Homebrew_PCBs

----- Original Message -----
From: "adam Seychell" <adam_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:27 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Pivoting drill press


> Hi
>
> I've taken some pictures of my new PCB drilling machine, and
> made them available online at
> http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/drill_MkII.html
>
> Hope the pictures don't take too long to load.
>
> The machine has virtually come straight from the workshop
> and I've yet to use it for PCB production. When I start
> using it I'll find all the problems and most probably will
> be making alterations. One feature I'm thinking of adding is
> laser diode pointer for guiding the hole location on the
> PCB. I've never fiddled around with visible laser diodes.
> Does anyone know if those cheapy red laser diode modules be
> any good for this ?

You don't get a nice round spot with them.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon_heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

> Hi
>
> I've taken some pictures of my new PCB drilling machine, and
> made them available online at
> http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/drill_MkII.html
>
> Hope the pictures don't take too long to load.
>
> The machine has virtually come straight from the workshop
> and I've yet to use it for PCB production. When I start
> using it I'll find all the problems and most probably will
> be making alterations.

>
>
> Looks like a laminate-cutter motor. I'm putting one of those on
> my x-y machine.
>

>
> Russell Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>>Looks like a laminate-cutter motor. I'm putting one of those on
>>my x-y machine.
>>
>
> The motor is a Bosch die grinder (model gss27), 27000 RPM.
> i.e. you normally put a stone or carbide die in the collet
> and grind away at metal or whatever. I guess you could use
> them for a wood cutter. Are you using the exact same motor
> in your x-y machine ?

> I haven't got a motor yet. I was thinking of using a cheapy
> motor to drive my own shaft with lower slop bearings.

>
>
> Russell Shaw wrote:
>> I haven't got a motor yet. I was thinking of using a cheapy
>> motor to drive my own shaft with lower slop bearings.
>
> Lowest cost I've seen would be something like the trimmers/die grinders
> you were looking at. That's the first time I've heard of trimmers. The
> trimmers seem more suited because they have better mounting assembly
> attached to them. The die grinders are designed to be held by hand. The
> die grinder I got has a round part on the end for mounting. Stefan
> mentioned a Proxxon was also a very well made motor, but don't know who
> sells them in Australia. The Bosch GSS27 I got was about AUD$240, I'd
> expect all these motors to be around the same price range (AUD$240 ~
> $340). The AUD$100 Dremal kit would be a complete waste of money for a
> cnc. These are all industrial type tools, so you may not find them next
> to handyman stuff.
>
>

On Sun, 2003-06-15 at 00:27, adam Seychell wrote:

> Hi
>
> I've taken some pictures of my new PCB drilling machine, and
> made them available online at
> http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/drill_MkII.html
>
> Hope the pictures don't take too long to load.
>
> The machine has virtually come straight from the workshop
> and I've yet to use it for PCB production. When I start
> using it I'll find all the problems and most probably will
> be making alterations. One feature I'm thinking of adding is
> laser diode pointer for guiding the hole location on the
> PCB. I've never fiddled around with visible laser diodes.
> Does anyone know if those cheapy red laser diode modules be
> any good for this ?
>
> Adam
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hi
>
> I've taken some pictures of my new PCB drilling machine, and
> made them available online at
> http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/drill_MkII.html
>
> Hope the pictures don't take too long to load.
>
> The machine has virtually come straight from the workshop
> and I've yet to use it for PCB production. When I start
> using it I'll find all the problems and most probably will
> be making alterations. One feature I'm thinking of adding is
> laser diode pointer for guiding the hole location on the
> PCB. I've never fiddled around with visible laser diodes.
> Does anyone know if those cheapy red laser diode modules be
> any good for this ?
>
> Adam

> I used a PCB drill at one time that had an optical setup, like a
> scope with crosshairs. It had a big "scope" to see the crosshairs

> the pad.
> You can do a similar thing by placing a small video camera under
> where the drill bit will do its thing. BY looking a t a video

> you can precisely position the PCB under the bit.
>
> Even the laser would have to be off-axis and wouldn't be accurate.
> Any pointer located at the top of the PCB would have to be off-axis
> or it would be in the way of the drill.
>
> Nice work.
>
> JOhn M...
> =============

>

>
> a) a good bearing. the really cheap devices only put a short shaft with a
> thread on a standard motor.
> thus only using the bearings of the motor. please make your own opinion on
> that ;-).
>
> b) PRECISION work of shaft and collars.
> the cheap grinders i have here are all no precision work.
> the bit is not centered very good, thus it will break more easily.

> the proxxon precision is fascinating.
> the collars are very strong material (hardened - very springy).
> they are ground very exactly, also the shaft is ground.
> they are shaped so that they are always centered.
> proxxon knows this, they advertise this a lot....
>
> i have inspected other tools (dremel etc) at the stores here also.
> they have even aluminium collars, far from precision..
>

> i also think the thick throat is no help in using it (the proxxon has a
> longer narrower).
> for me it looks like a chopped of angle grinder ;-).
> but sure for pcb it would be fine too.
>
>
> (the disadvantage of powerful motors (more than 100 watts) would be
> noise... you don't need much power in pcm drilling)

> *** 2) adams new press:
>
> hey adam what are you doing?
> i really thought you are telling me for weeks now that a triangular arm
> would be better.

> i thought of placing the back bearing on the two outer edges. this should
> prevent the unit
> from sideways clearance at the front.
> i thought this because your first unit needed a guidance bearing in the
> middle of the arm to stabilize.

> it there no clearng with the new tapered bearings??

> maybe i will try it anyways with the thrust bearings and triangular setup.
> i found two of them finally now when i searched for tapered roller bearings
> ;-).
> i had them at home all the time.....

> maybe it would get even more stable if i add two normal ball bearings on
> the sides...
> so each direction is blocked from any slight clearance.

> have you tested it already?
> is the lenght of the arm still no problem? (difference between tangent
> movement and straight)
>

> @adam on more question to tapered roller bearings:
>
> are they "encased" by the bearing shells like thrust bearings?
> so that they are ready to use?
> i saw some on the web but they had the case rings like standard ball
> bearings.
> so it is difficult to mount them by plates at the side.
> the angle of the rollers was only a few degrees off parallel to the axle.
> which one do you have?
> maybe i'm looking for the wrong type - are your bearings similar to thrust
> bearings?


> which angle has the center of the rollers?
> are they more parallel to the axle or more in a right angle to it?

> Adam,
>
> I like your drilling machine. If you flipped it over and put an
> optical scope and air clamping foot on it you would have almost the
> same machine John is referring to. There were several manufacturers
> of these machines with the most popular one made by Excellon. It was
> a Uni-Drill model 1230. The actually came with a stylus assembly for
> template drilling and the optical scope was optional but almost
> everyone bought the scope.
>
> They use a Precise #65 spindle with a variac speed control. You can
> still find these machines if you look hard enough but many of them
> went to the dump which is a shame.

>
>
> twb8899 wrote:
> > Adam,
> >
> > I like your drilling machine. If you flipped it over and put an
> > optical scope and air clamping foot on it you would have almost

> > same machine John is referring to. There were several

> > of these machines with the most popular one made by Excellon. It

> > a Uni-Drill model 1230. The actually came with a stylus assembly

> > template drilling and the optical scope was optional but almost
> > everyone bought the scope.
> >
> > They use a Precise #65 spindle with a variac speed control. You

> > still find these machines if you look hard enough but many of

> > went to the dump which is a shame.
>
> That would be a sore sight. Although I can understand many
> professionals simply have no use for a manual drill machine. I've
> heard the stories about the PCB business going through a rapid
> change in 1980's, even here in Australia. One business man told
> me the only places who survived were the ones who could get the
> new and automated processes working the quickest. This guy's
> business specializes in low volume, DS PTH, aimed at a lower cost
> solution for prototyping. He knew of PCB fabricator that went
> under, simply because they had reliability problems in the new
> plated through hole line.
>
> Unfortunately I haven't seen any of the drill machines here in
> Australia. I'd be very interested just looking how they are
> built. How was drill feed operated ? Was this foot pedal control
> or more elegant motor drive feed or hydraulics ? For quick
> experiment I attached a bike brake cable to the arm on my
> machine, hoping to operated the down feed by pulling the cable.
> It turns out there is far too much friction in the cable and you
> loose the "feel" and fine control of the drilling.
>
> What is an "air clamping foot" ?
>
> I'm imagining foot control would make drilling a lot easier
> because it gives you two hands to position the PCB for drilling.
>
> Adam

> Adam,
>
> The Excellon Uni-Drill uses a dc motor and lead screw to move the
> spindle up and down. There is a series of adjustable limit switches
> to set the travel distance. The air operated clamping "foot" is
> between the optical scope and table surface and clamps the board
> before drilling to prevent movement that would break drill bits.
>
> When the foot switch is depressed the pressure foot clamps the board,
> spindle travels upward, drills through the panel, drill retracts and
> the clamp releases. You can watch the drill bit come through the
> board in the screen.
>
> The Nawide and Aetna machines use an air/hydraulic spindle feed with
> the feed rate controlled by a needle valve. The Nawide machine is
> very quiet because it has a dc motor and belt driven spindle. Any of
> these machines can also be operated with a stylus and drill template.
> The optical scope is used to make a master template and then the
> stylus is used to "trace" the template pattern and drill the board.
> An experienced operator can drill 80 holes per minute in a stack of
> three boards in the stylus mode. If I'm drilling a single lot
> prototype I just use the scope at about 20 holes per minute.
>
> If there is any interest I will post some photographs of these
> machines which would answer most of your questions. You would be
> impressed with the accuracy of these machines not to mention the ease
> of use and reduction of operator fatigue.
>
> Tom
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
>>
>>twb8899 wrote:
>>
>>>Adam,
>>>
>>>I like your drilling machine. If you flipped it over and put an
>>>optical scope and air clamping foot on it you would have almost
>>
> the
>
>>>same machine John is referring to. There were several
>>
> manufacturers
>
>>>of these machines with the most popular one made by Excellon. It
>>
> was
>
>>>a Uni-Drill model 1230. The actually came with a stylus assembly
>>
> for
>
>>>template drilling and the optical scope was optional but almost
>>>everyone bought the scope.
>>>
>>>They use a Precise #65 spindle with a variac speed control. You
>>
> can
>
>>>still find these machines if you look hard enough but many of
>>
> them
>
>>>went to the dump which is a shame.
>>
>>That would be a sore sight. Although I can understand many
>>professionals simply have no use for a manual drill machine. I've
>>heard the stories about the PCB business going through a rapid
>>change in 1980's, even here in Australia. One business man told
>>me the only places who survived were the ones who could get the
>>new and automated processes working the quickest. This guy's
>>business specializes in low volume, DS PTH, aimed at a lower cost
>>solution for prototyping. He knew of PCB fabricator that went
>>under, simply because they had reliability problems in the new
>>plated through hole line.
>>
>>Unfortunately I haven't seen any of the drill machines here in
>>Australia. I'd be very interested just looking how they are
>>built. How was drill feed operated ? Was this foot pedal control
>>or more elegant motor drive feed or hydraulics ? For quick
>>experiment I attached a bike brake cable to the arm on my
>>machine, hoping to operated the down feed by pulling the cable.
>>It turns out there is far too much friction in the cable and you
>>loose the "feel" and fine control of the drilling.
>>
>>What is an "air clamping foot" ?
>>
>>I'm imagining foot control would make drilling a lot easier
>>because it gives you two hands to position the PCB for drilling.
>>
>>Adam
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> Thanks Tom , that makes it more clear. If its not too much effort, I
> would like to see a few basic pics of the machine you own. With Nawide
> machine having belt drive, what RPM did this run at ? I'm curious, what
> do you think is a "good" RPM for manual drilling around the 0.6mm -
> 1.5mm diameter range ?
>
> I know your talking 100k RPM and above for the very large and expensive
> Excellon CNC production drill machines.
>
> Was it quick to change drill bits on these machines ? My guessing is the
> spindle would feed far upwards so the collet pops up through the flat
> panel giving you access to it.
>
> Adam

>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Pivoting drill press
>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:54:17 +0200
>
>i would guess the 20k rpm achieved by the small hand tool would be enough.
>
>look here:
>http://www.megauk.com/cgi-
>bin/mega/lp.pl?page=http://www.megauk.com/pcb_drilling_machines.php
>they sell everything from dremel scrap to versions of the model you are
>discussing.
>
>i have no idea what cnc drilling machines cost but rather than investing 5k
>pound in one of this optical hand
>operated machines i would try to get a cnc machine.
>
>i was also wondering how such a viewing device can be built, folowing would
>be needed:
>maginifying in the range of 10 or so
>screen necessary, no eyepiece.
>same picture regardless of viewer position, screen alerady ensures this (no
>simple maginifying glass).

> Thanks Tom , that makes it more clear. If its not too much
> effort, I would like to see a few basic pics of the machine you
> own. With Nawide machine having belt drive, what RPM did this run
> at ? I'm curious, what do you think is a "good" RPM for manual
> drilling around the 0.6mm - 1.5mm diameter range ?
>
> I know your talking 100k RPM and above for the very large and
> expensive Excellon CNC production drill machines.
>
> Was it quick to change drill bits on these machines ? My guessing
> is the spindle would feed far upwards so the collet pops up
> through the flat panel giving you access to it.
>
> Adam

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:45:37 -0000, twb8899 <twb8899@...> wrote:

> Adam,
>
> The Nawide delt driven machine has a maximum speed of 30,000 rpm. Speed
> is important but feed rate is more important. Higher speeds allow higher
> feed rates. Do some research on "chip load" which will give you an idea
> of what speeds and feed rates to use. I just adjust the scope drills
> until it "feels right" with highest speeds for small bits and slow speeds
> for big bits. Feed rates are adjusted for minimum drill wander in a scrap
> of material as viewed in the scope. That's another benefit of these
> machines, you can actually watch the bit come through the board and check
> for drill wander which is minimal to begin with.
>
> The Excellon Uni-Drill uses a Precise #65 spindle that will go to 45,000
> rpm and the Aetna Acrodrill uses their own Aetna spindle that runs up to
> 40,000 rpm. The optical scope on the Nawide uses a small prism that
> projects the image onto a screen that has a bombsite reticle. Aetna uses
> a small microscope lens in the scope that projects onto two "first
> surface" mirrors and then to the ground glass screen. These mirrors are
> at 90 degrees to each other for image correction (left-right movement)and
> that assembly is at a 45 degree angle between the lens near the drill bit
> and the screen. Aetna uses a focused lamp and Nawide uses fiber optics
> for illumination.
>
> Excellon had two scope systems, the small one used a lens at the table
> and and a small mirror (looks like a dentit's mirror)to reflect the image
> to a paper screen in the back of the scope housing. It worked but was a
> cheap looking device. Another optional scope was offered that was much
> larger and better with mirrors and a big ground glass screen. I have one
> of these scopes laying around and can provide a photo of it as well.
>
> The best way is to use the right lens with a cheap video camera and
> monitor. Many of these machines were converted to this setup over the
> years. The Excellon scope drills are the easiest to convert to video and
> the Nawide would be most difficult.
>
> BTW, I got one of my Nawide machines for free because no one wanted it.
> My Aetna Acrodrill was purchased for $200 after it sat in a surplus shop
> for almost five years. They said no one knew what it was.
> A guy on eBay had a brand new Electro-Mechano scope drill (just out of
> the crate) and he couldn't get a $500 bid for this $7500 new machine! He
> asked me to make an offer but I didn't need another one and the shipping
> would be way too high for me. These machines can be had for next to
> nothing now days. They can't be beat for prototypes and small volume
> hobby boards. Just keep looking and you will find one for the right
> price.
>
> Tom
>

> thank you for the description of the viewing mechanism.
> i was thinking about how it is made.
>
> but i have one question:
> what advantage has video viewing? i cant find any.
> why should a video image - reduced in resolution etc. be superior

> optical system?
> is the light source to weak to produce a clear projection?
>
> such a machine would be nice but i have absolutely no idea where to

> here in austria.
> i didn't see at ebay any here. also it would be too expensive for

> boards.
>
> regards
> stefan

>i also want to build such a drill myself (i have already bought a eur100
>proxxon motor).

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:38:21 +0200, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

> Stefan
>
>> i also want to build such a drill myself (i have already bought a eur100
>> proxxon motor).
>
> Maybe off topic, but I also bought the drill stand from Proxon, and
> along with head lenses this works fine for my hand - drilling. If I'm
> going to make an effort to make drilling easier, my next stepp will be
> a CNC drilling machine. They are fairly easy to build, realtively
> cheap in the end and - well, do it very prcisely.
>
> Markus
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>i didn't buy the stand.
>the cheap ones they have seem not good quality to me.

>i only bought the ib/e grinder.
>and i really like the tool.
>it is superior to all other minidrill grinder tools i have.
>if the tool runs rock solid centered it is much better to grind, cut, etc.
>also the motor is very powerful and very silent.
>i have a unit which has also 100W but seems to turn that only into heat.

>what i dislike at the ib/e:
>the button for spindle stopping (tool change)
>can be pressed while running, it is at a exposed position.
>this could be done better.

>a cnc machine would be nice but i don't have the tools to make it (and
>don't want to spend too much).

>if i would have to build one i would use linear rails made with ball
>bearings (use 3, one pring loaded with strong spring).
>and for moving i would use metric allthreads and stepper motors.
>for parallel moving of the "bridge" in one direction i would use two
>allthreads, coupled by some toothed belt, chain or so to move
>simultaneously (or two motors - take care that both turn!).
>
>the problem for me would be making the software. i hate making this.
>
>also the mechanic things would be easier if i own a milling machine and a
>lathe, but i don't.

>also i would have to find precise rails which offer three very straight
>sides (like a pipe or so).
>i heard there are extruded aluminium sheaths which are precise enough for
>this but i have no idea if this is true / where to get.
>
>but this is another story....