Homebrew_PCBs

> Today I needed a board.... NOW...... so I made one.
> Wish I had through hole plating, but that would only have added some
> more time, I hand wired the via's by riveting soft copper wire into the
> 16 mil holes.
>
> SMD C's and R's are 0805
>
> Transparencies exposed in my workshop normal room lighting, printed
> using HP laserjet 1100, in the ground plane area I can see light through
> it, it look grey when held up to room light. Notice the ground plans are
> clean and show not problem with what many would say was not dark enough.
>

>
> OK so this only has everyday 0805 and 10 mil traces nothing super
> small. Notice where possible I make via pads as big, I like to make it
> easy for myself.
>
> So... the edges may not be razor sharp, but I'm fairly sure the
> electrons are not going to complain about that, I think they like the
> silver plating...( I used CoolAmp)
>
> The point is, making everyday boards does not require rocket science,
> special printers and all that. Just get to know you Light source,
> distance and
> the Lye developer and you can made boards like this all day long.
>
> Could I have done it with an inkjet printer, well I'm sure I could, but
> the LJ prints the artwork in 20 seconds, none of my three InkJet and do
> that !
>
> If anyone has a problem with this kind of board lets hears some sensible
> arguments, tell me why it's not going to work, and explain the reason
> please...
>
> As far as I'm concerned the issue that Laser Jet's are not good, is now
> put to rest once and for all.
> I suspect the people that tried LJ's may have had poor results because
> of bad media, or toner cartridge may have been low, or both.

> I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or cpu
> boards with a laser...
>
>

>>I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or cpu
>>boards with a laser...
>>
> The printer is not as big an issue as you think. I have done boards with
> FPGA on them in the past with a laser printer. All of my boards have been
> made with laser. I made them for a customer. He complimented the work and
> ordered more. Quit running down laser printers and look closer at your
> process. It is getting tiresome to hear the same ranting and raving about
> the printer type on this list. Others have mentioned that they have had
> success with them. If you have been following the thread, someone has also
> mentioned that the transparency type makes a difference. Telling everyone to
> avoid laser printers is spreading misinformation and is not helpful to this
> list.

> Hans Wedemeyer wrote:
>>
>>As far as I'm concerned the issue that Laser Jet's are not good, is now
>>put to rest once and for all.
>>I suspect the people that tried LJ's may have had poor results because
>>of bad media, or toner cartridge may have been low, or both.
>
>
> I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or cpu
> boards with a laser...
>

>
> > I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or
> cpu
> > boards with a laser...
> >
> >
> The printer is not as big an issue as you think. I have done boards
> with
> FPGA on them in the past with a laser printer. All of my boards have
> been
> made with laser. I made them for a customer. He complimented the work
> and
> ordered more. Quit running down laser printers and look closer at your
>
> process. It is getting tiresome to hear the same ranting and raving
> about
> the printer type on this list. Others have mentioned that they have
> had
> success with them. If you have been following the thread, someone has
> also
> mentioned that the transparency type makes a difference. Telling
> everyone to
> avoid laser printers is spreading misinformation and is not helpful to
> this
> list.
> -Mike
>
>
>
>
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>If you can say definitely that you can do
> fpga boards with 8mil tracks and spacing over the lifetime of the printer,

> shut up. Also, can you get good alignment for 1mm via pads when doing

> PCBs? (thermal expansion problems). With the right inkjet, i can make

> (15x15cm) double-sided boards with 0.8mm track and spacing and 64pin 0.1"

> with no alignment problems with 0.8/1.0mm via pads. I do get some breaks

> shorts because of dust or "stuck" resist. Suitable inkjets (like epson

> go for $5 or give-away on ebay while lasers cost a lot more.

> Mike,
> That's the reason I posted this today.... I'm also sick of the same old
> crap about lasjer jet not being any good... it really is
> misinformation...

> The other point that I can't abid is them needless search for absolute
> blackness in the film... Special this and special that... hog wash...

> I use MSOP a lot of the time that's 0.0256" (0.65mm) and have no problem
> at all.

> With regards to 8 mil..... well I demonstrated today, 10 mil is run of
> the mil and 8 mil is just as easy.

> I remember a stupid board I was presented with some years ago, it was a
> very simple circuit about 10 components and the board was about 4" X 4"
> ( Deer feeder controller) and the person used 8 mil lines and the
> smallest pads ! When they tried to change components of course without a
> vacuum driven desoldering tool, pads lifted of and traces got broken.
> The golden rule is when you have the space USE IT....

> I can do 5 mil if I use Apollo CG7060 film, 3M CG 3300 is only good to
> 10 mil (8 at a stretch, with some touch up afterwards)
>
> During the years I have trashed two Epson Inkjet (700 dpi) printers
> because the nozzles got blocked and I tried everything to devolve the
> hardened ink, but nothing worked. At the time Epson offered a head
> replacement for $130.... I went out and purchased a HP inkjet printer
> instead for less.

> If people are dumping Epson Inkjet printers for $5 I'd say good luck to
> anyone buying one, perhaps buy two and hope the parts are
> interchangeable... There are also good deals on eBay for HP Laser
> Jets...

> I've only put one new toner in this LaserJet since I purchased it two
> years ago, my other one (same type, yes I have 5 printers...) is about 6
> months older than that and it's on the third toner.
> I buy real HP toners for about $48.... I wonder what Epson's inkjet
> cartridges cost... !

>>go for $5 or give-away on ebay while lasers cost a lot more.
>
> Russell,
> Where are you finding these $5 and give away printers on E-Bay? I have been
> looking for a cheap one to tear apart and try the inkjet straight to a PCB
> idea that was on this list earlier.

> With a laser printer, I have gone down to 7 mil track and spacing. I have
> never needed to go smaller than this on traces and it works fine. I have
> never had to deal with breaks or shorts from a laser print. There is some
> distortion on larger boards near the end of the print, but if you print in
> the same direction from both transparencies, the distortion is not usually
> noticable from side to side. The distrtion is also not enough to cause a
> problem with parts distance or alignment/size. Any distortion that is a
> problem is fixed easily in Acrobat distiller. Like Hans said, you do not
> need total blackness. The trick is to get all the traces and pads the same
> color, whatever shade of black or grey that may be. If it is consistent,
> then it is all a matter of your exposure distance, time and light source.
> Best regards,
> -Mike

>I spent 2 years looking for a cheap way to get good consistant print-outs.
>Lasers never worked for finer stuff. If you can say definitely that you can do
>fpga boards with 8mil tracks and spacing over the lifetime of the printer, i'll
>shut up. Also, can you get good alignment for 1mm via pads when doing double-sided
>PCBs? (thermal expansion problems). With the right inkjet, i can make perfect
>(15x15cm) double-sided boards with 0.8mm track and spacing and 64pin 0.1" connectors
>with no alignment problems with 0.8/1.0mm via pads. I do get some breaks and
>shorts because of dust or "stuck" resist. Suitable inkjets (like epson stylus colour)
>go for $5 or give-away on ebay while lasers cost a lot more.

>i believe that it is possible. i don't doubt that.
>
>but with my old laser jet IIID and with a bad cheap toner and with poor
>cheap ohp transparencys i can't to it.
>even on 1mm tracks the center is missing toner. not to talk about ground
>planes...

>i think it is possible to make good films with a laser, also with mine.
>but it is also possible to make bad films, with only one bad component
>(film, toner, printer).

>i have tried with some different transparencys.
>but not with tracing paper - didn't see it here anywhere.

>the problem is i can't go out and buy "appollo transparencys" because i
>know they work.
>they are simply not sold here (as far as i know)....

>so i have to experiment myself...

> I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or

> boards with a laser...

> I've been doing 100 a few tqfp's that work pretty well. I've just
> started using toner transfer for the last little while; I'm sold on
> it.
>
> Pictures
> http://wheedal.dyndns.org:8255
>
> ? I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or
> cpu
> ? boards with a laser...
>
>
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>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wheedal99" <wheedal@h...> wrote:
> I've been doing 100 a few tqfp's that work pretty well. I've just
> started using toner transfer for the last little while; I'm sold on
> it.
>
> Pictures
> http://wheedal.dyndns.org:8255
>
> > I'd just like to know if anyone has done fine-pitch 256 pin fpga or
> cpu
> > boards with a laser...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rolanyang" <rolan@h...> wrote:
> For small runs, toner transfer is definitely the way to go.
> What is your strategy for separating the paper from the PCB
> after you've ironed? It looks very clean.

> > Pictures
> > http://wheedal.dyndns.org:8255

> > Where are you finding these $5 and give away printers on E-Bay? I have

> > looking for a cheap one to tear apart and try the inkjet straight to a

> > idea that was on this list earlier.
>
> Enter: epson stylus
> into the ebay search box. For ebay.com.au, the first hit is a stylus C20SX
> for $5 with 3 hours to go.
>
>

>
> http://www.sold.com.au
> Stylus 460 for $1:

>

> Very nice.... I'm impressed... bu then Laser can't do this... right ?
> :-)
> Hans W
>
> wheedal99 wrote:
>
>
>> I've been doing 100 a few tqfp's that work pretty well. I've just
>>started using toner transfer for the last little while; I'm sold on
>>it.

>> > Where are you finding these $5 and give away printers on E-Bay? I have
>> been looking for a cheap one to tear apart and try the inkjet straight to a
>> PCB idea that was on this list earlier.
>>
>>Enter: epson stylus
>>into the ebay search box. For ebay.com.au, the first hit is a stylus C20SX
>>for $5 with 3 hours to go.
>
> http://search.ebay.com.au/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&c
> giurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com.au%2Fws%2F
>
>>http://www.sold.com.au
>>Stylus 460 for $1:
>
> http://au.list.sold.yahoo.com/au/23416-category-leaf.html
>
> Thanks, but the shipping from AU to US would not be worthwhile for a $5
> printer.
> -Mike

> Hans Wedemeyer wrote:
> Try doing a whole board. I've never got all the pads or tracks to
> stick, and i even made special heated press from 5/8" aluminium

> to get even pressure and temperature control. The other problem is
> that the pressure can cause tracks to be flattened which makes them
> spread wider causing ragged edges and shorts.

> Try doing a whole board. I've never got all the pads or tracks to
> stick, and i even made special heated press from 5/8" aluminium

> to get even pressure and temperature control. The other problem is
> that the pressure can cause tracks to be flattened which makes them
> spread wider causing ragged edges and shorts.

> I'm not sure what you mean by a "whole board". Almost everything I
> do is under 6"x6". Anything larger, or more complicated I send out.
> Ordering boards is fairly inexpensive these days so the only reason I
> do some of them myself is to save time. What were you trying to do
> that didn't work?
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@i...>
> wrote:
> > Hans Wedemeyer wrote:
> > Try doing a whole board. I've never got all the pads or tracks to
> > stick, and i even made special heated press from 5/8" aluminium
> slabs
> > to get even pressure and temperature control. The other problem is
> > that the pressure can cause tracks to be flattened which makes them
> > spread wider causing ragged edges and shorts.
>
>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@i...>
> wrote:
>>Try doing a whole board. I've never got all the pads or tracks to
>>stick, and i even made special heated press from 5/8" aluminium
>> slabs to get even pressure and temperature control. The other problem is
>>that the pressure can cause tracks to be flattened which makes them
>>spread wider causing ragged edges and shorts.

> I'm not sure what you mean by a "whole board". Almost everything I
> do is under 6"x6". Anything larger, or more complicated I send out.
> Ordering boards is fairly inexpensive these days so the only reason I
> do some of them myself is to save time. What were you trying to do
> that didn't work?

----- Original Message -----
From: "wheedal99" <wheedal@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 4:58 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: the naked truth about Laser Jet, warts and all
!


>
> One thing that this method won't do is large flooded areas --at least
> with my printer. I don't think the HP 5L puts down even coverage
> when covering large surfaces. If I need to have flooded regions, I
> go through with a staedler marker and touch up the fallout.
>

I use cross-hatching on copper pour areas with my LJ IIIp. They come out
very well. Worth trying if your CAD software does it (Pulsonix does).

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon_heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

> http://wheedal.dyndns.org:8255

> As far as I'm concerned the issue that Laser Jet's are not good,

> put to rest once and for all.
> I suspect the people that tried LJ's may have had poor results

> of bad media, or toner cartridge may have been low, or both.