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PCB EDM (again!)

PCB EDM (again!)

2008-04-26 by curt_rxr

Hi all,

When this list first started, I posted about my attempts to turn an HP
Deskjet into an EDM machine for PCBs, but I abandoned the project
after Stefan and others developed toner transfer into a reliable
system.  The EDM was just too slow compared to TT.  I've moved on to a
modified Xerox Phaser printer that puts wax directly on a thin sheets
of epoxy PCB and allows me to 'print' my board and etch it rapidly.

I know that Graham and others kept up the work on EDM and I was
wondering if anyone on the list had made any breakthroughs?   I still
think that there must be a way to reliably generate pulses fast enough
to create a PCB in a reasonable time, especially if a drill head was
incorporated to allow drilling and 'etching' with one setup.

Curt

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB EDM (again!)

2008-04-27 by Herbert E. Plett

--- On Sat, 4/26/08, curt_rxr <curt_rxr@...> wrote:
...
> I've moved on to a
> modified Xerox Phaser printer that puts wax directly on a
> thin sheets
> of epoxy PCB and allows me to 'print' my board and
> etch it rapidly.
> 

is this modification/process "proprietary"? or can you share it? (please)



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Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-04-28 by curt_rxr

> ...
> > I've moved on to a
> > modified Xerox Phaser printer that puts wax directly on a
> > thin sheets
> > of epoxy PCB and allows me to 'print' my board and
> > etch it rapidly.
> > 
> 
> is this modification/process "proprietary"? or can you share it? 

Hi Herbert,

The original idea came from a subscriber to the list who was IIRC an
EE professor at Oregon or Washington and posted his procedure for
making  printed circuit boards using a Xerox Phaser solid ink printer.
 It's in the archives, but the 'gotcha' is that the cheapest Xerox
solid ink printer starts at $2400!   I found one a year later for $50
at a business closing and remembered the post.  The only mods needed
are are to trim a little plastic to make the 'paper' path for the PCB
easier and I imagine the mods would be specific to each type of machine.

The solid ink holds up really well with Adam's CuCL etching system.
All I do is scrub the copper with Cameo copper cleaner before printing
and then etch.  The board is done in about half a hour.

If you look for Xerox Phaser printers make sure you are looking at a
solid ink printer as Xerox sells some low priced laser printers under
the Phaser name.

Curt

RES: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-04 by Alexandre Guimarães

Hi, Curt.

	I could not find in the archives the schematics of the power supply
you used for the EDM process.. Could you post it ? Could more "cutting"
heads be used in paralell to speed up the process ? It seems to be a very
"clean" way to make the pcbs. I would be interested in continue
experimenting with EDM for pcb making !
 
Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes
 

-----Mensagem original-----
De: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Em
nome de curt_rxr
Enviada em: sábado, 26 de abril de 2008 13:14
Para: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB EDM (again!)

Hi all,

When this list first started, I posted about my attempts to turn an HP
Deskjet into an EDM machine for PCBs, but I abandoned the project after
Stefan and others developed toner transfer into a reliable system.  The EDM
was just too slow compared to TT.  I've moved on to a modified Xerox Phaser
printer that puts wax directly on a thin sheets of epoxy PCB and allows me
to 'print' my board and etch it rapidly.

I know that Graham and others kept up the work on EDM and I was
wondering if anyone on the list had made any breakthroughs?   I still
think that there must be a way to reliably generate pulses fast enough to
create a PCB in a reasonable time, especially if a drill head was
incorporated to allow drilling and 'etching' with one setup.

Curt


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Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by ralucas4277

Hi Curt,

After your previously posted details of your system, I carried out some 
more tests on pcb spark erosion. What became immediately clear was the 
requirement for an accurate wire feed for the electrode.

I put together a mall stepper driven wire roller feed mechanism, using 
a gearbox and a butchered capstan mechanism from an old tape recorder, 
with fixed orifices above and below the vertical roller wire drive, 
thus giving the step in/out for the spark initiation. This worked using 
10 mil wire, (smaller dia wires are more difficult to source easily in 
small quantities in the UK, if anyone knows better, please let me 
know), but the need for a more precision unit was needed, and other 
things intervened. I bought a micro lathe intending to put together a 
higher precision unit. A servo motor rather than a stepper may give a 
speed increase.

The reason that I still intend to develop this system, is that direct 
printing is, as far as I can tell, still a bit of a black art, (and I 
never really got toner transfer to work reliably 100% of the time), the 
inks are expensive to import to the UK, you still need to etch, and you 
have to modify a printer anyway.

PCB EDM can eliminate these costs at the expense of speed, whilst 
simultaneously using a mini cnc for drilling and etching.

If the feed wire mechanism can be made to work at reasonable speed, I 
think that the next bottleneck would be the turn on/off times of the 
spark controlling mosfets. I thought that this could be overcome by 
using multiple spark generators sequentially fired, if necessary.

Of course, the whole thing may be constrained by the speed of the cnc 
machine used, but then this whole approach is not really a problem when 
the machine could run in the background unattended. Speed is as 
Einstein pointed out relative anyway.

I intend to do some more development this summer. Is anyone else 
interested in this approach, do you think?

Good to hear you still have an interest in the method.

Roger


 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "curt_rxr" <curt_rxr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi all,
> 
> When this list first started, I posted about my attempts to turn an HP
> Deskjet into an EDM machine for PCBs, but I abandoned the project
> after Stefan and others developed toner transfer into a reliable
> system.  The EDM was just too slow compared to TT.  I've moved on to a
> modified Xerox Phaser printer that puts wax directly on a thin sheets
> of epoxy PCB and allows me to 'print' my board and etch it rapidly.
> 
> I know that Graham and others kept up the work on EDM and I was
> wondering if anyone on the list had made any breakthroughs?   I still
> think that there must be a way to reliably generate pulses fast enough
> to create a PCB in a reasonable time, especially if a drill head was
> incorporated to allow drilling and 'etching' with one setup.
> 
> Curt
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by KeepIt SimpleStupid

--- ralucas4277 <ralucas4277@...> wrote:

> Hi Curt,
> 
> After your previously posted details of your system,
> I carried out some 
> more tests on pcb spark erosion. What became
> immediately clear was the 
> requirement for an accurate wire feed for the
> electrode.
> 
> I put together a mall stepper driven wire roller
> feed mechanism, using 
> a gearbox and a butchered capstan mechanism from an
> old tape recorder, 
> with fixed orifices above and below the vertical
> roller wire drive, 
> thus giving the step in/out for the spark
> initiation. This worked using 
> 10 mil wire, (smaller dia wires are more difficult
> to source easily in 
> small quantities in the UK, if anyone knows better,
> please let me 
> know), but the need for a more precision unit was
> needed, and other 
> things intervened. I bought a micro lathe intending
> to put together a 
> higher precision unit. A servo motor rather than a
> stepper may give a 
> speed increase.
> 

In the US small quantities of

1 mil stainless, 5 mil tungsten and 5 mil tantalum are
easily sourced at www.smallparts.com.  Search for "wire".


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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by Cristian

>
>I intend to do some more development this summer. Is anyone else
>interested in this approach, do you think?
>
>Good to hear you still have an interest in the method.
>
>Roger

I'm interested too.
I owe a Bungard's CNC (drill/mill) and, as I'm an electronics 
engineer, I can do some
electronics to help you.
Cristian

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by Cristian

>
>I put together a mall stepper driven wire roller feed mechanism, using
>a gearbox and a butchered capstan mechanism from an old tape recorder,
>with fixed orifices above and below the vertical roller wire drive,

Why not use horizontal wire movement? You can use the CNC to drive it.
Cristian

Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by javaguy11111

If you have not already come across this group, you may find it
helpful for EDM experimentation. 

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EDMHomeBuilders/

I bought a copy of the moderators book on homebrew edm and it is very
good. Several people have built his design and have pictures in the
photo section. I hope to build one of my own at some point , but not
for pcb edm purposes.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ralucas4277" <ralucas4277@...>
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Curt,
> 
> After your previously posted details of your system, I carried out some 
> more tests on pcb spark erosion. What became immediately clear was the 
> requirement for an accurate wire feed for the electrode.
> 
> I put together a mall stepper driven wire roller feed mechanism, using 
> a gearbox and a butchered capstan mechanism from an old tape recorder, 
> with fixed orifices above and below the vertical roller wire drive, 
> thus giving the step in/out for the spark initiation. This worked using 
> 10 mil wire, (smaller dia wires are more difficult to source easily in 
> small quantities in the UK, if anyone knows better, please let me 
> know), but the need for a more precision unit was needed, and other 
> things intervened. I bought a micro lathe intending to put together a 
> higher precision unit. A servo motor rather than a stepper may give a 
> speed increase.
> 
> The reason that I still intend to develop this system, is that direct 
> printing is, as far as I can tell, still a bit of a black art, (and I 
> never really got toner transfer to work reliably 100% of the time), the 
> inks are expensive to import to the UK, you still need to etch, and you 
> have to modify a printer anyway.
> 
> PCB EDM can eliminate these costs at the expense of speed, whilst 
> simultaneously using a mini cnc for drilling and etching.
> 
> If the feed wire mechanism can be made to work at reasonable speed, I 
> think that the next bottleneck would be the turn on/off times of the 
> spark controlling mosfets. I thought that this could be overcome by 
> using multiple spark generators sequentially fired, if necessary.
> 
> Of course, the whole thing may be constrained by the speed of the cnc 
> machine used, but then this whole approach is not really a problem when 
> the machine could run in the background unattended. Speed is as 
> Einstein pointed out relative anyway.
> 
> I intend to do some more development this summer. Is anyone else 
> interested in this approach, do you think?
> 
> Good to hear you still have an interest in the method.
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "curt_rxr" <curt_rxr@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > When this list first started, I posted about my attempts to turn an HP
> > Deskjet into an EDM machine for PCBs, but I abandoned the project
> > after Stefan and others developed toner transfer into a reliable
> > system.  The EDM was just too slow compared to TT.  I've moved on to a
> > modified Xerox Phaser printer that puts wax directly on a thin sheets
> > of epoxy PCB and allows me to 'print' my board and etch it rapidly.
> > 
> > I know that Graham and others kept up the work on EDM and I was
> > wondering if anyone on the list had made any breakthroughs?   I still
> > think that there must be a way to reliably generate pulses fast enough
> > to create a PCB in a reasonable time, especially if a drill head was
> > incorporated to allow drilling and 'etching' with one setup.
> > 
> > Curt
> >
>

Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by ralucas4277

Cristian,

Horizontal would not work using the cnc axis as a wire feed (as far as 
I can see anyway), since the wire is consumed in the erosion process, 
the roller feed also automatically compensates for the loss of 
electrode. Also, how would you submerge the electrode and workpiece in 
the dielectric?

Your offer of electronics design could be helpful. I will dig out my 
work and review it.

Roger

>
> 
> >
> >I put together a mall stepper driven wire roller feed mechanism, 
using
> >a gearbox and a butchered capstan mechanism from an old tape 
recorder,
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >with fixed orifices above and below the vertical roller wire drive,
> 
> Why not use horizontal wire movement? You can use the CNC to drive it.
> Cristian
>

Re: PCB EDM (again!)

2008-05-07 by Andrew

> javaguy11111 wrote:
>
> If you have not already come across this
> group, you may find it helpful for EDM
> experimentation. 
>
> <SNIP>

I am more than happy doing PCB photo-etch
but am very interested in PCB EDM anyways
(EDM it is just gosh darn interesting)

Two alternate yahoo groups for EDM stuff
are

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomeBrewEDM/

and 

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/EDM_CNC/

The first of the two has just recently
started as people where getting upset at
the discussion of non RC/relaxation-oscilaltor
machines on the group intended as support for
that book on EDM.

All input is welcome over there.

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