Homebrew PCBs

I am in the process of making a cnc pcb engraver and it seems like 
the hard part is the designing.  I was thinking of offering a kit or 
the whole thing for sale or auction.  What I am building will also 
be capable of machining wood and plastic up to like an inch thick
(hopefully).  This would allow you to make custom stamps from bitmap 
images (great christmas gifts for women and kids).  I would not sell 
software with it, as I have found several free programs for doing 
what I would like to do.  I might include a cd with the free 
software on it but would need permission from the programmers 
first.  The engraver would be capable of working with like 14" by 
14".  This may be premature, as I am still in the design stage, 
But... My question is, what would be a reasonable price to pay for 
such a thing?  If it is not worth doing I don't want to make it 
easilly reproduced.  What do you think?  Would it be worth doing?  
Thanks for any input!

Ben Englund

no. (no it's not worth doing)

i think no because i think the whole pcb engraving stuff is not good at 
all.
boards too uneven, too complicated etc.
if you want it easy and fast get a wet solution.

(and i can just imagine how much your wife will love homemade stamps ;-), 
but the kids would for sure...)

there is much money payd for this machines, but i thing in case of pcb 
making they are only interesting for drilling.


there may be some guys out there which have different opinions.


but i would like to have such a tool too for other things than pcb.

i would not try to make this a machine for selling, there are lots of this 
machines out which are designed well.
which have a long developing process behind them, which are good now.
i think it would not be easy to meet this quality requirements with low 
price.


it will change nothing if you make your machine easy copyable.
there are lots of plans out there of "easy produceable" machines (more or 
less) so why should one try to copy yours.


if you still want to do this first get one for yourself. get it good and 
low priced.
then think about selling it.
i don't think this is a thing with which you will earn money, maybe you 
will spend a lot if you make one for you.


but that's only my opinion, and normally nobody cares about it.

sorry if i am a bit unfriendly, but i don't like the "I don't want to make 
it easilly reproduced.".


but it would be nice to read your machine is completed and working fine 
(and seeing some examples made with it).

why do you design your own? there are dozens out there.....


kind regards
stefan


if anyone is interested in:
i got the proxxon table saw with 1 carbide blade and 2 other for 50eur at 
ebay today.
no need for making my own.
look forward to test its fr4 cutting capability.
but has 12V motor, may need replacing by serious 220v motor... i will see..
i'm just into getting in this "rc plane building and flying" stuff now.
i wanted to do this forever but never started. now it's time to.
the proxxon minidrill and saw will come in handy for sure!
anyone else rc planes makin' ? if yes please start other thread and tell me 
(wan't hijack this).

>I am in the process of making a cnc pcb engraver and it seems like 
>the hard part is the designing.  I was thinking of offering a kit or 
>the whole thing for sale or auction.  What I am building will also 
>be capable of machining wood and plastic up to like an inch thick
>(hopefully).  This would allow you to make custom stamps from bitmap 
>images (great christmas gifts for women and kids).  I would not sell 
>software with it, as I have found several free programs for doing 
>what I would like to do.  I might include a cd with the free 
>software on it but would need permission from the programmers 
>first.  The engraver would be capable of working with like 14" by 
>14".  This may be premature, as I am still in the design stage, 
>But... My question is, what would be a reasonable price to pay for 
>such a thing?  If it is not worth doing I don't want to make it 
>easilly reproduced.  What do you think?  Would it be worth doing?  
>Thanks for any input!
>
>Ben Englund      

Hi Ben

There are many such machines already available in the market as Stefan
pointed out. Search google for "CNC milling machine" or in german "CNC
fr*" and you will get an impressive list of options. Many of them are
made by people which had the same intention as you. Create a good
machine for a low price. Interestingly, if you want a machine that is
precise enough to drill PCB's (even more for PCB milling) and which
you can use to engrave front pannels etc. they soon find themselves
offering machines which are all about at the same price range!

I also agree with Stefan that for creating PCB's the wet way is
better, but I know that there are people who think different about
this.

Anyways, a CNC milling maching comes in handy if you need to drill the
holes in the PCB and for engraving all kind of other stuff, but
milling PCB's results in some serious limitations and is not even
really faster in the end. I'm in the market myself for such a machine
(to drill holes) and I also consider building one of my own for the
fun of it. I haven't made up my mind on this yet. There are MANY sites
descibing how to build one and also many sites which offer such
machines either finished or as a kit. A machine of the size you
describe usually goes for ~$2500 if it's worth buying it and if you
build one yourself you can save about half the price at the cost of
one to two man months of work provided you have only a few minor
errors in your design. There ARE machines out there which are cheaper,
but these are also those machines you find most complaints from their
disapointed users in all kind of forums related to the topic. If you
start to develop a machine from scratch, you soon will find out that
you must rebuild some parts of it cause the first idea did not worked
good enough etc. I actually experienced a simmilar thing with my
through hole plating machine. That said those which will build one
based on my machine will save a significant amont of money and time
just because they can avoid errors that otherwise definately WILL
creep into your design. Such errors tend to be expensive with regard
to time and money :-). Of course, if you are alredy very experineced
with this kind of work things are different, but I figure if you were
you most likely would not have posted this question. :-)

The task can be broken down into three major steps. The mechanics with
the stepper motors et all, the controller electronics needed and the
software. The last part can be left out cause there are good comercial
and also free packages around - I agree here with you. Controller
electronics can be bought also, but I figure most people reading this
e-mail list would be in the position to create one on their own if the
need would arrise. This is also the area where I think it's easy to
save some bucks.

All in all, unless you intend to do this as your hobby - or then have
the marketing power to put some $200k into building up a company that
market and sell such machines worldwide I would not consider going
this route. That's however only my 2¢ of course.

Markus

I did not mean I did not want people copying it:)  I just don't need 
to make it easilly reproduceable if I'M not going to reproduce it.  
I am all for people building more and freedom of information.  I'm 
actually saddened that I came off otherwise:(  Thanks for your reply

Also, How much does such a machine run, I'm not talking about the 
super high tech expensive stuff I've seen.  Just able to do the job 
reliably.

Thanks

Ben Englund

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 21:15:36 -0000, you wrote:

>I did not mean I did not want people copying it:)  I just don't need 
>to make it easilly reproduceable if I'M not going to reproduce it.  
>I am all for people building more and freedom of information.  I'm 
>actually saddened that I came off otherwise:(  Thanks for your reply
>
>Also, How much does such a machine run, I'm not talking about the 
>super high tech expensive stuff I've seen.  Just able to do the job 
>reliably.

The 14" x14" class - as mentioned - goes for betwen $2k and $2500 for
SIMPLE, but reliably working machines. That's really not super high
tech stuff. Well, a CNC milling machine IS however by definition at
least "higher tech" :-) in it's nature... The price of course also
greatly depends on what one understands that such a machine constists
off (i.e. are controllers included, is software included, is there a
motor for the spindle or not etc. etc. so it's hard to say a general
price without defining what shall be included or not.

The cheaper ones are usually not precise enough and often also
cluttered with issues regarding controllers & software.

Basically I strongly recommend you to use google and browse an evening
or two and I'm sure you get a fairly good overview about this market.

Markus

I have done some searching and it seems like all I have seen are too 
high priced.  I know I would never even pay $1k for this, let alone 
$2.5k I have been thinking about this for a while and I think it can 
be done much cheaper while keeping it accurate and reliable.  I just 
wanted to get some opinions on how much effort I should put into 
designing such an animal.  First I would include stepper motors
(possibly used), power supply, and controllers(x,y, and z axis) to 
hook to a pc parallel port.  I would only include "free" software or 
maybe shareware.  It would have a maximum accuracy of 2000 steps per 
inch.  Runout on the slides would be .001" or less and would use acme 
screws for the drive.  Spindle motor would either be included or just 
accept a "dremel" type of tool.  


I personally feel that much of America has become overpriced due to 
too many office personel and salesmen.  I would like to be part of 
the solution instead of the problem.  This is just one of my many 
ongoing projects(most of them in my head) to try and make this world 
more bearable.  

Sorry, I'm just babling on....

Ben Englund

Ben,
You can make a machine like what you are describing very inexpensively. I
made a CNC 3 axis machine for drilling my PCBs in 1997. You can make a
fairly accurate machine with 3 stepper motors, a controller board, drawer
slides, some type of drill like a dremel or similar and software that uses
the parallel port. I wrote my own software in Visual Basic as the generic
shareware programs took too long to set up for what I wanted to do. The
stepper shafts are just connected to threaded stock. A nut attached to the
table moves back and forth via the threaded stock spinning clockwise or
counterclockwise via the number of steps your computer commands. You can get
the stepper motors from several places online. I have dealt with Dan Mauch
of Camtronics on previous projects. You can get the motors and controller at
his site http://www.seanet.com/~dmauch/     He has also built the device
that you are describing and reports good results.
You can get information on the parallel port from
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/par/ but beware this link is sometimes down.
A book that will become your bible on this project is "Controlling the World
With Your PC" by Paul Bergsman. ISBN# 1-878707-15-9. I think the list price
of the book is $29.95. This book gives you all the descriptive information,
schematics, and sample code in Basic, Pascal and C.
BTW- I am not affiliated with any of the references I gave here. These are
just the sources that helped me the most when I did my project.
Good luck.
-Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: "ben_englund" <ben_englund@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 6:44 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: cnc pcb engraver


> I have done some searching and it seems like all I have seen are too
> high priced.  I know I would never even pay $1k for this, let alone
> $2.5k I have been thinking about this for a while and I think it can
> be done much cheaper while keeping it accurate and reliable.  I just
> wanted to get some opinions on how much effort I should put into
> designing such an animal.  First I would include stepper motors
> (possibly used), power supply, and controllers(x,y, and z axis) to
> hook to a pc parallel port.  I would only include "free" software or
> maybe shareware.  It would have a maximum accuracy of 2000 steps per
> inch.  Runout on the slides would be .001" or less and would use acme
> screws for the drive.  Spindle motor would either be included or just
> accept a "dremel" type of tool.
>
>
> I personally feel that much of America has become overpriced due to
> too many office personel and salesmen.  I would like to be part of
> the solution instead of the problem.  This is just one of my many
> ongoing projects(most of them in my head) to try and make this world
> more bearable.
>
> Sorry, I'm just babling on....
>
> Ben Englund
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Ben!  See my CNC PCB-drill I am JUST-now trying to upload into PHOTOS!  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> Ben!  See my CNC PCB-drill I am JUST-now trying to upload into PHOTOS!  

You mean this one in the Files section, that you keep forgetting is
there? ;')

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QGT-PgaYM4rvWAqAEEswfHIccCyVBwt_p-9pyjkLn5saGZ32fA2DFzI-eJuJ7yVJXdv4B1I5ydvLJiTR/Homemade%20PCB%20equipment/Dscn0329.jpg

Or go to http://tinyurl.com/fjg2

Steve Greenfield

In a message dated 6/28/2003 11:54:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
alienrelics@... writes:

> You mean this one in the Files section, that you keep forgetting is
> there? ;')
> 

YES!  SORRY!  DUH . . .   Ah kain't he'p it!  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ben_englund" 
<ben_englund@t...> wrote:
> I am in the process of making a cnc pcb engraver and it seems like 
> the hard part is the designing.   > 
 
Ben:  I have a time with PHOTOS on these home-brew sites!  This one 
doesn't like photos in the PHOTOS section, rather have them in the 
FILES section.  I won't go into the thinking, there.

Look in the FILES section for "Homebrew Equipment...", and click on 
that.  Then look for a file named DSCN0329, and click on that.  That 
will give you the photo of my PET-controlled PCB-drill/engraver.  The 
basic chassis is Baltic birch ply, precision cabinet-work.  The white 
surface is Formica.  The quill is a 92W (aircraft instrument) 400 Hz. 
3-phase motor in a "servo casing", and I designed a 400 Hz. generator 
circuit to power that.  Turns "synchronized" 12,000 RPM.  So, will 
punch up to 0.1" dia. carbide bits merrily into one layer of FR-4 at 
a rate of about 1 hole per second, when within, say, 0.1" spacing.  A 
bit longer per-hole when 1" or more apart, of course!  It was an 
excellent learning experience, and still works, but PET is dying, so 
I will have to convert to PC use, soon!  (will use old laptop for 
that!)

Hi, I thought I would trhrow in my 2 cents worth in the hope it may 
save someone years of grief!!   I regularly engrave and drill my own 
boards using a modified techno eisel machine.  I ripped out the old 
electronics and replaced the drivers with gecko micro steppers and 
use the deskcnc serial board and software. The thing is amazing!! 
however...... it was not always so. Over the last 8 years I tried on 
many occasions to utilize various options presented at the time. The 
biggest things I found was 1. it takes forever, 2. get the right 
bits, 3. a dremel works fine (35,000 rpm is good enough). 4. make it 
as smooth as possible (hence the geckos)  5. Use a "foot" so that the 
bit cannot dig in and you can limit the depth.

I bought the dremel router foot and use that, it has an easy 
adjustment and works great.  The bits I get from north Bay Technical 
(http://www.northbaytechnical.com ) Very helpful and friendly.

Here is a link ytp a guy who has spent a lot of tome trying to build 
his own with what looks like pretty good results. However I can tell 
you he has acess to a Haas CNC and still it has taken him a fair 
amount of time.....  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2541076838

Hope some of it helps.

David

>I have done some searching and it seems like all I have seen are too 
>high priced.  I know I would never even pay $1k for this, let alone 
>$2.5k I have been thinking about this for a while and I think it can 
>be done much cheaper while keeping it accurate and reliable.  I just 
>wanted to get some opinions on how much effort I should put into 
>designing such an animal.  First I would include stepper motors
>(possibly used), power supply, and controllers(x,y, and z axis) to 
>hook to a pc parallel port.  I would only include "free" software or 
>maybe shareware.  It would have a maximum accuracy of 2000 steps per 
>inch.  Runout on the slides would be .001" or less and would use acme 
>screws for the drive.  Spindle motor would either be included or just 
>accept a "dremel" type of tool.  
>
>
>I personally feel that much of America has become overpriced due to 
>too many office personel and salesmen.  I would like to be part of 
>the solution instead of the problem.  This is just one of my many 
>ongoing projects(most of them in my head) to try and make this world 
>more bearable.  
>
>Sorry, I'm just babling on....
>
>Ben Englund    

Ben,

Don't get this wrong. First, I would love to buy a good machine for <
$1k :-) so if you manage to create such a beast drop me a line. 

I'm just trying to point out that you should not underestimate this
project and that so far the useable offers (here in europe!) start at
about $2k.

So, good luck for your project and keep us up to date with your
progress.

Markus

>Here is a link ytp a guy who has spent a lot of tome trying to build 
>his own with what looks like pretty good results. However I can tell 
>you he has acess to a Haas CNC and still it has taken him a fair 
>amount of time.....  
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2541076838
>
>Hope some of it helps.

Too bad the auction is closed! This would have been a nobrainer for
me...

Markus

Hi Gang,
        I have a set of plans for a PCBMill. It is called the Brute. 
It's the machine I used to mill my Piker controller boards that I 
sold. Now I have the boards etched by a company in Texas. Milling is 
great for fast prototypes. I also suggested Scratch and Etch awhile 
back. You can build just the machine for under $125 US. Motors and 
controller are extra. Several people build my machine and sold it on 
Ebay. They got $300 for it.
         

                                                 John  









--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> >Here is a link ytp a guy who has spent a lot of tome trying to 
build 
> >his own with what looks like pretty good results. However I can 
tell 

> >you he has acess to a Haas CNC and still it has taken him a fair 
> >amount of time.....  
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2541076838
> >
> >Hope some of it helps.
> 
> Too bad the auction is closed! This would have been a nobrainer for
> me...
> 
> Markus

>Hi Gang,
>        I have a set of plans for a PCBMill. It is called the Brute. 
>It's the machine I used to mill my Piker controller boards that I 
>sold. Now I have the boards etched by a company in Texas. Milling is 
>great for fast prototypes. I also suggested Scratch and Etch awhile 
>back. You can build just the machine for under $125 US. Motors and 
>controller are extra. Several people build my machine and sold it on 
>Ebay. They got $300 for it.
>         
>
>                                                 John  

John

I "reconstructed" the URL to what I figured might be your homepage out
of your e-mail adress :)) Nice pages!. I actually browsed around there
a while :) Like your story about becoming a writer. 

What I acutally don't understand is why you refuse to ship outside US
and Canada - and well, this is bad for me cause I live in Switzerland.
I really don't see why there should be a difference if you get postage
and plans payed.

Once more I feel like a second class member of this world...

Markus

Markus,
       The aluminum window channel used in my machines is only 
available in the US and Canada. We can buy it here as scrap. If you 
have a PCBoard milling question just ask.


       Nothing beats the copier/etching method! I have tried all the 
methods to date except the URBAN LEGEND Inkjet/floor polish method.


                                           John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> >Hi Gang,
> >        I have a set of plans for a PCBMill. It is called the 
Brute. 
> >It's the machine I used to mill my Piker controller boards that I 
> >sold. Now I have the boards etched by a company in Texas. Milling 
is 
> >great for fast prototypes. I also suggested Scratch and Etch 
awhile 
> >back. You can build just the machine for under $125 US. Motors and 
> >controller are extra. Several people build my machine and sold it 
on 
> >Ebay. They got $300 for it.
> >         
> >
> >                                                 John  
> 
> John
> 
> I "reconstructed" the URL to what I figured might be your homepage 
out
> of your e-mail adress :)) Nice pages!. I actually browsed around 
there
> a while :) Like your story about becoming a writer. 
> 
> What I acutally don't understand is why you refuse to ship outside 
US
> and Canada - and well, this is bad for me cause I live in 
Switzerland.
> I really don't see why there should be a difference if you get 
postage

> and plans payed.
> 
> Once more I feel like a second class member of this world...
> 
> Markus

>Markus,
>       The aluminum window channel used in my machines is only 
>available in the US and Canada. We can buy it here as scrap. If you 
>have a PCBoard milling question just ask.
>
>
>       Nothing beats the copier/etching method! I have tried all the 
>methods to date except the URBAN LEGEND Inkjet/floor polish method.
>
>
>                                           John

John

I apreciate your reply. I'm close to 100% sure I could organize a
replacement for that channel here - IMHO really no reason not to ship
plans if your customer knows that getting parts needs to improvise. I
mean I really do expect to have problems with getting the SAME parts
as you use in your constructions here just because of the
inches/metrics difference between the place you and I live, so
expecting a fool prove plan for the conditions as they are here for me
would be foolish. BUT, just get ideas and the experience that is
inside your plans IS worth the price of the plans.

Btw, I don't want to build a milling machine to do PCB milling, but I
need an acurate (and faster) way to drill the holes into the PCB and
that's where a CNC milling machine comes in handy. Besides, I also
would apreciate having a simple CNC milling machine for other ocasions
(not PCB related).

Ok, I do have a question :-) What I did not see / read on your pages
is what kind of sliders you use. I.e. if you use regular threaded
stocks and nuts or if you use more precise stuff and of course if it's
really possilbe by using regular threaded stocks / nuts only to reach
the precision you claim for the "brute".

Bottom line is I'm still interested in getting your plans (for the
burte), cause I'm more than convinced that they contain enough detail
information saving me hours of hassle hence justifying the price. Wire
transfering shipping charges along with the price of the plans to any
bank acount of yours you name (in a privat e-mail to me of course)
would just take some mouse clicks. (That's something we're really good
at here in Switzerland. We don't use checks of any nature anymore for
at least more than 20 years now  :))) )

Markus

Markus,
       The aluminum channel is shaped in such a way it becomes the
base and the linear slides. Regular threaded rod 1/4-20 is used for 
many reasons covered in my info section. Please keep your questions 
to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.

                                              John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> >Markus,
> >       The aluminum window channel used in my machines is only 
> >available in the US and Canada. We can buy it here as scrap. If 
you 
> >have a PCBoard milling question just ask.
> >
> >
> >       Nothing beats the copier/etching method! I have tried all 
the 
> >methods to date except the URBAN LEGEND Inkjet/floor polish method.
> >
> >
> >                                           John
> 
> John
> 
> I apreciate your reply. I'm close to 100% sure I could organize a
> replacement for that channel here - IMHO really no reason not to 
ship
> plans if your customer knows that getting parts needs to improvise. 
I
> mean I really do expect to have problems with getting the SAME parts
> as you use in your constructions here just because of the
> inches/metrics difference between the place you and I live, so
> expecting a fool prove plan for the conditions as they are here for 
me
> would be foolish. BUT, just get ideas and the experience that is
> inside your plans IS worth the price of the plans.
> 
> Btw, I don't want to build a milling machine to do PCB milling, but 
I
> need an acurate (and faster) way to drill the holes into the PCB and
> that's where a CNC milling machine comes in handy. Besides, I also
> would apreciate having a simple CNC milling machine for other 
ocasions
> (not PCB related).
> 
> Ok, I do have a question :-) What I did not see / read on your pages
> is what kind of sliders you use. I.e. if you use regular threaded
> stocks and nuts or if you use more precise stuff and of course if 
it's
> really possilbe by using regular threaded stocks / nuts only to 
reach
> the precision you claim for the "brute".
> 
> Bottom line is I'm still interested in getting your plans (for the
> burte), cause I'm more than convinced that they contain enough 
detail
> information saving me hours of hassle hence justifying the price. 
Wire
> transfering shipping charges along with the price of the plans to 
any
> bank acount of yours you name (in a privat e-mail to me of course)
> would just take some mouse clicks. (That's something we're really 
good
> at here in Switzerland. We don't use checks of any nature anymore 
for

> at least more than 20 years now  :))) )
> 
> Markus

> Ok, I do have a question :-) What I did not see / read on your pages
> is what kind of sliders you use. I.e. if you use regular threaded
> stocks and nuts or if you use more precise stuff and of course if it's
> really possilbe by using regular threaded stocks / nuts only to reach
> the precision you claim for the "brute".
>
Just wanted to add my 2 cents--- I had a machine with the precision stocks
and accompanying nuts and later made one with standard threaded stock. I did
not see any difference in my PCBs from one machine to the other. I think
there are probably a wide range of accuracies, though, in what you buy and
where. I would inspect the threaded stock with a nut and see if there is any
noticable side to side play first.
-Mike

Please keep your questions
> to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.
>
>                                               John
>

I don't think that question was off topic. He is going to build this machine
to drill PC Boards.
-Mike

many designs spring-load a second nut to remove all play when using metric 
threaded rods.
i think this works fine.

regards
stefan

My reasons for wanting to use acme thread rod is that the nut binds 
less on it under load  and so it should last longer ....could be 
wrong.....thought i'd do it that way cause getting acme thread rod 
through Enco is pretty cheap.  I am also thinking of using two nuts 
loaded by a spring as was mentioned.  Thanks for all the replys!  


Ben Englund

Ben,
    Make sure you can find the tap before you buy the threaded rod.

                                  John 




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ben_englund" 
<ben_englund@t...> wrote:

> My reasons for wanting to use acme thread rod is that the nut binds 
> less on it under load  and so it should last longer ....could be 
> wrong.....thought i'd do it that way cause getting acme thread rod 
> through Enco is pretty cheap.  I am also thinking of using two nuts 
> loaded by a spring as was mentioned.  Thanks for all the replys!  
> 
> 
> Ben Englund

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
>     Make sure you can find the tap before you buy the threaded rod.
> 
>                                   John 

Enco also sells the nuts to go with them, otherwise a guy could cast 
one from brass or something.

Mike,
     I ment the ones about payments. He tracked down my website. I
did not mention it. If you go back through the messages you will see 
I talked about milling circuit boards here before. 

                      John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Putnam" <circuit@g...> 
wrote:
>  Please keep your questions
> > to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.
> >
> >                                               John
> >
> 
> I don't think that question was off topic. He is going to build 
this machine
> to drill PC Boards.
> -Mike

> Mike,
>      I ment the ones about payments. He tracked down my website. I
> did not mention it. If you go back through the messages you will see
> I talked about milling circuit boards here before.
>

Didn't offend me. Seemed more on topic than some of the other things I have
seen exhausted on this site for two weeks at a time.
One question, though... What software do you use for your CNC projects? It
has been my experience that this is the hardest part to putting a CNC drill
together. Most CAD programs output Excellon files. Are you using generic
shareware like DanCad and similar or have you written a custom program?
-Mike

Mike,
     I do the outlines in TurboCAD. I put a dot in each pad. During
milling the bit leaves a starter hole.I then use a Dremel Drill press 
to finish the holes. You could also put your hole locations in a new 
layer. Use the new layer that contains the hole locations and use G80 
to G83 drill commands to do your holes. Excellon is a type of CNC 
file so is a GCode. Both can produce the same results.

                                       John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Putnam" <circuit@g...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Mike,
> >      I ment the ones about payments. He tracked down my website. I
> > did not mention it. If you go back through the messages you will 
see
> > I talked about milling circuit boards here before.
> >
> 
> Didn't offend me. Seemed more on topic than some of the other 
things I have
> seen exhausted on this site for two weeks at a time.
> One question, though... What software do you use for your CNC 
projects? It
> has been my experience that this is the hardest part to putting a 
CNC drill
> together. Most CAD programs output Excellon files. Are you using 
generic
> shareware like DanCad and similar or have you written a custom 
program?
> -Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Putnam" <circuit@g...> wrote:
>  Please keep your questions
> > to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.
> >
> >                                               John

> I don't think that question was off topic. He is going to build this
machine
> to drill PC Boards.
> -Mike

Besides, -I'm- the moderator. ;')

Steve Greenfield

I misunderstood your comment, too. I understand what you are saying
now, and yes your discussions about payment methods should go off list.

However most of his post was on topic, so I wasn't going to say anything.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:

> Mike,
>      I ment the ones about payments. He tracked down my website. I
> did not mention it. If you go back through the messages you will see 
> I talked about milling circuit boards here before. 
> 
>                       John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Putnam" <circuit@g...> 
> wrote:
> >  Please keep your questions
> > > to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.
> > >
> > >                                               John
> > >
> > 
> > I don't think that question was off topic. He is going to build 
> this machine
> > to drill PC Boards.
> > -Mike

I understand that John chooses not to sell his plans outside of USA
and Canada. He is within his rights. This is apparently what he was
refering to as off topic.

As moderator, I consider it On Topic to bring up price and
availability of On Topic items such as supplies, machinery, etc
related to PCBs. When you get to the point of discussing credit card
numbers and mailing addresses, that is the time to take it off list.

But certainly many of us are interested in how much and payment methods.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:

> Markus,
>        The aluminum channel is shaped in such a way it becomes the
> base and the linear slides. Regular threaded rod 1/4-20 is used for 
> many reasons covered in my info section. Please keep your questions 
> to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.
> 
>                                               John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
> wrote:
> > >Markus,
> > >       The aluminum window channel used in my machines is only 
> > >available in the US and Canada. We can buy it here as scrap. If 
> you 
> > >have a PCBoard milling question just ask.
> > >
> > >
> > >       Nothing beats the copier/etching method! I have tried all 
> the 
> > >methods to date except the URBAN LEGEND Inkjet/floor polish method.
> > >
> > >
> > >                                           John
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > I apreciate your reply. I'm close to 100% sure I could organize a
> > replacement for that channel here - IMHO really no reason not to 
> ship
> > plans if your customer knows that getting parts needs to improvise. 
> I
> > mean I really do expect to have problems with getting the SAME parts
> > as you use in your constructions here just because of the
> > inches/metrics difference between the place you and I live, so
> > expecting a fool prove plan for the conditions as they are here for 
> me
> > would be foolish. BUT, just get ideas and the experience that is
> > inside your plans IS worth the price of the plans.
> > 
> > Btw, I don't want to build a milling machine to do PCB milling, but 
> I
> > need an acurate (and faster) way to drill the holes into the PCB and
> > that's where a CNC milling machine comes in handy. Besides, I also
> > would apreciate having a simple CNC milling machine for other 
> ocasions
> > (not PCB related).
> > 
> > Ok, I do have a question :-) What I did not see / read on your pages
> > is what kind of sliders you use. I.e. if you use regular threaded
> > stocks and nuts or if you use more precise stuff and of course if 
> it's
> > really possilbe by using regular threaded stocks / nuts only to 
> reach
> > the precision you claim for the "brute".
> > 
> > Bottom line is I'm still interested in getting your plans (for the
> > burte), cause I'm more than convinced that they contain enough 
> detail
> > information saving me hours of hassle hence justifying the price. 
> Wire
> > transfering shipping charges along with the price of the plans to 
> any
> > bank acount of yours you name (in a privat e-mail to me of course)
> > would just take some mouse clicks. (That's something we're really 
> good
> > at here in Switzerland. We don't use checks of any nature anymore 
> for
> > at least more than 20 years now  :))) )
> > 
> > Markus

Steve,
      I went back and looked at my first message. It looks more like 
an ad than what I was trying to say. What I wanted to say is selling 
a built machine is very hard. Even if you charged $500 each the 
profit would be small. Several people made one of my machines and 
sold it on Ebay. They made $25 profit not counting their time! 


                                           John








--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> I understand that John chooses not to sell his plans outside of USA
> and Canada. He is within his rights. This is apparently what he was
> refering to as off topic.
> 
> As moderator, I consider it On Topic to bring up price and
> availability of On Topic items such as supplies, machinery, etc
> related to PCBs. When you get to the point of discussing credit card
> numbers and mailing addresses, that is the time to take it off list.
> 
> But certainly many of us are interested in how much and payment 
methods.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> 
wrote:
> > Markus,
> >        The aluminum channel is shaped in such a way it becomes the
> > base and the linear slides. Regular threaded rod 1/4-20 is used 
for 
> > many reasons covered in my info section. Please keep your 
questions 
> > to milling circuit boards. Other questions are off topic.
> > 
> >                                               John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
> > wrote:
> > > >Markus,
> > > >       The aluminum window channel used in my machines is only 
> > > >available in the US and Canada. We can buy it here as scrap. 
If 
> > you 
> > > >have a PCBoard milling question just ask.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Nothing beats the copier/etching method! I have tried 
all 
> > the 
> > > >methods to date except the URBAN LEGEND Inkjet/floor polish 
method.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                                           John
> > > 
> > > John
> > > 
> > > I apreciate your reply. I'm close to 100% sure I could organize 
a
> > > replacement for that channel here - IMHO really no reason not 
to 
> > ship
> > > plans if your customer knows that getting parts needs to 
improvise. 
> > I
> > > mean I really do expect to have problems with getting the SAME 
parts
> > > as you use in your constructions here just because of the
> > > inches/metrics difference between the place you and I live, so
> > > expecting a fool prove plan for the conditions as they are here 
for 
> > me
> > > would be foolish. BUT, just get ideas and the experience that is
> > > inside your plans IS worth the price of the plans.
> > > 
> > > Btw, I don't want to build a milling machine to do PCB milling, 
but 
> > I
> > > need an acurate (and faster) way to drill the holes into the 
PCB and
> > > that's where a CNC milling machine comes in handy. Besides, I 
also
> > > would apreciate having a simple CNC milling machine for other 
> > ocasions
> > > (not PCB related).
> > > 
> > > Ok, I do have a question :-) What I did not see / read on your 
pages
> > > is what kind of sliders you use. I.e. if you use regular 
threaded
> > > stocks and nuts or if you use more precise stuff and of course 
if 
> > it's
> > > really possilbe by using regular threaded stocks / nuts only to 
> > reach
> > > the precision you claim for the "brute".
> > > 
> > > Bottom line is I'm still interested in getting your plans (for 
the
> > > burte), cause I'm more than convinced that they contain enough 
> > detail
> > > information saving me hours of hassle hence justifying the 
price. 
> > Wire
> > > transfering shipping charges along with the price of the plans 
to 
> > any
> > > bank acount of yours you name (in a privat e-mail to me of 
course)
> > > would just take some mouse clicks. (That's something we're 
really 
> > good
> > > at here in Switzerland. We don't use checks of any nature 
anymore 

> > for
> > > at least more than 20 years now  :))) )
> > > 
> > > Markus

Eh, I wasn't worried, it isn't like you are spamming.

Pretty much anything made one-of is going to cost -way- more in time
than would be worth it if you were to sell it. This includes making
our own printed circuit boards.

Which is why hobbyists and small prototypers make this stuff
ourselves, but big places tend to send out to have it done.

I've bought an XY table to convert into a small CNC milling machine.
This was the one suggested in the Nuts 'N Volts article, and I was
fortunate to get it on sale at nearly half-price. I'm just stalled on
it because of the thousands of other projects I'm working on.

Speaking of time vs money- I bought a 16F877 development board rather
than assemble something because 1. I have no time on this particular
project (I should be working on it right now) and 2. I got it for only
$27 plus shipping. I won't recommend the company, though, unless you
are in no hurry to receive your items. I was in a hurry, and paid
extra for 3 to 6 day shipping, and it took 10 days to get here. But
they are refunding the extra I'd paid for expedited shipping. I felt
they were rather disenginuous about when and where it shipped from,
and why there was a small overcharge.

The boards, however, are superb and I could not have done as well,
certainly not in the time I have.

However, I have other projects for which space and money is at a
premium so I am using SMT and am going to make my own PCBs.

Yes, so far the Future Floor polish thing is an urban myth. Stefan is
the only person I know who confirms that he tried it, and that didn't
work out. I do have that Epson 800 piezo head to try but not until
after this weekend, as that when my current project has to be up and
running.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:

> Steve,
>       I went back and looked at my first message. It looks more like 
> an ad than what I was trying to say. What I wanted to say is selling 
> a built machine is very hard. Even if you charged $500 each the 
> profit would be small. Several people made one of my machines and 
> sold it on Ebay. They made $25 profit not counting their time!

Steve,
      I designed and built a simple plotter with power so people 
could Scratch and Etch boards. Then the floor wax idea hit. So I 
dropped the ball. One year later I dropped by only to find nobody got 
it to work. Have you ever refilled a cartridge? Sometimes that does 
not work out well! The whole thing reminds of the dental drill on the 
plotter. The plotter can barely handle the pen never mind a drill 
bit. The guy who wrote the article must have used a plotter from the 
70s. Now they had power!

                                                John 






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> Eh, I wasn't worried, it isn't like you are spamming.
> 
> Pretty much anything made one-of is going to cost -way- more in time
> than would be worth it if you were to sell it. This includes making
> our own printed circuit boards.
> 
> Which is why hobbyists and small prototypers make this stuff
> ourselves, but big places tend to send out to have it done.
> 
> I've bought an XY table to convert into a small CNC milling machine.
> This was the one suggested in the Nuts 'N Volts article, and I was
> fortunate to get it on sale at nearly half-price. I'm just stalled 
on
> it because of the thousands of other projects I'm working on.
> 
> Speaking of time vs money- I bought a 16F877 development board 
rather
> than assemble something because 1. I have no time on this particular
> project (I should be working on it right now) and 2. I got it for 
only
> $27 plus shipping. I won't recommend the company, though, unless you
> are in no hurry to receive your items. I was in a hurry, and paid
> extra for 3 to 6 day shipping, and it took 10 days to get here. But
> they are refunding the extra I'd paid for expedited shipping. I felt
> they were rather disenginuous about when and where it shipped from,
> and why there was a small overcharge.
> 
> The boards, however, are superb and I could not have done as well,
> certainly not in the time I have.
> 
> However, I have other projects for which space and money is at a
> premium so I am using SMT and am going to make my own PCBs.
> 
> Yes, so far the Future Floor polish thing is an urban myth. Stefan 
is
> the only person I know who confirms that he tried it, and that 
didn't
> work out. I do have that Epson 800 piezo head to try but not until
> after this weekend, as that when my current project has to be up and
> running.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> 
wrote:
> > Steve,
> >       I went back and looked at my first message. It looks more 
like 
> > an ad than what I was trying to say. What I wanted to say is 
selling 

> > a built machine is very hard. Even if you charged $500 each the 
> > profit would be small. Several people made one of my machines and 
> > sold it on Ebay. They made $25 profit not counting their time!