Homebrew PCBs

Hi guys,

I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine 
and is easy to get and dispose of when spent.  The downside is the 
mess.

I know there are a couple of other options out there and am willing 
to give something else a try but am hesitant on two accounts

1) I am not a chemist
2) I don't want to kill myself

Of the options that are available, which is a simple product to use 
AND maintain?

What are the drawbacks to these other products (chemicals)?

I am a bit concerned about the gasses given off.  I etch in my garage 
which is filled with machinery of which I don't want all rusted up.  
On nice days I work outside, but during the winter I etch inside.  

Smells can be another problem.  After smoking for 25 years or so and 
quiting, asthma and other respiratory problems are an issue.  

So, if you have experience with other chemicals for etching, I sure 
would appreciate hearing about your experiences and opinions.

Chris

A minimally maintained CuCl etchant works well for me, right next to
machinery and tools.
The etchant container is covered, and i also put an upside down plastic box
over the whole setup, as a lid to keep the dust out. There is no rusting
noticeable nearby. I keep the bottles of HCL and H2O2 next to the etching
container, also under the dust cover. I did spot some rust on a spray can
when left directly next to a closed plastic bottle of HCl.

For my use i find it sufficient to maintain the CuCl by guesswork rather
than analysis. But i do have the stuff to properly measure HCl molarity and
density, if i ever really need to. So far i only tried it a couple of times
for fun.

It isn't the fastest etchant (especially since the working parameters are
not ideal), but it's been sitting there for years and given me good service
at extremely low cost and maintainance so i am satisfied.

ST

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 12:15 PM, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...>wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine
> and is easy to get and dispose of when spent.  The downside is the
> mess.
>
> I know there are a couple of other options out there and am willing
> to give something else a try but am hesitant on two accounts
>
> 1) I am not a chemist
> 2) I don't want to kill myself
>
> Of the options that are available, which is a simple product to use
> AND maintain?
>
> What are the drawbacks to these other products (chemicals)?
>
> I am a bit concerned about the gasses given off.  I etch in my garage
> which is filled with machinery of which I don't want all rusted up.
> On nice days I work outside, but during the winter I etch inside.
>
> Smells can be another problem.  After smoking for 25 years or so and
> quiting, asthma and other respiratory problems are an issue.
>
> So, if you have experience with other chemicals for etching, I sure
> would appreciate hearing about your experiences and opinions.
>
> Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Getting ready to switch from Ferric Chloride to 
???????


> Hi guys,
>
> I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine
> and is easy to get and dispose of when spent.  The downside is the
> mess.
>
> I know there are a couple of other options out there and am willing
> to give something else a try but am hesitant on two accounts
>
> 1) I am not a chemist
> 2) I don't want to kill myself
>
> Of the options that are available, which is a simple product to use
> AND maintain?

Cupric chloride is probably the best, and is quite safe.

I'm sticking to FeCL3, though.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> 
> I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine 
> and is easy to get and dispose of when spent.  The downside is the 
> mess.
> 

May I ask how one is meant to dispose of FeCl3 etchant once it's spent?
I've been stockpiling my waste etchant for too long, some time soon I
need to get rid of it safely...

Thanks.
Steve.

In a message dated 10/6/2008 7:47:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
steve@... writes:

I've  been stockpiling my waste etchant for too long, some time soon I
need to  get rid of it safely...<<
Flush it down the loo, and don't TELL anyone!  If any  fears or feelings of 
tree-huggingness, do so only a liter per evening, or  whatever!





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Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!      
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JanRwl@... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/6/2008 7:47:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> steve@... writes:
> 
> I've  been stockpiling my waste etchant for too long, some time soon I
> need to  get rid of it safely...<<
> Flush it down the loo, and don't TELL anyone!  If any  fears or feelings of 
> tree-huggingness, do so only a liter per evening, or  whatever!

FeCl is used as a floculent in sewage treatment. CuSO4 is in toilet sewage
pipe un-blocker tablets (root-rot). Used etchant is a very good weedkiller
and root killer for blocked pipes.

Because i'm using a bubble etcher, i just top up the etchant with HCl and
am using the same etchant for 2 years. It never gets 'spent'.

In this area they have a hazardous waste disposable event once a year.  
You might ask around to see when a hazardous waste disposable event is 
scheduled for your locale.

Howard

lets_offroad wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine
> > and is easy to get and dispose of when spent. The downside is the
> > mess.
> >
>
> May I ask how one is meant to dispose of FeCl3 etchant once it's spent?
> I've been stockpiling my waste etchant for too long, some time soon I
> need to get rid of it safely...
>
> Thanks.
> Steve.
>




>
>

Howard Hansen wrote:
> In this area they have a hazardous waste disposable event once a year.  
> You might ask around to see when a hazardous waste disposable event is 
> scheduled for your locale.
> 
> Howard

Spent FeCl would be considered "industrial waste", which is apparently 
not accepted by the free annual hazardous waste disposal event organised 
by my city council.
For volumes < 25 liters there is the lime and cement trick. I have about 
10kg of dried salts I've accumulated over the years, about 1/2 is copper 
salts.

  If you have > 25 liters then it may be best to take it to a chemical 
disposal yard for a fee.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Adam Seychell" <a_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting ready to switch from Ferric 
Chloride to ???????


> Howard Hansen wrote:
>> In this area they have a hazardous waste disposable event once a year.
>> You might ask around to see when a hazardous waste disposable event is
>> scheduled for your locale.
>>
>> Howard
>
> Spent FeCl would be considered "industrial waste", which is apparently
> not accepted by the free annual hazardous waste disposal event organised
> by my city council.
> For volumes < 25 liters there is the lime and cement trick. I have about
> 10kg of dried salts I've accumulated over the years, about 1/2 is copper
> salts.
>
>  If you have > 25 liters then it may be best to take it to a chemical
> disposal yard for a fee.

The occasional pint or two won't matter. Ferric chloride is used for water 
treatment, and the amount of copper is negligible, compared to what must get 
into the water from the copper pipes used in plumbing.

Leon

The limit here in Europe is 0.5mg copper per liter of sewage. Some time ago
i calculated how much water you'd need to dilute the copper form a single
board enough and it was something like several cubic meters (one cubic meter
= 1000l = 1ton). Now you probably don't want to flush that much down the
drain every time, so it is illegal.

However, averaged over time and a larger area you probably reach that level
of dilution easily. That doesn't make it legal though.

Personally, i use CuCl and if it ever grows to more than i need i will
decide what to do with the excess. So far that has not happened. I wash the
boards in the sink, having decided that the rinsing water does not contain
enough copper to pose a problem.

You can buy small commercial stations now that use ion exchangers for
treatment of rinsing water.

ST


On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> The occasional pint or two won't matter. Ferric chloride is used for water
> treatment, and the amount of copper is negligible, compared to what must
> get
> into the water from the copper pipes used in plumbing.
>
> Leon
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> The limit here in Europe is 0.5mg copper per liter of sewage. Some time ago
> i calculated how much water you'd need to dilute the copper form a single
> board enough and it was something like several cubic meters (one cubic meter
> = 1000l = 1ton). Now you probably don't want to flush that much down the
> drain every time, so it is illegal.

Here you can buy and use toilet un-blocker tablets with several grams of copper.

You can buy and use *sack loads* of copper sulphate lawn moss killer here.

> However, averaged over time and a larger area you probably reach that level
> of dilution easily. That doesn't make it legal though.
> 
> Personally, i use CuCl and if it ever grows to more than i need i will
> decide what to do with the excess. So far that has not happened. I wash the
> boards in the sink, having decided that the rinsing water does not contain
> enough copper to pose a problem.
> 
> You can buy small commercial stations now that use ion exchangers for
> treatment of rinsing water.

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> 
> You can buy small commercial stations now that use ion exchangers for
> treatment of rinsing water.
> 

Traditionally, people precipitate the copper in large tanks and after 
the solids settle, it should be below about 5ppm and ready to dump. ion 
exchanges are only required when precipitation fails , for example, 
rinse waters containing chelators, which keep metal ions soluble.

Are you sure the discharge limit in Europe is 0.5mg ?, That level is 
lower than what is considered safe to drink. Heck , some natural water 
supplies are higher than 0.5mg.

I'm sure, i've read the documents just a few days ago because i'm looking
into putting up a small prototyping PCB line at work.
Some german made PCB lines come with ion exchanger, the ones from Mega UK
don't, but they do sell the separate unit for treatment.

I don't say that it makes sense though.

ST

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>wrote:

>
> Traditionally, people precipitate the copper in large tanks and after
> the solids settle, it should be below about 5ppm and ready to dump. ion
> exchanges are only required when precipitation fails , for example,
> rinse waters containing chelators, which keep metal ions soluble.
>
> Are you sure the discharge limit in Europe is 0.5mg ?, That level is
> lower than what is considered safe to drink. Heck , some natural water
> supplies are higher than 0.5mg.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Adam Seychell" <a_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting ready to switch from Ferric 
Chloride to ???????


> Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>
>> You can buy small commercial stations now that use ion exchangers for
>> treatment of rinsing water.
>>
>
> Traditionally, people precipitate the copper in large tanks and after
> the solids settle, it should be below about 5ppm and ready to dump. ion
> exchanges are only required when precipitation fails , for example,
> rinse waters containing chelators, which keep metal ions soluble.
>
> Are you sure the discharge limit in Europe is 0.5mg ?, That level is
> lower than what is considered safe to drink. Heck , some natural water
> supplies are higher than 0.5mg.

I found this in an official doc on water quality:

20. Copper - copper is normally only found in polluted waters, although 
trace amounts are sometimes found in soft moorland waters. Normally, copper 
is found as a result of corrosion from copper and copper containing alloys 
in plumbing systems.

As I said previously, there will be far more copper getting in the effluent 
from copper pipes than that in the the litre or so per year that I pour down 
the bog.

Leon

As long as you don't dispose of a large amount at once in this way i don't
expect a problem.
What constitutes a "large amount" probably depends on the size of your
sewage treatment plant.

ST

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> I found this in an official doc on water quality:
>
> 20. Copper - copper is normally only found in polluted waters, although
> trace amounts are sometimes found in soft moorland waters. Normally, copper
> is found as a result of corrosion from copper and copper containing alloys
> in plumbing systems.
>
> As I said previously, there will be far more copper getting in the effluent
> from copper pipes than that in the the litre or so per year that I pour
> down
> the bog.
>
> Leon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting ready to switch from Ferric 
Chloride to ???????


> As long as you don't dispose of a large amount at once in this way i don't
> expect a problem.
> What constitutes a "large amount" probably depends on the size of your
> sewage treatment plant.


I saw somewhere else that one shouldn't drink from the hot water supply, 
because the heat causes the water to have high copper levels. I've known 
people who always filled kettles from the hot tap, to save energy.

Leon

I've seen copper kettles and pots and pans....

;-)

ST

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting ready to switch from Ferric
> Chloride to ???????
>
>
> > As long as you don't dispose of a large amount at once in this way i
> don't
> > expect a problem.
> > What constitutes a "large amount" probably depends on the size of your
> > sewage treatment plant.
>
>
> I saw somewhere else that one shouldn't drink from the hot water supply,
> because the heat causes the water to have high copper levels. I've known
> people who always filled kettles from the hot tap, to save energy.
>
> Leon
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting ready to switch from Ferric 
Chloride to ???????


> I've seen copper kettles and pots and pans....

The pans are usually coated inside with tin. I suppose that is toxic, but 
less so than copper.

Leon

Hello, 
I've been etching my PCB for two years without using FeCl.
I simply use a Dremel tool with a vacuum cleaner to avoid dust dispersion.
Do you know other mechanical methods ?
Bye


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> 
> I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine 
> and is easy to get and dispose of when spent.  The downside is the 
> mess.
> 

I recall reading an article about a fellow who "regenerated" his
Ferric Chloride by using electrolysis.   He'd use iron for (I think)
the cathode and a copper target for the anode.   He'd pass a DC
current through the solution, plating the copper out of the solution
and substituting iron.

In this way he'd remove the copper chloride and substitute iron
chloride, "regenerating" the solution for more use.

Don't recall where it can be found, perhaps Google?


There is a site called "Think 'n Tinker" which offers a peroxide system. 

http://www.thinktink.com

The author claims that it has a "two phase" effect - when the solution
is hot it removes copper from the boards and when it is cold the
copper comes out of solution.  You have to maintain the solution with
some reagents and must carefully watch the temperatures. I have no
experience with this process but have worked in the past with
peracetic acid (nasty stuff).

Gene

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Gene" <gene@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting ready to switch from Ferric Chloride to 
???????


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I have been using Ferric Chloride for a few years now - works fine
>> and is easy to get and dispose of when spent.  The downside is the
>> mess.
>>
>
> I recall reading an article about a fellow who "regenerated" his
> Ferric Chloride by using electrolysis.   He'd use iron for (I think)
> the cathode and a copper target for the anode.   He'd pass a DC
> current through the solution, plating the copper out of the solution
> and substituting iron.
>
> In this way he'd remove the copper chloride and substitute iron
> chloride, "regenerating" the solution for more use.

It can be regenerated with H2O2 and HCl, of course. The original ferric 
chloride will still be present, with cupric chloride, which is also an 
etchant.

Leon

This subject has been discussed before but I'm wondering if anyone 
has tried this method before. I looks pretty simple to do and uses 
readily available material. I would imagine that to make even more 
reliable after this process is complete, you tin the board adding 
extra metal in the holes.

I was thinking of doing something similar with silver ink, but the 
material to repair auto glass heaters might be cheaper

<  http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/plated_thru_holes.html  >

There is a lot of useful information on that web site, but it takes 
effort as some of the information is hard to find.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa
<  http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > <  http://www.softrockradio.org/ >

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Hi,

Does anyone know what happens to conductive inks and epoxy if the board goes through a reflow oven, or if someone tries soldering to the feedthrough?

Cheers,
Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Bayona
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2014 11:50 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plating PCB thru holes

This subject has been discussed before but I'm wondering if anyone 
has tried this method before. I looks pretty simple to do and uses 
readily available material. I would imagine that to make even more 
reliable after this process is complete, you tin the board adding 
extra metal in the holes.

I was thinking of doing something similar with silver ink, but the 
material to repair auto glass heaters might be cheaper

<  http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/plated_thru_holes.html  >

There is a lot of useful information on that web site, but it takes 
effort as some of the information is hard to find.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa
<  http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > <  http://www.softrockradio.org/ >

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 01:33:47 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Does anyone know what happens to conductive inks and epoxy if the board goes through a reflow oven, or if someone tries soldering to the feedthrough?

I suspect that epoxy will decompose, burn is likely the right answer,
depending on the temperature.

I also suspect that a conductive ink is conductive particles in a
binder, and when that binder is heated, it will decompose, that may
cause the ink to fail.

In commercial applications, the conductive "ink" coats the inside of
the hole, connecting the layers just enough to render them conductive.
Plating over that connects the layers.  If the original coating
deteriorates, I suspect it makes no difference at that point

The burned epoxy may prevent the solder from wetting the copper,
resulting in a bad joint

Not tried it, though.

Harvey

>
>Cheers,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Bayona
>Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2014 11:50 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plating PCB thru holes
>
>This subject has been discussed before but I'm wondering if anyone 
>has tried this method before. I looks pretty simple to do and uses 
>readily available material. I would imagine that to make even more 
>reliable after this process is complete, you tin the board adding 
>extra metal in the holes.
>
>I was thinking of doing something similar with silver ink, but the 
>material to repair auto glass heaters might be cheaper
>
><  http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/plated_thru_holes.html  >
>
>There is a lot of useful information on that web site, but it takes 
>effort as some of the information is hard to find.

The link I provided to a method using Glass Defogger repair kit said 
that it survived running the board through five SMT Soldering oven 
tries, that is not bad.

At 08:33 PM 4/13/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi,
>
>Does anyone know what happens to conductive inks and epoxy if the 
>board goes through a reflow oven, or if someone tries soldering to 
>the feedthrough?
>
>Cheers,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Bayona
>Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2014 11:50 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plating PCB thru holes
>
>This subject has been discussed before but I'm wondering if anyone
>has tried this method before. I looks pretty simple to do and uses
>readily available material. I would imagine that to make even more
>reliable after this process is complete, you tin the board adding
>extra metal in the holes.
>
>I was thinking of doing something similar with silver ink, but the
>material to repair auto glass heaters might be cheaper
>
>< http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/plated_thru_holes.html >
>
>There is a lot of useful information on that web site, but it takes
>effort as some of the information is hard to find.
>
>--
>Cecil - k5nwa
>< http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > < http://www.softrockradio.org/ >
>
>Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa
<  http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > <  http://www.softrockradio.org/ >

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.