Homebrew PCBs

Hi,
I'm new to the idea of homebrew PCBs and was wondering if someone could offer some assistance on what thickness is easiest for working with for copper-clad boards.

There is a fellow on eBay who sells various types of copper-clad.

First of all, he sells FR-4 (clad on both sides) in .030, .047, .052, .060 thicknesses.

Then, he sells CEM (clad on one side) in .033, .047, and .060 thicknesses.

I understand that the thinner it is the easier it is to "break" into smaller pieces.

I also understand that the single-sided boards might be more suited to ground plane construction.

Any other tips? 

Thanks!
-john

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "shadle" <shadle@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:29 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] recommended thickness for boards


> Hi,
> I'm new to the idea of homebrew PCBs and was wondering if someone could 
> offer some assistance on what thickness is easiest for working with for 
> copper-clad boards.
>
> There is a fellow on eBay who sells various types of copper-clad.
>
> First of all, he sells FR-4 (clad on both sides) in .030, .047, .052, .060 
> thicknesses.
>
> Then, he sells CEM (clad on one side) in .033, .047, and .060 thicknesses.
>
> I understand that the thinner it is the easier it is to "break" into 
> smaller pieces.
>
> I also understand that the single-sided boards might be more suited to 
> ground plane construction.

CEM is *much* easier to drill and cut than FR4.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

My stock includes 0.008 and 0.016 thick SS clad.  I have some 0.032
DS.  What I normally do is mask and etch the two (or four) sides
separately, then adhere them with double-sided sticky tape and drill.
For small boards, I do both sides on one piece of PCB and cut them
apart, saving time.

Two 0.16 taped together yeild a 1/32" DS.  If you add two 0.008 outer
layers it's a bit thinner than standard 1/16" boards (the copper and
tape add thickness).  However, it's much easier to cut 0.008 and 0.016
than 1/16" - so I do most of the cutting *before* taping, then sand or
file the edges smooth afterwards.

Also, the thinner boards work much better in the laminator.

I do have some 1/16" stock but as it doesn't fit in the laminator, I
only use it when I need the extra strength.

Is this eBay seller atmel33461? If so, I just bought some boards from him, and was extremely pleased. Not only was the price great, and the shipping very quick, but also (perhaps most important of all) he was very prompt in replying to questions. I bought two "lots" of boards in different thicknesses/types; he helped me to understand how to do that and still combine the shipping. Based on this experience, I highly recommend this seller!

Andy

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "shadle" <shadle@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> I'm new to the idea of homebrew PCBs and was wondering if someone could offer some assistance on what thickness is easiest for working with for copper-clad boards.
> 
> There is a fellow on eBay who sells various types of copper-clad.
> 
> First of all, he sells FR-4 (clad on both sides) in .030, .047, .052, .060 thicknesses.
> 
> Then, he sells CEM (clad on one side) in .033, .047, and .060 thicknesses.
> 
> I understand that the thinner it is the easier it is to "break" into smaller pieces.
> 
> I also understand that the single-sided boards might be more suited to ground plane construction.
> 
> Any other tips? 
> 
> Thanks!
> -john
>

When you do four layers, how do you connect to the internal layers?

Regards,
Royce

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

>
> 
> My stock includes 0.008 and 0.016 thick SS clad.  I have some 0.032
> DS.  What I normally do is mask and etch the two (or four) sides
> separately, then adhere them with double-sided sticky tape and drill.
> For small boards, I do both sides on one piece of PCB and cut them
> apart, saving time.
> 
> Two 0.16 taped together yeild a 1/32" DS.  If you add two 0.008 outer
> layers it's a bit thinner than standard 1/16" boards (the copper and
> tape add thickness).  However, it's much easier to cut 0.008 and 0.016
> than 1/16" - so I do most of the cutting *before* taping, then sand or
> file the edges smooth afterwards.
> 
> Also, the thinner boards work much better in the laminator.
> 
> I do have some 1/16" stock but as it doesn't fit in the laminator, I
> only use it when I need the extra strength.
>

"roycepipkins" <royce.pipkins@...> writes:
> When you do four layers, how do you connect to the internal layers?

You pre-drill the outer layers bigger before stacking them, so you can
solder the inner layers with an iron.

4 layer boards require a really elaborate process involving very
sophisticated laser drills, and a very laborious plating-through process.
It's always automated on bajillion dollar machines.

I've heard of some adventurous hobbyists playing with they're own 4 layer
solutions, but they can't get close to the pitch that the fancy-pants
machines are doing.

I'd LOVE to find one of those fancy machines in a liquidation or surplus
sale. I wouldn't care that it would take up half my garage. rofl.


Oh, and by the way, the terms FR-4 and CEM refer to the substrate that the
boards are made of, and not how many sides are clad with copper. FR-4 is a
UL flame retardant specification, and will usually refer to a board that is
Epoxy Resin bonded fiberglass. CEM boards are often a Synthetic Resin bonded
paper. So be careful when choosing your boards, and don't just assume that
all FR-4 Boards are double clad.

Peace!
-Mike

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>wrote:

>
>
> When you do four layers, how do you connect to the internal layers?
>
> Regards,
> Royce
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, DJ
> Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > My stock includes 0.008 and 0.016 thick SS clad. I have some 0.032
> > DS. What I normally do is mask and etch the two (or four) sides
> > separately, then adhere them with double-sided sticky tape and drill.
> > For small boards, I do both sides on one piece of PCB and cut them
> > apart, saving time.
> >
> > Two 0.16 taped together yeild a 1/32" DS. If you add two 0.008 outer
> > layers it's a bit thinner than standard 1/16" boards (the copper and
> > tape add thickness). However, it's much easier to cut 0.008 and 0.016
> > than 1/16" - so I do most of the cutting *before* taping, then sand or
> > file the edges smooth afterwards.
> >
> > Also, the thinner boards work much better in the laminator.
> >
> > I do have some 1/16" stock but as it doesn't fit in the laminator, I
> > only use it when I need the extra strength.
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Mike Oyama" <mikesb0x0fm4il2@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: recommended thickness for boards



>
> Oh, and by the way, the terms FR-4 and CEM refer to the substrate that the
> boards are made of, and not how many sides are clad with copper. FR-4 is a
> UL flame retardant specification, and will usually refer to a board that 
> is
> Epoxy Resin bonded fiberglass. CEM boards are often a Synthetic Resin 
> bonded
> paper. So be careful when choosing your boards, and don't just assume that
> all FR-4 Boards are double clad.

CEM isn't SRBP! It's a composite of thin fibreglass and compressed paper.

Leon

Sorry, I thought that was what SRBP was. A little more research and I found
this
http://www.felsweb.com/lam_faq.htm#E
which seems to explain things pretty well.

Sorry for the misinformation


On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 8:46 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Oyama" <mikesb0x0fm4il2@...<mikesb0x0fm4il2%40gmail.com>
> >
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: recommended thickness for boards
>
> >
> > Oh, and by the way, the terms FR-4 and CEM refer to the substrate that
> the
> > boards are made of, and not how many sides are clad with copper. FR-4 is
> a
> > UL flame retardant specification, and will usually refer to a board that
> > is
> > Epoxy Resin bonded fiberglass. CEM boards are often a Synthetic Resin
> > bonded
> > paper. So be careful when choosing your boards, and don't just assume
> that
> > all FR-4 Boards are double clad.
>
> CEM isn't SRBP! It's a composite of thin fibreglass and compressed paper.
>
> Leon
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Mike Oyama" <mikesb0x0fm4il2@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: recommended thickness for boards


> Sorry, I thought that was what SRBP was. A little more research and I 
> found
> this
> http://www.felsweb.com/lam_faq.htm#E
> which seems to explain things pretty well.

I mostly use precoated CEM-1 material, it's much easier to cut and drill 
than FR4. The only disadvantage is that the single-sided stuff can bow, 
which causes problems with large boards.

Leon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> My stock includes 0.008 and 0.016 thick SS clad.  I have some 0.032
> DS.  

...
 
> Also, the thinner boards work much better in the laminator.
> 
> I do have some 1/16" stock but as it doesn't fit in the laminator, I
> only use it when I need the extra strength.
>

I tend to prefer boards .033 mil and thinner.  I prefer to standardize the X x Y dimensions to Eurocard (160mm x 100 mm)  (I think Eurocard is the correct term)  or more often half Eurocard (100 x 80mm).  With standard dimensions for most of my projects I can stock small cases with a lot less hassle.  I see so many projects that don't *quite* fit any available enclosure.   

Not much that I want to build these days really takes up more than the half size card. I really don't like small items built on board thicker than 1/16" (preferably 0.030 mil) - it just seems clumsy.

Of course, it depends on the amount of flex the board is expected to encounter, as well as the frequencies and character of signals on the board.  High quality board has well defined properties at high signal clock speeds & for RF, so it depends a lot on what you are doing.

I have wondered whether I tend too much to thinner board.  But as time goes on and I do less and less through-hole and ever smaller boards, I sort of feel vindicated.  I'd like to know what others think.

I have read somewhere that 1/2 oz copper is better for beginners because it reduces undercutting and gives a quicker etch.  That seems somewhat credible especially in low current, small signal boards.  I haven't used much stock that has more than 1 oz of copper, but 2 oz would seem like a good idea for motor controller boards and the like.

-- Dave

Oops!! Sorry all -- that's amt33461. No affiliation, etc., etc. -- just got the link from this forum, tried it, and was very satisfied.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "awakephd" <a_wake@...> wrote:

>
> Is this eBay seller atmel33461? If so, I just bought some boards from him, and was extremely pleased. Not only was the price great, and the shipping very quick, but also (perhaps most important of all) he was very prompt in replying to questions. I bought two "lots" of boards in different thicknesses/types; he helped me to understand how to do that and still combine the shipping. Based on this experience, I highly recommend this seller!
> 
> Andy
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "shadle" <shadle@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I'm new to the idea of homebrew PCBs and was wondering if someone could offer some assistance on what thickness is easiest for working with for copper-clad boards.
> > 
> > There is a fellow on eBay who sells various types of copper-clad.
> > 
> > First of all, he sells FR-4 (clad on both sides) in .030, .047, .052, .060 thicknesses.
> > 
> > Then, he sells CEM (clad on one side) in .033, .047, and .060 thicknesses.
> > 
> > I understand that the thinner it is the easier it is to "break" into smaller pieces.
> > 
> > I also understand that the single-sided boards might be more suited to ground plane construction.
> > 
> > Any other tips? 
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > -john
> >
>

http://www.instructables.com/id/Killer-PCBs/  This instructable 
demonstrates the process for making printed circuit boards with 
features as small as 0.005 suitable for LQFP or QFN ICs using 
negative dry film photoresist. This will enable you to handle just 
about any kind of integrated circuit available--even ball grid array! 
Pictured are boards with a TSSOP-14, QFN-40 packages using a .65mm 
pitch and zero insertion force flex sockets with .5mm pitch.


William Alford

GI Motility Medical Research Page
http://alford.grimtrojan.com/ 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]