Homebrew PCBs

I have a quick question. I have a Samsung ML-1650 Laser printer will this work for PCB applications??


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "J Liccardi" <promaint999@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:30 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Laser Printer


>I have a quick question. I have a Samsung ML-1650 Laser printer will this 
>work for PCB applications??

Toner transfer?

Leon

The Ml-1650 'will"\' work, but the Samsung toner requires more heat and is
less forgiving than others.

Definitely try it. You may have to try a few different papers to gt the bet
results.

Myc

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:30 AM, J Liccardi <promaint999@...> wrote:

>   I have a quick question. I have a Samsung ML-1650 Laser printer will
> this work for PCB applications??
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes,,, Toner transfer

--- On Wed, 8/13/08, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

From: Leon <leon355@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Laser Printer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 6:04 AM










    
            ----- Original Message ----- 

From: "J Liccardi" <promaint999@ yahoo.com>

To: <Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com>

Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:30 AM

Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Laser Printer



>I have a quick question. I have a Samsung ML-1650 Laser printer will this 

>work for PCB applications? ?



Toner transfer?



Leon




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That makes me feel better....I did not want to put out the price for another Laser.
                                                            thanks Jim Liccardi

--- On Wed, 8/13/08, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:

From: Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Laser Printer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 6:48 AM










    
            The Ml-1650 'will"\' work, but the Samsung toner requires more heat and is

less forgiving than others.



Definitely try it. You may have to try a few different papers to gt the bet

results.



Myc



On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:30 AM, J Liccardi <promaint999@ yahoo.com> wrote:



>   I have a quick question. I have a Samsung ML-1650 Laser printer will

> this work for PCB applications? ?

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> 

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes...
...if you use the proper paper


--- On Wed, 8/13/08, J Liccardi <promaint999@...> wrote:

> I have a quick question. I have a Samsung ML-1650 Laser
> printer will this work for PCB applications??

My Samsung ML-1710 does very well with toner transfer.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I used a Samsung SCX-4200 MFC printing from Eagle on Linux and 
it works fine for toner transfer. The Linux drivers
are Samsung Unified Linux Drivers from their website.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <bobledoux@...> wrote:
>
> My Samsung ML-1710 does very well with toner transfer.

Hi,

A while ago there was a discussion, or probably several discussions, 
about using a laser printer to apply toner as resist.
As usual I didn't read that particular series of posts, BUT NOW, I 
would like to know more about it.

If someone could tell me what type of printer, normal toner?, any www 
links, special settings or modifications, etc.

Sorry to bring this one up again.

regards,

Daryl 
LogicResearch

Daryl,
Try running a search on past messages or even on Google for "Toner
Transfer".

There are many good websites describing the process.

It can take a little trial and error to get the process correct, but it is a
great process for making pcbs at home.

TANSTAAFL!,

Myc

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 12:33 PM, logicresearch <logicresearch@...>wrote:

>   Hi,
>
> A while ago there was a discussion, or probably several discussions,
> about using a laser printer to apply toner as resist.
> As usual I didn't read that particular series of posts, BUT NOW, I
> would like to know more about it.
>
> If someone could tell me what type of printer, normal toner?, any www
> links, special settings or modifications, etc.
>
> Sorry to bring this one up again.
>
> regards,
>
> Daryl
> LogicResearch
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am wanting information on using a Laser printer process for making homebrew pcb's. I have a Dell 1700 laser printer and understand
that it will work well for printed circuit board prints for board etching.

But what type and weight paper do I use, ect?

Can anyone point me to a good process description on the web that tells step by step how to use this method? 

I am also wondering with all the different choices out there, how do you know how thick the layer of copper should be on the board.
I am finding .060 and .090, but not sure what to choose.

I think I may purchase a Radio Shack kit for etching the board. It is Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576, is there anything bad about that
choice? 

I really dont have a lot of money to spend on mistakes, I need something that works first time out of the chute.

Bob AD5VJ

Bob AD5VJ,

Not to be rude, but its hard to imagine that a person that is too lazy to use google or do even a little searching through the archives of this or similar groups will be successful.

Look in the files (and on google) there are numerous step by step writeups for laser toner-transfer based pcbs - I've had the best luck printing onto Staples Photo Glossy paper and also onto used(ripped out) magazine pages.  The real challenge is that there are very few single sided designs out there so you'll either have to design your own using Eagle or some other eda tool none of which are particularly easy and or you'll need a drill press that allows you to drill the vias and in through-holes you'll need for through hole components.     Also, If you have a cnc mill its also possible to mill the traces rather than printing them - do a search for pcb-gcode which is an open source plugin to eagle that produces gcode output that can be run on mach3 (or other cnc controller software) to produce traces.  For any DIY process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling vias is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce the success rate, at least in my experience, to well below 50%.  

Realistically, imo, printing your own pcb's is more for fun and for understanding the process than any real money you'll save.  There are inexpensive pcb manufacturing services for small runs, most notably batchpcb run by sparkfun, which are probably worth considering if you actually need a board that works.  i've been messing with this for a couple of years and my success rate on boards is still probably less than 50% - by that I mean that the board comes out of the chemical bath and/or after routing and all traces are in the right place and work properly.  In most cases you can manually repair a bad pcb by soldering wire in to replace a bad trace but again it takes time to find and manually repair these things.  

Hth.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:

>
> I am wanting information on using a Laser printer process for making homebrew pcb's. I have a Dell 1700 laser printer and understand
> that it will work well for printed circuit board prints for board etching.
> 
> But what type and weight paper do I use, ect?
> 
> Can anyone point me to a good process description on the web that tells step by step how to use this method? 
> 
> I am also wondering with all the different choices out there, how do you know how thick the layer of copper should be on the board.
> I am finding .060 and .090, but not sure what to choose.
> 
> I think I may purchase a Radio Shack kit for etching the board. It is Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576, is there anything bad about that
> choice? 
> 
> I really dont have a lot of money to spend on mistakes, I need something that works first time out of the chute.
> 
> Bob AD5VJ
>

Bob,

I have been doing a lot of HB PCB lately and have learned a lot, check it
out at:

http://wa0uwh.blogspot.com/search/label/PCB


Regards,
Eldon - WA0UWH


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Don't expect perfect results your first time.  There are many many many articles online covering the laser toner transfer.  If you are looking for a cheap reusable setup, look into cupric chloride (the green stuff you make with hardware store muratic acid, and peroxide).  As for paper, a lot of people recommend staples brand photo paper, I just use old magazines with glossy paper.  And for good priced copper-clad look at what goldmineelectronics.com has to offer.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:

>
> I am wanting information on using a Laser printer process for making homebrew pcb's. I have a Dell 1700 laser printer and understand
> that it will work well for printed circuit board prints for board etching.
> 
> But what type and weight paper do I use, ect?
> 
> Can anyone point me to a good process description on the web that tells step by step how to use this method? 
> 
> I am also wondering with all the different choices out there, how do you know how thick the layer of copper should be on the board.
> I am finding .060 and .090, but not sure what to choose.
> 
> I think I may purchase a Radio Shack kit for etching the board. It is Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576, is there anything bad about that
> choice? 
> 
> I really dont have a lot of money to spend on mistakes, I need something that works first time out of the chute.
> 
> Bob AD5VJ
>

I can't say anything about the printer, but with regard to the PCB, the thicker the copper, the better it is generally speaking...I cannot think of a reason for thin copper except to save money.....

a few cents?
Greetings from

Andy Mathison

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<edited by moderator to remove spurious spam warning in subject line>

Hi Lee

I dont see you as rude. 

I just know so little I wasn't sure how to start looking. No problem though, you have given me a good head start and some great
ideas, tnx for the reply.

Bob AD5VJ 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lee
> Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:28 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer
> 
> Bob AD5VJ,
> 
> Not to be rude, but its hard to imagine that a person that is 
> too lazy to use google or do even a little searching through 
> the archives of this or similar groups will be successful.
> 
> Look in the files (and on google) there are numerous step by 
> step writeups for laser toner-transfer based pcbs - I've had 
> the best luck printing onto Staples Photo Glossy paper and 
> also onto used(ripped out) magazine pages.  The real 
> challenge is that there are very few single sided designs out 
> there so you'll either have to design your own using Eagle or 
> some other eda tool none of which are particularly easy and 
> or you'll need a drill press that allows you to drill the 
> vias and in through-holes you'll need for through hole 
> components.     Also, If you have a cnc mill its also 
> possible to mill the traces rather than printing them - do a 
> search for pcb-gcode which is an open source plugin to eagle 
> that produces gcode output that can be run on mach3 (or other 
> cnc controller software) to produce traces.  For any DIY 
> process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling vias 
> is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce the 
> success rate, at least in my experience, to well below 50%.  
> 
> Realistically, imo, printing your own pcb's is more for fun 
> and for understanding the process than any real money you'll 
> save.  There are inexpensive pcb manufacturing services for 
> small runs, most notably batchpcb run by sparkfun, which are 
> probably worth considering if you actually need a board that 
> works.  i've been messing with this for a couple of years and 
> my success rate on boards is still probably less than 50% - 
> by that I mean that the board comes out of the chemical bath 
> and/or after routing and all traces are in the right place 
> and work properly.  In most cases you can manually repair a 
> bad pcb by soldering wire in to replace a bad trace but again 
> it takes time to find and manually repair these things.  
> 
> Hth.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am wanting information on using a Laser printer process 
> for making 
> > homebrew pcb's. I have a Dell 1700 laser printer and 
> understand that it will work well for printed circuit board 
> prints for board etching.
> > 
> > But what type and weight paper do I use, ect?
> > 
> > Can anyone point me to a good process description on the 
> web that tells step by step how to use this method? 
> > 
> > I am also wondering with all the different choices out 
> there, how do you know how thick the layer of copper should 
> be on the board.
> > I am finding .060 and .090, but not sure what to choose.
> > 
> > I think I may purchase a Radio Shack kit for etching the 
> board. It is 
> > Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576, is there anything bad about 
> that choice?
> > 
> > I really dont have a lot of money to spend on mistakes, I 
> need something that works first time out of the chute.
> > 
> > Bob AD5VJ
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Hi Lee

Lots of info out there on google buddy. I started making my own around a year ago. I have now converted a hot laminator to transfer the print to the copper clad. My paper of choice is HP everyday photopaper semi gloss.

I find semi gloss soaks off much better than the gloss photo started with. I have done around 30 PCB's in the year since I took the plunge. It's great! Good luck, have fun.

regards

Fenris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Lee
> 
> I dont see you as rude. 
> 
> I just know so little I wasn't sure how to start looking. No problem though, you have given me a good head start and some great
> ideas, tnx for the reply.
> 
> Bob AD5VJ 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lee
> > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:28 AM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer
> > 
> > Bob AD5VJ,
> > 
> > Not to be rude, but its hard to imagine that a person that is 
> > too lazy to use google or do even a little searching through 
> > the archives of this or similar groups will be successful.
> > 
> > Look in the files (and on google) there are numerous step by 
> > step writeups for laser toner-transfer based pcbs - I've had 
> > the best luck printing onto Staples Photo Glossy paper and 
> > also onto used(ripped out) magazine pages.  The real 
> > challenge is that there are very few single sided designs out 
> > there so you'll either have to design your own using Eagle or 
> > some other eda tool none of which are particularly easy and 
> > or you'll need a drill press that allows you to drill the 
> > vias and in through-holes you'll need for through hole 
> > components.     Also, If you have a cnc mill its also 
> > possible to mill the traces rather than printing them - do a 
> > search for pcb-gcode which is an open source plugin to eagle 
> > that produces gcode output that can be run on mach3 (or other 
> > cnc controller software) to produce traces.  For any DIY 
> > process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling vias 
> > is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce the 
> > success rate, at least in my experience, to well below 50%.  
> > 
> > Realistically, imo, printing your own pcb's is more for fun 
> > and for understanding the process than any real money you'll 
> > save.  There are inexpensive pcb manufacturing services for 
> > small runs, most notably batchpcb run by sparkfun, which are 
> > probably worth considering if you actually need a board that 
> > works.  i've been messing with this for a couple of years and 
> > my success rate on boards is still probably less than 50% - 
> > by that I mean that the board comes out of the chemical bath 
> > and/or after routing and all traces are in the right place 
> > and work properly.  In most cases you can manually repair a 
> > bad pcb by soldering wire in to replace a bad trace but again 
> > it takes time to find and manually repair these things.  
> > 
> > Hth.
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am wanting information on using a Laser printer process 
> > for making 
> > > homebrew pcb's. I have a Dell 1700 laser printer and 
> > understand that it will work well for printed circuit board 
> > prints for board etching.
> > > 
> > > But what type and weight paper do I use, ect?
> > > 
> > > Can anyone point me to a good process description on the 
> > web that tells step by step how to use this method? 
> > > 
> > > I am also wondering with all the different choices out 
> > there, how do you know how thick the layer of copper should 
> > be on the board.
> > > I am finding .060 and .090, but not sure what to choose.
> > > 
> > > I think I may purchase a Radio Shack kit for etching the 
> > board. It is 
> > > Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576, is there anything bad about 
> > that choice?
> > > 
> > > I really dont have a lot of money to spend on mistakes, I 
> > need something that works first time out of the chute.
> > > 
> > > Bob AD5VJ
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> > Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >
>

El 03-oct-09, a las 15:27, Lee escribió:
>  For any DIY process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling  
> vias is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce the  
> success rate, at least in my experience, to we
> ll below 50%.

Hmm, that seems to be a very high failure rate - I've had a 100%  
success rate with getting the registration right with double sided  
boards, done using toner transfer. My second ever board was double  
sided.

Getting the two sides to line up doesn't need to be hard. The best  
method I've found is print on glossy paper (rather than bits of  
magazine), and hold the two sides face in up to the light. The sun  
through a window makes an excellent light source, but otherwise a  
table lamp works adequately. Get the two sides to line up, then tape  
one end of the paper as a "hinge". Double check the line up after  
making the tape hinge, then place the copper board between the sheets  
and get busy with the iron. I've never had a registration failure -  
the worst board I made still had enough overlap that it was usable.  
The worst I've had is an occasional broken trace - but most the boards  
I make at home these days are sufficiently small that it's not a big  
job to find them.

The good thing about home making a board is you can go from PCB layout  
to a functional circuit in hours - there's no two or three week  
turnaround time that there is when you send a design away.

I'd agree if you're making a large complex board with hundreds of  
traces, you'll save a lot of aggravation by using a PCB manufacturer.  
Or if you want to make several boards of the same design (many PCB  
makers have a fairly stiff price for the first board, but successive  
boards get quite a bit cheaper because there's no more setup to do. I  
needed ten of a recent design, and it was obvious that the correct  
thing to do was just get them made by PCB Cart. Especially as it was 4  
layer :-)

I just purchased some 200 HP Laser 4x6" Glossy Photo Paper off of ebay hope that works with my Dell 1700 laser printer. Cant find
anything but 4X6" in the photo paper, hope that is good.

 I also accidentally purchased  Staples 4X6 Photo Plus Glossy Inkjet Photo Paper 60 Ct. I already have an inkjet printer, but, I
didn't realize the Staples paper was inkjet until I committed to the purchase. I searched for 'GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER' and should have
searched for 'LASER GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER' oh well live and learn.

I cant find any etchant except for a 'Printed Circuit Board Etching Kit by Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576' on ebay so will have to go
to another source for etchant I guess.

The rest looks pretty easy and straight forward to do.

Bob AD5VJ

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dylan Smith
> Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:09 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer
> 
> 
> El 03-oct-09, a las 15:27, Lee escribió:
> >  For any DIY process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling 
> > vias is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce 
> the success 
> > rate, at least in my experience, to we ll below 50%.
> 
> Hmm, that seems to be a very high failure rate - I've had a 
> 100% success rate with getting the registration right with 
> double sided boards, done using toner transfer. My second 
> ever board was double sided.
> 
> Getting the two sides to line up doesn't need to be hard. The 
> best method I've found is print on glossy paper (rather than 
> bits of magazine), and hold the two sides face in up to the 
> light. The sun through a window makes an excellent light 
> source, but otherwise a table lamp works adequately. Get the 
> two sides to line up, then tape one end of the paper as a 
> "hinge". Double check the line up after making the tape 
> hinge, then place the copper board between the sheets and get 
> busy with the iron. I've never had a registration failure - 
> the worst board I made still had enough overlap that it was usable.  
> The worst I've had is an occasional broken trace - but most 
> the boards I make at home these days are sufficiently small 
> that it's not a big job to find them.
> 
> The good thing about home making a board is you can go from 
> PCB layout to a functional circuit in hours - there's no two 
> or three week turnaround time that there is when you send a 
> design away.
> 
> I'd agree if you're making a large complex board with 
> hundreds of traces, you'll save a lot of aggravation by using 
> a PCB manufacturer.  
> Or if you want to make several boards of the same design 
> (many PCB makers have a fairly stiff price for the first 
> board, but successive boards get quite a bit cheaper because 
> there's no more setup to do. I needed ten of a recent design, 
> and it was obvious that the correct thing to do was just get 
> them made by PCB Cart. Especially as it was 4 layer :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Thanks for the hints.

Alignment hasn't really been that big of an issue - I use more/less the same method you describe.  The biggest issues I continue to have are in getting consistent & solid transfer off of the paper onto the board.  More often than not its just some small part of a board that doesn't seem to transfer well - I use the same pressure and temperature on the iron and so haven't been able to come up with good answer as to why one area doesn't transfer as well as another.   When doing a double sided its just that much more area for something to go wrong.  I've also had challenges in drilling the vias where the drill bit will lift and then destroy the trace as it comes through on the bottom side even if I drill into a sacrificial piece - what seems to happen is that the fiberglass will chip and then come lose on the back taking the trace with it.  I think the major issue is that the motor on my mill (which I use for drilling) tops out at 1800 rpm when run manually which I think is too slow.  So calling these boards failures may be bit unfair as most of them have been usable with some generally minor touch up & repair.  I guess I just had delusions that I'd be able to quickly and easily produce usable high(er?) quality boards than I've so far been able to.  I bought bits off of ebay and they may be too worn out too may be the cause of some of the issues.  I would be interesting in knowing what sizes/speeds are most folks using for drilling vias?

I haven't done as many boards with toner transfer since I have CNC and the PCB-GCode method seems at least as reliable and I can have it do both the trace routing and the drilling.  The software is great but the approach has Its own set of challenges mostly around trying to hold the board down flat enough to get consistent depth routing into the board - this is especially critical as the depth defines the width of each trace since I'm using a pointed 45degree V shaped engraving bit for routing.  My slow mill spindle is an issue for that also as it leaves a jagged edge on the traces and occasionally rips out a small hunk of the fiberglass board.  I'm in the process of making a small vacuum hold down table and also attaching a high speed spindle to my mill which will hopefully address the main issues with this approach.  As for paper, I've had more/less same result with glossy photo paper, magazine paper and inkjet transparency film (all with samsung ML-2240 laser printer).  

lw

> Hmm, that seems to be a very high failure rate - I've had a 100%  
> success rate with getting the registration right with double sided  
> boards, done using toner transfer. My second ever board was double  
> sided.
> 
> Getting the two sides to line up doesn't need to be hard. The best  
> method I've found is print on glossy paper (rather than bits of  
> magazine), and hold the two sides face in up to the light. The sun  
> through a window makes an excellent light source, but otherwise a  
> table lamp works adequately. Get the two sides to line up, then tape  
> one end of the paper as a "hinge". Double check the line up after  
> making the tape hinge, then place the copper board between the sheets  
> and get busy with the iron. I've never had a registration failure -  
> the worst board I made still had enough overlap that it was usable.  
> The worst I've had is an occasional broken trace - but most the boards  
> I make at home these days are sufficiently small that it's not a big  
> job to find them.
> 
> The good thing about home making a board is you can go from PCB layout  
> to a functional circuit in hours - there's no two or three week  
> turnaround time that there is when you send a design away.
> 
> I'd agree if you're making a large complex board with hundreds of  
> traces, you'll save a lot of aggravation by using a PCB manufacturer.  
> Or if you want to make several boards of the same design (many PCB  
> makers have a fairly stiff price for the first board, but successive  
> boards get quite a bit cheaper because there's no more setup to do. I  
> needed ten of a recent design, and it was obvious that the correct  
> thing to do was just get them made by PCB Cart. Especially as it was 4  
> layer :-)
>

You mean Bob - I think?  I wasn't the one asking but rather the one telling Bob that there is a lot of info on Google.

Anyway - I'd be interested in hearing more about your laminator conversion and the process you use with it.

lw

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <thenephilim10@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Lee
> 
> Lots of info out there on google buddy. I started making my own around a year ago. I have now converted a hot laminator to transfer the print to the copper clad. My paper of choice is HP everyday photopaper semi gloss.
>

I use HP presentation paper with excellet results! It soaks up water easily and comes off with 
much less trouble than photo paper. If you use an iron to do the transfer I found that if you heat the
board with the iron then remove the iron then use a wallpaper seaming roller to run that back and forth 
to apply the pressure works well as it is hard to apply pressure with 40sq inches of iron sole plate but only 
1/4 sq inch from the roller to apply the pressue..then reheat with the iron as necessary.
another technique that works is to get a piece of wood dowel one inch or greater in diameter and six inches long.

Place the board over the dowel and heat the board with the iron moving the board rolly-polly style over the dowel 
and holding the board with a oven mitt so you dont get burned.

I use aDry iron.It has no holes in the sole plate. I got my iron at a discount store for ten bucks!

I now use a Laminator and I get perfect results..I use a GBC H535 which can take up to 100mills thickness of board..

I use a HP 2100 laser printer ! They can be found for between 25 and fiftu dollars on craigslist!

Mike


 



________________________________

From: AD5VJ Bob <rtnmi@...t>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, October 3, 2009 8:37:47 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer

  
I just purchased some 200 HP Laser 4x6" Glossy Photo Paper off of ebay hope that works with my Dell 1700 laser printer. Cant find
anything but 4X6" in the photo paper, hope that is good.

I also accidentally purchased Staples 4X6 Photo Plus Glossy Inkjet Photo Paper 60 Ct. I already have an inkjet printer, but, I
didn't realize the Staples paper was inkjet until I committed to the purchase. I searched for 'GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER' and should have
searched for 'LASER GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER' oh well live and learn.

I cant find any etchant except for a 'Printed Circuit Board Etching Kit by Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576' on ebay so will have to go
to another source for etchant I guess.

The rest looks pretty easy and straight forward to do.

Bob AD5VJ

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dylan Smith
> Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:09 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer
> 
> 
> El 03-oct-09, a las 15:27, Lee escribió:
> > For any DIY process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling 
> > vias is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce 
> the success 
> > rate, at least in my experience, to we ll below 50%.
> 
> Hmm, that seems to be a very high failure rate - I've had a 
> 100% success rate with getting the registration right with 
> double sided boards, done using toner transfer. My second 
> ever board was double sided.
> 
> Getting the two sides to line up doesn't need to be hard. The 
> best method I've found is print on glossy paper (rather than 
> bits of magazine), and hold the two sides face in up to the 
> light. The sun through a window makes an excellent light 
> source, but otherwise a table lamp works adequately. Get the 
> two sides to line up, then tape one end of the paper as a 
> "hinge". Double check the line up after making the tape 
> hinge, then place the copper board between the sheets and get 
> busy with the iron. I've never had a registration failure - 
> the worst board I made still had enough overlap that it was usable. 
> The worst I've had is an occasional broken trace - but most 
> the boards I make at home these days are sufficiently small 
> that it's not a big job to find them.
> 
> The good thing about home making a board is you can go from 
> PCB layout to a functional circuit in hours - there's no two 
> or three week turnaround time that there is when you send a 
> design away.
> 
> I'd agree if you're making a large complex board with 
> hundreds of traces, you'll save a lot of aggravation by using 
> a PCB manufacturer. 
> Or if you want to make several boards of the same design 
> (many PCB makers have a fairly stiff price for the first 
> board, but successive boards get quite a bit cheaper because 
> there's no more setup to do. I needed ten of a recent design, 
> and it was obvious that the correct thing to do was just get 
> them made by PCB Cart. Especially as it was 4 layer :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> writes:

> I cant find any etchant except for a 'Printed Circuit Board Etching
> Kit by Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576' on ebay so will have to go to
> another source for etchant I guess.

If your local hardware store has hydochloric acid (aka muriatic acid,
aka concrete pre-primer, aka pool pH adjuster) you can use that plus
home-strength hydrogen peroxide to make etchant.

Here are a couple of more tips that have worked for me:

1) I clean my boards with Comet (the blue-green kitchen/bath cleaning 
powered) using hot water and a gray 3M scrubbing pad.  Before, I used 
regular dish soap and the scrubbing pad, but I had issues with lifting 
as well.  Since I started using Comet as my initial cleaning method, I 
have not had a single lifted piece of toner.  It works very well.

2) Just prior to positioning the toner, I wipe the board down one last 
time with denatured alcohol and a CLEAN rag.

3) Get your board assembled (if two sided on separate boards) and drill 
those holes BEFORE you etch.  That leaves a much larger piece of copper 
to stabilize the bit you are drilling.  It makes a big difference.

4) 1800 rpm is not NEARLY fast enough for bits this small.  It's not 
fun, but I have had success with a Dremel in the Dremel drill press.  
Turned all the way up to 30,000 rpm!  Any way to mount a Dremel motor to 
your spindle?

Don't give up.  Once you have the kinks worked out, it is a pretty neat 
process.

Summary of my system:

1) Clean boards -> Comet -> denatured alcohol.
2) Apply toner to board(s).  I currently use a laminator, but I did 
plenty of boards with an iron.
3) Remove paper or plastic film from the board.
4) Drill two alignment holes in each layer of a double sided board, 
diagonals and as far apart as possible
5) Glue boards together with gap filling CA.  I use a pair of pins that 
are just small enough to go into the holes as alignment pins, then weigh 
down with a 5kg weight and let cure for 30 minutes or so.
6) Drill all the holes using my Dremel drill press.
7) Touch up any problem areas with industrial strength Sharpie.
8) Etch.
9) Clean toner off
10) Enjoy!

Clint

On 10/3/2009 4:09 PM, Lee wrote:
>
> Thanks for the hints.
>
> Alignment hasn't really been that big of an issue - I use more/less 
> the same method you describe. The biggest issues I continue to have 
> are in getting consistent & solid transfer off of the paper onto the 
> board. More often than not its just some small part of a board that 
> doesn't seem to transfer well - I use the same pressure and 
> temperature on the iron and so haven't been able to come up with good 
> answer as to why one area doesn't transfer as well as another. When 
> doing a double sided its just that much more area for something to go 
> wrong. I've also had challenges in drilling the vias where the drill 
> bit will lift and then destroy the trace as it comes through on the 
> bottom side even if I drill into a sacrificial piece - what seems to 
> happen is that the fiberglass will chip and then come lose on the back 
> taking the trace with it. I think the major issue is that the motor on 
> my mill (which I use for drilling) tops out at 1800 rpm when run 
> manually which I think is too slow.
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Even the big pcb shops have to repair parts too


-----Original Message-----
Date: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:42 am
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer
From: "Lee" <wenger2k@...>

Bob AD5VJ,

Not to be rude, but its hard to imagine that a person that is too lazy to use google or do even a little searching through the archives of this or similar groups will be successful.

Look in the files (and on google) there are numerous step by step writeups for laser toner-transfer based pcbs - I've had the best luck printing onto Staples Photo Glossy paper and also onto used(ripped out) magazine pages.  The real challenge is that there are very few single sided designs out there so you'll either have to design your own using Eagle or some other eda tool none of which are particularly easy and or you'll need a drill press that allows you to drill the vias and in through-holes you'll need for through hole components.     Also, If you have a cnc mill its also possible to mill the traces rather than printing them - do a search for pcb-gcode which is an open source plugin to eagle that produces gcode output that can be run on mach3 (or other cnc controller software) to produce traces.  For any DIY process, getting the two sides to line up and drilling vias is sufficiently complicated and error prone to reduce the success rate, at least in my experience, to well below 50%.  

Realistically, imo, printing your own pcb's is more for fun and for understanding the process than any real money you'll save.  There are inexpensive pcb manufacturing services for small runs, most notably batchpcb run by sparkfun, which are probably worth considering if you actually need a board that works.  i've been messing with this for a couple of years and my success rate on boards is still probably less than 50% - by that I mean that the board comes out of the chemical bath and/or after routing and all traces are in the right place and work properly.  In most cases you can manually repair a bad pcb by soldering wire in to replace a bad trace but again it takes time to find and manually repair these things.  

Hth.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:

>
> I am wanting information on using a Laser printer process for making homebrew pcb's. I have a Dell 1700 laser printer and understand
> that it will work well for printed circuit board prints for board etching.
> 
> But what type and weight paper do I use, ect?
> 
> Can anyone point me to a good process description on the web that tells step by step how to use this method? 
> 
> I am also wondering with all the different choices out there, how do you know how thick the layer of copper should be on the board.
> I am finding .060 and .090, but not sure what to choose.
> 
> I think I may purchase a Radio Shack kit for etching the board. It is Radio Shack cat no. 276-1576, is there anything bad about that
> choice? 
> 
> I really dont have a lot of money to spend on mistakes, I need something that works first time out of the chute.
> 
> Bob AD5VJ
>

>I haven't done as many boards with toner transfer since I have CNC 
>and the PCB-GCode method seems at least as reliable and I can have 
>it do both the trace routing and the drilling. The software is great 
>but the approach has Its own set of challenges mostly around trying 
>to hold the board down flat enough to get consistent depth routing 
>into the board

why not use a depth limiter?

>- this is especially critical as the depth defines the width of each 
>trace since I'm using a pointed 45degree V shaped engraving bit for 
>routing. My

Cristian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lee" <wenger2k@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 11:09 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Double Sided boards - Was Laser Printer


> Thanks for the hints.
>
  I think the major issue is that the motor on my mill (which I use for 
drilling) tops out at 1800 rpm when run manually which I think is too slow.

That's far to slow. I use the fastest speed on my drill: 18,000 rpm IIRC. 
Blunt drills can cause problems with lifting pads, as well.

Leon

On 04/10/2009, at 4:10 PM, Clint Corbin wrote:

> 1) I clean my boards with Comet (the blue-green kitchen/bath cleaning

The last board I did, I only gave the copper a good scratch with some  
old sandpaper. Seemed to work quite well: I'm a long way from being  
certain, but I am working up to the belief that the toner needs a  
rough surface to get a grip on more than it needs a whole lot of  
solvents thrown at the copper. If I ever get certain, I'll sing out  
but I thought I'd share.

PG

You may find that the inkjet paper works perfectly in your laser printer. paper is paper. The main reason for the difference is that inkjets need a paper that does not allow the inks to "spread". Th laser printer does not have this problem anyway.

I could believe that Laser paper might not work so well in an inkjet printer, but not the other way round.....

Greetings from

Andy Mathison

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can use comet but then use denatured or 91pct isopropyl  alcohol to clean the soap residue off the board.
Then use a clean 3M pad to rough up the board.clean again with alcoholuntill no reside on the paper towel..




________________________________

From: Piers Goodhew <piers@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, October 4, 2009 12:11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Double Sided boards - Was Laser Printer

  

On 04/10/2009, at 4:10 PM, Clint Corbin wrote:

> 1) I clean my boards with Comet (the blue-green kitchen/bath cleaning

The last board I did, I only gave the copper a good scratch with some 
old sandpaper. Seemed to work quite well: I'm a long way from being 
certain, but I am working up to the belief that the toner needs a 
rough surface to get a grip on more than it needs a whole lot of 
solvents thrown at the copper. If I ever get certain, I'll sing out 
but I thought I'd share.

PG





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, if you read my original message the step right before touching 
toner to board was a final cleaning with denatured alcohol.  I don't use 
a 3M pad to do the final wipe, just a clean rag.

On 10/4/2009 1:53 PM, michael tenore wrote:
>
> You can use comet but then use denatured or 91pct isopropyl  alcohol 
> to clean the soap residue off the board.
> Then use a clean 3M pad to rough up the board.clean again with 
> alcoholuntill no reside on the paper towel..
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As you all know I am new to this whole process and therefore have gone to Utube and uncovered many of what seem to be good videos of
pcb manufacturing.

One which I just viewed is different in that the guy is talking about using a paper called 'Press and Peel' and his laser printer
and the rest is the same as normal paper.

This looks like a whole lot faster way of ironing on the toner to the board since you dont have the intermediate steps involved in
removing the messy paper, you still have the quenching but then the paper just peels away without all the time consuming 'finger
rubbing' and tooth brushing steps to remove the paper.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of paper and if so, was it successful or unsuccessful or cost prohibitive?

Thanks,
Bob AD5VJ

Hi there

My experience with PnP wasn't that good. This may be down to technique on my part but never the less I tried adjusting my irons temp to solve one primary problem I had. That was the whole pack used and I never found the happy medium.

This was the PnP shrinking at the edges and therefore smearing and distorting the traces in these areas. The areas that worked worked great but I couldn't get the shrinkage under control. Also as the sheets are less than A4 in size I was losing capacity to do a lot of a particular PCB So cost was an issue for me.

There are more success stories than bad so it obviously works and works well in the 'right hands' :-D

I now use HP everyday photopaper semi-gloss. Far more sheets for your money and it soaks off easily and I have 100% success every time. Plus I can fit more patterns to a sheet. I may need to spend 30 seconds with a resist pen if the odd spec comes adrift but for me it works better than I could ever get PnP to. YMMV.

regards

Fenris 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:

>
> As you all know I am new to this whole process and therefore have gone to Utube and uncovered many of what seem to be good videos of
> pcb manufacturing.
> 
> One which I just viewed is different in that the guy is talking about using a paper called 'Press and Peel' and his laser printer
> and the rest is the same as normal paper.
> 
> This looks like a whole lot faster way of ironing on the toner to the board since you dont have the intermediate steps involved in
> removing the messy paper, you still have the quenching but then the paper just peels away without all the time consuming 'finger
> rubbing' and tooth brushing steps to remove the paper.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with this type of paper and if so, was it successful or unsuccessful or cost prohibitive?
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob AD5VJ
>

Bob,  I think a lot of people have had the same luck as
Dave and some had  good luck.

I use paper from Royal Brites.  This is not very good as
Ink Jet Color Paper but good at toner transfer.

After about 5 min. of soaking in cool water it will lift off 
whole.

Look at
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=200337

150 Sheets just over $18.00.

Derward Myrick  KD5WWI

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 4:56 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Press and Peel Paper


    Hi there

  My experience with PnP wasn't that good. This may be down to technique on my part but never the less I tried adjusting my irons temp to solve one primary problem I had. That was the whole pack used and I never found the happy medium.

  This was the PnP shrinking at the edges and therefore smearing and distorting the traces in these areas. The areas that worked worked great but I couldn't get the shrinkage under control. Also as the sheets are less than A4 in size I was losing capacity to do a lot of a particular PCB So cost was an issue for me.

  There are more success stories than bad so it obviously works and works well in the 'right hands' :-D

  I now use HP everyday photopaper semi-gloss. Far more sheets for your money and it soaks off easily and I have 100% success every time. Plus I can fit more patterns to a sheet. I may need to spend 30 seconds with a resist pen if the odd spec comes adrift but for me it works better than I could ever get PnP to. YMMV.

  regards

  Fenris 

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:
  >
  > As you all know I am new to this whole process and therefore have gone to Utube and uncovered many of what seem to be good videos of
  > pcb manufacturing.
  > 
  > One which I just viewed is different in that the guy is talking about using a paper called 'Press and Peel' and his laser printer
  > and the rest is the same as normal paper.
  > 
  > This looks like a whole lot faster way of ironing on the toner to the board since you dont have the intermediate steps involved in
  > removing the messy paper, you still have the quenching but then the paper just peels away without all the time consuming 'finger
  > rubbing' and tooth brushing steps to remove the paper.
  > 
  > Does anyone have any experience with this type of paper and if so, was it successful or unsuccessful or cost prohibitive?
  > 
  > Thanks,
  > Bob AD5VJ
  >



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I went to
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle small stuff.

The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
as a double sided board.

I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but where?

Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?

Bob AD5VJ

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:39:27 -0500, you wrote:


Look at the autorouter.  Note that there are settings for the top and
bottom layer, typically _ and |.  You want to check the N/A setting on
the top layer to turn off the autorouter.  The bottom setting on the
autorouter *,|, etc. doesn't seem to matter very much in this case.

Harvey

>I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I went to
>http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
>adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle small stuff.
>
>The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
>as a double sided board.
>
>I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
>intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but where?
>
>Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
>
>Bob AD5VJ
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

You are trying to run before you can walk, learn to manually route!

Autorouters won't give decent results anyway.

ST

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:39 PM, AD5VJ  Bob <rtnmi@...> wrote:
> I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I went to
> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
> adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle small stuff.
>
> The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
> as a double sided board.
>
> I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
> intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but where?
>
> Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
>
> Bob AD5VJ
>
>

I have not used Eagle Autorouter for some years (the only one with which I have any experience other than "Smartwork"), but I found that it made a good start, particularly if there were mainly TTL or similar signals....

I used to clean it up by hand afterwards. For boards with 10 or more chips, I found this was the best way.....some boards I made had 20 or more chips, even doing the Ratsnesting by hand (no schematic) was a nightmare......

Greetings from

Andy Mathison

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not very long ago I was in same situation as you.  I needed single sided
boards.  Beyond that, sometimes you need specific traces on specific side of
board.  So how is that done?  Read and experiment with layers and lines.
All objects, including traces have properties and layer is one of those
properties.  In general, you can change properties at will, and you can move
traces around at will.  For my single side boards I started  with the rat's
nest and kept moving things around I had as few lines as possible crossing
each other.  Using that positioning as a guide I then started introducing
traces until I was satisfied.  Really is fun!  A lot like a labyrinth
puzzle.
Autorouting created a mess, especially when you start to edit the autorouted
traces, because you now have to start paying attention to signal id
number's, etc being altered

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>wrote:

>
>
> You are trying to run before you can walk, learn to manually route!
>
> Autorouters won't give decent results anyway.
>
> ST
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:39 PM, AD5VJ Bob <rtnmi@...<rtnmi%40sbcglobal.net>>
> wrote:
> > I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I
> went to
> > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and
> did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
> > adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle
> small stuff.
> >
> > The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this
> board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
> > as a double sided board.
> >
> > I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I
> want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
> > intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but
> where?
> >
> > Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
> >
> > Bob AD5VJ
> >
> >
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm sure glad to hear that I'm not the only person who doesn't like auto-routing.  It just doesn't go where I want, and when I try to clean up the rat's nest of traces it seems to take longer than manually routing from the start.

73 de Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Barry Demers <sdad@...> wrote:

>
> Not very long ago I was in same situation as you.  I needed single sided
> boards.  Beyond that, sometimes you need specific traces on specific side of
> board.  So how is that done?  Read and experiment with layers and lines.
> All objects, including traces have properties and layer is one of those
> properties.  In general, you can change properties at will, and you can move
> traces around at will.  For my single side boards I started  with the rat's
> nest and kept moving things around I had as few lines as possible crossing
> each other.  Using that positioning as a guide I then started introducing
> traces until I was satisfied.  Really is fun!  A lot like a labyrinth
> puzzle.
> Autorouting created a mess, especially when you start to edit the autorouted
> traces, because you now have to start paying attention to signal id
> number's, etc being altered
> 
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > You are trying to run before you can walk, learn to manually route!
> >
> > Autorouters won't give decent results anyway.
> >
> > ST
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:39 PM, AD5VJ Bob <rtnmi@...<rtnmi%40sbcglobal.net>>
> > wrote:
> > > I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I
> > went to
> > > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and
> > did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
> > > adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle
> > small stuff.
> > >
> > > The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this
> > board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
> > > as a double sided board.
> > >
> > > I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I
> > want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
> > > intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but
> > where?
> > >
> > > Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
> > >
> > > Bob AD5VJ
> > >
> > >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thank you,
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Yes that's the way to go, placement is everything.

Personally, I find that roughly one third of the time is taken up with
placement, one third with routing of 95% of the traces, and one third
with the remaining 5% of traces.

Placement could be speeded up greatly if the layout software initially
used the same arrangement as schematic (because generally components
that are close together on the schematic end up close together on the
PCB). The Altium designer web demo says it can do this, but so far the
feature eludes me in the trial version I have installed (like most
other functions of altium designer). Anyway, with more effort you can
do this manually in any software, shifting components around and
together into functional groups, and then shifting the individual
groups around until they make sense. Once that is done I start pulling
everything back into the board outline one functional group after the
other. Only then I start routing.

It is really a big advantage to have two monitors and the schematic on
the second for this work, especially if the software supports cross
probe highlighting the component you shift around.

It is also a very big help for me to have colored ratsnest lines,
otherwise the common power and ground make it hard to see which
components belong together.

There are two kinds of people, the ones that think every PCB is a
piece of art, and will never be satisfied with the work of an
autorouter. And the other kind who don't care about the look of the
board as long as it works electrically. There is no right and wrong,
but personally don't respect any work done without care and attention
to detail.



ST

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Barry Demers <sdad@...> wrote:
> For my single side boards I started  with the rat's
> nest and kept moving things around I had as few lines as possible crossing
> each other.  Using that positioning as a guide I then started introducing
> traces until I was satisfied.  Really is fun!  A lot like a labyrinth
> puzzle.

I'm sure it also depends on the software. I haven't tried autorouters
often because routing effort is really minimal once the placement is
just right, and it gives me the chance to sanity check every
connection. I haven't seen an autorouter that can change placement
while routing, not sure if they exist and you probably would have to
sell your soul to the devil in exchange. Every pre-routing auto-placer
I have tried so far (not many) was just ridiculous.

Anyway, usually I found every autorouted result completely
unacceptable, endless square cornered traces, lotsa vias, no sensible
approach to differing trace width, etc..

What really made me look astonished was when I tried the "pull tight"
function in Pulsonix. This could straighten out really messy routing
into nice 45° rules to a state where I could probably tolerate it.
Maybe combined with this function an autorouter could work. But then
that still leaves you with placement and some cleanup and it's likely
no faster than routing manually.

Also some software is really good at cleaning up traces by hand
(shoving them around, mitering corners and such), while other software
makes it more difficult. With eagle I frequently find myself in a
situation where it is quicker to just rip up and re-route. This makes
it rather pointless to use an autorouter if you only rip it all up
again one by one anyway.

ST

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 4:20 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
> I'm sure glad to hear that I'm not the only person who doesn't like auto-routing.  It just doesn't go where I want, and when I try to clean up the rat's nest of traces it seems to take longer than manually routing from the start.
>
> 73 de Ken H

Just to throw my 2p in. I use PCB wizard and I only used the auto routing once. I had 12 wire links and most of them spanned either the width or the length of the board. It seems universal that the autoroute facility is 'pants'. I did the board by hand and ended up with 4 links all 8mm long...... The PCB was a whole lot smaller and better laid out to :-D

Do it by hand whatever software you use!

regards

Fenris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
> I'm sure glad to hear that I'm not the only person who doesn't like auto-routing.  It just doesn't go where I want, and when I try to clean up the rat's nest of traces it seems to take longer than manually routing from the start.
> 
> 73 de Ken H>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Barry Demers <sdad@> wrote:
> >
> > Not very long ago I was in same situation as you.  I needed single sided
> > boards.  Beyond that, sometimes you need specific traces on specific side of
> > board.  So how is that done?  Read and experiment with layers and lines.
> > All objects, including traces have properties and layer is one of those
> > properties.  In general, you can change properties at will, and you can move
> > traces around at will.  For my single side boards I started  with the rat's
> > nest and kept moving things around I had as few lines as possible crossing
> > each other.  Using that positioning as a guide I then started introducing
> > traces until I was satisfied.  Really is fun!  A lot like a labyrinth
> > puzzle.
> > Autorouting created a mess, especially when you start to edit the autorouted
> > traces, because you now have to start paying attention to signal id
> > number's, etc being altered
> > 
> > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@>wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > > You are trying to run before you can walk, learn to manually route!
> > >
> > > Autorouters won't give decent results anyway.
> > >
> > > ST
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:39 PM, AD5VJ Bob <rtnmi@<rtnmi%40sbcglobal.net>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I
> > > went to
> > > > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and
> > > did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
> > > > adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle
> > > small stuff.
> > > >
> > > > The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this
> > > board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
> > > > as a double sided board.
> > > >
> > > > I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I
> > > want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
> > > > intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but
> > > where?
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
> > > >
> > > > Bob AD5VJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Thank you,
> > 
> > Barry
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Been laying out circuits for 40 years.  As a general statement, autorouting
doesn't take on much meaning to me until circuit complexity and/or component
positions are dominant. ( Retired now, doing mostly analog, data acquisition
just for fun) Even then, recognize that autorouting is only a tool toward a
solution, it is not the solution itself.  Before autorouting, a number of
tricks or procedures were utilized to expidite board layout. (increase
number of layers, run horiz on 1 layer vert on another, power bus bars,
etc)  With traces being used for more than just signal delivery these days
(delay lines, etc) autorouting becomes a study all by itself.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:20 AM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
> I'm sure glad to hear that I'm not the only person who doesn't like
> auto-routing. It just doesn't go where I want, and when I try to clean up
> the rat's nest of traces it seems to take longer than manually routing from
> the start.
>
> 73 de Ken H>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Barry Demers <sdad@...> wrote:
> >
> > Not very long ago I was in same situation as you. I needed single sided
> > boards. Beyond that, sometimes you need specific traces on specific side
> of
> > board. So how is that done? Read and experiment with layers and lines.
> > All objects, including traces have properties and layer is one of those
> > properties. In general, you can change properties at will, and you can
> move
> > traces around at will. For my single side boards I started with the rat's
> > nest and kept moving things around I had as few lines as possible
> crossing
> > each other. Using that positioning as a guide I then started introducing
> > traces until I was satisfied. Really is fun! A lot like a labyrinth
> > puzzle.
> > Autorouting created a mess, especially when you start to edit the
> autorouted
> > traces, because you now have to start paying attention to signal id
> > number's, etc being altered
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@
> ...>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are trying to run before you can walk, learn to manually route!
> > >
> > > Autorouters won't give decent results anyway.
> > >
> > > ST
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 9:39 PM, AD5VJ Bob <rtnmi@...<rtnmi%
> 40sbcglobal.net>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first
> board. I
> > > went to
> > > > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109and
> > > did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
> > > > adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle
> > > small stuff.
> > > >
> > > > The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do
> this
> > > board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
> > > > as a double sided board.
> > > >
> > > > I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell
> eagle I
> > > want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
> > > > intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this,
> but
> > > where?
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
> > > >
> > > > Bob AD5VJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 3:20 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using Eagle


> I'm sure glad to hear that I'm not the only person who doesn't like 
> auto-routing.  It just doesn't go where I want, and when I try to clean up 
> the rat's nest of traces it seems to take longer than manually routing 
> from the start.

It depends on the autorouter, the Eagle one is rubbish!

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Hi everyone:

Thanks for the responses. 

I am finding that the Autorouter is just as everyone has described, virtually useless. I have "ripped" up my first try and am about
to embark on a second with your suggestions in mind. 

I really appreciate your advice and counsel on this.

For 15 years I worked at a place in San Antonio, Texas named Southwest Research Institute. This was prior 1989 when I moved on from
there. As one of my responsibilities, I used to sit in a secure room at a light table a big part of the day and route PC's using
film paper and "sticky tape". Then we would each do the negatives, order production and test our own boards.

Sometimes it was done from just an engineering sketch that I had to make into a drawing out of using a drafting table and straight
edge, ect and sometimes from a complete schematic drawing (depending on the engineer). 

We had rules then about spacing's, widths, angles, donut sizes, ect. I remember most of them and they seem to have been implemented
in the software rules as well. 

But the fun of it was figuring out the routing and positioning, and making it all work, at least when you were allowed to. Sometimes
the Senior Engineer would tell you where certain parts had to be placed, along with ground planes, then you had to make the rest of
the board work. That made things a bit tough at times.

We did single, and multiple layer boards. Then we would take the film to the PC lab where they did the actual building of the boards
according to our specifications we asked for on the order sheet.

But using the applications are a lot different. 

LOL at first it almost seemed it was going to be easier to find a light table somewhere and some tape. But I will hang in there and
should be able to accomplish the task of learning the software especially with the help you guys are offering.

Again, thanks very much.

Bob AD5VJ

Then you will have no problem at all routing the board manually.
You will find it much easier to change stuff in software, and even
eagle should compare favourably to the light table work.

I still keep a few rolls of that tape and rub-on pads in a box,
although I never used it myself.

ST

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:52 PM, AD5VJ  Bob <rtnmi@...> wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> Thanks for the responses.
>
> I am finding that the Autorouter is just as everyone has described, virtually useless. I have "ripped" up my first try and am about
> to embark on a second with your suggestions in mind.
>
> I really appreciate your advice and counsel on this.
>
> For 15 years I worked at a place in San Antonio, Texas named Southwest Research Institute. This was prior 1989 when I moved on from
> there. As one of my responsibilities, I used to sit in a secure room at a light table a big part of the day and route PC's using
> film paper and "sticky tape". Then we would each do the negatives, order production and test our own boards.
>
> Sometimes it was done from just an engineering sketch that I had to make into a drawing out of using a drafting table and straight
> edge, ect and sometimes from a complete schematic drawing (depending on the engineer).
>
> We had rules then about spacing's, widths, angles, donut sizes, ect. I remember most of them and they seem to have been implemented
> in the software rules as well.
>
> But the fun of it was figuring out the routing and positioning, and making it all work, at least when you were allowed to. Sometimes
> the Senior Engineer would tell you where certain parts had to be placed, along with ground planes, then you had to make the rest of
> the board work. That made things a bit tough at times.
>
> We did single, and multiple layer boards. Then we would take the film to the PC lab where they did the actual building of the boards
> according to our specifications we asked for on the order sheet.
>
> But using the applications are a lot different.
>
> LOL at first it almost seemed it was going to be easier to find a light table somewhere and some tape. But I will hang in there and
> should be able to accomplish the task of learning the software especially with the help you guys are offering.
>
> Again, thanks very much.
>
> Bob AD5VJ
>

I use Eagle.
first I autoroute the power nets, then manually straighten, relocate and widen the power lines. move chips and caps around to optimize the board. this can take several iterations.
next I autoroute the large nets, those with many points per signal like clocks and so; I clear and straighten them by hand.
last I autoroute everything. this checks for errors in previous steps and fills in all those simple (??) two point traces.
as always there are still some hard to get through signals.

Just select N/A for the top and try it again. A lot of people here really hate auto routing and don't like Eagle but I have not had problems with it at all. You do have to spend some time setting up the rules and there are tricks that help like route single side first the add the 2nd side and route again or build your schematic with critical parts first, auto route then add the rest of the parts and again auto route. Parts placement and orientation  had a lot to do with the success. I do clean things up after a auto route but I have great luck auto routing and wont go back to the manual way if I can help it. Plus the price is right. 
Bill N7OQ 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "AD5VJ  Bob" <rtnmi@...> wrote:

>
> I downloaded and am trying to use Eagle CAD program for my first board. I went to
> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=109 and did the little tutorial they have there for a serial to USB
> adapter since it looked pretty simple and the free Eagle will handle small stuff.
> 
> The problem I am having is in the board layout. I am wanting to do this board as a single sided board and eagle keeps auto routing
> as a double sided board.
> 
> I have looked into the help file and can not find out how to tell eagle I want a single sided board layout. It doesn't seem to be to
> intuitive so I am thinking there is a setting somewhere to do this, but where?
> 
> Does anyone use Eagle who can help me out with this?
> 
> Bob AD5VJ
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leon Heller" <leon355@...> wrote:
> 
> It depends on the autorouter, the Eagle one is rubbish!
> 

Which autorouter(s) are not rubbish? (I hope that doesn't sound like I'm trying to be sarcastic -- I really am asking for information!)

I very rarely see Kicad mentioned here -- is anyone else besides me using it? I haven't used anything else, so I don't know how it compares ... but the things many of you say about Eagle and others makes me think it must be pretty much comparable, both in capabilities and in limitations.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "awakephd" <a_wake@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:35 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using Eagle


>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leon Heller" <leon355@...> wrote:
>>
>> It depends on the autorouter, the Eagle one is rubbish!
>>
>
> Which autorouter(s) are not rubbish? (I hope that doesn't sound like I'm 
> trying to be sarcastic -- I really am asking for information!)
>

The Pulsonix autorouter (it's actually Electra) is pretty good. Electra can 
be used with Eagle, and most other PCB packages.

Leon

You mentioned Kicad.  I am unfamiliar with this software, but certainly
would like to learn a bit more.  I have the website(s), but how about actual
experience with this app?  It appears that some of the limitations imposed
on us by the Eagle free version have been lifted with Kicad: to verify is
there a board size limit? Can I have multiple page diagrams?  Can I import
my sch and brd files (even if somewhat convoluted?  How about the component
objects?  can I bring in any of those?  Please understand that I refer to
ability, not desirability.  Now the biggy, how would you compare the
easy/functionality of Kicad vs that of Eagle?

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:35 AM, awakephd <a_wake@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "leon Heller" <leon355@...> wrote:
> >
> > It depends on the autorouter, the Eagle one is rubbish!
> >
>
> Which autorouter(s) are not rubbish? (I hope that doesn't sound like I'm
> trying to be sarcastic -- I really am asking for information!)
>
> I very rarely see Kicad mentioned here -- is anyone else besides me using
> it? I haven't used anything else, so I don't know how it compares ... but
> the things many of you say about Eagle and others makes me think it must be
> pretty much comparable, both in capabilities and in limitations.
>
>  
>



-- 
Thank you,

Barry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doesn't Electra cost a lot of money?

ST

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 6:45 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

> The Pulsonix autorouter (it's actually Electra) is pretty good. Electra can
> be used with Eagle, and most other PCB packages.
>
> Leon
>
>
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using Eagle


> Doesn't Electra cost a lot of money?

It'll pay for itself very quickly in terms of time saved, with complicated 
designs.

Leon

Savings is always in the eye of the beholder.
If you are being paid, or can bill, or some way of defining
what your 'time' is worth, yes, the equation is easy to figure
out.  If it is a hobby or a no-money-startup, or you can't
get the 'boss' to spring for it, if it costs any
money it is out of the budget.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On the hobby. ... that might not be a good one.  Some hobbyists
spend lots on their tools, but their cost/benefit ratio is not the
same as commercial users.
><> ... Jack


On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Jack <jack@...> wrote:

> Savings is always in the eye of the beholder.
> If you are being paid, or can bill, or some way of defining
> what your 'time' is worth, yes, the equation is easy to figure
> out.  If it is a hobby or a no-money-startup, or you can't
> get the 'boss' to spring for it, if it costs any
> money it is out of the budget.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barry,

There do not appear to be any limitations at all -- board size, number of pins, etc. can be as much / as big as you want. When you say multiple page diagrams, I assume you mean for the schematic? If so, then yes, you can have multiple pages and interconnect them as appropriate.

Unfortunately, I don't know about importing the sch and brd files. I do know that it can produce more than one format of netlist, and apparently it is possible to use component files from some other programs. It is relatively easy to make new components. There are a fair number of component libraries out on the web, though I've only used one or two.

I have never used Eagle -- in fact, I've never used anything other than Kicad -- so I can't compare first-hand. From what I've read here, I have the feeling that layout, at least, is similar. Kicad is a modular program -- ie, the schematic layout, component selection, and board layout are three separate modules. You create a project file that contains pointers to all the pieces that are generated for a single project, and lets you move from module to module. One thing that apparently is different about Kicad compared to some programs is that it separates the logical (schematic) library from the physical (layout) library. The idea is that you design your schematic using, say, an LM339. Then in a separate module you associate that part with the package -- allowing you to change from a DIP to an SMD without changing the schematic.

There are just a couple of minor quirks that I've had to learn. One is that there are two output commands for producing diagrams, Print and Plot. In the schematic module, either works fine. But in the board layout module, if you try to Print your layout graphics, the results will come out as sort of an approximation -- at least this is true with the Linux version. However, you can Plot the layout and it comes out perfectly. You can plot to HPGL, Gerber, and Postscript; I have only tried plotting to Postscript, which Linux understands natively. Under Windows, you could convert the postscript to a PDF. Alternately, there is additionally a Gerber Viewer module, but I've not tried that.

The other minor quirk is that some of the commands/dialogs are accessible only through the toolbar. In particular, the dialog for setting the page size is not accessible through the menu, but only through a toolbar button.

Given the fact that this was my first exposure to schematic & layout software, I would have to say that it was relatively easy to learn. There are some decent tutorials on the web, and the Help files are pretty helpful. It is available for multiple platforms (Windows and Linux -- maybe others??), and above all the price is right.

I hope this is helpful; I'll certainly be glad to do my best to answer other questions. Maybe, hopefully, someone with experience both with Kicad and with other programs will also chime in.

Andy

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Barry Demers <sdad@...> wrote:

>
> You mentioned Kicad.  I am unfamiliar with this software, but certainly
> would like to learn a bit more.  I have the website(s), but how about actual
> experience with this app?  It appears that some of the limitations imposed
> on us by the Eagle free version have been lifted with Kicad: to verify is
> there a board size limit? Can I have multiple page diagrams?  Can I import
> my sch and brd files (even if somewhat convoluted?  How about the component
> objects?  can I bring in any of those?  Please understand that I refer to
> ability, not desirability.  Now the biggy, how would you compare the
> easy/functionality of Kicad vs that of Eagle?
> 
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:35 AM, awakephd <a_wake@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "leon Heller" <leon355@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It depends on the autorouter, the Eagle one is rubbish!
> > >
> >
> > Which autorouter(s) are not rubbish? (I hope that doesn't sound like I'm
> > trying to be sarcastic -- I really am asking for information!)
> >
> > I very rarely see Kicad mentioned here -- is anyone else besides me using
> > it? I haven't used anything else, so I don't know how it compares ... but
> > the things many of you say about Eagle and others makes me think it must be
> > pretty much comparable, both in capabilities and in limitations.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thank you,
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>