Homebrew PCBs

Here's one interesting article:

http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611

I think it could be simplified for hombrew applications.

Marko

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Marko Pavlin <mp@...> wrote:
>
> Here's one interesting article:
> 
> http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611
> 
> I think it could be simplified for hombrew applications.
> 
> Marko
>
It appears to me the laser diode in a blu ray player might work fine
for this application. The output is 405nm which is closer to UV than
blue and is the same value as the uv leds that folks have been making
into exposure units. HD-dvd players are dirt cheap now. And there is
an occaisonal sale of the bluray laser and sled for a ps3 on fleabay
for about 50 bucks if I recall.
keith

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "klmjr22" <keithlmartin@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Marko Pavlin <mp@> wrote:
> >
> > Here's one interesting article:
> > 
> > http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611
> > 
> > I think it could be simplified for hombrew applications.
> > 
> > Marko
> >
> It appears to me the laser diode in a blu ray player might work fine
> for this application. The output is 405nm which is closer to UV than
> blue and is the same value as the uv leds that folks have been 
making
> into exposure units. HD-dvd players are dirt cheap now. And there is
> an occaisonal sale of the bluray laser and sled for a ps3 on fleabay
> for about 50 bucks if I recall.
> keith
>

Hi, that is very interesting. I noticed that link on SMTNet 
newsletter this morning too.

I currently have a home-made xy table that I'm using with a CO2 
laser. I'm using PLT files and Dancam software to drive it. The laser 
is fixed and the xy table moves the workpiece around. Maybe I could 
attach a laser diode to do exposure.

Anthony
FPGA videos www.burched.com Soldering www.supersolderingsecrets.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Marko Pavlin"

Here's one interesting article:

http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611

I think it could be simplified for hombrew applications.

Marko

------------------------------------
They 're using a 9mW laser scanning at 1m/s. I assume it is single pass. 
Laser printers are normally 0.3 to 0.5 mW but scan at a much higher speed.

They're scanning in both X and Y axis. Printers only scan in the X axis.

To do this with a laser printer you would have to use a huge laser or make 
it multi pass.

Photo etching was an extension of existing photographic techniques of the 
time. This project is trying to be an extension of existing photo etching 
techniques.

I think it is time to re-think the design of the wheel.

Rather than substituting a new exposure technique we should be re-designing 
the process chemicals so the direct laser printing is a part of the 
development process and not just the exposure process.

At 04:31 AM 4/17/2008, you wrote:

>--- In 
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, 
>"klmjr22" <keithlmartin@...>
>wrote:
> >
> > --- In 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, 
> Marko Pavlin <mp@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's one interesting article:
> > >
> > > 
> <http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611>http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611
> > >

That method is way too complicate.
For 5 to 10K Euro (R&D price for one piece) you can get a 0.1mm 
diameter, collimated, 405nm (diode based) laser,  small enough to be mounted
on the tool head of a CNC drill/mill Machine.
Drill, expose, etch.
Cristian 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Marko Pavlin <mp@...> wrote:
>
> Here's one interesting article:
> 
> http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611
> 
> I think it could be simplified for hombrew applications.
> 
> Marko
>


This is pretty cool all right. Someone here a while back had the idea
of putting a UV diode on a plotter for direct exposing. Almost the
same idea but with with University $$$, a much better 'diode' is used
here.  Very cool though and impressive results.

I had an old HP7221 plotter way back (actually had a big electrostatic
table to hold the paper and then it moved the pen in both x & y
directions ... really fun to watch :-) ). I finally parted with it
when I got a new 'better' plotter.  Wish I had kept it now, would have
been perfect for trying something like this. A UV diode with a simple
lens would make a fine point and have enough concentration of the
energy to expose the mask on a slow draw rate I bet. You know, it
would be easy enough to test on a simple x/y machinists vise. Just fix
the diode with lens over a board and crank by hand to draw a test
trace ... or even just pulling the board under the diode by hand would
give a good idea of the drawing speed needed and if it works.

Phil
KA0HBG

Has anyone seen the VersaLaser system featured on Revision3's Systm?  It's
somewhat pricey for a hobbyist (~$7,000 for a base model), but it's
definitely got potential!  It comes with Windows print drivers and works
with a variety of graphics and CAD programs.  I don't see why it couldn't be
used to burn off portions of etch resist on a coated blank board.  It offers
quite a bit of resolution depending on the optics installed, and it can be
used for engraving and cutting all sorts of materials: it should work for
our purposes.

 

http://revision3.com/systm/versalaser2/?autoplay=true

 

Regards,

 

 

Paul Symansky

 

Biology

A&S 2009

954.478.7285

http://www.symtechlabs.com

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Symansky" <symansky@...> 
wrote:
>
> Has anyone seen the VersaLaser system featured on Revision3's 
Systm?  It's
> somewhat pricey for a hobbyist (~$7,000 for a base model), but it's
> definitely got potential!  It comes with Windows print drivers and 
works
> with a variety of graphics and CAD programs.  I don't see why it 
couldn't be
> used to burn off portions of etch resist on a coated blank board.  
It offers
> quite a bit of resolution depending on the optics installed, and it 
can be
> used for engraving and cutting all sorts of materials: it should 
work for
> our purposes.
> 
>  
> 
> http://revision3.com/systm/versalaser2/?autoplay=true
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Paul Symansky
> 
>  
> 
> Biology
> 
> A&S 2009
> 
> 954.478.7285
> 
> http://www.symtechlabs.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I hope Santa will put one under the tree this Christmas.

BTW, that a Coomodore PET computer image used in the web ad.  :0

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Symansky" <symansky@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone seen the VersaLaser system featured on Revision3's Systm?
 It's
> somewhat pricey for a hobbyist (~$7,000 for a base model), but it's
> definitely got potential!  It comes with Windows print drivers and works
> with a variety of graphics and CAD programs.  I don't see why it
couldn't be
> used to burn off portions of etch resist on a coated blank board. 
It offers
> quite a bit of resolution depending on the optics installed, and it
can be
> used for engraving and cutting all sorts of materials: it should
work for
> our purposes.
> 
>  
> 
> http://revision3.com/systm/versalaser2/?autoplay=true
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Paul Symansky
> 
>  
> 
> Biology
> 
> A&S 2009
> 
> 954.478.7285
> 
> http://www.symtechlabs.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
In the video the rep says do say that you "can't cut metal" with it. 
Obviously, he means metal plate of some sort, but I wonder just what
it can do?  can it effectively vaporize 1/2 oz. copper on FR4?  1 oz.?

I also wonder what actual feature size the device can resolve.  I
suppose that it depends a lot on the reflectivity of the material and
how well the system can clear copper vapor.

-- Dave

Lots of questions...

What size features can you cut?  What kind of separation?  Do you know
the spot size your laser can produce?  What is the approximate power
output?

Is it better to use a stepped x/y arrangement for the head moving over
a fixed target plane?  That would be easy enough to do with a diode
source, but may be unwieldy with a CO2 laser.  With the CO2 source a
moving target plane might be a better solution.  Or is it worth the
effort & expense to use a reflected beam with mirror movement
controlled by a galvanometer arrangement as is used in some medical
film scanners?

--Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tonyburch2001" <tony@...> wrote:
...

> Hi, that is very interesting. I noticed that link on SMTNet 
> newsletter this morning too.
> 
> I currently have a home-made xy table that I'm using with a CO2 
> laser. I'm using PLT files and Dancam software to drive it. The laser 
> is fixed and the xy table moves the workpiece around. Maybe I could 
> attach a laser diode to do exposure.
> 
> Anthony
> FPGA videos www.burched.com Soldering www.supersolderingsecrets.com
>

Although I havn't worked with the Versalaser, I have worked with an Epilog Summit 50W CO2 laser, and seen several models produced by both Epilog and Universal, and all have had the laser fixed to a side/corner, and used mirrors to get the beam to their target. It's actually a simple arrangement. In the Summit, the laser shines upwards into a 45° mirror making the beam shine towards the front. A carrige slides front to back, and at the right side there is a mirror redirecting the beam left towards the lens assembly.  On top the lens assembley is another 45° mirror directing the beam downward into the lenses, towards the target. In the lens stack, there is a rotatable piece to select 300 or 600 DPI optics. For some materials, the "wrong" optics are used to provide better results (either  more blending with the 300DPI optics, or deeper/hotter cuts with the 600DPI ones.)

-----Original Message-----
From: "pork_u_pine2000" <wittend@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 20/4/18 (Fri) PM 09:50
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Interesting article (direct laser printing, well... kind of)

Lots of questions...

What size features can you cut?  What kind of separation?  Do you know
the spot size your laser can produce?  What is the approximate power
output?

Is it better to use a stepped x/y arrangement for the head moving over
a fixed target plane?  That would be easy enough to do with a diode
source, but may be unwieldy with a CO2 laser.  With the CO2 source a
moving target plane might be a better solution.  Or is it worth the
effort & expense to use a reflected beam with mirror movement
controlled by a galvanometer arrangement as is used in some medical
film scanners?

--Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tonyburch2001" <tony@...> wrote:
...

> Hi, that is very interesting. I noticed that link on SMTNet 
> newsletter this morning too.
> 
> I currently have a home-made xy table that I'm using with a CO2 
> laser. I'm using PLT files and Dancam software to drive it. The laser 
> is fixed and the xy table moves the workpiece around. Maybe I could 
> attach a laser diode to do exposure.
> 
> Anthony
> FPGA videos www.burched.com Soldering www.supersolderingsecrets.com
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <listgroups08@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marko Pavlin"
> 
> Here's one interesting article:
> 
> http://www.smtnet.com/adsystem/redir.cfm?adid=1611
> 
> I think it could be simplified for hombrew applications.
> 
> Marko
> 
> ------------------------------------
> They 're using a 9mW laser scanning at 1m/s. I assume it is single
pass. 
> Laser printers are normally 0.3 to 0.5 mW but scan at a much higher
speed.
> 
> They're scanning in both X and Y axis. Printers only scan in the X axis.
> 
> To do this with a laser printer you would have to use a huge laser
or make 
> it multi pass.
> 
> Photo etching was an extension of existing photographic techniques
of the 
> time. This project is trying to be an extension of existing photo
etching 
> techniques.
> 
> I think it is time to re-think the design of the wheel.
> 
> Rather than substituting a new exposure technique we should be
re-designing 
> the process chemicals so the direct laser printing is a part of the 
> development process and not just the exposure process.
>

One way to 'reinvent' ways to process boards is to use additive
technologies rather than subtractive techniques currently employed. 
Off the top of my head: directly print the circuit onto the substrate
or modify the surface of the substrate such that only certain areas
can have deposits of conductive metal. I don't have any references
within easy reach but there a number of techniques in development.

I am not sure if anyone other than academia and industry are working
on such developments. Of course, a distillation of such a technique
inn cheap hack form would turn heads on this and other forums I am sure.

Joseph

With the talk of using direct laser exposure and tearing apart a DVD writer,
flip the concept:

Make a coated PCB the size of the DVD and stick it into an off-the-shelf DVD
writer.  The rest is software.....

Bertho

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Last year we bought ink jet priner for printing "any material" and it's 
not cheap. Definetly not a typical "homebrew" price. Anyway, it can 
print any material like conductive, resistive or dielectric layers. We 
print on ceramic (alumina) substrate, which finally requires fireing at 
860°C, which is (again) not really homebrew task. There's many obstacles....

M.


>
> One way to 'reinvent' ways to process boards is to use additive
> technologies rather than subtractive techniques currently employed.
> Off the top of my head: directly print the circuit onto the substrate
> or modify the surface of the substrate such that only certain areas
> can have deposits of conductive metal. I don't have any references
> within easy reach but there a number of techniques in development.
>
> I am not sure if anyone other than academia and industry are working
> on such developments. Of course, a distillation of such a technique
> inn cheap hack form would turn heads on this and other forums I am sure.
>
> Joseph
>
>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:49 AM 4/21/2008, you wrote:

>Last year we bought ink jet priner for printing "any material" and it's
>not cheap. Definetly not a typical "homebrew" price. Anyway, it can
>print any material like conductive, resistive or dielectric layers. We
>print on ceramic (alumina) substrate, which finally requires fireing at
>860°C, which is (again) not really homebrew task. There's many obstacles....

Is that an useful information for us? What model, what ink, what price?
Cristian 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]