Homebrew PCBs

I am currently trying to see if I can find some copper foil that I
could adhere to other materials such as glass. I am wondering how
difficult it would be to make PCBs that are just a bit different. If i
could adhere foil to a glass sheet that would be kinda cool. I suppose
the radio guys use ceramics? I am not sure how easy this is but i
would like to find out. 

Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of some?

Thanks

Trev

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "trevwhite74" <trevor.white100@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:53 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Foils


>I am currently trying to see if I can find some copper foil that I
> could adhere to other materials such as glass. I am wondering how
> difficult it would be to make PCBs that are just a bit different. If i
> could adhere foil to a glass sheet that would be kinda cool. I suppose
> the radio guys use ceramics? I am not sure how easy this is but i
> would like to find out.
>
> Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of some?
>

Drilling the holes will be a bit difficult. You'll have to use diamond 
drills.

Leon

At 06:53 AM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of some?

you can get it at various handicraft stores like, Hobby Lobby, and 
such . sometimes in the leaded glass section. they also usually have 
in it in adhesive tape of various widths. intriguing notion, but 
can't see worth the effort except as personal cool self expression 
and enrichment. to drill glass, you must continually spray with water 
to cool the bit and glass. i've used the "so-called" carbide glass 
bits from Home Depot and they only last through 6 or so holes before 
becoming dull. hard to find diamond bits in small sizes, but even 
they need water flow.


William Alford

GI Motility Medical Research Page
http://alford.grimtrojan.com/  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LaserPCBs are copper foil epoxied to a heat-resistant backing and a
pressure sensitive adhesive.

www.laserpcb.com


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "trevwhite74"
<trevor.white100@...> wrote:
>
> I am currently trying to see if I can find some copper foil that I
> could adhere to other materials such as glass. I am wondering how
> difficult it would be to make PCBs that are just a bit different. If i
> could adhere foil to a glass sheet that would be kinda cool. I suppose
> the radio guys use ceramics? I am not sure how easy this is but i
> would like to find out. 
> 
> Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of
some?

> 
> Thanks
> 
> Trev
>

> Drilling the holes will be a bit difficult. You'll have to use diamond 
> drills.
> 
> Leon

SMD? -> no holes

I have some copper foils (quite thick at 0.25 mm), I used double sided
adhesive(in film roll 60 cm wide) to stick it to plexiglas, then
etched it with photospray.

Problem was first that the adhesive was not as transparent as
plexiglas, and you could notice it, removing the adhesive was
impossible, second laminating it to the plexiglas was very difficult.

> LaserPCBs are copper foil epoxied to a heat-resistant backing and a
> pressure sensitive adhesive.
> 
> www.laserpcb.com
> 

Okay, this stuff looks perfect. Thanks so much. 

I was thinking about the different materials i could use. I think
clear acrylic would be very cool but it probably will not cope with
soldering unless I am very quick. 

I started thinking glass would be very cool but working with it may be
difficult. I have a milling machine so if I can find the correct tools
then I might be on to something. I suppose I can cut the glass fine.
What need is to find some way to drill the holes. Also i need to be
careful about cracking it with localised heating when soldering. Maybe
if I used a solder paste and heated the whole board this would work okay?

Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
goes up to 60krpm. Be nice to hear of any experience before i risk
destroying some drill bits trying.

Anyone have suggestions for other cool materials? Maybe 'Mother of
Pearl Shell'. All just thoughts at the moment but could be pretty cool. 

Trev

trevwhite74 wrote:
> I am currently trying to see if I can find some copper foil that I
> could adhere to other materials such as glass. I am wondering how
> difficult it would be to make PCBs that are just a bit different. If i
> could adhere foil to a glass sheet that would be kinda cool. I suppose
> the radio guys use ceramics? I am not sure how easy this is but i
> would like to find out. 
> 
> Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of some?
> 

People have been coating silver on glass for many years, so I cannot see 
why copper cannot be deposited, even if over a silver seed layer. Even 
if you could economically drill holes in glass, I think thermal stress 
cracking of the soldering process will haunt you. Talk to people who 
manufacture hybrid PCBs and use those 800C oven cured conductive inks. 
Shouldn't be difficult to set up in one's own backyard.
Have fun.

Adam

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:29:33 -0000, you wrote:


>I was thinking about the different materials i could use. I think
>clear acrylic would be very cool but it probably will not cope with
>soldering unless I am very quick. 
>
>I started thinking glass would be very cool but working with it may be
>difficult. I have a milling machine so if I can find the correct tools
>then I might be on to something. I suppose I can cut the glass fine.
>What need is to find some way to drill the holes. Also i need to be
>careful about cracking it with localised heating when soldering. Maybe
>if I used a solder paste and heated the whole board this would work okay?
>
>Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
>standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
>goes up to 60krpm. Be nice to hear of any experience before i risk
>destroying some drill bits trying.
>
>Anyone have suggestions for other cool materials? Maybe 'Mother of
>Pearl Shell'. All just thoughts at the moment but could be pretty cool. 
>
>Trev
>
Pyrex glass....preheat...stick to SMT parts?

Just a thought.

Thanks guys for the answers. 

I think definately SMT. 

I also think that if I can score and tap the redundant glass away then
any shapes required should be fine. 

With regard to drilling, I think this represents the biggest
challenge. I have two theories. One is to run the other way and design
as much as I can that does not need any holes. Then holes that are
required will most likely be done by hand after an accurate position
score point is generated for positioning. 

Heating I think will not be an issue if I use a reflow oven style
curve and heat things gently. 

I just need to find out more about the different types of glass. 

Thanks for everyones input. 

Trev

At 01:29 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
>standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
>goes up to 60krpm.

i've drilled glass and ceramic tile and stone. you need to drill 
*slowly*. and spray repeatedly with water to keep cool and remove 
residue. i've used tungsten carbide bits (can get at home depot in a 
few sizes) and they do work but have a short lifetime. i got about 6 
- 10 holes per bit before wearing out. most of my drilling was in 
1/4" glass and granite, so i don't know what thickness you intend. 
diamond bits are better, but still require water to last.


William Alford

GI Motility Medical Research Page
http://alford.grimtrojan.com/  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, William Alford wrote:

> At 01:29 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>> Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
>> standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
>> goes up to 60krpm.
>
> i've drilled glass and ceramic tile and stone. you need to drill
> *slowly*. and spray repeatedly with water to keep cool and remove
> residue. i've used tungsten carbide bits (can get at home depot in a
> few sizes) and they do work but have a short lifetime. i got about 6
> - 10 holes per bit before wearing out. most of my drilling was in
> 1/4" glass and granite, so i don't know what thickness you intend.
> diamond bits are better, but still require water to last.

I have a book somewhere that describes making a drill bit by mounting a 
copper or brass tube on a steel mandrel.  Cut two V-shaped notches in the 
business end.  A clay dam is built up around where the hole will go. 
Pour an abrasive slurry in there and carefully lower the drill.  Top up 
with water/slurry as needed.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi@...

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 2:54 PM, William Alford <walford@...> wrote:
> At 01:29 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>>Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
>>standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
>>goes up to 60krpm.
>
> i've drilled glass and ceramic tile and stone. you need to drill
> *slowly*. and spray repeatedly with water to keep cool and remove
> residue. i've used tungsten carbide bits (can get at home depot in a
> few sizes) and they do work but have a short lifetime. i got about 6
> - 10 holes per bit before wearing out. most of my drilling was in
> 1/4" glass and granite, so i don't know what thickness you intend.
> diamond bits are better, but still require water to last.

I heard that it helps to drill the glass underwater, if you can
arrange that. Never tried it though...

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "James Bishop" <bishopaj@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Foils


> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 2:54 PM, William Alford <walford@...> 
> wrote:
>> At 01:29 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>>>Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
>>>standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
>>>goes up to 60krpm.
>>
>> i've drilled glass and ceramic tile and stone. you need to drill
>> *slowly*. and spray repeatedly with water to keep cool and remove
>> residue. i've used tungsten carbide bits (can get at home depot in a
>> few sizes) and they do work but have a short lifetime. i got about 6
>> - 10 holes per bit before wearing out. most of my drilling was in
>> 1/4" glass and granite, so i don't know what thickness you intend.
>> diamond bits are better, but still require water to last.
>
> I heard that it helps to drill the glass underwater, if you can
> arrange that. Never tried it though...

I think you mean cutting glass with scissors underwater. I used to think 
that was an old wives tale, but I've heard of people doing it.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

> I think you mean cutting glass with scissors underwater. I used to think
> that was an old wives tale, but I've heard of people doing it.

I used to work with an optics guy, he told me that it helps. I guess
the water would absorb some of the vibrations, its probably the same
principle with scissors. It would also lubricate and cool it, and
might even save you from some nasty cuts if the glass breaks.

Yes, but apparently it isn't like cutting say a sheet of cardboard or plastic.
The glass kinda breaks in sections, is what i have read.
I never tried it myself, since the sensible method works reliably and
efficiently. Also, would you stick your hand in a bucket of water with
glass in it that may have been broken into sharp shards?

I always wanted to see if a carbide PCB drill will drill through glass
but never got around to trying it. If you do try, let us know.

One thing to keep in mind when using weird and wonderful PCB materials
might be that the thermal expansion coefficients may not match those
of components, causing reliability issues.

ST

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 12:52 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

> I think you mean cutting glass with scissors underwater. I used to think
> that was an old wives tale, but I've heard of people doing it.
>
> Leon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> 
> One thing to keep in mind when using weird and wonderful PCB materials
> might be that the thermal expansion coefficients may not match those
> of components, causing reliability issues.
> 
> ST

This is a really good point. I will have to dig a little more into
this point.

I am wondering about the drilling aspect. I think it is certainly a
challenge and I am tempted more and more to figure out a different
approach. 

I have started wondering what drill holes I actually need? With SMT
components I may well be able to get away without. It certainly seems
like any serious attempt at a double sided board would require many
holes and well this might be a very long process. It does not sound
impossible but it does sound like it might take a long time. So maybe
I design will be required to be single sided. 

So the only thing left might be mounting of the glass circuit board.
For this there is many different approaches based on the actual
project. I think I could probably get away without drilling.

I think I would like to drill in the future but maybe to start with I
will try a single sided board to see how it goes. 

Hopefully I will produce this over the next few weeks and put some
pictures up. 

Trev

OK the next problem is adhesion.
Will the copper foil ever stick to the glass properly, without coming
off during soldering?
The copper foil on normal PCBs is specially treated to achieve a rough
surface and best adhesion.

I guess you'll just have to try and see.

ST

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:40 PM, trevwhite74
<trevor.white100@...> wrote:

> I am wondering about the drilling aspect. I think it is certainly a
> challenge and I am tempted more and more to figure out a different
> approach.
>
> I have started wondering what drill holes I actually need? With SMT
> components I may well be able to get away without. It certainly seems
> like any serious attempt at a double sided board would require many
> holes and well this might be a very long process. It does not sound
> impossible but it does sound like it might take a long time. So maybe
> I design will be required to be single sided.
>
> So the only thing left might be mounting of the glass circuit board.
> For this there is many different approaches based on the actual
> project. I think I could probably get away without drilling.
>
> I think I would like to drill in the future but maybe to start with I
> will try a single sided board to see how it goes.
>
> Hopefully I will produce this over the next few weeks and put some
> pictures up.
>
> Trev
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> OK the next problem is adhesion.
> Will the copper foil ever stick to the glass properly, without coming
> off during soldering?
> The copper foil on normal PCBs is specially treated to achieve a rough
> surface and best adhesion.
> 
> I guess you'll just have to try and see.
> 
> ST
> 

Well I have ordered some laminates from laserpcb.com. I asked them if
they thought it would stick to glass. The support was fantastic. The
reply I got 

'I just tried it on a smooth drinking glass, and it stuck extremely well'

So that is initially something. But yes, I think the only way I am
going to find out it to try it. I wonder if over time the tracks might
lift up. I would prefer not to have to conformally coat the board
because I think this board is more just fun and art in a way. I see no
actual practical benefit to it. It just might look very cool. I mean,
i do not even have a project for it. I just really fancy trying it. So
to start with I shall do some fine tracks and maybe a couple of
surface mount components for proof of concept. 

The other though I have is along the lines of trying to plate the
glass as suggested earlier. It seems if they can do it with Silver
then why not. 

Trev

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:52:51 +0100, you wrote:

>OK the next problem is adhesion.
>Will the copper foil ever stick to the glass properly, without coming
>off during soldering?
>The copper foil on normal PCBs is specially treated to achieve a rough
>surface and best adhesion.
>
>I guess you'll just have to try and see.
>
>ST
>

You might get some inspiration by looking into how the contacts for
LCDs are handled.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "trevwhite74"
<trevor.white100@...> wrote:

> 
> Well I have ordered some laminates from laserpcb.com. I asked them if
> they thought it would stick to glass. The support was fantastic. The
> reply I got 
> 
> 'I just tried it on a smooth drinking glass, and it stuck extremely
well'
> 
> So that is initially something. But yes, I think the only way I am
> going to find out it to try it. I wonder if over time the tracks might
> lift up. I would prefer not to have to conformally coat the board
> because I think this board is more just fun and art in a way. I see no
> actual practical benefit to it. It just might look very cool. I mean,
> i do not even have a project for it. I just really fancy trying it. So
> to start with I shall do some fine tracks and maybe a couple of
> surface mount components for proof of concept. 
> 
> The other though I have is along the lines of trying to plate the
> glass as suggested earlier. It seems if they can do it with Silver
> then why not. 
> 
> Trev
>

There shouldn't be any problem with the tracks lifting, as long as you
don't get too hot with your soldering iron.  The copper is epoxied to
a sheet of kapton, which has a pressure adhesive on the other side
which will stick to the glass.  So the copper isn't stuck directly to
the glass.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "drpain1313" <yahoo@...> wrote:

> There shouldn't be any problem with the tracks lifting, as long as you
> don't get too hot with your soldering iron.  The copper is epoxied to
> a sheet of kapton, which has a pressure adhesive on the other side
> which will stick to the glass.  So the copper isn't stuck directly to
> the glass.
> 
> Dave
>

Oh, this might not be good. Does this mean that there is always going
to be the off colour kapton layer seen where copper is removed? That
was what the original picture showed wasnt it. Doh, that is not great
because I wanted just the bare tracks on the glass. I did not want the
layer of kapton. Hmm....

Trev

> > I think you mean cutting glass with scissors underwater. I used to think
> > that was an old wives tale, but I've heard of people doing it.
> 
> I used to work with an optics guy, he told me that it helps. I guess
> the water would absorb some of the vibrations, its probably the same
> principle with scissors. It would also lubricate and cool it, and
> might even save you from some nasty cuts if the glass breaks.


There's some sort of chemical reaction that happens when you score the
glass, it gets into the crack and widens it.  Can't remember at the moment,
and too lazy to Google it.

You sometimes see old-timers score then spit on the glass, running it down
the line.  Glass wants to break in all directions, this helps the break go
where it's suppose to go.

The scissors thing is an old trick, it does work for funny shaped stuff like
bottles, but you're still better off with the 'score & snap' method.

Tony

On Saturday 20 December 2008 20:40, David Griffith wrote:
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

<chuckle> good one

anyway 
I've seen copper foil sold as slug and snail tape (about 2" wide)
and 12"x12" sheets for guitar making check the bottom here
http://www.monteallums.com/shielding_supplies.html
looks like they've got some good size scraps dirt cheap

Brian
--
"Nemo me impune lacesset"

> >Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of
some?
> 
> you can get it at various handicraft stores like, Hobby Lobby, and
> such . sometimes in the leaded glass section. they also usually have
> in it in adhesive tape of various widths. intriguing notion, but
> can't see worth the effort except as personal cool self expression
> and enrichment. to drill glass, you must continually spray with water


Foil typically comes in 10 metre (33') rolls, with widths from about 4mm -
10mm.  The sizes are related to the thicknesses of glass, the copper is
stuck to the edge for the glass and folded over, like [.  Most glass is 3mm
thick.  

Note that the foil comes with different colour backing, that is the adhesive
side may not be copper.  You can get copper (i.e. plain), silver & black.
When doing stained glass the different colours provide different effects,
you can see this side thru the glass.

The adhesive will stand up to soldering for a short period, but it will lift
if overheated.  This is bare copper, so you'll need to clean & flux it
before soldering.  Normal rosin core solder will work fine (I'd still scrub
it first) but the flux can be hard to get off.  You're not likely to crack
the glass, 100 watt & over irons are normally used.  Don't use a torch, you
will crack it then.

I wouldn't use SMT components, I'd simply use normal thru-hole components
and push the leads down, for chips bend the leads out.  This solves the
problem of drilling.  If you want to drill, drill first them apply the tape.

Since chips pins are on a 2.54mm (1/10") pitch, the tape is too thick to use
as is.  The thinnest glass is 2mm (for picture frames), and tape to match is
about 4mm wide.  There is thinner stuff, but it's hard to find.   You'll
have to lay out the tracks to allow for the thick tape, and then trim the
ends to meet up with the chip, angling it in to line up properly.

Otherwise you can cut it to size yourself, much like how a vinyl cutter
(drag knife) works.  Set up the tape to run thru a roller guide, and
position a blade so it cuts the tape, but not the backing.  Of course,
easier said than done.  :)

Tony

Q: Why is bottom posting evil?

A: Because it makes people who have been following the thread reread the entirety of it just to get to the two-line ME TOO buried at the bottom.

Donald.
Who actually thinks in Reverse Polish, and for whom top posting is as natural as breathing.  If you prefer bottom-posting and bottom-reading, suit yourself, but don't try to make me reprogram my brain.  After 56.5 years, I don't think it will happen.  But I won't try to make you change either.  Now, David, let's get back on topic.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: David Griffith <dgriffi@...>
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, William Alford wrote:
> 
> > At 01:29 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
> >> Does anyone know if I would get away with drilling glass with a
> >> standard tungsten carbide drill bit set. The spindle speed of my mill
> >> goes up to 60krpm.
> >
> > i've drilled glass and ceramic tile and stone. you need to drill
> > *slowly*. and spray repeatedly with water to keep cool and remove
> > residue. i've used tungsten carbide bits (can get at home depot in a
> > few sizes) and they do work but have a short lifetime. i got about 6
> > - 10 holes per bit before wearing out. most of my drilling was in
> > 1/4" glass and granite, so i don't know what thickness you intend.
> > diamond bits are better, but still require water to last.
> 
> I have a book somewhere that describes making a drill bit by mounting a 
> copper or brass tube on a steel mandrel.  Cut two V-shaped notches in the 
> business end.  A clay dam is built up around where the hole will go. 
> Pour an abrasive slurry in there and carefully lower the drill.  Top up 
> with water/slurry as needed.
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dgriffi@...
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

This is an email list for most of us. If you reply to other emails, do
you reply on the bottom as well? Thought so.

This sticky copper tape for glass work, is it not way too thick for
PCB traces? i mean will it etch?

The glue-backing is a serious problem. Even if there is no kapton you
won't be left with a clear glass PCB. You'll be left with a sticky
mess PCB.
I see only two solutions: Wash away the glue somehow (possibly
impossible without removing traces as well), or use clear as glass
glue (might be hard to get a really flat surface).
Maybe some plain copper tape can be stuck on with 2-component epoxy.
There are some FR4 types that are very translucent already.

ST

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 6:09 AM,  <dhlocker@...> wrote:
> Q: Why is bottom posting evil?
>
> A: Because it makes people who have been following the thread reread the entirety of it just to get to the two-line ME TOO buried at the bottom.
>
> Donald.
> Who actually thinks in Reverse Polish, and for whom top posting is as natural as breathing.  If you prefer bottom-posting and bottom-reading, suit yourself, but don't try to make me reprogram my brain.  After 56.5 years, I don't think it will happen.  But I won't try to make you change either.  Now, David, let's get back on topic.
>

> This sticky copper tape for glass work, is it not way too thick for
> PCB traces? i mean will it etch?
> 

I have a feeling it might be too thick to give reliable etching. I
have ordered some copper sheets used for guitar pickup shielding just
to see what it is like. 

> The glue-backing is a serious problem. Even if there is no kapton you
> won't be left with a clear glass PCB. You'll be left with a sticky
> mess PCB.
> I see only two solutions: Wash away the glue somehow (possibly
> impossible without removing traces as well), or use clear as glass
> glue (might be hard to get a really flat surface).
> Maybe some plain copper tape can be stuck on with 2-component epoxy.
> There are some FR4 types that are very translucent already.
> 
> ST
> 

Well, I shall have to see. It is true that the glue might create a
mess. It might dry nice though or it might just wash away during etching. 

ST, do you have any links to translucent FR4?

Trev

The stuff i have from Bungard seems very transparent, but that is
surely ~10 years old so it may be different now.
Also the thin boards i have (0.5mm) turn out very transparent.

Mind you, not quite like clear glass, but you can clearly see the
traces on the other side.

ST

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 8:39 AM, trevwhite74
<trevor.white100@...> wrote:

> ST, do you have any links to translucent FR4?
>
> Trev
>

On 22 Dec 2008, at 05:09, dhlocker@... wrote:

> Q: Why is bottom posting evil?
>
> A: Because it makes people who have been following the thread reread  
> the entirety of it just to get to the two-line ME TOO buried at the  
> bottom.

Actually, the idea is that the responder takes the trouble to edit out  
all the stuff that he/she isn't commenting on. The thread itself can  
be read either in Yahoo! or in one's email program as required.

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@...> wrote:

> Actually, the idea is that the responder takes the trouble to edit out  
> all the stuff that he/she isn't commenting on. The thread itself can  
> be read either in Yahoo! or in one's email program as required.
> 

This is how I came to understand it too and why I started taking the
time to edit replies accordingly. Makes life a lot easier when
following a thread. 

Trev

Stained glass copper foil adhesive will not stand up to solder
temperatures on a flat surface. I tried using it to repair a pc board
edge connector - the adhesive failed before I could solder a 22 gauge
wire to it.On stained glass it is crimped around the edges of the
glass - which holds it in place while the adhesive re-solidifies.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@...> wrote:
>
> > >Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of
> some?
> > 
> > you can get it at various handicraft stores like, Hobby Lobby, and
> > such . sometimes in the leaded glass section. they also usually have
> > in it in adhesive tape of various widths. intriguing notion, but
> > can't see worth the effort except as personal cool self expression
> > and enrichment. to drill glass, you must continually spray with water
> 
> 
> Foil typically comes in 10 metre (33') rolls, with widths from about
4mm -
> 10mm.  The sizes are related to the thicknesses of glass, the copper is
> stuck to the edge for the glass and folded over, like [.  Most glass
is 3mm
> thick.  
> 
> Note that the foil comes with different colour backing, that is the
adhesive
> side may not be copper.  You can get copper (i.e. plain), silver &
black.
> When doing stained glass the different colours provide different
effects,
> you can see this side thru the glass.
> 
> The adhesive will stand up to soldering for a short period, but it
will lift
> if overheated.  This is bare copper, so you'll need to clean & flux it
> before soldering.  Normal rosin core solder will work fine (I'd
still scrub
> it first) but the flux can be hard to get off.  You're not likely to
crack
> the glass, 100 watt & over irons are normally used.  Don't use a
torch, you
> will crack it then.
> 
> I wouldn't use SMT components, I'd simply use normal thru-hole
components
> and push the leads down, for chips bend the leads out.  This solves the
> problem of drilling.  If you want to drill, drill first them apply
the tape.
> 
> Since chips pins are on a 2.54mm (1/10") pitch, the tape is too
thick to use
> as is.  The thinnest glass is 2mm (for picture frames), and tape to
match is
> about 4mm wide.  There is thinner stuff, but it's hard to find.   You'll
> have to lay out the tracks to allow for the thick tape, and then
trim the

> ends to meet up with the chip, angling it in to line up properly.
> 
> Otherwise you can cut it to size yourself, much like how a vinyl cutter
> (drag knife) works.  Set up the tape to run thru a roller guide, and
> position a blade so it cuts the tape, but not the backing.  Of course,
> easier said than done.  :)
> 
> Tony
>

Stained glass copper foil adhesive will not stand up to solder
temperatures on a flat surface. I tried using it to repair a pc board
edge connector - the adhesive failed before I could solder a 22 gauge
wire to it.On stained glass it is crimped around the edges of the
glass - which holds it in place while the adhesive re-solidifies.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@...> wrote:
>
> > >Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of
> some?
> > 
> > you can get it at various handicraft stores like, Hobby Lobby, and
> > such . sometimes in the leaded glass section. they also usually have
> > in it in adhesive tape of various widths. intriguing notion, but
> > can't see worth the effort except as personal cool self expression
> > and enrichment. to drill glass, you must continually spray with water
> 
> 
> Foil typically comes in 10 metre (33') rolls, with widths from about
4mm -
> 10mm.  The sizes are related to the thicknesses of glass, the copper is
> stuck to the edge for the glass and folded over, like [.  Most glass
is 3mm
> thick.  
> 
> Note that the foil comes with different colour backing, that is the
adhesive
> side may not be copper.  You can get copper (i.e. plain), silver &
black.
> When doing stained glass the different colours provide different
effects,
> you can see this side thru the glass.
> 
> The adhesive will stand up to soldering for a short period, but it
will lift
> if overheated.  This is bare copper, so you'll need to clean & flux it
> before soldering.  Normal rosin core solder will work fine (I'd
still scrub
> it first) but the flux can be hard to get off.  You're not likely to
crack
> the glass, 100 watt & over irons are normally used.  Don't use a
torch, you
> will crack it then.
> 
> I wouldn't use SMT components, I'd simply use normal thru-hole
components
> and push the leads down, for chips bend the leads out.  This solves the
> problem of drilling.  If you want to drill, drill first them apply
the tape.
> 
> Since chips pins are on a 2.54mm (1/10") pitch, the tape is too
thick to use
> as is.  The thinnest glass is 2mm (for picture frames), and tape to
match is
> about 4mm wide.  There is thinner stuff, but it's hard to find.   You'll
> have to lay out the tracks to allow for the thick tape, and then
trim the

> ends to meet up with the chip, angling it in to line up properly.
> 
> Otherwise you can cut it to size yourself, much like how a vinyl cutter
> (drag knife) works.  Set up the tape to run thru a roller guide, and
> position a blade so it cuts the tape, but not the backing.  Of course,
> easier said than done.  :)
> 
> Tony
>

2009/1/5 mfisch2001 <mfisch2001@...>:
> Stained glass copper foil adhesive will not stand up to solder

what about glazing silicone adhesve, cylinder head gasket silicone adhesive

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> 2009/1/5 mfisch2001 <mfisch2001@...>:
> > Stained glass copper foil adhesive will not stand up to solder
> 
> what about glazing silicone adhesve, cylinder head gasket silicone
adhesive
>

Well I have some copper laminate from LaserPCB. I does adhere to the
glass but not sure how long it would last. I am wondering if maybe a
lacquer is required to help the tracks stay down once a board is made.
Not sure if this will look very nice but it might look okay.

The stained glass people will generally disagree with you.  You can solder
to it on a flat surface, but perhaps not when trying to fix a edge connector
- too small.

To create some patterns the foil is applied to the glass then soldered.  Hot
& fast is the key - some people use 500 watt irons.  Flux the foil, run the
iron along it, and apply the solder to the back of the iron tip.  Not
something you see often, that's a fairly advanced technique.  If you're
lifting the foil, you're taking too long.  Turn up the heat.

The adhesive on the foil isn't actually needed, it's more of a convenience.
The solder provides the strength in a stained glass panel.  The (very) old
timers used beeswax to hold the foil in place prior to soldering.

Still won't fix your edge connector though.

Tony


> Stained glass copper foil adhesive will not stand up to solder
> temperatures on a flat surface. I tried using it to repair a pc board
> edge connector - the adhesive failed before I could solder a 22 gauge
> wire to it.On stained glass it is crimped around the edges of the
> glass - which holds it in place while the adhesive re-solidifies.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@...> wrote:
>
> > >Anyone worked with copper foils? Got any sources for getting hold of
> some?
> > 
> > you can get it at various handicraft stores like, Hobby Lobby, and
> > such . sometimes in the leaded glass section. they also usually have
> > in it in adhesive tape of various widths. intriguing notion, but
> > can't see worth the effort except as personal cool self expression
> > and enrichment. to drill glass, you must continually spray with water
> 
> 
> Foil typically comes in 10 metre (33') rolls, with widths from about
4mm -
> 10mm.  The sizes are related to the thicknesses of glass, the copper is
> stuck to the edge for the glass and folded over, like [.  Most glass
is 3mm
> thick.  
> 
> Note that the foil comes with different colour backing, that is the
adhesive
> side may not be copper.  You can get copper (i.e. plain), silver &
black.
> When doing stained glass the different colours provide different
effects,
> you can see this side thru the glass.
> 
> The adhesive will stand up to soldering for a short period, but it
will lift
> if overheated.  This is bare copper, so you'll need to clean & flux it
> before soldering.  Normal rosin core solder will work fine (I'd
still scrub
> it first) but the flux can be hard to get off.  You're not likely to
crack
> the glass, 100 watt & over irons are normally used.  Don't use a
torch, you
> will crack it then.
> 
> I wouldn't use SMT components, I'd simply use normal thru-hole
components
> and push the leads down, for chips bend the leads out.  This solves the
> problem of drilling.  If you want to drill, drill first them apply
the tape.
> 
> Since chips pins are on a 2.54mm (1/10") pitch, the tape is too
thick to use
> as is.  The thinnest glass is 2mm (for picture frames), and tape to
match is
> about 4mm wide.  There is thinner stuff, but it's hard to find.   You'll
> have to lay out the tracks to allow for the thick tape, and then
trim the

> ends to meet up with the chip, angling it in to line up properly.
> 
> Otherwise you can cut it to size yourself, much like how a vinyl cutter
> (drag knife) works.  Set up the tape to run thru a roller guide, and
> position a blade so it cuts the tape, but not the backing.  Of course,
> easier said than done.  :)
> 
> Tony
>