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etched 5/5 results

etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by DJ Delorie

I added the results of a 5/5 etch to my inket page:

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/inkjet/

I decided to be cautious this time.  As soon as the big blank spots
started vanishing, I stopped the etch, rinsed the board, and inspected
the smallest traces under a microscope.  They were etched!  They
looked unetched with the magnifier.  Took only 25 minutes for 1/2oz
copper.

Based on these results, I now know to reduce my inked edges by about a
mil to get the copper dimensions to match the design, as the copper
was about 2 mil thinner than planned.  I'm guessing the comb pattern
on the edges from the inkjet (which happen to be about a mil wide :)
cuts the UV down too much to get a full cure.  Might also be causing
the ragged edges at this scale.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by Bertho Boman

Your system is getting better and better!

I am curious though why the comb pattern is only on one side.  Did you
figure out why?
Bertho
=========================================
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From:  DJ Delorie   Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 16:32

I added the results of a 5/5 etch to my inket page:

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/inkjet/

I decided to be cautious this time. As soon as the big blank spots
started vanishing, I stopped the etch, rinsed the board, and inspected
the smallest traces under a microscope. They were etched! They
looked unetched with the magnifier. Took only 25 minutes for 1/2oz
copper.

Based on these results, I now know to reduce my inked edges by about a
mil to get the copper dimensions to match the design, as the copper
was about 2 mil thinner than planned. I'm guessing the comb pattern
on the edges from the inkjet (which happen to be about a mil wide :)
cuts the UV down too much to get a full cure. Might also be causing

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by DJ Delorie

"Bertho Boman" <boman01@...> writes:
> Your system is getting better and better!

Thanks!

> I am curious though why the comb pattern is only on one side.  Did
> you figure out why?

It seems to be related to paper feed through the printer.  I mean,
moving a sheet of paper with 1/2880" accuracy isn't easy.  The weaving
algorithms, which are designed to hide these inaccuracies, means that
half the dots are printed with the top jets on the printer, and later
the other half are printed with the bottom jets.  Even accumulated
error in paper motion is enough to cause the later passes to be off.
If, for example, 1/4 of the pixels are drawn after the paper is "off",
you'll see those ink drops on the clear background, but it's far less
likely to see a clear spot in a dark background - drop overlap hides
the missing pixels.

The comb doesn't happen in the other orientation because the print
head can be positioned more accurately (and repeatedly) than the paper
can.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by John Coppens

On 04 Jul 2008 17:15:12 -0400
DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

> The comb doesn't happen in the other orientation because the print
> head can be positioned more accurately (and repeatedly) than the paper
> can.

Couldn't the comb indicate that the paper thickness is incorrect? Maybe
slightly thinner/thicker paper would cause the error to distribute on both
sides?

John

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by Stefan Trethan

I haven't followed the discussion, but i assume the printer
calibration settings were tweaked already? There is a tool for epson
printers to adjust all kinds of settings. It was only meant to go to
service centers, but can be found on the web.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 7/4/08, John Coppens <john@...> wrote:
> On 04 Jul 2008 17:15:12 -0400
>
> DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
>  > The comb doesn't happen in the other orientation because the print
>  > head can be positioned more accurately (and repeatedly) than the paper
>  > can.
>
>
> Couldn't the comb indicate that the paper thickness is incorrect? Maybe
>  slightly thinner/thicker paper would cause the error to distribute on both
>  sides?
>
>
>  John
>
>
>  ------------------------------------
>
>  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by DJ Delorie

John Coppens <john@...> writes:
> Couldn't the comb indicate that the paper thickness is incorrect?
> Maybe slightly thinner/thicker paper would cause the error to
> distribute on both sides?

I don't think so.  The pattern is regular, and depends on where on the
image it is, and doesn't correspond to my own accuracy tests I did
last week or so.  It also varies from edge to edge, which is
consistent with the weave algorithm.

It also only happens in the paper feed direction (edges perpendicular
to paper motion direction).  The edges in the print head direction are
mostly OK, aside from minor variations due to jet imprecision.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-04 by John Coppens

On 04 Jul 2008 17:57:16 -0400
DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

> > Couldn't the comb indicate that the paper thickness is incorrect?
> > Maybe slightly thinner/thicker paper would cause the error to
> > distribute on both sides?
> 
> It also only happens in the paper feed direction (edges perpendicular
> to paper motion direction).  The edges in the print head direction are
> mostly OK, aside from minor variations due to jet imprecision.

That's what I meant - if the paper is just slightly thicker, the paper
would advance (microscopically) faster. Even when the paper is fed flatly
to the jets, the tracking roll would still feed it slight faster.

John

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-05 by DJ Delorie

John Coppens <john@...> writes:
> That's what I meant - if the paper is just slightly thicker, the
> paper would advance (microscopically) faster. Even when the paper is
> fed flatly to the jets, the tracking roll would still feed it slight
> faster.

Hmmm... Hadn't thought of it that way.  Of course, since I'm using
special paper (Silkjet or Jetstar at the moment), my options are
limited.  Neither have I tried fiddling with the paper controls in the
printer (beyond specifying the paper type in gimp) nor trying to
compensate for it in software.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-06 by DJ Delorie

DJ Delorie <dj@...> writes:
> I added the results of a 5/5 etch to my inket page:
> 
> http://www.delorie.com/pcb/inkjet/

I added a photo of the finished board.  I watched the etch more
carefully this time.  As it got nearer to "done", I'd take it out,
rinse and dry it, and put it under the microscope to see how it was
doing.  Thus, I was able to get a near-ideal etch time, as well as
adjust the position in the tank to try to even out the overall etch.

I did manage to mangle one of the vias, but then again, those are 13
mil holes with only 6 mil annulus, and I got two out of three ;-)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-06 by Stefan Trethan

Might be better to drill next to the vias and bend the wire over, this
way the drill won't rip the copper off.

Generally i'd rather not push the limits of reliable and practical
manufacturing so far, if the goal just was a useful PCB. If it's also
a study into how fine one might go that's another issue.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 05 Jul 2008 22:37:39 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
>  DJ Delorie <dj@...> writes:
>  > I added the results of a 5/5 etch to my inket page:
>  >
>  > http://www.delorie.com/pcb/inkjet/
>
>
> I added a photo of the finished board.  I watched the etch more
>  carefully this time.  As it got nearer to "done", I'd take it out,
>  rinse and dry it, and put it under the microscope to see how it was
>  doing.  Thus, I was able to get a near-ideal etch time, as well as
>  adjust the position in the tank to try to even out the overall etch.
>
>  I did manage to mangle one of the vias, but then again, those are 13
>  mil holes with only 6 mil annulus, and I got two out of three ;-)
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-06 by DJ Delorie

"Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> Might be better to drill next to the vias and bend the wire over,
> this way the drill won't rip the copper off.

I'll probably bend the wire over anyway, and solder it to the trace.
I've been doing that on my other boards recently and it seems to go
almost as quick as my other via method.

The real problem is that I'm only using a dremel tool, so the runout
in the bit is almost as much as the annulus size!

> Generally i'd rather not push the limits of reliable and practical
> manufacturing so far, if the goal just was a useful PCB. If it's
> also a study into how fine one might go that's another issue.

The goal of this particular board *is* to push the limits.  The
circuit isn't useful at all.  If it even works, it just makes a light
blink (er, "throb").  This is a sequel to my soldering challenge
board[1] that uses CSP and sot-535 chips (the last one used tvsop-14
and us-8).  The 6/6/13 rules are within the limits of prototype fabs.
Also, if I can figure out my process for 5/5 rules, I know that larger
rules will be reliable.

[1] http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-06 by Myc Holmes

"The real problem is that I'm only using a dremel tool, so the runout
in the bit is almost as much as the annulus size!"

The pads are not designed for homebrew pcb efforts, where drilling can be a
little off. The easiest fix is to increase the size of the annualar rings.
this increse also helps with preventsing the pads from lifting off the board
during soldering.

When you are routing a trace between 2 pads on a an IC then you can just
reduce the size of these pads for clearance.

Works for me.  I am not looking for a production pcb clone, but rather a
successful design and etch.

Myc


> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-06 by Stefan Trethan

The burrs seemed a bit rough, but it's hard to judge with
magnification sometimes.
I found the proxxon tools have better runout, probably in part due to
the precision collets. The power of the small cheap 12V tools is more
than plenty for PCB drills.

Ideal drilling results can only be achieved with backing sheet (and
cover sheet), not that i bother with the size rules i use, but that's
what i'm told anyway.

If you are going to solder via-wire to the traces it seems a good idea
to widen the first couple mm of trace, to get a solid joint.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 06 Jul 2008 09:36:35 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

>  The real problem is that I'm only using a dremel tool, so the runout
>  in the bit is almost as much as the annulus size!
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-06 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results


> The burrs seemed a bit rough, but it's hard to judge with
> magnification sometimes.
> I found the proxxon tools have better runout, probably in part due to
> the precision collets. The power of the small cheap 12V tools is more
> than plenty for PCB drills.
>
> Ideal drilling results can only be achieved with backing sheet (and
> cover sheet), not that i bother with the size rules i use, but that's
> what i'm told anyway.
>
> If you are going to solder via-wire to the traces it seems a good idea
> to widen the first couple mm of trace, to get a solid joint.

I often use teardrops on my home-made boards. They make the joints more 
reliable, especially for vias.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-07 by fana cute

teardrop? i dont understand what is this? where i can get it 

--- On Sun, 7/6/08, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Leon <leon355@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 7:11 AM










    
            ----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@ gmx.at>

To: <Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com>

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:00 PM

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results



> The burrs seemed a bit rough, but it's hard to judge with

> magnification sometimes.

> I found the proxxon tools have better runout, probably in part due to

> the precision collets. The power of the small cheap 12V tools is more

> than plenty for PCB drills.

>

> Ideal drilling results can only be achieved with backing sheet (and

> cover sheet), not that i bother with the size rules i use, but that's

> what i'm told anyway.

>

> If you are going to solder via-wire to the traces it seems a good idea

> to widen the first couple mm of trace, to get a solid joint.



I often use teardrops on my home-made boards. They make the joints more 

reliable, especially for vias.



Leon




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-07 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "fana cute" <fan_nastelroy@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results


> teardrop? i dont understand what is this? where i can get it

Teardrops are an option with some PCB packages for connecting tracks to 
pads. They are shaped like teardrops and provide additional copper at the 
junctions. They are mainly used on single-sided boards and increase the 
reliablity of the solder joints.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-07 by DJ Delorie

Teardrops, named for their shape, put extra copper at the intersection
of traces and pads.  The idea is to ensure an electrical connection
between the trace and the pad by avoiding disconnects due to drill
misalignment, etching issues, or the mechanical fragility of the
inside corner (the case that actually bit me).

I have pictures of the teardrops I use here:

        http://www.delorie.com/pcb/teardrops/

and boards built with them:

        http://www.delorie.com/electronics/usb-gpio/usb-gpio-pp.pdf
        http://www.delorie.com/electronics/r8c-27-adapter/r8c27-dip600-pcb.png

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-07 by Herbert E. Plett

--- On Mon, 7/7/08, fana cute <fan_nastelroy@...> wrote:

> teardrop? i dont understand what is this? where i can get it
> 

just grip the soldering iron from the sharp end... you will get plenty.....


OK, just kiding :=)

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-07 by Bertho Boman

Herbert,
That is the funniest in a long time!!!!!!!!
Bertho
===================================


From: Herbert E. Plett   Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:37

--- On Mon, 7/7/08, fana cute <fan_nastelroy@...> wrote:

> teardrop? i dont understand what is this? where i can get it
> 


Just grip the soldering iron from the sharp end... you will get plenty.....

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by fana cute

I've tried to make my own PCB with glossy paper, it work good with 15 mils track,
but i dont know the minimum track that work well with this method?


Fana 




	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by DJ Delorie

fana cute <fan_nastelroy@...> writes:
> I've tried to make my own PCB with glossy paper, it work good with
> 15 mils track, but i dont know the minimum track that work well with
> this method?

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/

Look under "Goodies" for the bloat feature's sample circuit board.  It
has samples from 12 mil down.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by fana cute

oke thanks djelorie, it works at 12 mils track, may i ask question again, have you tried with 8 or 6 mils with same methode? how the result?

--- On Tue, 7/8/08, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:07 AM










    
            

fana cute <fan_nastelroy@ yahoo.com> writes:

> I've tried to make my own PCB with glossy paper, it work good with

> 15 mils track, but i dont know the minimum track that work well with

> this method?



http://www.delorie. com/pcb/



Look under "Goodies" for the bloat feature's sample circuit board.  It

has samples from 12 mil down.


      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by Dylan Smith

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Bertho Boman wrote:

> Herbert,
> That is the funniest in a long time!!!!!!!!

Don't laugh, I've done it. Well, I was 17 at the time, didn't have a stand
for the soldering iron so used to hook it to the radiator beside me. I'd
pick the soldering iron up off the radiator without looking.

One day I grabbed the wrong end...

I got a proper stand after that.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by Dylan Smith

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, fana cute wrote:

> oke thanks djelorie, it works at 12 mils track, may i ask question
> again, have you tried with 8 or 6 mils with same methode? how the
> result?

I've done 8 mil tracks/spacing (actually, I think it was 7.6 mil or
thereabouts, it was for an LQFP with 0.4mm pin pitch) using laser toner
transfer and inkjet paper. Took me a couple of goes to find the type of
paper that would work best (transfer properly without smearing during
ironing).

You just have to experiment a bit and find out what works best for you
with the paper you can get locally. I use Tesco's Value inkjet paper
(which is cheap and seems to do a reasonable job).

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by fana cute

I've done with 8 mil track, good result after ironing, but some of track are disappear after etching...i etched in feric clorid at 70 C, almost 5 minute..
By the way what do you think about this method? are this method match if i want to sell my product(PCB) to mass market ? with the great number?
--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Dylan Smith <dyls@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Dylan Smith <dyls@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 1:57 AM










    
            On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, fana cute wrote:



> oke thanks djelorie, it works at 12 mils track, may i ask question

> again, have you tried with 8 or 6 mils with same methode? how the

> result?



I've done 8 mil tracks/spacing (actually, I think it was 7.6 mil or

thereabouts, it was for an LQFP with 0.4mm pin pitch) using laser toner

transfer and inkjet paper. Took me a couple of goes to find the type of

paper that would work best (transfer properly without smearing during

ironing).



You just have to experiment a bit and find out what works best for you

with the paper you can get locally. I use Tesco's Value inkjet paper

(which is cheap and seems to do a reasonable job).




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Dylan Smith" <dyls@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results


> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Bertho Boman wrote:
>
>> Herbert,
>> That is the funniest in a long time!!!!!!!!
>
> Don't laugh, I've done it. Well, I was 17 at the time, didn't have a stand
> for the soldering iron so used to hook it to the radiator beside me. I'd
> pick the soldering iron up off the radiator without looking.
>
> One day I grabbed the wrong end...
>
> I got a proper stand after that.

My Metcal has very easy to change cartridges, they just pull out. A special 
heat-resistant pad is provided that attaches to the cable but I forgot to 
use it once and tried to remove the cartridge just after I'd switched the 
unit off. Ouch!

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by Dylan Smith

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, fana cute wrote:

>
> I've done with 8 mil track, good result after ironing, but some of track
> are disappear after etching...i etched in feric clorid at 70 C, almost 5
> minute.. By the way what do you think about this method? are this method
> match if i want to sell my product(PCB) to mass market ? with the great
> number?

The method's great for one-offs or perhaps producing a couple of PCBs. I
wouldn't dream of using it for more than that - it's just too
time consuming, and sometimes I have to fix the odd broken track due to a
pin hole.

If you're wanting to make a board in quantity, it's best to use a
commercial PCB maker. I've used Olimex for doing two-off Eurocard sized
boards (double sided), the results were good, and I used PCB Cart to make
10 4-layer boards - their prices were very good, the boards were
electrically tested, and the quality is excellent. People I know have used
PCB Train, and have lots of good things to say about them - they also do
include electrical testing on boards of 4 layers and more.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by DJ Delorie

fana cute <fan_nastelroy@...> writes:
> oke thanks djdelorie, it works at 12 mils track, may i ask question
> again, have you tried with 8 or 6 mils with same methode? how the
> result?

With the pulsar paper and green film (which protects against pinholes
and other toner-related problems), I've managed 6.7 mil traces (four
pixels wide on my printer) with some success (like 50%, so I always
put two or more of each board on the panel, to get one good one).  8.3
usually works OK but still with some risk of errors.  You have to keep
in mind the size of your laser pixels - mine are 1.33 mils across, so
I use multiples of that to ensure that all my traces and spaces are
consistent (if you choose 6 mil, some are 6.7 and others are 5).

With the inkjet and photomask, it looks like 6 will be reliable as
long as I'm careful about mask defects (dust, bubbles) and the etching
process (i.e. 6 mil traces are easy, 6 mil space might be an issue,
5/7 might be more reliable than 6/6).

[Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by Larry Battraw

On 08 Jul 2008 11:29:40 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> With the inkjet and photomask, it looks like 6 will be reliable as
> long as I'm careful about mask defects (dust, bubbles) and the etching
> process (i.e. 6 mil traces are easy, 6 mil space might be an issue,
> 5/7 might be more reliable than 6/6).

I had a few questions I've been meaning to ask ever since I saw your
incredible inkjet results.  Do you have a detailed description of your
process, end-to-end?
Specifically:

How do you make your transparencies?  You mentioned you use Silkjet
but what type of printer do you use at what DPI?  Do you use the
manufacturer's ink or refilled/third-party ink?  I've used Apollo
laser transparencies with reasonable success (Some problems with
pinholes and patterns) on a Lexmark office laser (Optra R+) under
Linux.  I've also tried a Epson Stylus 860 which is amazingly good at
solid, perfectly black printouts with the density in Gutenprint set to
4.0 like you detail on your web page.  Without that density there are
very noticeable lines between each horizontal line since it doesn't
put out quite enough ink to fill it in. This is with Apollo inkjet
transparencies: CG7039-20, using the "premium glossy photo paper"
setting.  I'm using Epson cartridges for the moment although it'd be
nice to try something cheaper.

How do you laminate your boards?  That is, what type of laminator,
temperature used, and the method you apply the film to the board.  I
usually spray a mist of water on my boards and then lay the film
across it slowly, letting the water push bubbles and excess water out
at the other end.  I then run it through a pouchless laminator
(Modified with larger input/output slots and a switch to turn the heat
on and off).  The first run through is cold, the second as it's
warming up, the final after the "ready" light is on.  This ensures
there are no bubbles trapped and also pushes bits of scraped-off film
out (the first time through) instead of sticking them to the board.

How do you expose your boards?  I use two U-shaped 25W (?) bug-zapper
florescent bulbs in a side-by-side configuration mounted on fiber
board, about 6 inches away from the board.  My secret for ensuring
perfect contact between my transparency and board is using a
vacuum-sealer pouch with the transparency on top of the oversized
board, held in place by a bit of tape.  After the air is removed
everything is perfectly solid and I don't have to worry about the
negative shifting.  It takes about 6-8 minutes to expose this way.
The vacuum bags are inexpensive enough and you can get a sealer for
around $36 at Walmart.  You can reuse the bags several times,
depending on how careful you are not to poke holes and how big your
boards are.  It helps to have a large piece of thick PCB behind it all
to make sure everything is rigid once the vacuum is applied.

I understand you use the HCl+H2O2+Cu method to etch your boardds.  I
use the same although I've been meaning to try and find some way to
circulate the etchant across the board to speed etching and reduce
undercut.  Someone on the net came up with the idea to use a 1/2-inch
PVC pipe with both ends capped.  You cut angular slots in the part
below the etchant level and then drill holes above where the etchant
is forced out by centrifugal force; you use a motor mounted above the
solution to drive the pipe around although I think you'd need some
type of simple bearing at the other end to stabilize it.  At one point
I was using a small "pond pump" which was really nothing more than a
sealed assembly with a tubular magnet that was mounted to drive a
plastic piece with vanes on it.  It worked very well until I left it
in the solution for a couple weeks and the glue holding the magnet to
the vane disintegrated (the magnet got kind of crumbly too).

Thanks-
Larry

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by DJ Delorie

"Larry Battraw" <lbattraw@...> writes:
> Do you have a detailed description of your process, end-to-end?

Not really.

> How do you make your transparencies?  You mentioned you use Silkjet
> but what type of printer do you use at what DPI?  Do you use the
> manufacturer's ink or refilled/third-party ink?

It's an Epson R280 at 2880x2880 dpi.  It goes to 5760x2880 but the
software prefers a 1:1 aspect ratio.  I'm using the Epson "claria"
ink, black.  I haven't tried the other colors yet.

So far, I've used Silkjet and Jetstar regular with equal results.  I
just got some Jetstar Premium but haven't had a chance to test it yet.

You have to use the correct side of the paper, too.

> I've also tried a Epson Stylus 860 which is amazingly good at
> solid, perfectly black printouts with the density in Gutenprint set to
> 4.0 like you detail on your web page.

Yup, the 4.0 setting pretty much forces each image pixel to become an
ink drop, giving you a really dark image.  You need the special paper
for that, else it bleeds all over the place.

> How do you laminate your boards?

I'm using Adam's wet-lamination technique:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html

My laminator is too hot for the film I've got.

The only thing I do different is, when I've got the transparency over
everything, I hold it firmly with one hand and squeegue *hard* with
the other, which pretty much removes all the water.  Then I just need
to squeegee it a little during heating to avoid bubbles.

> How do you expose your boards?

I've built a UV exposure box using LEDs:
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/uvled/

I put the board in the center and balance a pane of glass on it, seems
to be sufficient.  I also have a Stouffer step gauge to ensure I'm
exposing it for the right time.

> It takes about 6-8 minutes to expose this way.

My setup is 5.5 minutes.

> I understand you use the HCl+H2O2+Cu method to etch your boardds.  I
> use the same although I've been meaning to try and find some way to
> circulate the etchant across the board to speed etching and reduce
> undercut.

I got a kit with the tank, heater, air bubbler, and board holder all
pre-gathered.  The air bubbler keeps the solution moving.
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/lab/img_0213.jpg

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-08 by Herbert E. Plett

--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Dylan Smith <dyls@...> wrote:
...
> 
> One day I grabbed the wrong end...
> 

sure you got a lot of teardrops....   (well... not absolutely for free!)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-09 by fana cute

i want to have my own home brew PCB, and sell my product to mass market..
i have try again my method with diazol as photoresist, an baking it yesterday...thats useless...it peel away at ferid clorid for a few  minute

--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Dylan Smith <dyls@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Dylan Smith <dyls@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 4:44 AM










    
            On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, fana cute wrote:



>

> I've done with 8 mil track, good result after ironing, but some of track

> are disappear after etching...i etched in feric clorid at 70 C, almost 5

> minute.. By the way what do you think about this method? are this method

> match if i want to sell my product(PCB) to mass market ? with the great

> number?



The method's great for one-offs or perhaps producing a couple of PCBs. I

wouldn't dream of using it for more than that - it's just too

time consuming, and sometimes I have to fix the odd broken track due to a

pin hole.



If you're wanting to make a board in quantity, it's best to use a

commercial PCB maker. I've used Olimex for doing two-off Eurocard sized

boards (double sided), the results were good, and I used PCB Cart to make

10 4-layer boards - their prices were very good, the boards were

electrically tested, and the quality is excellent. People I know have used

PCB Train, and have lots of good things to say about them - they also do

include electrical testing on boards of 4 layers and more.




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

2008-07-09 by Markus Zingg

This statement is mutually exclusive.

Markus

fana cute schrieb:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> i want to have my own home brew PCB, and sell my product to mass market..
>

Re: etched 5/5 results

2008-07-09 by Richard Mustakos

I don't remember  why I learned this, and I'm sure it is bad for them, but whenever I use an iron or soldering iron, when I am done,and it is unplugged, I cool it in water until I can touch it.  I may be paranoid, but they are out to get me!   ;^)

Richard

 
  -------------- Original message from Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com: --------------




Re: etched 5/5 results              Posted by:      "Leon"            leon355@...                                       leon_heller                             Tue Jul 8, 2008 2:28 am        (PDT)        
Show quoted textHide quoted text
            ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dylan Smith" <dyls@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] etched 5/5 results

> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Bertho Boman wrote:
>
>> Herbert,
>> That is the funniest in a long time!!!!!!!!
>
> Don't laugh, I've done it. Well, I was 17 at the time, didn't have a stand
> for the soldering iron so used to hook it to the radiator beside me. I'd
> pick the soldering iron up off the radiator without looking.
>
> One day I grabbed the wrong end...
>
> I got a proper stand after that.

My Metcal has very easy to change cartridges, they just pull out. A special 
heat-resistant pad is provided that attaches to the cable but I forgot to 
use it once and tried to remove the cartridge just after I'd switched the 
unit off. Ouch!

Leon

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etched 5/5 results

2008-07-10 by Stefan Trethan

On 7/10/08, Richard Mustakos <rmustakos@...> wrote:
> I don't remember  why I learned this, and I'm sure it is bad for them, but whenever I use an iron or soldering iron, when I am done,and it is unplugged, I cool it in water until I can touch it.  I may be paranoid, but they are out to get me!   ;^)
>
>  Richard

It sure is bad for them.
Once the tip coating is broken, it's gone. Your hand will heal just fine ;-)

No, seriously, just use a proper stand and it's dealt with.

ST

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