? Why can't it be a real, well established site, that already has tons of information on it?

> 2 - Do we have any verified cases of PCB wiki spamming? Unlike yahoo
> groups, which all live on one domain name, can be searched and all run
> on the same server, the world's many public wikis run on many servers
> and systems. Also, all true wiki's have a history capability and can
> have editors whitelisted if necessary (and very few do, though most
> require registration)

I can forward you literally thousands of attempts to spam massmind.org. Other wiki owners will share the same experience with you. Once a wiki becomes well enough indexed and popular, it gets spammed.

> 3 - What's at massmind really does not feel like a wiki to me - a
> search on "toner transfer" took 11 seconds and turned up what looked
> like forum posts. And it's hardly what you'd call readable - it
> doesn't even use CSS. I freely admit I didn't spend a lot of time
> there, but if there is useful info there, my first instinct would be
> to get it ported somewhere else ASAP

Where to start?

1. Why does it have to "feel like a wiki"? It has a form at the bottom of each page where you can post content. If you register, you can edit the page. Thats a wiki. Show me another definition.

2. If you think it should have CCS send me the CCS you like and I'll put it up. That is the spirit of a wiki: People consolidateing information in a centeral usefull place and all helping to make it better. Not fragmenting and each publishing thier own project on thier own ego page. Not duplicating effort. Not wasting peoples time. Seriously, I agree the site could use CCS. If anyone has some ability and time, I would appreciate the help.

3. That same search on toner transfer is now instant. Really, try it. The site learns what people want and speeds up searches for that. And although there are 2 (very relevant) posts from a really great email list, the 3rd, 4th and 5th results are all perfectly on topic and good content that would have answered those FAQs you are concerned about.

4. Again, even if you can't stand me, or my site, why not use any of the many other very well run systems that are already in existance and running like a dream? instructables, wikihow, wikipedia (which already has an entry for Printed Circuit Board) and on and on... why start Yet Another Wiki?

>
> At the end of the day, there is no magic AI that converts list posts
> into new or ammended wiki pages (which is what I really wish for), so
> I doubt I'll personally be involved in any wiki work myself, but if I
> was the type of person who did, that's what I'd be doing
>
> PG
>


The magic AI is hard working people who care about others and are willing to take the time to share what they have learned in a centeralized place.

Best Wishes.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

>
> Philip Pemberton wrote:
>
> > Anyone is welcome to edit the Wiki, but you can't do so anonymously -- this is
> > mainly to prevent (or at least try and prevent) spam posts and malicious editing.
>
>
> I totally disagree with this. First I also have wikis, blogs, etc, and
> spammers have no trouble to register.
>
> Second, this way you are cutting away a good deal of users that might
> improve your wiki dramatically, but are annoyed to register on yet
> another system.
>
> bye
> as
>

This has also been my experience. http://techref.massmind.org doesn't require any registration to post new information. It checks for common spam words, and has a system that keeps the spam that does get posted from being seen by anyone other than the poster until I remove it, which I can do with a single click. Lots of people contribute now, but when I started I required registration and no one else used it.

Best wishes.

Late reply, but:

I am new to the list, but before joining i spent hundreds of hours
searching for things already answered here. The list as the best people
but the system doesn't help much. Content is not searchable by google,
and to view the 'files content' we have to pass trough a hateful yahoo
query that i refuse to do so.

So the necessity of a wiki is something i also had think about earlier.
And i have taken dozens of text pages in notes about relevant matters.
But the obvious question of wikipedia vs dedicated, all other questions
already discussed, and my experience in wiki edit and content writing
got me to one conclusion.

Writing a good content is hard as writing a book, and still is a
rewriting of content from much other places. There is nothing that you
can put in a wiki that isn't already in the web, and who archive a
breakthrough i bet he/she will make is own web page.

One nice thing of personal web pages is that you get the owner name,
where is from, gives the true sense of global world (pcb is done
everywhere). And there is much great content from list members already.

The best thing you can do is placing pointers to those sites, or guides
by subject. In a very organized manner. My experience with wikis says
you can't expect someone else organizes the content for you, and is even
harder having someone to correct bad content or reorganizing it.
So a structure like a book contents section it's your best starting
point.

One nice feature you can add is a resurrection of the IRC bots in a mail
manner. Will be more helpful, to reply a conclusion to an email address
after a thread, than going through a wiki and edit something. And you
can expect more user content from that.

Making the yahoo only content more accessible will be appreciated too.

On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 22:47 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>
>
> sailingto wrote:
> > OK, now I see - I was able to do some editing, create a new page - I
> did
> > not save anything - didn't wish to mess anything up. I think I
> understand
> > it now.
>
> I think I'm going to create a "Sandbox" page so people can edit
> pages,
> practice with Wiki markup and so on. Though I suspect the "Preview"
> feature
> serves most of that need...
>
> > I think a good idea would be to have on the home page just the very
> brief
> > explanation of eacg Transfer method, with the title of each a link
> to a new
> > page with MUCH more detailed info.
>
> That's what I was planning to do -- I've done a little bit of stuff on
> the
> "exposure evaluation" page (relating to the use of a step tablet to
> measure UV
> exposure) but I'd appreciate it if someone could have a read through,
> sanity
> check it, and possibly complete the "How-to" section.
>
> > Good idea - and if we all work on this, we can make it grow. Then
> someone
> > new to PCB etching could go to this website and get all the info
> needed
> > from one spot to start making PCB.
>
> I have to admit that I'd rather like to see some stuff on UV etching
> --
> especially relating to setting exposure levels. I'm not bothering
> with
> laminating at the moment (though Mega have some UV-exposed solder mask
> that
> looks like it might be fun to play with) but have got a few of the
> pre-coated
> Eurocard-sized 1.6mm Microtrak boards (from Farnell, but made by Mega)
> and
> some of the 0.8mm pre-coated CIF boards as well (again, from Farnell,
> but more
> expensive than the Microtrak boards).
>
> The step guides are sitting on my desk, I'm just trying to figure out
> how to
> use them with positive-acting (where exposed areas wash away in the
> developer,
> i.e. tracks are black on the artwork) photoresist!
>
> --
> Phil.
> ygroups@...
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>
>
>
>